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P.S. May want to do some research. Rio5 offers a flat cargo area; I expect the 3- and 5-door Accent will also when they arrive. Accent comes with ABS and side bags/curtains standard--we don't know yet what the Fit will have although if Honda sticks to its promises it will have same. And the Accent has tons of bins and holders also, e.g. 8 cup/bottle holders (in a 5-seat car!). Since you don't know the price of the Fit yet, it's a little hard to say it will cost a few hundred dollars more than Accent/Rio, comparably equipped. We'll need to wait and see on that.
My ownership experience with my 2002 Hyundai Accent GL was the best out of all the cars I've owned. It's a very simple car and I had no complaints. My sister bought the first year 2001 Hyundai Elantra and she's still driving happy. My mom bought the 2004 Hyundai Elantra and its the same happy driving experience.
To back that up, Edmund's maintenance schedule states that for the 2004 Hyundai Accent GL, there were 7 TSBs vs 127 TSBs for the 2004 Honda Civic LX.
If people's perception of Hyundai is still bad, then it just makes it good for people like me who can see a diamond in the rough. I save a lot of $$$ in the process. Thanks!
However, I had to rent a 2004 Hyundai Accent 4 door while in the Bay Area of northern California last year. I can comfortably say that neither the engine, nor the handling were up to the same standards of Honda.
On the other hand, the interior was well done, and the car felt solid.
Regarding the TSBs on the Civic, I think a big factor of that is where the cars are built. The Fit will be made in Japan, and while this doesn't fix everything, I have noticed a major difference regarding quality on cars whether they were made in Japan or the United States.
The Fit will cost thousands (not hundreds) of dollars over the Accent and Rio. Therefore, they will attract a somewhat different crowd. The two Koreans will still remain the favorite of people looking for a cheaper (price) car.
Regarding the competitiveness of the Fit...
This summer I was watching a program where they compared the Honda Jazz, Seat Ibiza, Mitsubishi Colt, Suzuki Swift, and Hyundai Getz on performance, handling, comfort, looks, etc. These names mean nothing to most of you, but all of these cars fall into the B-segment or supermini class in Europe (subcompact in the US). The Ibiza and Getz had been redesigned sometime after the Jazz was introduced, and the Colt and Swift were brand new models. However, the Jazz still beat them overall.
Some of the highlights were the quiet ride, the massive interior, the great handling, and the feel of a "proper car" rather than a supermini. Even though many cars have "fold-down seats", the Jazz still has the easiest to use system that creates the most room. The real reason for this is the location of the gas tank, that allows the back seats to fold down completely to the bottom of the car. In fact, during the test, they ran out of items to put in the car. Some of the more akward items they fit in were a full size mountain bike, office chair, a large beach ball, and then some other random things like a child's ride-on toy, a case of mineral water, a large fuel can, a collapsible baby stroller, a child's safety seat, and a few other things...all at once. Of course the rear row of seats was down, but it demonstrates the flexibility of a car two feet shorter than the Civic.
Although the Fit is not a premium supermini by any stretch, I still believe that it will occupy the upper rung in the US economy subcompact category.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051122/ap_on_bi_ge/motor_trend_car
'Think this will have any impact on the Fit strategy or demand for Fits? Will stronger (perhaps) demand for Civics more clearly delineate the positions between the two vehicles? I ask because Honda's upgrade of the Civic needed to get consumers to view it as a more upscale car and not the entry-level model in their lineup - looks like this will work.
I also read in a separate recent article - Fit news continues to be very light - a report that Honda had increased its forecast for Fit sales based on increasing gas prices.
I was pleased to pay $1.99 for gas here in Boston for the first time in months yesterday...
Expecting to test drive some Hyundais, the Civic, and the xA in the near future, perhaps this weekend, and hoping for Fit news.
Because the fuel tank is located under the front seats, the result is that you can install that innovative Magic Seat system where back seat passengers enjoy surprising amounts of space and you can fold the seat backs totally flat against the floor to create a huge cargo area or fold the back seat bottoms up to create a large, high-ceiling center cargo area. That's why I've described the Fit as the ultimate grocery shopping car.
In short, No. The two cars are too distinct, IMO. The Civic has been moved upscale for people who want style and performance over economy and utility - where the FIT shines.
The only cars that have this are the Fit/Jazz, Fit Aria/City, Airwave, and (I believe) the new Civic 5-door.
I am surprised that other companies have not tried a similar approach.
http://www.honda.co.jp/auto-lineup/fit/interior/ultrseat.html
****
Honda managed to pull off a small miracle here. They took their lines and managed to slowly, without anyone really noticing, to bump them up a level. Compare the 2006 Civic to a 1996 Accord. The result? A completely open spot in their lineup without having to replace or get rid of anything.
BTW, the Fit outsells the Civic worldwide. It's actually a very nice little car.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2005-11-24-rio_x.htm
Mentions the Fit at the end in its basic conclusion "Why by this when you can buy a Fit (or Versa or Yaris) in a few months?"
1. The car needs a little more power and also a more refined engine.
2. The build quality of the interior parts could be better.
But alas, there is no way a Rio5 can compared to the Fit's very versatile interior configuration design, mostly because the Rio5's back seat can't fold down totally flat to the floor to create a huge cargo area or the back seat bottoms fold up to create a large center cargo area.
The build quality of the interior parts in the Rio LX that I drove was excellent, for an inexpensive car. Every review I have seen of the Rio, including Healey's, has noted the quality of the interior.
I have a brochure for the Rio5 and it clearly shows the rear seat folded flat to form a flat load floor. The rear is quite roomy, 50 cubic feet, e.g. big enough to hold a mountain bike (I've seen a photo of that.) I have not inspected one in person yet to see if the rear seat bottoms fold forward to provide this flat surface, but I expect if it did, it would not have the same kind of storage area under the rear seat cushion as does the Fit.
The seating system on the Rio5 is the traditional "pull the seat cushion up towards the front seats". On the Fit, since the entire rear seat unit collapses downward, it allows for a better utilization of space in the "utility" mode. For example, on the US Kia website, it shows a bike laying on its side, while the Japan Honda website shows a bike actually able to stand upright...and the Fit is only 2 inches taller than the Rio5.
From the interior shot of the Rio5 on Kia's US website with the bicycle, that hardly looks like a flat floor, by the way...
Secondly, the Long and Tall modes in the Fit aren't even possible in the Rio, and both of those can be particularly useful. The Long mode creates an 8 foot long space (not too bad in a 12 foot 7 inch long car), and Tall mode creates a 4 foot tall space (never even seen in a supermini).
The material quality in the Fit is excellent, period.
...not just "for an inexpensive car". Honda has not spared any expense on the Fit.
Does anyone know is the present Jazz has a timing belt or chain???
Will the fit have a chain or belt??
If you look at this web page:
http://asia.vtec.net/Series/FitJazz/lseries/index.html
If we get the Honda Fit with the L-series engine block it will use a timing chain.
The build quality of the interior parts in the Rio LX that I drove was excellent, for an inexpensive car
****
That's why the Fit will shine - Honda is making a Honda Mini in effect - a small, cute, extremely versitile little Mini-sized car for a rock-bottom price. It's going to be excellent as a car, period, and not "for an inexpensive car." Drive a Mini. Drive a 2006 Civic right afterwards. Now imagine a hybrid of the two. Notice how it's a totally different mental image than an Aveo or Rio that comes to mind.
So they sell them for a few hundred over cost - big deal. Scion does this as well - sells their cars for virtually no profit to gain customers. It's a legitimate sales tactic.
Plus, who are you kidding? The Kia engines rev noisy, and get noticeably worse gas mileage for their power than a Toyota or Honda engine. The Fit will get 45mpg or so highway and rev like a small sewing machine. As for interior - again - the vents(always adjusting them type item, and the knobs and switches - they just feel cheap. My 1987 beater Buick has more solid switches and knobs)
The Problem with the Rio is that, as the magazine article someone recently posted the URL for here said, it's just "not quite a..." It comes close, but suffers from the same image that GM does - it's a good car but not quite a superb one.
Lastly - equip a Rio. Add ABS. Add AC. Add side airbags(if it has them). That means LX model.:
Price: $12,445 $11,810 $12,156
Optional Equipment $1,000 $892 $960
PP Power Package $600 $535 $576
AB Antilock Brakes $400 $357 $384
Color Adjustment - - $0 White
Destination Charge $540 $540 $540
Total with Options $13,985 $13,242 $13,656
***
To get even close to the Fit, you need to go up a trim level. This is for the 5-speed. But it's still no Fit. Honda has a "no options" policy which works to their advantage - higher prices but there isn't $1000 in options hiddden, either(and try to find a RIO with ABS)
Rio 5, automatic
Price: $14,350 $13,620 $14,029
Optional Equipment $1,070 $946 $1,024
PP Power Package $600 $535 $576
AB Antilock Brakes $400 $357 $384
CF Carpeted Floor Mats $70 $54 $64
Color Adjustment - - $0 White
Destination Charge $540 $540 $540
Total with Options $15,960 $15,106 $15,593
Um... it costs MORE than a Honda Fit? I know you love Hyundai and Kia, but the pricing is off. For $2K more, you can have a Mini Cooper, which has virutally no depreciation. For $2K less, you can have a Fit.
And why persist on using this discussion on the Honda Fit to beat up on Korean cars? You could start a discussion like "Honda Fit vs. Kia Rio" and throw barbs at the Rio all day and all night if you want to, and leave this one for people who want to discuss the Fit. First you may want to drive a Rio, however. You may find, as I did, that the controls and vents are pretty darn good, with Lexus-like smoothness in the switchgear.
It will be less than the Civic (being that it is Honda's new entry-level car), but it will be more than the Korean and American (Aveo) competition. It will have the "Honda premium". Therefore $13-$15k is of course still just an estimate, but probably the closest to what it will really be.
"no idea what the standard equipment and options will be"
I believe in a business brief or press release a while back, Honda said they would bring the Fit in "loaded up" rather than "stripped down".
Small cars in the US are not profit-makers for a company. However, they can be considered investments. Honda has quite a bit of owner loyalty, and someone who buys a Fit has a better of chance of upgrading to a Civic...and then an Accord...and then an Odyssey, and finally an Acura RL later in life. They want to turn these people into lifelong Honda customers.
"How about we wait until we can actually drive the U.S. Fit before proclaiming that it's a Honda Mini Cooper"
The US will most likely be getting the current generation Fit/Jazz. This is the car currently sold around the world getting all of the amazing reviews. Therefore, the US Fit (apart from minor modifications for EPA, DOT, and US demographics) will be the same as the rest of the world.
The power to weight ratio of the Fit with the 1.5L engine is virtually identical to the base Cooper. The torque, adjusted for weight, is nearly the same as well. The base Cooper isn't a slug, either, especially with stickshift. With automatic, - the automatic is nearly identical to the Mini's in operation as well.
Both are micro-hatchbacks. Both are really meant to seat 4 people as well. What the Fit doesnt have is leather, a sunroof, the luxury options, and the ability to customize it. That's a fair trade for $4-5K less cost, IMO.
I will be glad when Honda releases some information on this car (for the U.S. market) so we know for sure things like standard equipment ("lodaded" doesn't tell me much--Honda's idea of loaded may not be my idea), options, prices, fuel economy, and crash ratings (not from Honda of course, but from the NHTSA and IIHS).
The Euro NCAP is just as unbiased and trustworthy of a source as the NHTSA and IIHS. Anyway, the reason Honda does its own crash tests (whose ratings are not released publicly and are not used for comparison) is to assist in the R&D process. Honda has one of the most advanced all-weather crash test facilities, and I would have to think that crashing a Fit into a Honda Legend will provide somewhat more realistic results than crashing it into a "deformable barrier".
"There's the little matter of handling, for example."
Actually, the Jazz has been tested numerous times (by people other than Honda) and handles very well, very smoothly. It holds the road well, does not have a "tippy" feeling during cornering (being that's it 5 feet tall) and performs well in accident avoidance maneuvers.
Responding to another post...the Jazz in some European countries has a sunroof option :shades:
The Fit also has a very low center of gravity - lower than the Mini. It actually does handle better. Yeah, it doesn't have the image, but well, most people don't care. For $5K less, I can live with a Honda.
The reason why the Fit/Jazz has a low center of gravity is because Honda put the fuel tank beneath the front seat of the car, which dramatically alters the CG of the entire body of the car compared to the normal location of the fuel tank in the rear of the car. With a good set of tires and proper third-party suspension parts, the Fit could offer handling just as good as the current Mini but at nearly US$7,000 to US$9,000 less.
By the way, I've driven the current Mini and while I do like its handling, the car has a VERY stiff ride that makes you feel almost every bump on the road, not a very good idea given the state of roads in California! :mad:
I expect the Fit would be a nimble little car--that is one of the major benefits of such a small car. The fact it has a lower center of gravity than a Mini Cooper is fascinating. I wonder if that is true when there is more than one passenger in the car--e.g. if the car is fully loaded with people, wouldn't the fact they sit higher than in the Mini Cooper affect the center of gravity more than the gas tank?
Now, if a Fit EX costs $14,995 with the manual, I would still be interested. Heck, even $15,995 would be doable, depending on how it drives. And just how good that fuel economy is.
If it really does hit 115 hp in US form from the 1.5 it would be ironic - it would have the same power rating as the just-expired gen of the Civic.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Fit vs Base Cooper: Same power, same torque(adjusted for weight), same alloy wheels, lower CG, better turning radius/cornering, virtually identical wheelbase...
The Cooper S is a better vehicle, and the "sport" package equipped Mini should just about equal the fit(cheap option - a few hundred dollars), but it looks like Honda is doing what they do best. That is, copy the competition and make it for less.
Now, that said, neither car is a RX-8. Lol. They are what they are.
I saw relatively few Honda Accords (the Japanese Accord is like the European Accord and is a less elaborate version of our Acura TSX).
The American Accord is sold in Japan as the Honda Inspire and I saw just a few of them while in Japan. There are numerous, tiny cars including baby Honda models, Daihatsu, Suzuki, and Mazda cars, too. But Toyota is the most popular brand, by far.
Because I knew that the Fit would be coming to the U.S. I took notice of them and they are sensible cars that are small on the outside and big on the inside. Their 5-door design is useful and they'll surely be everywhere in the U.S.--especially in crowded cities like San Francisco from where I'm writing this.
Also, it's pretty cool that the Fit uses the exact same alloy wheels as the BMW-built Mini Cooper. Maybe with little Honda emblems on the hubs vs. Mini Cooper emblems?
The Honda Fit is among the most popular-selling cars in Japan--period--mostly because the external size of the Fit makes it perfect for Japan's many narrow city streets; the Japanese also love the Fit's amazing amount of interior space for such a small car.
IMHO, a Honda Fit is not a Mini Cooper. Its more like a Mitsubishi Lancer OZ edition - A base model with Sports Appearance package.
The Fit is a great, wonderful car, but let's stop comparing it to things that it really has no relation to.
The Fit is no sport hatchback. It cannot be compared to the Mini. The Mini has a tighter, compact body. The Fit is 60 inches (5 feet!) tall. Thanks to the low center of gravity, it can handle well despite the height, but it will not handle like a Mini.
It has no relation to anything Mitsubishi sells in the United States. If Mitsubishi decides that the Colt will be ready to join the ranks of the Fit, Yaris, and Versa, then we can start talking.
The L-series i-DSI engine is actually meant exclusively for efficiency, while the VTEC engine is supposed to add a little bit of performance to it, but the keyword is "a little".
The only cars that are realistically in the same category of the Fit currently are the Chevrolet Aveo, and the Scion XA. The Kia Rio5 and Suzuki Arieo are similar, but somewhat larger. When the US Fit actually comes to the US, everyone can drive it and compare it to the Toyota Yaris and Nissan Versa, but don't set yourselves up thinking that when you first get behind the wheel, it will be a Honda Mini.
That said, the base Mini was uninspiring. It was artifically twitchy, sluggish to respond - overdampened steering, and slow. My old Volvo 240 Turbo I had in college would eat it for lunch - tighter turning radius, better suspension, way more power, and only a tiny bit heavier.
You think you are racing around in a base Mini, - but it's a slick bit of illusion they are pulling on you - the car is small, and you are up close to the front, so your perspective says "gosh I'm going fast and turning well" - but it's just not. 34ft - that's equivalent turning radius to most small sedans with a much longer wheelbase. If it were designed correctly, it would be 30ft. My 240 Turbo *felt* slower and less agile, but it clearly wasn't if you pushed it.
The S, though - it is a fine car - totally different animal than the base model. It really does move well and the high-end suspension option is great. The S's will be worth a decent amount ten years from now, while nobody will want to touch a base model used.
And of course when I talk about the Fit I am [mentally] referring to the 1,2i and 1,4i Jazz in Europe (lower than 90 HP), while the US Fit will be a 1,5i (more than 100 HP).
I am still not saying that it will perform like a Mini Cooper, but it will probably have some of the best handling in its class (less than $15 000 subcompacts).
The television program I saw when they compared the five B-segment cars (Ibiza, Getz, Colt, Fit, Swift) tested a 1,2i Jazz. I'm not sure if it was a base 1,2i or the 1,2i Cool, but I think the only difference is interior upgrades.
Regardless, they commented on how smoothly the car dealt with the emergency maneuver at 60-70 km/h, and that was just the base model, so the 1,4i Sport for example, probably does much better. The thing is though, that occasional emergency maneuvers and pushing the car to the limit on a windy, country road are two very different things.
The Mini has a completely different image as a niche vehicle though, rather than an entry-level. From a handling perspective it will just have to be seen what the US Fit will get for the suspension. If Honda does go for a Base/Sport trim line strategy on the Fit, you can bet that an upgraded suspension will be one of the selling points for the Sport model.
But I think these cars fit different niches anyway. The Fit looks like a wonderful car--more utility than the Mini S. The Mini S is less practical, but a blast to drive--most fun car I've driven. Which is why I bought one...
Actually, I've talked with a dealer and service manager at a local Mini dealership and they say the ride harshness is caused by the use of stiff-sidewall run-flat tires, which the suspenion of the car has difficulty compensating for. As a result, you feel every road rut and pothole with a vengence. :surprise: In contrast, due to the softer springs and the use of higher-profile 175/65R14 and 185/55R15 tires, the Fit will definitely have better bump absorption.
I'm not sure what year your Volvo 240 is but it has turbo so lets be fair and compare it to the Mini Cooper S.
Now back to the topic of Honda Fit being like a Honda Mini. As much as I hope it would, I don't think it can be compared. I read that the upcoming Fit Sports edition will have "The sport model will carry the features of the base plus ground effects, sport grille, wheels, fog lights, upgraded stereo and more." I'm disappointed in this as its all aesthetics. This approach is like Mitsubishi's base Lancer being dressed up to be the Lancer OZ Rally edition.
Check out the miniusa site as it explains why the handling is the way it is.
the Fit is a good car - but IMO, Mini shouldn't sell the base model - only the S, since the base model isn't really special for the price.
Sell the "Base" model with the L13A i-DSI, but sell it reasonably well-equipped with features such as CD player, air, electric windows/mirrors/locks, cruise control standard. In other words, equip it like a US-market Civic LX.
Then sell the "Sport" model with the L15A VTEC with the features of the Base, plus a few "visual" extras like alloy wheels, a roof spoiler, side skirts, fog lights, and some other extras like upgraded suspension, upgraded stereo, etc.
This way, people could have the cheaper fuel-efficient model, without feeling cheated on features.
...or better yet, sell three trim lines! The decently-equipped fuel efficient model (1,3i LX), a decently-equipped more powerful model (1,5i LX), and then the sporty model (1,5i Sport).
So let us be realistic, as I wrote a while back...
Honda Mexico's 1.5 vtec engine on the 06 Fit is rated at 109hp5800rpm/106torque4800rpm. The car weighs about 2300lbs. I think this is what we are getting in March. Compared their Civic/Accord engines and they are the same specs as the US models.
So with that, expect a car that goes 0-60 in around 10sec with top speed of 115mph. I can live with that.
I'm buying the Fit because its cute, sporty looking, versatile, practical and a gas miser. The base Mini is a well build little tank-like car so its not fair to compare it with the Fit's characteristics or vice versa.
The Honda Fit is the entry level car for Honda. The Mini is the bread and butter, the one and only one model (not type) they sell.
That's why I suggested having two or three trim lines with TWO kinds of engines.
Also, the L13A rated at 1339cc is not the smallest. The L12A at 1246cc is. The point with the i-DSI is that if offers low fuel consumption, and a very wide maximum horsepower band from about 2000-4000 rpm. This allows for better performance at lower engine speeds. Since the car burns the fuel with two spark plugs it creates a fuller burn, hence less emissions, better power, and less fuel consumed.
I personally am going to buy the 5 speed manual, but if it is equipped with a CVT automatic as an option, the power loss will not be as significant than with a regular gear automatic.