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Inconsiderate Drivers II (share your stories, etc.)

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  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,904
    ruking1 said:

    That is why NON/appropriate speed/s was/were used. On the normal daily commute, we’ve gone anywhere from 15 mph to 80 mph. Situationally, 15 mph might’ve been too fast, aka accident. 80 miles an hour might’ve been too slow, vice versa & in other combinations.

    The PIN (person in DEnial) use s/d non sequitur argument/s, as if preparing for the first grade school rehearsal debate. Yet, it’s inexplicable the PIN is in practice, that naïve!

    Now I’m OK with the fact that that may be ones’ opinion; that one may think it good for other people, but not for one.

    But as mentioned, the data is really quite clear. The government safety agencies have bemoaned the fact/myth that speed kills. Yet on the other hand, they can’t easily lie about the data. They will say that (non appropriate) speed is a dominate factor in about 20% - of fatalities/accidents. What they do leave OUT is that the 80% + better fatalities/accident are in compliance @ posted speed limits or below.

    Yet again data can be muddled. So for example, it is widely known that alcohol is involved in 40% of accidents fatalities. So (inappropriate) speed ( & other factors) can easily fall under the category of DWI. If modifying variables are really the cause, the 20% inappropriate speed can really be LESS; up to only 12%.

    Again, this is probably true in most major cities, but, in the LA metropolitan area: which is a HUGE bunch of real estate, the speed limit used to be 55 mph during the Nixon era. Naturally doom and gloom was forecasted if the speed limit EVER got to 60 miles an hour. So fast forward to 2019 and the speed limit of 65 mph with more normal speed is 75 to 85 mph the roads are SAFER than ever.

    12%? Actually, the Dept. of Transportation/NHTSA found, in a buried study because it doesn't fit the myth agenda, less than 5% are due to speed:

    http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/26/2627.asp

    Also, I'd argue speed is blamed far too much and far too widely precisely because a vast amount of miles driven by EVERYONE is above the speed limit, so naturally by the laws of numbers some accidents will occur at above the posted speed limit, particularly when that limit is under-posted causing far more than 15% to exceed it regularly.

    I've also seen studies that use the premise "IF YOU HAVE ACCIDENT" or "WHEN YOU HAVE AN ACCIDENT" to mislead about plain physics. Yes, crashing at 100 MPH is worse than 50 MPH! However, one should think about the likelihood of a crash at 100 MPH vs. 50 MPH before accepting the premise, if and when.

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again; Air travel really points this phenomenon out as they routinely travel at 500 MPH with a better safety record than vehicular travel.

    For example, one should care about a 25 MPH speed limit on a road causing 100 accidents per million miles traveled. If a 35 MPH speed limit on that same road caused only 10 accidents to happen in the same million mile sample, then you'd have to prove that accidents at 35 MPH were 10X as deadly! If you can't, you are murdering people with your 25 MPH speed limit!
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,904
    PF_Flyer said:

    Not sure what is in the water around here, but SOMETHING is making drivers (and I use the term loosely) consider red lights to just be suggestions. And I can't just throw the "cell phone blanket" over them either. Most of the time it's just, "I want to turn/cross at the intersection, here I come".

    Being on high alert is tiring :@

    In CA a red light violation will run you over $550. That probably makes red-light running in CA less common than in other parts of the world.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited January 24
    andres3 said:

    ruking1 said:

    That is why NON/appropriate speed/s was/were used. On the normal daily commute, we’ve gone anywhere from 15 mph to 80 mph. Situationally, 15 mph might’ve been too fast, aka accident. 80 miles an hour might’ve been too slow, vice versa & in other combinations.

    The PIN (person in DEnial) use s/d non sequitur argument/s, as if preparing for the first grade school rehearsal debate. Yet, it’s inexplicable the PIN is in practice, that naïve!

    Now I’m OK with the fact that that may be ones’ opinion; that one may think it good for other people, but not for one.

    But as mentioned, the data is really quite clear. The government safety agencies have bemoaned the fact/myth that speed kills. Yet on the other hand, they can’t easily lie about the data. They will say that (non appropriate) speed is a dominate factor in about 20% - of fatalities/accidents. What they do leave OUT is that the 80% + better fatalities/accident are in compliance @ posted speed limits or below.

    Yet again data can be muddled. So for example, it is widely known that alcohol is involved in 40% of accidents fatalities. So (inappropriate) speed ( & other factors) can easily fall under the category of DWI. If modifying variables are really the cause, the 20% inappropriate speed can really be LESS; up to only 12%.

    Again, this is probably true in most major cities, but, in the LA metropolitan area: which is a HUGE bunch of real estate, the speed limit used to be 55 mph during the Nixon era. Naturally doom and gloom was forecasted if the speed limit EVER got to 60 miles an hour. So fast forward to 2019 and the speed limit of 65 mph with more normal speed is 75 to 85 mph the roads are SAFER than ever.

    12%? Actually, the Dept. of Transportation/NHTSA found, in a buried study because it doesn't fit the myth agenda, less than 5% are due to speed:

    http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/26/2627.asp

    Also, I'd argue speed is blamed far too much and far too widely precisely because a vast amount of miles driven by EVERYONE is above the speed limit, so naturally by the laws of numbers some accidents will occur at above the posted speed limit, particularly when that limit is under-posted causing far more than 15% to exceed it regularly.

    I've also seen studies that use the premise "IF YOU HAVE ACCIDENT" or "WHEN YOU HAVE AN ACCIDENT" to mislead about plain physics. Yes, crashing at 100 MPH is worse than 50 MPH! However, one should think about the likelihood of a crash at 100 MPH vs. 50 MPH before accepting the premise, if and when.

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again; Air travel really points this phenomenon out as they routinely travel at 500 MPH with a better safety record than vehicular travel.

    For example, one should care about a 25 MPH speed limit on a road causing 100 accidents per million miles traveled. If a 35 MPH speed limit on that same road caused only 10 accidents to happen in the same million mile sample, then you'd have to prove that accidents at 35 MPH were 10X as deadly! If you can't, you are murdering people with your 25 MPH speed limit!
    The link that you give actually points to a very scary reason: “loss of control”. It’s really not lost of control. It’s actually more times than not, GIVING UP control.
  • tjc78tjc78 South JerseyPosts: 8,686
    Would you at least agree that depending on the situation and circumstances, slower could be less safe, and vice versa, faster could be less safe

    In general terms, yes.  

    I am certainly not in the camp of “speed kills” and everyone should drive 55... just think we all need to be realistic and at some point there is a safety issue driving too far above the limit.  If anything because there are so many poor drivers that you have to look out for!





    2017 Buick Enclave / 2017 Hyundai Elantra (for a little longer) / 2019 Volvo S60 T6 Inscription

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited January 24
    Many “poor drivers”, aka alledged “good” drivers” do not include themselves in that characterization. So no, a good percentage of the accident % are not realistic. There is even less percentage of accidents driving above the limit. So it is indeed a strawman argument.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 47,913
    It seems from my anecdotal observation that bad drivers think of themselves as the opposite simply because they aren't always crashing into things.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited January 25
    LOl! UNTIL.... they do (anecdotally)!

    I’m not sure if I should make this clear, or not. In any one accident caused by a “bad driver” , the other side/driver can normally safely be called not @ fault or still a good driver. Anecdotally, very few bad drivers take out (only) other bad drivers or self eliminate. Example, drunk hits drunk, drunk driver or drunks killed.

    Those that that drive with no to without proper insurance by (DEFACTO) definition elect themselves to the “BAD driver category.

    In CA, it’s estimated 25% to 30% of cars/drivers carry no to little proper insurance. I’m just guessing that the other 49 states, et al, are similar or not far behind. (50 states: 221.7 M licensed drivers) https://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

    So those that drive thinking THINGS on the roads are “SAFE”, to having expectations the 1st world folks drive better, albeit safer; are naive or at best delusional. I wonder out loud what % folks with that attitude add to the pool?

    Indeed, I would argue the first (goal) order of business is to never, ever be a victim, or involved.

    Indeed it is almost laughable (his city?) that dah mayor (of a very big a big metropolitan CA, city app 1.99 M) was involved in an accident: his bicycle allegedly hit by a car (SUV, probably driven by a valued illegal & probably with no insurance?) and broke a lot of his body parts.
    https://www.bizjournals.com/sanjose/news/2019/01/02/san-jose-mayor-liccardo-hospitalized-bike-crash.html
  • fintailfintail Posts: 47,913
    Bicycling on many roads around me is Russian roulette. Same for motorcycling. No thanks, I am too old for it, all I can think of is physical and financial pain when the bills from our wonderful care system come due.

    The illegal/SUV conjecture is pretty whiny and inappropriate IMO, par for the course for the lucky generation who cashed in on that economy I suppose.

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited January 25
    Para #2, That’s total conjecture, for “the cloud over head of “Charlie Brown set. But thanks! 👍life is good! The economy’s here are extremely diverse, robust & forecasted to do better! It’s one of the reasons why the political side is trying to shake it down, ... mafia style.

    It is amazing that that federal agency does NOT track bicycle fatalities and injuries. My take is bike transportation is @ least epidemicslly dangerous as motorcycle driving.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,592
    edited January 25
    Ya think? Let's compare two-wheeled vehicles with lots of power that run at approximately traffic speed (with serious helmets [can we say Snell?]) to two-wheeled vehicles running at 15-20 mph or less. I've done both motorcycles (for 5 years my only vehicle) and bicycles on the street -- no comparison. I no longer do either. The bicycling I do is on dedicated paths and/or in locations far from the city.

    It''s a Darwin thing.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited January 25
    A roommate in college traveled all over Europe with his sister and her then boyfriend for two summers. ( Triumph 650’s his sister & bf did the sidecar drill) He kept one motorcycle and at times we used to get around: no helmets no jackets, no boots kind of riding. To interject the important part, no incidents.
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 13,000
    And, really what these examples illustrate is that the actual risk associated with these activities is extremely low. However, it only takes once.... So, do the math and make the choice, but realize that it *is* a choice made.
    2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2008 and 2013 Subaru Forester(s), 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited January 26
    Indeed, there are instances where it CAN ONLY take once! The saying even 60 years ago, it’s not IF you drop the bike, it is WHEN.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 47,913
    I'd ride a bike in Germany over here any day of the week. I have much more faith in fellow road users in areas where there are actual standards for getting a license.

    One no-lighter this evening, an older Highlander, so maybe without automatic lights.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited January 26
    Must concede the irony, expecting INXS of 109,000 + miles on new ‘shoes” ( UTQG 800, MB GLK 250 BT) running in the worst commute traffic and road situations, in the nation. The old set (oem run-flats, UTQG 200) got slightly short of 76,000 miles @ 3/32 in left. 😉
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 13,000
    You're rolling that odometer red hot! I am at about 81,500 on the Q7. Ironically, the winter tires (Yokohama IG-51v) are wearing incredibly well, but the all-seasons are not. After only two summers and maybe 15,000 miles, they are nearing ready for replacement. I'm hoping to squeak this year out of them, and I might if I'm willing to take them down to 2/32nd. I usually replace with 4/32 for the summer tires and 6-7/32 for winter.
    2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2008 and 2013 Subaru Forester(s), 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited January 26
    There are a lot of TMI’s in favor of posting INXS of 109,000 miles. If folks are interested, I can post. So for example, for maximum wear and appropriateness, three to four sets of wheels are necessary. (old, new, different sized sets, winter set) That for me is more than TMI enough & $$’s.

    All we’re doing is avoiding hitting concrete curb sides and bumpers, 3 psi above placard, 5,000 miles rotations, torque to spec wheel nuts..
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    ruking1 said:

    There are a lot of TMI’s in favor of posting INXS of 109,000 miles. If folks are interested, I can post. So for example, for maximum wear and appropriateness, three to four sets of wheels are necessary. (old, new, different sized sets, winter set) That for me is more than TMI enough & $$’s.

    All we’re doing is avoiding hitting concrete curb sides and bumpers, 3 psi above placard, 5,000 miles rotations, torque to spec wheel nuts..

    We continue to avoid potholes and debris.

  • andres3andres3 Southern CAPosts: 10,904
    fintail said:

    It seems from my anecdotal observation that bad drivers think of themselves as the opposite simply because they aren't always crashing into things.

    The bar is quite low with some people. Still, I'd take not crashing into things as as valuable indicator of driving skill, if over a period of many miles and many years. Not a whole indicator, but a good one. I've heard a person admit they were not a good driver, and I think it was due to having 3 at-fault accidents by the age of 21.
    '16 Audi TTS quattro 2.0T, '15 Audi A4 quattro 2.0T, '16 Kia Optima LX 1.6T
  • fintailfintail Posts: 47,913
    At fault accidents are definitely a sign. The "not crashing" thing can just be others dodging the oblivious, but I suppose if it goes for 20 or more years, there is more to it than luck.

    This seems like a sketchy claim based on what I see on the road here

    Just yesterday I got blindly cut off by a typical eastside drone in a Lexus GS. I was in the fintail (how does one not see that car?) and I just laid on the horn. That car has a very loud horn.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited January 28
    I’ve literally not had an “@ fault “accident. (52.5 yrs. driving career)

    Most UN upgraded oem horns sound pretty wimpy. So how my horns are currently used, an inexpensive upgrade is not worth the time nor expense or performance improvement.

    For some reason, your 2nd para reminded me of an accident, a legally parked 87 TLC. While in a store, I heard an awful crashing sound (my guess, hit gas NOT brakes) I looked out the stores window to see a late model BMW 5 series rear end up against the 1987 Toyota Landcruiser’s rear end with Smitty Bilt rear tube/push bumpers. On closer examination, the BMW seemed to have sustained approximately $5,000 of damage. The TLC seemed to have a bumper powder coat paint smudge. The driver asked if the car was mine, whereby I nodded. She commenced to say she would not have hit the car,
    IF its’ front wheels were touching the concrete stop bumpers. So I looked @ her (probably incredulously) and said I’d remove the damage she caused with rubbing compound, then walked away.
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 13,000
    fintail said:

    At fault accidents are definitely a sign. The "not crashing" thing can just be others dodging the oblivious, but I suppose if it goes for 20 or more years, there is more to it than luck.

    Yes, I suspect that the results of that study are based on rate of failure, which might simply mean that the quality of drivers on the road (e.g., those that are teaching the ones out to get a license) is poor in general. :D
    2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2008 and 2013 Subaru Forester(s), 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 15,398
    ruking1 said:
    The driver asked if the car was mine, whereby I nodded. She commenced to say she would not have hit the car, ifs’ front wheels were touching the concrete stop bumpers. So I looked @ her (probably incredulously) and said I’d remove the damage she caused with rubbing compound, then walked away.
    Wait, how would your front tires touching the stop bumper have stopped her for mistaking the gas for the brake?

    2008 Sebring Ragtop, 2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited January 28
    👍😜 To me, ...totally inexplicable !

    Idid get the license plate # & descriptions, in case of false hit/run claim: she claiming “VICTIM” with me as RUN.

    I also am aware of the concept that: “ no good deed goes Unpunished”.

    No real need to think and act like the apocalypse is here. As I have been saying all along it is the safest it’s ever been ? https://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/general-statistics/topicoverview
  • fintailfintail Posts: 47,913
    That makes perfect sense. Drive around Seattle for a day, your head will spin.

    Now that the process is virtually privatized now, I also have suspicions that licenses are effectively for sale, if not directly, then by paying for a certain amount of tests or classes - not that the tests themselves are difficult compared to other developed countries.
    xwesx said:


    Yes, I suspect that the results of that study are based on rate of failure, which might simply mean that the quality of drivers on the road (e.g., those that are teaching the ones out to get a license) is poor in general. :D

  • tjc78tjc78 South JerseyPosts: 8,686
    Four spots... nice job 


    2017 Buick Enclave / 2017 Hyundai Elantra (for a little longer) / 2019 Volvo S60 T6 Inscription

  • fintailfintail Posts: 47,913
    That's what the "4" means in "FX4" B)

    Just above freezing here this morning, and although the humidity doesn't seem high - clear skies, my street was slathered in de-icer, to the point where it looked like it might have rained a little. I saw it on no other roads, and funny thing, at the bottom of my hill is a bridge, which had no de-icer at all. Makes sense, as bridges don't freeze early or anything, it's just slight hills you have to watch out for.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited January 29
    Just shaking my head here! Is it Ford’s (of late) $1,295. attempt @ turning S—- into shine-nola? If I remember correctly Ford also uses “off road” Rancho instead of crappy oem shocks.
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 13,000
    A couple of interesting sightings/events tonight. I have this cheap little portable dashcam in my Q7 right now, as I was testing it for an upcoming trip on which we will take it for the rental car.

    First was this gem: Jeep wrangler is coming onto the highway from an on-ramp and decides to go from merge lane to middle lane. You can see in the video that the right lane is sparsely used here, as it merges with the middle lane a little further up the road, but rather than use the clearing that other vehicles use, this guy decides to just jump the berm in his amped up Jeep, which promptly slows him down, and nearly puts him into the side of my Q7.



    2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2008 and 2013 Subaru Forester(s), 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 13,000
    Second sighting was a pickup that had wedged itself in the ditch on the wrong side of the highway. A whole gang of people, including a trooper, had stopped to assist. The guy attempting to recover the pickup was using a flat recovery strap, so it is not likely he was successful on the attempt.

    I considered stopping and offering the use of my kinetic rope, which would have yanked the guy out no problem, but with so many on site, I figured the last thing needed was another cook in that kitchen!



    2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2008 and 2013 Subaru Forester(s), 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup
This discussion has been closed.