Are automobiles a major cause of global warming?

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  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Left wing? I am more worried about my tail feathers !!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The "pie in the sky" EV and PHEV proponents have envisioned 1000s of stations across the USA with charged up batteries ready to swap out and get you back on the road. Or a short stop to recharge your batteries. They may in the future defy the laws of physics. They still have to get the energy from somewhere. I like the idea of an EV in my driveway ready to zip down the 3 miles to the store. I am not so naive as to think they will have any in my lifetime that will carry me across the country.

    I can just hear some guy talking to his wife. I hope we can make it to Arizona where they have cheap coal generated electricity before we need to recharge this battery. :shades:
  • tj6968tj6968 Member Posts: 23
    Global warming is happening, but that is is significantly influenced by our actions is a stretch. Either which way, we should be happy that Earth is in a period of warming and not in an Ice Age.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That sums it up. We have a long ways to go before it will be as warm as the MWP when there was farming in Iceland & Greenland. A fact that MM/CC folks wish did not exist. Some of the folks in the Northern climes would welcome a warming trend.

    The warm climate during the MWP allowed this great migration to flourish. Drift ice posed the greatest hazard to sailors but reports of drift ice in old records do not appear until the thirteenth century (Bryson, 1977.)

    The Norse peoples traveled to Iceland for a variety of reasons including a search for more land and resources to satisfy a growing population and to escape raiders and harsh rulers. One force behind the movement to Iceland in the ninth century was the ruthlessness of Harald Fairhair, a Norwegian King (Bryson, 1977.)

    Animal bones and other materials collected from archaeological sites reveal Icelandic Vikings had large farmsteads with dairy cattle (a source of meat), pigs, and sheep and goats (for wool, hair, milk, and meat.) Farmsteads also had ample pastures and fields of barley used for the making of beer and these farms were located near bird cliffs (providing meat, eggs, and eiderdown) and inshore fishing grounds. Fishing was primarily done with hand lines or from small boats that did not venture across the horizon (McGovern and Perdikaris, 2000.)


    Trying to solve possible problems 100 years in advance is a waste of money. We have plenty of problems that need immediate attention that are not being addressed by our Congress and Presidents.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    like these farmers might?

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/environment/2009-08-19-forest_N.htm

    I have 12 acres of land 11 of which are forested. So am I going to be able to sell my 11 acre-carbon-credits to local industry? :confuse:

    I'm fine with researchers investigating a theory and making models, but our reaction to the possibility of GW is now getting far beyond reason. The people who came up with this idea to convert farmland back to forest must be missing the fact that if food is not produced there, and we do export a lot of food, then a similar amount of increased food production must occur elsewhere!

    Reducing food production in 1 country does not reduce the demand of a growing global population. Forests will be cutdown in other areas of the world to makeup for U.S. reduced food production.

    All we (the U.S.) will do by reducing industrial production and food production is HURT OURSELVES. China and India will simply adjust and gain by continuing to grow industrially and in population, and other countries like Brazil, and Russia will increase their farmlands and production.

    You already can see that countries like Russia and China are very interested in claiming rights to areas where the U.S. is reluctant to drill for various reasons. If the U.S. and Europe both ceased to exist and emit any CO2, that does not change the course that the global population growth and usage of world resources is on.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,589
    The US and Europe ceasing to exist is a part of the plan.
  • rgould22rgould22 Member Posts: 21
    The 10 most expensive natural catastrophes in U.S. history have all occurred within the last 20 years. Hurricanes and other severe weather have cost insurers nearly a quarter of a trillion dollars in the last decade."

    I hope you aren't trying to make a connection between hurricanes and GW in this statement because according to your friends at NOAA

    From NOAA NEWS – Study: Better Observations, Analyses Detecting Short-Lived Tropical Systems

    A NOAA-led team of scientists has found that the apparent increase in the number of tropical storms and hurricanes since the late 19th and early 20th centuries is likely attributable to improvements in observational tools and analysis techniques that better detect short-lived storms.

    “The recent jump in the number of short-lived systems is likely a consequence of improvements in observational tools and analysis techniques,” said Chris Landsea, science and operations officer at NOAA’s National Hurricane Center in Miami, and lead author on the study. “The team is not aware of any natural variability or greenhouse warming-induced climate change that would affect the short-lived tropical storms exclusively.”
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    as far as EV re-charging stations go. However, the group working with Nissan has promised that Arizona between Phoenix and Tucson(and of course including Tucson in many places)will be part of a "test" program of re-charging station building. It sounds like Nissan wants to be a real EV "front-runner" in this field but it would be discriminatory of them to not wanna re-charge my BYD e6 in Tucson, wouldn't it?

    Oh, that's right, the BYD gets 249 miles on only one charge, If I'm not heading north to Phoenix then I won't need a re-charge in Tucson! Who's the pilot of this ship, anyway? :shades:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • avalon02whavalon02wh Member Posts: 785
    "We have a long ways to go before it will be as warm as the MWP when there was farming in Iceland & Greenland... Some of the folks in the Northern climes would welcome a warming trend."

    Some will, BUT, we better know the overall impact.

    http://www.bangordailynews.com/detail/116286.html
    "And property owners expressed little interest in digging deeply into their own pockets to mitigate the effects of climate change, preferring instead grants or for local towns to take the lead."

    I smell bailout. ;)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Why not? People along our coast try to get someone to pay when the tide washes more of the cliffs away or a house becomes unsafe due to erosion. That is the kind of government we have. They feel responsible to care for the poor ignorant souls. Though most of the people living in the USA that might be affected by rising oceans are far from poor.

    If the people in Maine are worried, sell while they got a chance. Once the house falls into the ocean it will be a hard sell to all but Californians.
  • avalon02whavalon02wh Member Posts: 785
    http://scrippsco2.ucsd.edu/home/index.php

    Probably wouldn't hurt for some people to review some of the great research that Keeling did in regards to CO2. :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Some people would do anything to get free trips to Hawaii. :shades:

    Being a plant person, I am not convinced that CO2 is bad for the planet. All plants really like CO2. I would think a graph over say a million years would be more useful. That graph does not even parallel what we know about sun spots and their impact on the weather. Saying man has no impact on the planet would be silly. Saying he is the major contributor to climate change is just as silly. Taxing people to death will not change anything.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    oh yeah, taxing me to death will take a large chunk of my "green investment" Al Gore kind of money away from me. And that makes me sad and mad all at the same time. :cry: :mad:

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    from the taxations due to the GW ists efforts....Numbers of poor, uninsured projected to increase


    As a side bar the Federal government is winding down its cash for gas guzzlers/polluters. It would seem even the Fed government doesnt believe its own GW hype, especially if it will cut down the petty cash (3billion) they get to play with.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    The global warming studies may be having some payoffs eh?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well... the NAVY has known the benefits of running nuclear powered carriers for more than 50 years? It takes them another 50 +plus years to figure out that the carrier would have absolutely MASSIVE fighting as well as logistical advantages (not to mention almost exponential and unbelievable COST savings !!!!!!! ), if jet fuel didn't have to be on loaded and off loaded from afar... and literally can be "processed, refined", etc., ON DEMAND, underway either on the carrier or one of carrier "tenders" !!???? I truly don't know what to say. :lemon:

    It is a bit like this thread, or,.... why there are so very few diesel passenger cars (2%) vs massive RUG to PUG of 98%. 24 mpg on RUG to pug is better than 50 mpg !!! Makes all the sense to me!!! :lemon:
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,343
    "...How to turn seawater into jet fuel..."

    And how will they power the conversion since it uses more energy than it produces?

    Maybe they can cover the deck with solar panels. That will make the carrier useless for combat so the greenies will be doubly pleased. ;)

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    As they would answer in Jeopardy, What is a nuclear powered (air craft carrier) ship?
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    As I said before there really is no reason that the combustion products of the combustion of oil and gasoline could not be reversed. Specifically you can take water, CO2, or even CO, and using a lot of energy and catalysts that you can't reform the hydrocarbon molecules that you burnt in the 1st place.

    The whole trick is having enough energy to power the plants around the world to scrub the atmosphere of the molecules like CO2 that you don't want and reform them. But then if we had that sort of energy source we wouldn't have to be using any coal, oil or natural gas!

    If only someone gets cold-fusion to work! :P But oh I forgot if that worked, terrorists would then basically have the power to destroy the civilized world. So forget that - man is not ready to have great sources of easily accessed energy. :( I'd rather have a few degrees warmer climate that terrorists with fusion weapons they can make from parts in a hardware store.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    The genies have really been out of the bottles for a long time. Even if the Navy just keeps it for themselves it just elevates war fighting to a whole different level.
  • rgould22rgould22 Member Posts: 21
    I guess the bears in gagrice's pictures didn't read the peta propaganda pamphlets that said they were supposed to be afraid of man's activities and couldn't survive or reproduce because of man.
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    The genies have really been out of the bottles for a long time.

    Well it takes quite a bit of expertise to create a nuclear-bomb. So yes 15-20 countries with sophisticated labs can make one. Maybe some genius can make one in their basement also.

    What I was referring to is - if we had our wish - of limitless, easily accessed energy - that would be a major problem. For example - if you found that you could take a copper rod in a tank of water, and blow some air into it, that it would start a nuclear fusion reaction, would you want something like that? NO! For if mankind does develop an advanced energy like that - it would be easy enough for a 12-year old kid to build a megaton-bomb.

    I look at any sort of problems with fossil fuels as being minor, compared to the proposition of man having easily accessed, powerful energy sources.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It was quite the opposite for most species in the Arctic. BP and ARCO early on brought in scientists that experimented with different grasses that would be better grazing and feed for water fowl and Caribou. We had scientists living in our camp that would go out about once a week and measure the grass growth. The rest of the time they read novels and watched TV. Others would wait for that one good day a week to fly out over the Arctic and take photos or count whales.

    Along that line. I would say that the oil companies have probably spent as much on the science of GW/CC as any other group. Yet they get treated like pariah. While government paid scientists are treated like the final word. Everyone has an agenda. To discount one over the other seems disingenuous.

    I am still on the side of the 31,000+ scientists that are skeptical about man being the major cause of Global Warming.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Brings back thoughts of a nuclear powered car. Park it in the twin towers parking lot and force it into overload condition.

    Every source of energy has negative aspects. We are seeing the problems with Solar and Wind generation. Aside from the fact that they are still very expensive compared to fossil fuel generation. I'm a big fan of geo-thermal, yet there are groups that do not want US drilling holes in the earth. Both from an environmental and spiritual perspective.

    No energy source will be perfect with no negative attributes. That has been true since man first discovered fire as an energy source.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I acutually would love to get into a discussion along those lines, but it would be off topic more than it would be on topic. Indeed the only reason I brought it up was to really illustrate that our "deer in the headlights approach" (frozen in action approach) is really of choice, and NOT of a deeper reality. So more on topic is the carbon neutral algae growth for bio diesel (alternative fuel) and look at the Mt Everest obstacles and resistance to that !! This stuff is hardly "pie in the sky stuff" Yet how many engines are specified to run bio diesel (B5-B100) ?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    That in effect is what Timothy McVeigh did in Oaklahoma City, OK. Funny (for my .02 cents tragic to me) how we brushed aside the ( asymetrical WAR) attacks because the guys who garnered the attention happened to be caucasian. Are we now going to ban agriculture and UHaul trucks? Like I said the genies are long out of the bottles.

    The Navy again is really one of the HUGE documenters of the underwater sea geo-thermal sources ! Long ago submarines went on (top secret) underwater mapping missions (among other missions). To this day you only hear on History Channel type specials about Naval undersea terrain mapping expeditions. To say there is a HUGE array of underwater geo thermal vents is to UNDER STATE the OVER obvious. But it is NOT overly obvious to us land lubbers.

    So as a side bar to this point, your (Gagrice's) point about the sea not heating up, etc, in posts past elicited almost no reactions . Yet the ratio of underwater vents (small to MASSIVE underwater volcanos to land vents (aka Yellowstones) is overwhelming. It almost will sound like hyperbole. Yet it does NOT "heat the pot" so to speak.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I have watched for more information on the ARGO project. I think they are keeping a low profile after their findings did not fit the current agenda of global warming. The data is geared for scientists. Not much in layman's terms. Safer that way. They don't run the risk of losing their grant money. Easier to spin the data to say cooler oceans, warmer land mass.

    http://www.argo.ucsd.edu/FrArgo_data_and.html
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Africa wants $67 bln a year in global warming funds
    Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:35am EDT

    ADDIS ABABA, Aug 24 (Reuters) - African leaders will ask rich nations for $67 billion per year to mitigate the impact of global warming on the world's poorest continent, according to a draft resolution seen by Reuters on Monday.

    Ten leaders are holding talks at African Union (AU) headquarters in the Ethiopian capital to try to agree a common stance ahead of a U.N. summit on climate change in Copenhagen in December.

    Experts say Africa contributes little to the pollution blamed for warming, but is likely to be hit hardest by the droughts, floods, heatwaves and rising sea levels forecast if climate change is not checked.

    The draft resolution, which must still be approved by the 10 leaders, called for rich countries to pay $67 billion annually to counter the impact of global warming in Africa.


    I believe our current leaders are stupid enough to sign onto just such an agreement. Why not hand those crooked African leaders $billions to use anyway they see fit. They have stolen aid money in the past out of the mouths of the poor. Why not reward that behavior?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    They will probably take lessons from North Korea. :lemon:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    For all those that really believe we are the cause of GW.

    How much are you willing to contribute to the third world for damages that may or may not occur at some undetermined date in the future? Africa wants $960 per year from every worker in the USA. That is $80 per month. Of course when we agree to that you know Malaysia, Indonesia, India, Thailand, Myanmar, etc etc will want some of the free handouts. Then So America, Central America and Mexico ad infinitum.

    This is exactly what should have been seen with the first mention of cap n trade proposed by GW Cult members in the UN and the USA.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,589
    That's what cap n trade is truly all about, another kick in the head to the first world. Make it more expensive to do business here, move production elsewhere, and a few corporate criminals benefit.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Not all that topical but there was a story yesterday about a factory moving back to the states to make curling irons. They were getting killed by Chinese clones; with the factory stateside, it'll be easier for customs to spot and grab the knock-offs.

    The other major factor was transportation costs. If lots more of this starts happening, it could impact bunker fuel use and lower some emissions.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,589
    That's a cool story. At least someone is battling the piracy, it's not like any first world government will dare stand up to it.

    My employer has various customer service call centers - a few years ago some were outsourced, mainly to the Philippines....we are now phasing out those contracts and bringing the positions back to this continent. It was just too much drama and the quality was very inconsistent. Maybe there's a little hope yet.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Maybe there's a little hope yet.

    The flip side is that employment is so high and wages so low, companies can afford to hire Americans again. I guess that's a good thing. :confuse:

    Tesla killer? Just how much is global warming driving the new car market anyway?

    "Honda Motor Co. plans to develop an electric car to debut in the U.S. market by around 2015 as tighter environmental regulations push demand for zero-emissions vehicles"

    Green Car Advisor
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What are the actual emissions from a ZEV? If it is charged by a solar panel just the pollution manufacturing the car and the solar panels. If it is used by 50% of the population it will be from a coal fired generator. When you add CO2 as a pollutant as some people believe, doesn't that put a whole new element into the equation?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    doesn't that put a whole new element into the equation?

    That can't be - Honda is already using the Element name. :)

    Remember the hockey stick of exponential technology growth. Solar could indeed become economically viable in six years. That's long enough to figure out "clean coal" too.

    Every little bit helps and no one is going to sit still on the status quo bench twiddling their thumbs.
  • oldfarmer50oldfarmer50 Member Posts: 24,343
    "...no one is going to sit still on the status quo bench..."

    I'm more worried that if we have to pay for all this "green" technology, we may all be sleeping on a bench. :cry:

    2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It'll cost us more if we sit still. The Japanese are already eating our lunch on the hybrid car front, Ford's efforts notwithstanding. Being green is also about greenbacks.

    Even Al Gore has figured that out. :)
  • tj6968tj6968 Member Posts: 23
    A hydrogen powered car would dominate. Or oxygen. Seems to be a lot of that resource.
  • murphydogmurphydog Member Posts: 735
    A car that was powered by BS would be just about perfect... :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    We could put giant collectors attached to Congress. Probably enough to power the nations automobiles. Or better yet a dome over DC and power the world. :blush:
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    The Holy Grail. A perpetual motion machine !!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Also a guy like ex Vice President Albert Gore, Supreme C02 Potentate, Da Da for Life, link title can lead the way by spending his money on sailing ships. So when he needs to go to some exotic location for a C02 conference, he can start like 3 weeks to 2 months early and describe how much C02 he wasn't emitting by....sailing. Oh and just like in the movie Ben Hur, he will need rowing slaves like Charlton Heston. Control motors like on sailing ships are so pollutive....
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    LANSING, Mich. (AP) -- Two alternative energy companies plan to buy a shuttered Ford Motor Co. factory in southeast Michigan and convert it into a renewable energy park that could employ at least 2,800 workers within five years, energy company leaders told state lawmakers Wednesday. Yahoo
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "The so-called "H-Prize" borrows from the private "X-Prize" program that has fostered new developments in space flight and genetics research and is presently promoting development of a production-ready passenger vehicle capable of attaining a fuel economy average of at least 100 miles per gasoline-gallon, or the equivalent.

    In a notice scheduled to be published Wedesday in the Federal Register - according to a report by E&E News - the Energy Department will outline the requirements for the prize, to be awarded in 2011 if anyone can come up with an improved hydrogen storage material that satisfies the department."

    Energy Department Launching $1 Million 'H-Prize' for Hydrogen Storage Advances (Green Car Advisor)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    "This isn't about the China holding the world to ransom. They are saying we need these resources to develop our own economy and achieve energy efficiency, so go find your own supplies," he said.

    China to Begin Hoarding Precious Metals Used in Hybrids and All-Electric Vehicles (Green Car Advisor)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is the real issue with Lithium for batteries. The largest supplier is Bolivia. If you remember correctly Enron pulled a shady deal down there and we are not on the best of terms. That is why I think the whole idea of building Li-Ion batteries in MI is doubtful.

    Lithium-rich Bolivia now a global player

    Almost half of the world's lithium, the mineral needed to power the vehicles, is found in Bolivia - a country that may not be willing to surrender it easily.

    "The previous imperialist model of exploitation of our natural resources will never be repeated in Bolivia," said Saul Villegas, head of a division in Comibol that oversees lithium extraction. "Maybe there could be the possibility of foreigners accepted as minority partners, or better yet, as our clients."


    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/02/08/MNPL15M29H.DTL
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well it is cheaper and less C02 wasteful if those countries that need it actually find it domestically? Or.... what was your/the point?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    It seems to tie in with that link not long about about the Pentagon and contingency plans driven by global warming and fighting over resources. First it was oil. Now it may be nickle or lithium.

    Next it'll be water.
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