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Comments
As matter of fact, the current RX350 loaded has a MSRP of $56,155. A loaded RX400h will run you about $53,675. But of course, I think majority of the RX350 on the road are around mid to high $40K MSRP.
Just for comparison purpose, the new Highlander (which the new RX will be based on) comes loaded has the following MSRP:
Limited 4x4: $43K
I can easily see Lexus charges another $20K for the RX.
Like you said, yeah Lexus is going upmarket these days.
I know the size of the new Accord does disappoint me. But having said that I still cant think of a more sensible car to buy at that price.
Ever since I was in my early twenties I alway test drove a Honda Accord. It is a ritual I will keep and soon I will test drive the new Accord (no intent to buy one but just curious).
If I ever purchased a car with the sensible right side of my brain I would always buy a Honda Accord. Apparently the left side of my brain always wins and chooses a BMW or back in the 80s an Acura Integra instead.
I knew you would like that post.
That is why I had addressed it personally to you.
The Altima is supposed to provide a bit more fun in this category.
So long as I am a living vibrant human being who enjoys having fun and not under the influence of my wife's potent rum cake, the choice for me will always be BMW.
Nothing matches BMW sedans for performance and practicality. Include the much copied aggressive, macho Chris Bangle styling, and BMW sedans are absolutely irresistible to me. They are true mens' cars. :shades:
It has been 2 weeks now and I haven't changed my mind on my next vehicle yet. What's wrong with me? :surprise:
You do know that this 39 motnh Canadian $398 deal does involve a 5K dollar down payment? In total without taxes the payments would be equal to almost 50% of its MSRP.
In fact when I sold my 8 year old BMW323i I realized 40 percent of its MSRP.
A 50 percent hit in a bit more than 3 years does sounds like a bummer of a deal to me.
But that is highly irrelevant since I always end up picking BMWs. :shades:
328i with auto, premium package, metallic paint
MSRP 47600
Residual 30500 (low mileage lease)
Up front due for PDI, freight various taxes and a 700 refundable deposit equal to 3K
Mthly payment 607 for 39 mths based on 3.9 lease rate.
I know that anybody in Toronto can park cash in GIC for a little over 5% over this period as well. This would effectively negate the interest portion of the lease payments and any part of the up front payment that is not taxes, fees or deposit.
So it looks like I am paying for roughly 36% of the vehicle MSRP over the 39 mths lease (47600-30500)/47600
Do check my numbers to see if it makes sense the way I see it.
Infiniti and Lexus leases for comparable MSRP are not even close. MB was close but they did not have much selection left for 2007.
Cayenne from the very beginning was a Crossover isn't it? Just like the X5 and MDX.
That's what I'm saying, rather than build their own unibody SUV designed for their customers who will never use the off road ability like the Q7 and GL, they are going the easy way and borrowing Toyota's big trucks. That approach isn't sustainable, nobody wants massive body on frame trucks anymore.
Cayenne and Toureg are unibody, but they are saddled with 1000lbs. worth of off-road gear that makes them far more capable than the "soft-road" X5 or MDX. The problem is nobody uses or wants that.
I just prefer paying cash for my cars since I've had no problems selling them. I believe you can get some pretty good cash deals on a BMW 328.
My own experiences selling BMWs combined with the Canadian Red Book indicates BMW 3 series resale values are among the highest in Canada. That is why buying one makes more sense IMO.
I got 40% percent of MSRP after 8 years of driving. That is only about a 7.5 depreciation rate. Phenemonal although there are no guarantees that I will realize such a high resale from my BMW 335i. But still I know that buying my BMW versus leasing one will make economic sense in the end since I am confident that twin turbo BMWs will still be hot in the used car market a few years hence.
Revision: I'd pick a Infiniti G35x over a BMW 328i any day. It is much more car for the money and in fact should cost more money than a 328i.
Also if you do buy a 328i then do buy snow tires. I stubbornly drove my BMW 323i with all seasons during many winters and ended up quite a few times depending on a few Good Samraritans to shovel my car out of parking lots.
Driving BMWs with snow tires even during the stormiest of storms has not been a problem for me. And during summer I always look forward to spring when I can slap my 18 inch tires on. It makes a hell of a difference.
mmmkay......
I have to disagree about the GS300 3.OL being gutless. For everyday normal driving it certainly seemed to have enough power. I am not into drag racing, etc. and, in general, I think the HP wars have passed beyond ridiculous.
I think cars like MB 65 AMGs are rediculous, but if I remember right, the GS300 AWD was an over 7-second 0-60 car, making it no faster than a 1993 GS300, which had just 25 fewer horses. That isn't progress. I'm not a drag racer either, but when it comes to situations like passing on a two-lane, 245hp and 230ft.lbs doesn't cut it in a car that big.
Hmmmmm, for different reasons than others, I'm guessing.
"Original" LS implies there was ever another one. Sadly. . .
One needs to be an LS pinhead to tell the differences among the pre- & post-2003 models. To most, they all look the same.
Anyway, it's nice to see the car mentioned in any context.
It is much quicker to 60. Lexus claims 6.9...
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Ridiculous excess is what defines most cars in the highest end of the luxury segment.
What exotic or overpowered performance vehicle is not ridiculous? Which Rolls Royce with its interior fit and finish overkill is not ridiculous?
I just spent quite a few dollar bills on a Automatic movement Swiss Watch that is less accurate than a $5 Quartz watch. That IMO is ridiculous (at least I confess it's ridiculous) but than again luxury is the the exact opposite of sensible.
So now it's about comparing to the BMW 535, 750 and seeing which I like best and the price difference. I think the 535 will be the cheapest and then a jump up by about 100-200 per month for the Jag and then another 100-200 for the 7.
Maybe under perfect conditions and with brake-torquing. In any case, 0-60 is only part of it, and actually in real life situations, 0-60 is largely meaningless. I've never had to merge onto a busy highway starting from 0 mph, or pass on a two-lane starting from 0 mph. When I want to get from 30 or 40mph to 70 or 80mph right now, I want an engine thats up for the job. From what I remember driving the GS300, that kind of grunt was MIA.
Even if you absolutely hate the M or the S80, I just don't see any reason to settle for a GS300. The GS350 is just as fuel efficient, and the power will be there if you ever need it.
I just spent quite a few dollar bills on a Automatic movement Swiss Watch that is less accurate than a $5 Quartz watch. That IMO is ridiculous (at least I confess it's ridiculous) but than again luxury is the the exact opposite of sensible.
You are right, but there are some differences between mega-powered cars. The AMG 65 engine is so strong that even with its proverbial wings clipped, cars like the SL are still completely unable to deal with all that power and torque and the traction computers have to constantly fight with the engine all the way to the 155mph limiter, the same as a lowly SL550. That's ridiculous.
The Pagani Zonda on the other hand was designed to handle its AMG V-12, which makes it slightly more reasonable.
As for watches, what else can men wear? My wife has her earrings, her necklaces, her bracelets, and her rings. I can't wear any of that stuff. A man's watch has nothing to do with telling time. My "everyday" watch is a Zenith Class Open, and I have a Jaeger-LeCoultre for "special occasions". My cell phone gets the time from AT&T, and unlike my very expensive Swiss automatics, its never wrong. The watches are just decoration. Spending BMW 3 series money on a Reverso Tourbillon, that would be ridiculous.
The 3 Series has been creeping up in size. I want the sedan for practicality, but if the 335d comes here next year and it is only available as a coupe, I will get it.
A BMW rocket achieving 40 mpg would fit under the description of "Treat Yourself" very well indeed, Tony!
May we always drive nothing less than the greatest sedans/coupes in the world... BMWs.
Cheers! :shades:
Hmmmm....from cars to fashion accessories, interesting. Never owned a watch as there are literally millions of people wearing them for my benefit:)should I need to know the time. Or maybe I could look at my cell phone, blackberry, etc...As you say, " A mans watch has nothing to do with telling time.,,,I agree, it's jewelry. Do you mix and match your watches to the color of your ascot?:)
As I mentioned earlier, I have no plans to buy a car in the near future, just idle speculation. I am trying to wait on the new wave of diesels.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Thanks for your HELP!
No, the Zenith is black on black, it goes with everything
I gotcha. Hopefully at least one diesel CUV will be available by the time our X3 lease is up. My wife would like to do better than the 22 or so mpg she gets, but she's not willing to sacrifice the driving position for the extra mpg.
I am curious of your experiences with the 3rd-generation GS versus the 2nd-generation GS. In my limited experience with the new GS, I have found that I prefer the 2nd-generation overall. It is not likely that I would replace my GS430 with any of the current GS models; I'd rather have the Infiniti M or BMW 5-series if I wanted another midsize luxury sedan.
The steering seems a bit lighter in the current GS versus my car (not the direction that I really want to go). I also prefer the exterior and interior of my car over the 3rd generation, although I do like them both. I am not sure if the ride/handling balance is improved on the 3rd-generation, as this has been a definite weakness of the GS versus its midsize competition; while it has a good and enjoyable balance, the BMW 5-series, MB E-class, and Audi A6 have usually delivered a great ride/handling balance that easily surpasses the GS.
As you and maybe a couple of others have expressed, I am disappointed that Lexus is not putting more effort into the GS - especially considering how long it took for them to bring the current GS to the market.
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You could not even hope to find a 2004 Lexus LS430 in that price range at this time, even though the LS had a sticker price that was thousands of dollars below the XJ8.
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The BMW 530i (now 535i) also has great real-world resale value:
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The BMW 745 (now 750) does great for a $70K+ luxury sedan, but cars over that price point generally do not hold their value as well as less-expensive cars (like the LS and 5-series):
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The BMW 535i, starting around $50K, will most certainly be the least expensive to lease or buy among the vehicles that you are considering.
The 535 that I would consider is around 60K since I like it loaded up (I'm used to the features on the LS430 so I'm not willing to give up my great stereo or nav etc). The question for me now is if the price difference on a 5 vs a 7 is small enough to take the plunge for the 7. I don't need the Li so the absolute increase in interior size is really not that much on the 750i vs the 5er but it does drive like a much larger car. I tested a 7 today but they only had the sport suspension model and it rode a little too rough for me. Funny that on the 550i I tested, I didn't mind the SP at all but it seemed a bit out of place on the 7 to me. I guess my expectations were different for each car. As a total aside, I had the chance to experience HD radio and it was amazing. I probably would never listen to it over sat radio because you still have all of those commercials (I had a hard time finding music!) but the sound was pristine. That logic 7 is a great system and to my ear sounds better than the vaunted Mark Levinson that I have in my LS 430.
If I remember correctly your current LS is leased. What year is it and do you know what you could buy the car for? Will Lexus dicker at all on the price they offer you? Thanks for any comments.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Sure! The lease price on the 7-series may be lower than what you are currently paying for your LS 430; you will probably save money by going with either BMW - it's just a matter of how much. If you are used to a full-size luxury sedan and want to continue driving such a vehicle, there is really no truly compelling reason for you to move down to a mid-size luxury sedan. Both the 5 and 7 are luxury vehicles and there is no reason to half-step when it comes to luxury - get the one that best suits your needs.
I have suggested the 535i since it makes the most "sense" out of the luxurious vehicles that you are choosing from, but it sounds like you connect more with the non-SP 750i.
While practically everyone would enjoy saving $200-$300 per month on their monthly vehicle expenses, we all could continue on with trying to save money until this exercise reaches its logical conclusion - leasing a Honda Civic/Fit for less than $200 per month or not even owning a vehicle at all.
The main benefits that you will realize by selecting a 535i are mostly financial (lease payment and fuel costs, etc.), based on what YOU are looking for in your next vehicle; the 750i appears to be the winner for you in practically all other areas.
If you want to step up even more, the local Bentley dealer advertised a Continental GT lease special of "only" about $2799 per month earlier this year (possibly $2699 or $2599, but no less than that from what I recall). You will save almost $1800 per month by choosing a non-SP 750i over a Bentley Continental GT! The 750i looks like a great value now!
I would probably agree that the 2nd gen car had better steering, especially on the GS430 as the new 430's variable-ratio system obliterates any semblance of road feel.
I'm surprised that you prefer the exterior and interior of the 2nd gen car though. The first gen GS was somewhat bland on the outside, but the overall design at least made sense. On the second gen car though, they lost me. What was the point of the two-piece taillights? Why did the car have absolutely enormous wheel arches and teeny tiny 16" wheels? Why a boy-racer rear wing? Couldn't they have integrated something slightly classier? Other than the split headlights, I think the new GS is much more of a styling update to gen 1 than gen 2.
The interior of the second gen I thought was actually a giant step backward from gen 1. Lexus interior design really seemed to stink from '98-00. On the list of worst ever Lexus interiors, I would rank the '99 RX as #1, and the '98 GS as #2. The previous generation Mercedes E Class and Audi A6 interiors absolutely blew the GS out of the water. It was almost embarrassing how bad it was compared to the Merc and Audi.
The new car's interior is at least class competitive. It's certainly not my favorite, but it isn't bad. The problem I have with the new car isn't the looks or the interior materials, its the bad, cramped packaging, and the mini-LS ride and handling. The GS isn't supposed to be a RWD ES, its supposed to be a sports sedan, and there's no sport to be found. That's why I like the S80, its a better GS than the GS.
He currently leases a 2004 Lexus LS 430. While it has been mechanically flawless, he desires a vehicle with more involving driving dynamics. Additionally, the lease payments for a LS 460 represent a significant jump over what he is currently paying for his LS 430, but he does not believe that the LS 460 feels different or improved enough over the LS 430 to make the LS 460 worth so much more over the LS 430 on a monthly basis. He is currently looking at either the BMW 7-series, 5-series, or the Jaguar XJ8 to replace the LS 430 at lease-end.
Wow! I couldn't have said it better myself!
Maybe I already did.
Anyway, you summed it up very well. Only new development is that after another long test in the Jag, I've ruled it out. While I still think it's a nice car, I believe that I'd probably get bored with it like I did with the LS 430. And there is a bit too much Ford that shows through. Now the Bentley mentioned above would be right up my alley in GT version. I think it's the most beautiful car on the planet. Only two small obstacles: one is that I would really feel guilty at 10 mpgs and the other is that added to the high monthly payment would be lawyers fees for my divorce
I did not like the '98-'05 GS at first, but it eventually grew on me and now I really like it; I appreciate the exterior of the new GS, but I have grown too fond of the styling of the 2nd-generation and the 17" wheels help to close that large wheel well gap that we both have noticed. I agree that the current GS looks more like the original GS than the 2nd-generation. The cockpit of the 2nd-generation has a very intimate (but not small) feel that is very inviting and fits me like a glove; I did not get this feeling when I experienced the 3rd-generation GS and, therefore, prefer the interior of the 2nd-generation GS.
It is very unfortunate that Lexus does not offer a factory sport package on the GS that at least makes it comparable to a base 5-series or the base M35 in steering and handling. Although the current GS feels sportier than the ES, this really does not mean much because the ES is far too plush feeling to have even a modicum of sport anywhere in its DNA. The current GS looks sporty, but it definitely would be a stretch to call it a sports sedan.
I also really like the S80; too bad I am not looking for another midsize luxury sedan. I am looking to downsize like HPowders and 2001GS430.
Lexus interior designers seemed to start chasing after Mercedes and Audi with the LS, ES, SC, and RX of '01-'04. Now they are going back in your direction, particularly with the new ES and IS. The latest LS on the other hand has an interior that makes me think of Jaguar, or at least what Jag was about up until the XF.
The fact that the GS is such a bland driving experience makes me think that a GS-F will probably fail in the marketplace. The progression from 550i Sport to M5 or A6 4.2 S-line to S6 makes sense. A hypothetical model above the M45 Sport would probably also work. A GS-F buyer though - if the GS-F is to be a true German tuner car fighter, should hate the regular GS models. It doesn't make much sense, which makes me think that the GS-F will not be anything like the M5 or even the E63. It will probably just be a GS with more horsepower, and I'm not sure anybody wants that. Just ask the guys that did the Volvo R cars.
2005 545i moderately well-loaded: $58,525 MSRP.
2007 335i sedan well-loaded: $58,369 MSRP.
I just checked Ebay (as you suggested) and not a single 2004 LS 430 with average mileage (less than 50,000 miles and still under the factory bumper-to-bumper warranty) is available for less than $30,000 anywhere within 200 miles of my area.
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The closest LS 430 to meet that criteria is priced at $28,950 and was driven a whopping 17,520 miles per year (according to the Carfax report), for a grand total of roughly 56K miles in just over 3 years. The other 2 are also just above $28,000, but have roughly 64K and 67K miles - the powertrain warranty expires at 70K.
You also mentioned the trade-in value of your vehicle, but I was referring to the retail value of the LS 430 - there is a significant spread in those values for these types of vehicles.
My point was actually about the real-world resale value of the LS 430 versus the Jaguar XJ8; the poster that I replied to is not actually looking to purchase another LS 430 or trade his LS430 in since he leases the vehicle. My point is that the XJ8 sold for more than the LS 430 when new, but commands less on the used-car market than the LS 430. The real-world resale value of the Jaguar XJ8 would make it a poor candidate for leasing; it is doubtful that Jaguar would be able to subsidize the lease of the XJ8 enough for the monthly payment to be comparable to the lease rates of the LS 430 (the poster's current vehicle) or the BMW 5- and 7-series (vehicles that the poster is considering).
Assuming the carfax checks out and no other problems, what do you think?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I actually like every Lexus interior (to varying degrees) that has been on the market; I am fond of all of the interiors of the vehicles that you mentioned. The Optitron gauges and the overall control design and layout, among other things, give Lexus interiors a modern appearance that I enjoy. By contrast, the VW Phaeton and the Jaguar XJ8 have interiors that do not appear to be particularly modern to me and I am nearly disturbed when I even see interior pictures of those two vehicles.
I agree about the GS-F; I am not too optimistic. I don't understand why Lexus would create such a vehicle when you cannot even order a significantly better-handling stock GS from the factory at present. You should not have to accept all of those cosmetic "enhancements" to get a better-handling GS.
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I put in a Kansas City zip code of 35573 and I only selected the Nav/Mark Levinson package; you will need to adjust it accordingly. I do not know about your experiences (or those of other posters), but KBB has been extremely accurate for my searches in my area. The local Carmax offered within $100 of the KBB "Good" condition trade-in value for my previous car (I went to CarMax to establish a floor for trade-in negotiations), and I purchased my GS 430 for somewhere between the KBB trade-in value and the KBB PPV from another local dealership. The KBB PPV is a reasonable price to pay, but I try to shoot somewhere right in the middle of the KBB "Good" trade-in value and the "Good" KBB PPV. That LS is priced around the KBB trade-in value, which is a great price. Has it been on the lot for a little while?
[Of course, you may need to plug in some figures that change the value equation]
No. However, one does get the 4 year "free" maintenance!
What a bargain!!
PS: As for myself, I would order a 335i sedan moderately-loaded at around $45k.
That would be my second choice if the 335d comes too late for me to consider.
Just a sleepy Sunday afternoon, and I wonder if you use your car every day? As for me the car has been parked the last two days....Just sitting and depreciating....It got cold up here in the mountains also Tony
I think they just got it as I haven't seen it advertised before this weekend. I also thought the price looked pretty good. The one fly in the ointment is that the BMW dealer here does not have a very good reputation. I may check it out tomorrow.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
An SUV with the room of a sedan short-circuits my sensibilities. I think they're just hitchhiking onto this American desire to ride high off the ground. It's not bad looking though IMO. Kinda looks like a 3-series coupe on stilts.
Front looks mean. How could it not when it has a grill that looks like Hannibal Lecter's muzzle?
Let’s look at BMW grills. Quid pro quo, Clarice:
GRRRRRRRRRRR
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Very funny Tony! File that gem of wisdom under "sad but true".
That's why I never buy a vehicle, my man. I won't sink a big wad of cash into a depreciating asset unless I am executing a security short sale, such as with Countrywide Financial a while back.
I just lease 'em for no money down, no maintenance costs, collect my BMWCCA rebate for my "trouble" and turn 'em back over to BMW every several years.
It's tough driving a new BMW every 2-3 years, but as my friend Shipo would say, "Someone's got to do it."
Just sitting and slowly oxidizing, waiting for my date with the inevitable 335d or 335i next summer on a slow, Sunday afternoon.
A true kidney eater of a joke.
This huge vehicle with space for only five will be for owners who have passengers that require extra space for certain seat belted yoga manuevers and whom favor being driven in high elevation since it reminds them of a Tibetan retreat. :confuse:
Definitely the X6 will be a niche product.