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There's no shortage of boring cars for those boring people.
GM did not develop Cadillac on Opel/Holden RWD platform because it just does not compare well with sophistication of Mercedes or BMW.
I personally like the Milan, and feel that the Mercury could have been the car to produce, while dumping the Ford line of cars. They do not need Lincoln, and the Mustang could be sold via Mercury by Ford dealerships. Just make the upscale (more bling) Mercury the standard cars. Make Ford trucks as Ford branded. The Mercury, I believe scored better in rear end collisions for whiplash than did the others of the Mazda6 family of cloned cars.
-Loren
-Loren
nobody would get near the car until the special guest, while conversing with someone, put his foot up on the front bumper. after that, all bets were off. there were drinks being set down and spilled all over that car after that.
Have to agree with you, stl. Especially if they're gonna build it in Australia, and import it. I'd be surprised if it turns any heads really, but I'll be one of the first to check it out. Hope they ditch those dumb retro guages! They were fine in the Mustang, because it was a retro car, but we don't need them in every damn Ford they make now...
Please understand I am NOT denigrating women with my comments. Some of my best friends are women - My wife is a woman, so is my daughter and my two granddaughters, and my current dog, so you can see, there is tons of estrogen around my house.
But seriously, Loren: How many "car girls" do you know? I think I know 1. And she researches out every car on the planet before she buys one, and guess what she drives? A BMW. At least 99% of the women I know buy a car based upon color, stereo and looks. They either like the looks of a car, or they think it's ugly, and you can't predict what they'll say. If you find a woman who has spent a few months researching the features, values and specs of a particular car before she buys it, it won't be a Fusion.
Fusions are sold on price, payment, looks and feel. They drive well, if you like sitting in a bathtub, I don't. But seriously, if you are researching all small Sedans available on the planet - other than price, why would you buy the Ford? Or the Malibu? Or the Sebring? Price. If you cared about quality, you'd get the Accord or Camry. If you cared about performance, you'd get the 5er or the E-Class or the S-60. If you wanted reliability and cheap, you'd get the Elantra. If you only wanted the payment, you'd get the Fusion. I don't know why anybody really buys the Milan, not that it's bad, I prefer it to the Fusion too, but nobody knows about them, unless they stumble into a L/M dealership by mistake, or see one on the turntable - mind you, they never will because the sales manager always has a PT Cruiser or Camaro up there he needs to get rid of.
Anyway, that's my experience.
Howard
As for an Australian Ford as Lincoln, what are they thinking now? It could work...if they give it its own body and chassis tuning, and build it here. But importing it? It's one thing to call a car an Opel in one part of the world and a Saturn in another. But can anyone say Merkur or Catera or Pontiac GTO? Importing badge engineered models to stick in a lineup that is already a motley crew has never and will never revive a brand.
Cadillac did have a car based on the Opel Omega called the Catera a few years back. In it's defense, it was a much better car than the crummy Cimmaron. It wasn't a Cadillac and looked too much like a Chevrolet Lumina. I hope the guy who came up with the super-stupid "Caddy that zigs" and the cartoon bird marketing campaign is currently living in a van down by the river.
They're making the new Falcon platform a GLOBAL RWD platform to be used by multiple brands in multiple continents. Australia, Europe and North America used to operate separately - not any more.
This is no different than Jaguar and Lincoln working together on the dew98 platform. It will not be a rebadged Falcon and Lincoln will be involved in the engineering and it won't be imported from Australia - if they decide to go forward with it.
We complain about Lincoln not having RWD and about Ford not sharing platforms with Europe and Australia. Now we're complaining when they do.
There is just no pleasing some people.
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EltonRon
Host- Automotive News & Views
The Australian Falcon isn't a solid-axle BOF goonmobile like Lincoln's current "flagship", and the higher trims of the LWB Fairlane variant are arguably more luxurious than anything Lincoln has on hand now.
Would it be nice if Ford could develop a new multilink RWD platform just for Lincoln? Sure, but hocking half the company just to keep afloat through the decade tends to cut down on that sort of largesse.
If true, this backhandedly confirms what I have long beleived: that Bill Ford holds an aversion to the brand...owing to the effect the cancellation of the Mark II had on his father, William Sr.
The sad truth is that Mr. Horbury's efforts to build a Lincoln based from the rwd Austrialian Falcon platform is a bold act by a designer to show management that they are taking the wrong course with Lincoln. Relying too heavily on FWD and SUV/Cross-overs will not alone save the brand, nor rescicitate it as Cadillac has done within the last decade. For the first three quarters of this year, Cadillac outsold Lincoln 169.997 vehicles to 89,494. Volvo outsold Lincoln by 175 cars.
Jaguar's sales world-wide will be lucky to top 50,000 cars---where it was before Ford acquired it. Given the $1.6Bn that Ford Motor has recently infused into Jaguar, that means it is losing about $48,000 per vehicle sold this year---if sales top out to 60,000 the loss will "decrease" to $35,000 per vehicle sold. Leaving the only choice for Mr. Mulally: to convert engineering and built expertise used in Jaguar to Lincoln. The only way to amortise the huge development costs of the Jaguar range. While DCX has stated that: "A Mercedes will remain a Mercedes..." and Chrysler will not cross-share current M-B platforms, Lincoln and Jaguar don't have that luxury.
So Mr. Horbury is playing a very risky game, but a necessary one to capture Mr. Mullaly's attention. He must save Lincoln over the desultory attitude that William C. Ford Jr. ostensibly holds for Lincoln. It is not unlike Robert McNamara threatening to cancel Lincoln in June 1958 unless the studios came up with something exciting---and cost effective.
Balanced against the marketplace, it would seem this is the only solution (for now) for Lincoln. With 10 of its 33 plants put of for collateral for its $22.5Bn loans, time is of the essence. In America Ford Motor's position is not unlike that of Packard in 1954---needing new products to stablise its market position. Add to that the fact that Audi, under the aegis of VWAG-Porsche CEO's Martin Winterkorn & Wendelin Weideking declaring that Audi will double its market share through 2011, with an investment of $11Bn through 2012, such increases for Audi and VWAG/Porsche can only hope to come from Ford's former market. They are also tapping into the $114Bn Hybrid Financing market to cement the two companies together (Porsche-VWAG effectivley have become one company, under the control of the Porsche and Piech families holding 29.9% of VWAG, with a $10.9Bn line of credit on hand to expand their holdings when the State of Lower Saxony divests itself of large blocks of VW stock.) and speeding product development work as block against the impending Chinese and Japanese onslaught. Lincoln, therefore, has to be better than the cars in the pipeline from Audi-Porsche, not to mention its longtime rival Cadillac if they have any hope of regaining their position.
The truth is that by the time the new RWD Lincoln does arrive, it's a fair bet that the market will be comprised of a Big Three: GM, Toyota, and VWAG/Porsche, with a second tier of manufacturers holding just below their level globally: DCX, Ford, Honda, etc. In the U.S. Ford has occassionally dropped to fourth, and might even drop to fifth, given their stagering loss of market share this year.
That's why Ford's Sales Director Al Giambetti, stated that: "This is the time for Lincoln to start putting results together and get the brand going." The men and women at Ford Motor who are doing so, while they might hope to change Bill Ford's attitude about Lincoln, first and foremost it is the consumer they must reach. It will take a real "Wow" factor plus hard work to get back to that point. If Bentley can maintian its loyal following with Arnage, using a near 50 year old V8, Lincoln can regain the same with a rwd platform.
Otherwise, it will be Lincoln's last Hurrah in 2009/10. Far be it for me to say that Bill Ford seems only to be interested in pick-up trucks and Mustangs, but when was the last time you saw a picture of him drivng a Lincoln?
This is what Mr. Horbury, and Mr. Mulally are up against.
DouglasR
(Sources: FT, WSJ, Edmunds Inside Line, Business Week 12-12-06)
PRECISELY!! In 97, the last year for the real Town Car IMO, the car was luxurious, gorgeous in the cabin, and had all the gadgets and gizmos known to modern automotive engineering at the time. Then, in 98, the livery version came out - with a no style dash, but one easily adapted for a 2-way radio and meter...and leather seats from the hind end of a cow, and options went away. Frankly, the Grand Marquis IS more luxurious, or was until a few years ago when they dropped the electronic instrument cluster, and put one in from Barne's squad car.
I also aspired to a Town Car for years, and when I was finally ready for one - it turns my stomach. That's why I'm driving a Lexus.
I will say however, I have checked out the 07s, and Alan has already had an influence. The leather seats are actually plush again with real fine leather. Big improvement. Not much else yet, but I like the trend.
My insider friends in Detroit tell me that Bill Ford has ALWAYS driven an F-150 around the town - usually the newest prototype out, but nonetheless, NEVER a Lincoln.
Yeah, but GM also has a GLOBAL RWD platform, also developed in Australia and also to be used by its multiple brands. But those brands include BUICK, Chevy and Pontiac. Cadillac is not involved in this project it has UNIQUE chassis.
So Ford still treats Lincoln like GM Buick. Ford could use platforms developed by Jaguar even though Jaguar developed RWD platforms being expensive still could not compete with Mercedes, BMW or Infinity.
Lexus/Toyota
RX330-Highlander
ES30-Camry
Lx470-Land Cruiser
Gx470-4Runner
Dosent Nissan use the 350z's platform with a few Infiniti models???
I'm curious. Didn't Lincoln start to outsell Cadillac in the late 1970s with the Mark V? And was the Mark V sharing a platform with the Mercury Cougar and Ford T-bird? If not, they sure looked like they did.
There's no reason to believe the new Falcon platform wouldn't be just as good as anything else they could build from scratch.
A Lincoln Falcon? Guess that is OK. Why can't it be a Merc and let Lincoln R.I.P. unless they want to go all the way into luxo cars again. The family car was once a Falcon. 1961 model year, I do believe. It went some 20K between overhauls, as it, along with other cars of that era, had smog pumping issues. I take it a Falcon is of higher statue these days. Why not just import Fords, and GM cars as they are name and looks wise? Ford gets a car to sell here, with yet again another F letter to begin the name. Guess Falcon name is not so hot in USA. Some, especially with a V8, were pretty cool mid-sized (small cars). They even had a convertible. I would move the cars on up to Mercury standard, and drop the other names. With limited time and resources, I can not see how you can split it between three lines.
As for Infinity using other platforms, that is a good idea. But then again, I don't view that Japan line as the same class as say a BMW.
Same with Acura - good car, but not a Bimmer or Mercedes.
-Loren
And any wagon version should be a "shooting brake" style or sports estate car. Then the tradition of the Mustang having more than one closed body style could be followed without watering down the Mustang concept.
Now, you are right if they simply plan to use the Mustang name on a sedan and a wagon. That sort of sounds like wahat they did with the Lincoln Mark VI 4-door (bad idea), and the Cougar 4 door from the late 70's and early 80's (ugh).
Recall the many transformations of the Thunderbird? There is nothing sacred with these car companies. The best bold move would be to add the 3.5 V6 to the Mustang and dump the truck engine. The previous model cost quite a bit less than the new one. Here is Calif. they had V6 Stangs for $14,777 at one time; not so long ago. I could see the new one selling for $18K and the GT for $23K, but I hear of GTs now price ten thousand more -- yeah, really some are $33K or more. I think convertibles around $35K. Really now, these are not Bimmers, or Cadillac CTS class of cars. The special Saleen and others in that class of New Mustangs is way off the chart for price, and people still buy into it. If they are happy, I guess the price is right.
I would buy a 2004 or older and have less repair bills, lower prices on parts, and not any of the new bugs. And they look happier. The New Stang is alright for looks, but that face looks so sad with the drooping eyes up front. The 2008 or is it it 2009 will be a bit sleeker.
-Loren
I for one would prefer the real deal. The 1800s were cool sporty cars. If they produce a model of the C30 for say $23K, then it should be a really hot selling car. Audi had success with the A2. A Mustang version of same -- ummmmm, not so good an idea. A four seater sports car of some sort, like the Mazda RX8 may be something which would sell. That said look how slick the RX7 looks in comparison. Oh well, it's all good!
I hear the Mustang Minivan version has been canceled :P
-Loren.
What about the Lincoln minivan version? Still on?
Next, it used to be that old Americans aspired to Lincolns (and Caddys) having spent their youth driving Fords, Chevys, Mercurys etc when they had kids and couldn't afford Ls and Cs. So yeah, Ford and GM had a captive market that moved up their chain as they aged and gained more disposable income.
Now however, the playing field is a whoile lot different. There are far more brands to choose from. And they feel that if they can't get younger people driving their cars that no one will aspire to them when they're older. Does that make sense?
Unfortunately, judging from some of the posts on these boards and elsewhere, the best way to get people to feel like they 'want' to drive Lincolns is for them to have never owned one. (That's the joke, son)
The danger of that, is your market is getting too old to buy many more cars...Then what? (The average age of a RETAIL Town Car buyer is 68-- How many new cars will they be buying?)(and if the AVERAGE age is 68 that means half are OLDER than that!)
Do you think all the 40-somethings buying all those BMW's and Lexi are hoping to buy a Lincoln the day they qualify for Medicare?
Who would you want as customers for life- a bunch of 35 year olds or a bunch of 68 year olds? --Especially if there are no replacements for those 68 year olds.
There are no current Lincoln cars which appeal to me. Even if I liked the Town Car it is too wide for the streets of my city. Was looking into the LS at one time, but it is now history and all but abandoned. The CTS has a future. As for the MKZ it looks like a Milan to me, and for less money I could buy a nearly new CTS or DeVille (next year DTS). Sorry Lincoln, the Cadillac looks to me more like the real deal.
-Loren
Like what was said here before, a very good experience with say a Chevy or Pontiac when young may lead to a possible Cadillac sale later on. My take on GM is that they now seem to have but a few truly new and half way modern cars in the lower end, with Cadillac remaining their higher tech and quality line. So they are asking people to jump from say a good Nissan or Honda/Toyota car directly into a top line GM. Big leap, but good advertising and good development of an interesting car, the CTS, did help. I say help, as I am not sure how young those CTS owners are. The CTS-V does look great on the track - say it at Laguna Seca -- may I say a cool Caddy!
-Loren
40+++ years ago I am sure the majority 25 year olds saw Caddy and Lincoln as aspirational cars, status symbols. Today, the same can't be said.
BTW, you do have one thing a bit wrong - if the *median* age was 68 then half would be older and half younger. Average doesn't mean that.
Through it all, I always like all the models of Eldorados. The Sevilles, were interesting as well. Well the bustle back Seville was plain weird.
The '78 one which sits on a Nova chasis is pretty neat for style. And the last of the leaf spring Cadillacs, I think.
-Loren
See, as esteemed and rich as Lincoln's history is, its utterly dormant now. Such a shame, too, for an esteemed marque but they put it to sleep somewhere in the 90's/00's, when they killed the Mark and Continental, decontented the Town Car, released the Blackwood and Mark LT, and made Lincolns utterly boring.
Now, they're trying to pick up the pieces and adjust, by taking Lincoln to the closest base - near-luxury. Lincoln's talking about Acura now, even Buick, not Cadillac or BMW.
I think FMC realises that Lincoln isn't going to be heading back up into the luxury market again, not with the increased competition and lack of product (the last truly luxury-rivalling years had to have been the late 80's, IMO). So, they figure they'll get two birds with one stone and expand the Lincoln line-up (MKS, MKZ, MKX, Fairlane-based Lincoln, RWD Lincoln) so the dealers can stand on their own without Mercury. Face it, unless the new FMC car czar or Mulally decides to port over the C1 Focus, Mondeo, S-Max etc and slap on Mercury badges, the brand hasn't got a chance. The brands been around for eons, and what has it got to show for it? The '49 leadsled Mercury. The '68 Cougar. That's it. The domestics are realising they can't rely on patriotism to sell cars, and that the imports often have better quality. Thus, they have to offer compelling reasons to buy domestic outside of price. They have to offer tantalising cars, cars that are different. Mercury doesn't offer that. They can't rely on their history, either, to offer that. They've been suffering from declining sales for years, and a patchwork line-up in the past few decades. They're redundant.
I say FMC expands Lincolns line-up as they make it a fully-fledged near-luxury line-up. Then, they can kill Mercury. Yes, I know, they turn a profit because Fords are so easy to "Mercufy", but they still have to pay for the promotion of the brand, make an effort to show that it exists, so it's not quite the cakewalk for them as people would think. Just kill Mercury.
Period Lincolns had some panache of their own, but for the most part it was pretty geriatric. It seems to me that a 1955 Caddy or Lincoln wasn't necessarily that way. Caddy is coming out of it...Lincoln needs to get on the radar again before it can do likewise.
Mean, Median or Mode, if they 68 year olds, aren't buying too many more cars.
Well, no test, just keepin it real as they say. BTW, you are (still) wrong. From the Wisconsin Dept of public instruction, Math Glossary of terms I quote:
Mean. The arithmetic average of a set of numerical data.
Median. The middle value of an ordered set of numerical data. For example, the median value of the set {5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 11,13} is 10.
So, here is an ordered set of the ages of all Lincoln buyers in the last week (just a guess really) along with the median age and the average (mean) age:
Ordered set: (40,45,50,55,60,61,90,90,90)
median = 60 average = 65
In other words, you have no idea what you're talking about, know what I mean?
Average and mean are mathematically intechangable.
I thought your original message said that I was wrong saying median was the middle value. Perhpas I misinterpreted your sentence? Not that it matters to the average reader.
Do you think all the 40-somethings buying all those BMW's and Lexi are hoping to buy a Lincoln the day they qualify for Medicare?
No, they won't, and you won't get them to buy a Lincoln NOW either - so make cars that old people like, big, reasonably priced, luxurious, not well handling or fast, and you can own the market.... If you sell lots of 68 year olds a car, just one, you'll do much better than they're doing now.
I don't know, maybe I'm screwed up, I just hear this time and time again, that we have to lower the age of our customers, which means they don't give a rip about ME anymore, so I'm driving a Lexus. That didn't work for them, did it? If they were still making a Town Car of the caliber of the 97, I'd be driving one now.
Let's keep the posts focused upon the automotive-related subject of this thread and not upon math terminology, OK?
EltonRon
Host- Automotive News & Views
I don't think you're screwed up - I've been thinking the same thing. Why not market to that age niche (I'm not there yet, btw)? God willing, all of us will reach that age eventually, and we'll need at least one last car, maybe two.