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Comments
There's mention that Toyota is attacking the recent quality problems head-on: by hiring 8000 new engineers, worldwide.
Guess a fair number of those will come from the Detroit 3 -- looking for a better opportunity.
delray... beat me to the same post.
For less than $200, you can log the Oxygen sensors' readings, as well as throttle, engine RPM and car speed, and see what happens during hesitation. Because new Camrys use the very fast CAN Bus, each value is sampled more than 10 times per second. Loggged data can be exported to Excel files for analysis.
I can't help you more because mine is a Hybrid, and I really REALLY need to bang the accelerator to the floor to, sometimes only, feel a 1-second hesitation.
posted a valid defect or problem with their Camry
i'd be one of the posters supporting those with a valid defect, NOT one of the posters criticizing someone with an issue with their vehicle.
i'm the one suggesting some poor soul with the problem get a particular OBD-II reader capable of toyota specific parameter capture on a laptop to present objective data of hesitation events that noone could refute, but also which would help us all visualize and discuss the problem better.
oh well.
Problem #1 - it constantly shifts until you reach over 50 mph - very annoying.
Problem #2 - too fast an idle speed - when the car has been driven and is warm - on a flat street I can go up to almost 10 mph without touching the gas pedal - BIG SAFETY PROBLEM!
Problem #3 - Cruise control does not hold going down a hill (all 11 previous Toyotas did). I can set it at 66 or 67 and go down a steep hill and be at 73 or 74 at the bottom - just asking for a ticket - BIG SAFETY PROBLEM!
Problem #3 - breaking - there is a hesitation or jog when brake is applied, really hard to explain what I mean on this one, but it shouldn't do this.
Problem #4 - gas pedal has been changed to a pump-type, entirely new for 2007. Therefore whenever I hit a bump, my foot bobbles up and down on the accelerator.
I really like the interior and have had no problems with that so far.
I called my sales rep on 8-30-06 and he referred me to the service dept, where I was told there is no fix on any of these problems. They have computerized the motor and the gas accelerator was changed to the pump style. I called the owner of the company and left a phone message as he was out of town. This lasted over the Labor Day weekend. In any event in over more than 2 weeks the owner did not call me nor the sales rep (who I had called again.)
Finally called the Toyota Headquarters and received a case number and was told by the girl that all the problems I told her of were "design flaws and could not be corrected." After a week and another call to Headquarters, I talked with "Charlie" who asked if my dealer had driven my car or I had driven another Camry and I told him no one had even bothered to call me. He indicated this did not sound like this dealership (my thoughts too and I feel an indication that they don't know what to do). The next day my dealership called and the service manager rode with me in my car and then we took an LE out, which I drove. He kept my car overnight and gave me a 2007 LE to drive. Bottom line - "The car is doing as it was designed."
Regarding Problem #1 - I was told they added a 4th gear because some people like to shift their cars. Why would you purchase an automatic and then shift it. I don't want to feel every shift at around 10, 25, 35, and 45 mph.
In other words I am sitting with over $25,000 invested in what I consider a piece of junk. I also found out that the XLE has a much stiffer suspension than the LE after driving the LE. Why would you put a stiffer suspension in an upscaled luxury model???? It bounces you all over the place. They cannot lower the idle speed - so we burn more expensive gas and I have the problem of always having to have the break on very hard or the car will drift forward into the one in front of me when at stop lights, etc. Really scary! I think Toyota has A MAJOR PROBLEM they don't know what to do with. They sure ruined a good vehicle!! and lost their reputation of being a trouble free vehicle. Cameo41
Seems obnormal to me. Listen to the engine. I don't think the driver was accelerating hard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmhPoBh0JJA
"Let me clear up the guesses and speculation here as that's my car and I shot the video.
First, I'd let the car warm up a bit and driven to the end of our street which "T's" into an intersection with a busy 35 MPH limit cross street. The temperature needle shows a bit above "C".
I didn't floor it or even close to it (video shows it takes about 14 seconds 0-40, where this car is capable of ~7 seconds 0-60). But, you can see when I initially accelerated, the RPM's rise but the speedo remains at 0 MPH (until almost 3k RPM) - total slippage. The transmission continued to slip through 2nd and 3rd gears, accounting for the high RPMs. You can watch the speedo rise normally as an indication that I wasn't racing the car (or even close to it), but was just merging into 35 MPH cross-traffic. After the transmission shifted into 4th, the slippage went away.
So, here's the fix. Turns out dealer #1 (the one who replaced the bad valves under TSB TC008-06R) really screwed the pooch. Dealer #2 identified the problems that Dealer #1 left me with:
* Transmission fluid > 1 Qt. low
* Transmission not "programmed" (either wrong or not at all)
Bet you haven't checked the AFT in your 07 Camry V6 yet, huh? Well, it's got to be done while the fluid is between 103 and 112 degrees and, according to the dealer, requires a special tool! According to the Service Manager, there is no way for you or me to do it.
Anyways, once Dealer #2 fixed the problems, the tranny is back and functioning as normal. The replacement valve, combined with the correct fluid level *and* correctly programming the transmission did the job. Toyota Corporate was involved and made certain the car was repaired to my satisfaction. While I'm not happy about my new car having problems, I am happy that Toyota and Dealer #2 made things right.
About Dealer #1 - this is not the first time they've screwed up on one of my vehicles. I'm warning all of my friends and acquaintences about them.
I would be kidding if I said I was 100% thrilled with what happened. However, the transmission fluid showed no evidence of burning and Toyota Corporate and Dealer #2 really stepped up and made things right. I bought the 7/100/0 extended warranty when I first took delivery of the car, so I figured I'm covered for the probable time period I'll keep the car. Dealer #2 gave me a cool new Tacoma loaner truck with all the bells and whistles to drive while they debugged my ailing Camry and I received regular status calls updating me as to what they found. So, looking at everything, I'm satisfied and will enjoy driving the car for the next 6-7 years. Hey, it's a great car to drive, the stereo is fantastic, and it's really comfortable for me to sit in.
Marc"
but... http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1434160&postcount=14
http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1434214&postcount=17
Yes they are but alot of people with 6cyl are talking about hesitations. That is what I was refering to.
I'm at work, so I'll have to respond later, but I'm puzzled by some of your problems.
Was the Camry new or used when you purchased it? (I would assume used.)
I haven't been able yet to do any extensive testing, just thrilled to have it work once! The only factors different that I'm aware of, is the outside temperatures have now dropped into the 70's and we're not using the air-conditioner (which I suspect consumes a lot of the 4cylinders 40-50HP at 1500-2000 rpms, and is probably the main factor). The car also now has almost 7K miles on it, so undoubtedly is looser now. I am using the same gas from the same gas station, although I don't know when/if they shifted from summer blend to winter blend and whether that has any effect or not. I also had the dealer do an oil change at 3500 miles. Those are the only factors that I can think of, which are different between working better now, and consistently failing prior.
The car should be able to cruise while running the air-conditioner, so I'm not necessarily spiking the ball yet. Just wanted to give others some ideas to investigate. I did have a VW Golf Diesel a number of years ago, and that would actually disengage the air conditioner compressor when the pedal was pressed down, so that all available HP was used in accelerating as opposed to turning the air-conditioner. Seeing an earlier post about a transmission level not being properly filled, makes me wonder whether my air-conditioner freon is over/under charged and the effect that might have on HP requirements. Certainly in the south, air is needed!
Bingo!
I called toyota dealership, they said that the car is designed to be like that. But my old 99 camry doesn't have this problem at all.
Anybody has similar experience?
Actually this is not a correct statement. I have been careful to state that those reporting difficulties, and there are several here, do actually have problems that effect their driving. Some have been resolved perfectly to the satisfaction of the owners some others have not and those owners are unhappy.
This is the full extent of the problem, until further evidence is provided.
In the larger picture the sales of the '07 Camry now are approaching 300,000 units and the reports are, while consistent in what is being experienced, sporadic and seem limited. The vast vast majority of owners seems very happy and perfectly satisfied.
This forum does serve a good purpose to gather experiences and to discuss them but it's hardly proof of 'the demise of Toyota's quality control rating' as you state.
In addition you just reject that the political and legal environment toward automotive recalls/repairs/defects has changed in the last 5 years. This is what you are seeing in the press.
Did you mean to say new "2007"...?
#1 It appears that late in the last century Toyota adopted something called ASL, Aggressive Shift Logic, and other transaxle control techniques proposed in an engineering white paper published by Sierra Research.
Basically the suggestion was that overall fleet wide FE could be improved by 9.8% via adopting such techniques as upshifting the transaxle everytime, anytime, "deemed" opportune/appropriate, use of the torque converter lockup clutch in gear ranges other than overdrive, and shifting the transaxle into neutral during "final", <10 mph, coastdown to a stop, then only shift into 1st gear when fully stopped, or as subsequent acceleration is needed.
Obviously the use of the lockup clutch in this manner would make it "feel" as if you have ~50% more gear ratios to shift through as really exists.
#2 Assuming 2005, it is also quite possible that your particular car has had the engine/transaxle ECU "reflash" (or came from the factory programmed this way if 2007) and that would probably result in the use of a higher idle speed so as to overcome the lack of hydraulic pump capacity resulting from too many "undue" upshifts followed immediately by a downshift as a result of your actions on the accelerator pedal.
#3 Since your car is FWD it is patently UNSAFE to use any level of engine compression braking on certain adverse roadbed conditions. "Coasting" downhill on a somewhat slippery, icy, roadbed with a fully closed throttle being one of the most unsafe procedures possible.
Since the design engineers cannot possibly know or predict when or where that might occur they have deemed it best to remove the threat entirely.
#4 I'm not really very surprised at this, assuming by "pump-type" you really mean shock absorber type as a "damper". I have long suspected that some of the transaxle shifting and engine delay problems being reported have something to do with the driver's actions, activity, on/with teh accelerator pedal.
On of my earlier suggestions for avoiding the 1-2 second downshift delay was to be definitive with the release of the accelerator pedal, even step lightly on the brake quickly when you desire to coast down to a lower speed and NOT have the system "think" your intention was to enter crusing mode.
Due to another post on this matter I have suspected that Toyota was retrofitting these vehicles to a higher volume hydraulic pump within the transaxle to overcome the downshift delay but a higher idle speed would undoubtedly help to overcome this problem.
Can you elaborate on this subject please?
As you have probably figured I am relatively new to forums.
In fact I do not like them. I'm only here because of the screwdup tranny in my 2007CamryLE
"The poor response you described typically surfaces either when the accelerator is depressed fully to the floor or when depressed in an aggressive manner. The newer version of the Camry has transitioned from a manual throttle linkage to an electronic throttle control system. The electronic throttle control monitors the everyday driving habits of the operator and then tailors itself to make the most efficient gearshifts. On rare occasions when the operator fully depresses the pedal or depresses the pedal in an aggressive manner, the system may experience a delay in determining how to make the optimal gearshift.
At this time Toyota has no plans to make changes to the shift characteristics of the transmission. To minimize this condition, we recommend trying a firm yet gradual application of the accelerator
Toyota has a problem about keeping it customers informed. Since the message above is a confirmed EMail from Toyota I would tend to believe it before the one you mentioned from Gulf States. But who knows?
When you step on the brake pedal moderately hard while descending a grade, depending on its steepness, the transmission will downshift one or even two gears (assuming you were in 5th at the start) to keep the car from picking up speed. Obviously, if the engine is turning faster (higher rpm's), it will sound louder. Once you reach the bottom of the hill or step on the gas pedal, the transmission will upshift again.
It's the same thing as downshifting a manual transmission car to keep your speed under control.
I feel that my wife 2005 Honda Pilot shift and drive just as I expect from a normal car. But this camry is not???
Can you elaborate on this subject please?
It began in the 80's and 90's with product liability claims ( Tylenol ). When the Ford/Firestone fiasco arose several years ago all companies and governments learned what not to do if a product might have serious failures or problems that might cause injury or death.
No company wants its Management called before Congress to explain why people are dying as Ford and Firestone had to do. No company wants to have to send senior Management to the home of paralyzed victims to apologise for injuries caused by its product. No governmental agency like the NHTSA wants to be put in the position again of seeming to ignore a potential crisis and possibly being 'under the thumb' of the companies it's supposed to monitor.
In the past I'm sure that Toyota had numerous issues that needed to be corrected. It did them under 'campaigns' where all vehicles with this defect/mismanufacture/repair were done as the vehicles came in for service. The latest one I remember was on the new 2004 Sienna where a reinforcing strap was added to gas tanks to ensure that they didn't rupture during a severe frontal crash. My wife's 2003 MR2 also had an ECU replacement done under 'campaign'.
This put the responsibility on Toyota to catch each and every vehicle coming under a campaign. It was good for its perception but the entire responsibility rested on it. Now it's different as a result of Ford/Firestone. I am nearly certain that attorney's inside and outside of Toyota, and every other company making any product, as well as the companies providing product liability insurance ( and their attorney's ) are telling these companies;
'Listen if you want product liability insurance on this xyz product then you have to let the public know if there is potentially a risk of injury/death. If you don't then no product liability insurance. Simple. Use whatever the correct channel is but get the informantion into the public domain - and that then puts the responsibility on the public to have the product fixed or not. Most will do it but some will not. At least you've made the best effort to correct the potential problem.'
The attorney's inside a company are telling Management 'If you don't get the potentially damaging information out into the public and something disasterous goes wrong like FireStorm then you ( management ) havent' done your job to protect the investments of the owners so you are likely to lose your job or go to prison or be personally liable for any damages - or all three.
At the governmental level I am 99+% certain that the its bosses have told the automakers 'Blindside us again like Ford and Firestone did and you'll never get our shoe off your neck.'
The result is ... massive amounts of recalls from every manufacturer for everything from carpeting to cupholders to tierods to......
My '04 Camry has a 4-speed auto, and this feature is not as obvious, with the car more often remaining in its highest gear (4th) going downhill.
How many gears does the Pilot have? Also, I'd suppose the Pilot is less likely to pick up speed going downhill, with more drag from the all-wheel drive system, the larger tires, and the boxier shape.
It shouldn't have to be. My Trailblazer has remote 1 and 2 which when pushed remembers the seat settings, radio, mirrors, brake/gas pedal postion. There is no reason in this day and age they couldn't program the tranny into that skeme also.
If cameo's car is indeed an 07, I'll move 'em back. I gotta deal with what's presented and it's possible he/she bought a demo or something that for whatever reason had been never titled - perhaps because it had all the issues he/she reported. :surprise:
I didn't pay attention though that you chimed in, thinking instead it was toyacc responding with a comment comparing his Camry to a Pilot.
I have no answer about hesitation, because I've only driven one 2007 Camry 4-cylinder briefly, and of course the one I drove didn't hesitate (but it was brand new at the time).
If you have a 4-cylinder, then I have the exact same 2005 model car, also purchased new, now with almost 16K miles.
1. "Constant" shifts occur because it has a 5-speed automatic (5 forward gears, not 4 as the dealer erroneously said). More gears = more shifts. Theoretically, this provides better fuel economy and performance. Ironically, my '04 Camry LE 4 with the older 4-speed auto gets better mileage overall, under the same conditions!
The V6 has a new 6-speed automatic, with so-called "manumatic" capability -- you can easily shift the car manually if you so choose. But if you leave it in Drive, it will shift automatically just like any "regular" auto transmission.
2. Something may be amiss. What is your indicated idle speed?
On my '04, I did the following today: Started the car at 5 pm after it was sitting all day at work. Drove up the 0.4-mile long driveway of my workplace and made a full stop on the level portion toward the end. I then let off the brake with the car in Drive. The car moved forward very slowly, with the speedo never budging from zero and the tach indicating 800 rpm, slightly higher than idle speed when the car is fully warm.
3. There is no car made that can resist gravity. If the grade is steep enough, the car will accelerate, even if the cruise dials back the engine to idle speed (unless your idle speed is too high -- see no. 2). Otherwise, either brake or downshift manually to slow the car.
4. The XLE has 4-wheel disk brakes, and these respond much more readily than the front disk/rear drum setup on the older LE. On the latter, the pedal feel is softer and you have to press harder. Something may be amiss again.
5. I don't know what you mean by "pump-type" accelerator, but all Camrys from 2002 on use "throttle-by-wire": there's no mechanical linkage between the gas pedal and the engine, a good thing, in my view.
6. There is no difference in the suspension system between the LE and XLE -- only the SE has a stiffer suspension. This has been true since 2002.
btw: i don't think you can do this sort of "learning" / parameter optimization based on the FOB in use, as people often pass keychains, multiple drivers use the same FOB, and there are rentals, etc.
you might be able to do some fine-grain optimization longterm based on where a vehicle is driven (ambient temp and pressure), but because of multiple drivers, you have to learn and learn fast.