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Lincoln Navigator



  • thor8thor8 Posts: 303
    I don't think everybody hates the Nav, but it shure has it's share of unhappy owners, like all brands do. The reason your post caugth my attention is your comment about prices, the Nav is not cheaper than a Mercedes, in fact the ML 430 with a V8 cost less than a Nav. I have an Ml430 and I am trying to help my son's fiancee to sell her Nav, so I have been lurking around to get a feel, post#86 makes a point sort of what we are going thru rigth now.
  • Interesting that the Mercedes is actually cheaper, in two reviews on the Web it was listed as more expensive.

    To respond to your reference to msg 86, yes they fall in value, and I am surprised that owners did not check NADA and Kelly Blue Book values before they bought. Each of them show the Navigator falling off to the $33,900 to $39,000 value after sale.

    That is what made me go for a Navigator. I initially went in to lease a used Navigator from our dealer. We turn in a 1998 leased Mountaineer today. They put us into a Navigator for $99 more than a 2002 Mountaineer.

    What made us opt for the Navigator is that 2002 Mountaineers with V-8 engines are not available as yet, and for our needs, a V-6 would not cut it. As for people getting upset over the fact that it is a F-150 or an Expedition with a thyroid problem, what do they expect these beasts to be?

    Back in 1989 I bought a new MKVII, it is still running and has 145,000, my wife takes it to the hospital every day for work. When I drove it home I made the remark that its is a great $15,000 car not great for $25,000. As for the Mountaineer, it is not a great $35,000 anyting, but is a good $20,000 vehicle. I don't expect more from the Navigator other than room to move daughter back and forth to college, to carry car parts back from swap meets and go in the snow. I do not expect it to handle like a sports car, nor acccelerate like a dragster.

    For driving fun, we use one of our three Studebakers, real cars, that smell like cars, and actually drive like cars.

    I am leasing the car, which I consider nothing more than rent, it does not pay to own a car these days. Why worry about re-sale, trade in etc.? As cars get more and more expensive for what you can get for a bank payment to own, you wind up with a ten fold better vehicle for the same payment.

    I will let you know at 5pm today if we made a mistake moving into a Navgator, I will either love it after two hours, or find every fault there is.........and p*** and moan for the next 33 months.

    As an aside, you need a D&B rating in your hand and a copy of your last years 1040 to get the attention of a Lexus saleman in our area.

  • heatwave3heatwave3 Posts: 462
    Given some of the performance issues posted here it might explain the significant and recent sales decline of the Navigator (and other Ford SUV products) outlined below.

    Compiled this info from ai-online.com for a response on another site and thought the readers here might find it of interest.

    All sales figures are in units sold for the months of Jan and Feb 2001 compared to the same months in 2000.

    FORD: 2001 vs 2000

    Explorer/Mountaineer 54,277 vs 73,840 down -26%
    Expedition 27,494 vs 31,683 down -13%
    Excursion 5,238 vs 7862 down -33%
    Navigator 4789 vs 6215 down -23%

    GM 2001 vs 2000 (GMC, Chevy and Olds models combined):

    Blazer/Jimmy/Envoy/Bravada 49,950 vs 59,371 down -16%
    Tahoe/Yukon 40,113 vs 27,253 up +47%
    Suburban/Yukon XL 31,061 vs 28,974 up +7.2%
    Escalade 2084 vs 3788 (The sales for the Escalade were almost exclusively in Feb. for 2001 as this is a new model and sales were very minimal in Jan. compared to 2000. If you doubled Feb sales (2x 2723) and compared to Jan/Feb 2000, sales were up +43%).

    FYI: The Sequoia is not in the same league in sales at 9,494 for the first 2 months of 2001, however it is an up and comer. Time will tell if they become a real competitor to the full size SUVs from Detroit.
  • breezeebreezee Posts: 9

    Been driving my leased 'Gator since November '97, liked it so much I extended the lease 6 months because I wanted to keep an open mind and check out the Escalade. I have 6 weeks to go, and since Lincoln is now going to introduce a totally restyled '02 Gator... I may either extend again or drive my daughter's Cabrio!!!

    But seriously... the current 'Gator is a matured vehicle meaning it's been thoroughly debugged and tweaked. It has lots more power than mine, but I can tell you that I have never walked into my dealer's service department with a complaint. There were a couple of dumb recall issues like a possible faulty gas strut for the rear tailgate window... but mine was fine. All "huhs?" for me.

    With 49,000 under her belt, this car still looks and drives fine, so I'm wishing you the best. The bad blood over the Navigator is probably just the old chevy-ford crap from our youth! I always busted anyone with a Ford when I had my '56 Bel-Air convertible, and my '57 Bel-Air hardtop. All these super SUVs are probably OK.

    The one benefit I see with a domestic brand is that you can wheel and deal. Since I'm also a BMW owner I test drove the X5 last week, and when I asked the salesman how we could make the numbers "work" for me... he said they are on allocation and the price is full sticker. If I don't buy it, somebody else will. Domestic guys are like Sears salesmen right now... everyone looking to screw the neighboring dealer. Hope you got a good deal. The time is right.

  • gque3gque3 Posts: 1
    I recently purchased a 98 Gator (as a second vehicle). I've been very pleased with the performance. However, I've noticed it has developed a squeal when the steering wheel is moved. The squeal comes from under the hood (somewhere?). I checked the obvious things (like power steering) and it doesn't sound like a belt squeal. I do not profess to be a "mechanic" by any means and was wondering if someone could help me trouble-shoot before I take it in to a shop to be looked at. Thanks.
  • mobile4mobile4 Posts: 1
    I've had my 2001 Navigator for about a month, and the driver's seat is extremely uncomfortable. The seat back and base are both almost completely flat, with no lateral support. The seat is hard and provides very little cushion to your back or upper legs. Also, when you make a turn, especially to the left, you tend to slide away from the steering wheel and gas pedal. This could be dangerous! Before you buy, I'd suggest you take a long test drive and pay attention to the driver's seat. If I had known how uncomfortable this car is to drive, I would have kept my Mountaineer.
  • alwaysfordsalwaysfords Posts: 210
    Funny you should mention that - I sat in a Navigator today (I currently have an Expedition) and could not believe how featureless the seats are. It is like two boards with leather over them. My Expedition has much better seats, although still not as laterally supportive as my Explorers were.
  • We purchased a used 2000 Nav with 28k miles. Have had it in to the dealer twice for the driver side lean. They claim the 3/4" tolerance I've read about here is acceptable. But the lean is really 2-3 inches and VERY noticeable from the rear. Has anyone had any luck identifying and resolving the problem? Does this contribute to the hwy swaying problem at higher speeds? Appreciate any facts to help resolve.
  • breezeebreezee Posts: 9
    I'll have to agree with "alwaysfords" and say that the upscale leather package/Eddie Bauer seats in the earliest Explorers were the best seats I've ever seen in a SUV, and that includes my buddy's Range Rover HSE.

    The Explorer basically took a Recaro design and made it SUV-sized. It had a ton of adjustments including power side bolsters that actually peaked and held you in, power lumbar, all the normal power controls, plus the front thigh support was on a track and could be extended about four inches... a boon for a guy like me with long legs. My BMW's sport seats aren't as nice as those Explorer's seats. On top of all this, you had power controls for both driver and passenger, something that Ford did not offer when I was shopping for a '98 Explorer/Navigator.

  • tag9tag9 Posts: 39
    Don't get it.....selecting the entertainment system on the Navigator **deletes** the moon roof, navigation system, **and** climate controlled seats???????

    I mean, that sure seems like quite a lot to give up for an LCD/VCP. Although the unavailability of the moonroof makes sense, I can't figure out why the climate controlled seats would have to go.

    Anyone have an answer?

    Parenthetically, I have to concur with bondobilly; comparing the Navigator with either the ML430 or LX470 makes little sense. Although the ML430 is a great vehicle and roughly the same price, it's a full 2 feet shorter than the Nav. As for the LX470 it, as well, is a great SUV but it's a foot shorter than the Nav, nowhere near as spacious, and much pricier.
  • breezeebreezee Posts: 9
    The fit and finish on the ML430 does not approach the German-built vehicles. It looked very much like a MAACO orange-peel special sitting next to a 4xx sedan in the showroom. Ugh! BMW's X5 did have a nice finish... must be why they have finally pulled ahead of Mercedes in sales here. As for size, while these X5/ML430 types are called F/S... they have maybe 24"-30" behind the rear seat... about half of a Navigator or even a Tahoe... Forget about a suburban. The Mercedes looks more like a van than an SUV but it is well-engineered I'm sure. The X5 looks like a 540i wagon on steroids and a lift kit... but has no space either. The seats don't even fold completely flat like my Nav does.

    With regard to rear entertainment, I agree that the "packages" from the factory are dumb, but if you really want a rear entertainment system, go to a reputable car stereo dealer and you'll get better equipment and it'll be installed wherever you want it. Check out this link:


    That's my buddy's shop... he does everything from Bentleys to Buicks. Video systems and GPS are the hottest thing they are doing right now. I saw a new 'burban he did recently and it was awesome... dual headrest LCDs, plus a drop-down for the 3rd seat passengers. DVD + connections for a video game, plus GPS in the front seat.


  • tag9tag9 Posts: 39
    Thanks for the advice, breezee. It appears as if I have no choice; no way I would give up the other stuff just to get the factory-installed entertainment system.

    I'm just confounded by the fact that the manufacturer, with all of its resources, can't seem to engineer a solution while every small, independent car stereo dealer can.
  • irowed8irowed8 Posts: 1
    My Sister-In-Law bought a 2000 MY Navigator. She loves the vehicle, but has had a recurring noise come on when she turns on the air --- specifically the heat. She has been to the dealer about 3-4 times, but they can't seem to pinpoint the problem. They have even begun to insinuate that she is making it up. I have heard it when we have driven for a little while, but for some reason the dealership isn't blessed with our good hearing. It is really annoying to her since she and her husband bought the vehicle. Has anyone else had this problem --- and if so how can she get it fixed?

  • I have an Audiovox flip down monitor and a sunroof. I got the monitor installed at myer-emco but you can also get them at best buy and stores like that. So my advice would be to get the Nav with a sunroof and take it somewhere afterwards to install a system, it might also save you money.
  • shorelineshoreline Posts: 10
    I test drove an 01 nav (beautiful laser red) yesterday and took it on the freeway with the salesman. As soon as I hit freeway speeds of 55-65 it started to radically vibrate - felt like some really bad alignment. My arms were "jiggling" (better work out more) so much so that the salesman noticed it! He said he'd have the tires looked at. I didn't think anything of it until I checked out this board. Thanks for the info. Guess I'll continue my search for the perfect SUV...
  • abolanosabolanos Posts: 1
    I'm looking to get a '01 2WD Nav. I've read some comments on this forum and I'm concerned to see comments of people stating that they want to sell their Navs after only 1 year of owning them. First of all, price depreciation is going to be normal on any vehicle. I agree that as long as is not outrageous. Also, why would you want to get out of your Nav in less than a year? I'm ready to hear from you Nav owners. I have read all the good things about it, and I personally love that truck (with only a couple of tests drives under my belt), but I want to know what do you think after owning one for a little while. Also, does anyone know when the '02 are coming out, and would it be worth it for me to wait for them?
  • thor8thor8 Posts: 303
    Go to post # 86.
  • dwgrizzledwgrizzle Posts: 6
    I have been reading all the posts with some
    interest in the ones on viberation. I owned
    an early 97 EB Expedition and had very few
    problems with it. My 99 Navigator does have
    some viberation in the 70 to 75 MPH range.
    This has been mostly eliminated by three trips
    to the Winston tire dealer for wheel balancing.
    I fooled around and let the orginal conti tires
    get chewed up by a poor alignment. The new tires
    are the orginal spare and a new purchased conti.
    The viberation was not there with the old tires,
    but is noticable with the current tires. I have
    read on another board at suv.com that Michelin tires
    may be the best tires for this vehicle and may go
    a long way to fix the viberation. Other than this
    I have had no problems with my 99 Navigator. I
    test drove the 2001 Navigator with particular
    attention to the front end alignment for drift
    and any viberation. I could not detect any. The
    truck is being painted now on the lower half and
    should be ready by the end of the week. I will
    post again later with my first month's experence
    on my new 2001.

    The reason for getting it was the 0.0 financing
    and free maintenance. Also it was nice to get a
    sunroof and climate controlled seats for the hot
    valleys of So. California. Otherwise I would be
    driving the 99 for several more years. The 2001
    will be around I hope for at least 150K miles.

    The spy photos for the 2002 show some minor
    differences in the body work, larger mirrows,
    and suburban type door handles. That did not
    seem worth waiting for and paying the extra
    dollars for.

  • auburn96auburn96 Posts: 43
    Dave...Where did you see the spy pictures of the 2002 Navigator. Anybody got any details on changes?
  • tronsr1tronsr1 Posts: 149
    I read two days ago that Ford has authorized an increase from the $500.00 rebate to $2000.00, due to slow sales on the larger SUV's.
  • mansdmansd Posts: 7
    Are they worth the extra $?
  • pbarleypbarley Posts: 1
    Have a 2000 Nav. and i'm having difficulty keeping the tires inflated properly. Tire store blames the rims. In particular the right front and left rear need air added every couple of weeks. (5-8lbs.) Anyone with similar troubles? Next stop is dealer (UGH!)
  • drew_drew_ Posts: 3,382
    Hmm, that sounds like a slow leak in the tires. Perhaps there is a small puncture somewhere, or if it's leaking around the valve stem? The tire store could very well be right too. Maybe you could try another tire shop?

    Please keep us updated!

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  • steverstever Posts: 52,457
    I suppose it's a bit early to start a new discussion on the 2003 Lincoln Aviator, but you Lincoln fans may be interested in this story

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  • I'm about to buy a 2001 gator with moon roof, heated seats, 17.5 inch chrome rims, alpine stereo.....52,250 msrp......I would lease it for 3 years/12,000 miles for $636/month...nothing down. Is this a good deal? Thanks
  • Anyone having vibration &/or drivetrain problems can email me with results & dealer fixes: [email protected]
    I have:
    '01 'gator, 6k miles
    1- there is a 38mph groan/vibration when accelerating through 38 mph when in a lower gear.
    The dealer has another 'gator with the same thing, and is now waiting for a "ford engineer" to come out and inspect the vehicles.
    They think this may be the torque converter or the valve body. I don't want mine messed with until they know what it is.
    2- metalic squeel, like a badly slipping gear or clutch, when in wide-open-throttle acceleration, still in first gear, then releasing the pedal 1/4 to 1/2 down from wot to force a shift. The tranny doesn't seem to know what to do, and sometimes if it hits the right spot, I get that load metalic squeel. (obviously I don't do that much, :)
    3- tires? vibrations, mostly over 55, more at over 60, seems to go away by 75:
    the 4 factory conti's were swapped, still have it but different, but with over-inflating the tires, I think I have it narrowed it down to 2 of the new 4. I'm trying to get the factory to pull those conti's and give me the new Michelin cross-something tires that just came out for the 'gator.

    Otherwise, ;) , I love the vehicle.
  • smwls8smwls8 Posts: 103
    Any info on 2003 Nav?Engine, different 3rd seat(split).

  • My daughter crashed my 1999 Navigator by running over several fixed objects (including an Audi A6) and managed to seriously damage the frame (she was OK, though the airbags never deployed).

    The body shop is going to replace the frame, which causes me grave concerns about the reliability/stability of the truck. In addition, my lease states that I have to pay for the loss of market value (even though it will be repaired, it will not have the same value as one that was never wrecked).

    Does anyone have any experience with the reliability after a major repair like this? Any ideas on how bad the "diminished value" might be? Any thoughts on how I can cover my tail and not take a huge financial hit at the end of the lease?
  • wonpderwonpder Posts: 20
    Would any one know the build date for the Lincoln Aviator?
  • wonpderwonpder Posts: 20
    Steve: Would like to read story about Aviator you talk about in POST 175. Can not bring up story. Any help?
  • steverstever Posts: 52,457
    Our news links "go stale" after a week or two, and that's why you came up empty. I *think* this is the same story (the press release was made around 8/21). Try a google.com search if you need more.

    2003 Lincoln Aviator Will Debut in 2002

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  • I've have not read much discussion here on the Navigator. The Edmunds review team puts it in the middle of the pack below Mercades and Lexus (I'm ok with that). I'm looking at a 1999 Navigator (White 50K miles) Its sharp. Leather is a little worn, but overall looks and rides good. There appears to be a slight slip when accelerating to the left or right.

    Just wondering if anyone out there has positives or negatives they'd like to share about the Navigator.

    Thanks. Happy New Year!

  • diploiddiploid Posts: 2,286
    You could also wait for the redesigned Navigator. It's probably going to get released at the same time as the next generation Expedition, or a couple of months afterwards.
  • Here are some photos from Ford:



  • steverstever Posts: 52,457
    2003 Lincoln Navigator

    SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
  • Thanks. The info and links re: 2003 Nav are greatly appreciated.
  • audia8qaudia8q Posts: 3,138
    job 1 is expected on 3/18/01 for the 2003 navigator with a ship to dealer date on 5/6/02.

    The hold is fofr quality checks. They want to get this launch 100% perfect.

  • smwls8smwls8 Posts: 103
    With a re-designed 2003 coming soon, some of you guys with leased models surely are interested in the new model? Or is the lack of activity here tantamount to a desire to move to a different brand? My wife will deliver daughter #3 on May 1, so the LS is history. Will it be a Navigator, I don't know, 2002 or 2003? But I sure don't seem to find much 1st hand ownership experience here about the Navigator like I did at the Lincoln LS board. And that board had tremendous influence in my decision to go with the LS, an awesome sedan for a family of 4, but not 5.

  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,059

    Things usually slow down considerably over the weekend!

  • bolkerbolker Posts: 30
    Hmmmm. I'm trying to decide between a 2003 Navigator and 2002/3 Escalade. I really like the way the Escalade looks, however what I find most interesting/important to me is the power and handling. I was a little underwhelmed with the Caddi interior, and was hoping the Navigator might have upped the ante in it's 2003 "total redesign".

    Looking at the interior in the picture here, I think it's very very understated. More so than the Escalade. I'm not particularly happy with it. The fact that the Navigator will stick with it's 300hp engine also underwhelms me. The nice new independent rear suspension should make it handle much better, but it certainly isn't enough in my opinion.

    Am I missing something here? I'm not impressed with this new design.

  • bolkerbolker Posts: 30
    Hehe, guess no response means everyone agrees. ;)

  • Hi, I have read through most of these posts and have a question. I own a 1998 Ford Expedition. I have had TONS of problems with it - all covered by warranty - but still out of service for almost 40 days in a little over 3.5 years. From all the reports/reviews I have read, mine is not a typical vehicle since Navigator/Expedition are rated pretty good. Tried lemon law, didn't work since most of the problems are nuisance (CD player issue, window motor, AC motor, sunroof, etc) and don't "significantly impair the use of, safety of the vehicle or significantly reduce resale." Anyway, after 2 years of dealing with Ford and finally going to a Lincoln deal for service - a LOT better by the way - it looks like Ford will pony up $5K for a new Navigator. Dealer has a left over 2001, new with about 500miles on it. My vehicle is worth about $15k according to Edmunds, NADA, KBB and dealer will give me $15K for it. So, to net this out, MSRP is $51K, dealer invoice is $46K. They will sell the Navigator for that minus another $2K to get me as a customer. Subtract $3K from Ford for being a 2001 and then the $5K they will 'give' me for the Expedition troubles and the 'deal' works out to about 21K + taxes on that amount (about $1300) plus my 98 Expedition. With that I get 4-yr/50K warranty plus 3yr/36K maintenance. While I really hate looking at spending any more $$$ on a new vehicle, it seems like a pretty decent deal to me, $36K for a new Navigator that MSRP's @ 51K, especially with .9% financing for 4 years. Comments ?
  • alwaysfordsalwaysfords Posts: 210
    Better sit in the driver seat for a few minutes - my experience has been that the seats in the Navigator are much less supportive than the Expy (which aren't that supportive to begin with). The Navigator seats are like leather covered plywood - very flat, and with few features to keep you planted behind the wheel.
  • gteach26gteach26 Posts: 576
    Just saw the 2003 nav at the Ft. Lauderdale Auto show. They had the dang thing up on a platform so I couldn't get in it but it was close enough to get a good look inside. They had the black leather interior which looked good but not very practical for hot-as-heck South Fla. The leather seats were close enough to touch and they felt a bit softer and less "vinyl-like" than the current model (I have a 2000 Nav). The new navigation system screen on the dash looks really nice. The "satin nickel finish" on the dash looks nicer in person than in the pictures I've seen. A rep did a few demos of the latest additions and the best feature seemed to be the power fold down third row seat that dissapears into the floor. The rep also stated that there's much more head room in the last row compared to now. The exterior looks real nice.. the changes are subtle but it makes the exterior of the truck look more sleek. For good pics of the truck check out wieck.com go to "public" and do a search for "navigator". The rep says the 2003 will ride more smoothly and have better road feel than the current model. I hope this is true because that's been a gripe of mine with the current model. I am probably being unreasonable but I want a smoother quieter ride in this big bulky truck -- don't know if this is possible though. The closest thing to this "quiet-smooth" dream of mine has been the lexus LX 470 but it feels way too cramped for me and not worth $20,000 more. Also, I've alwyas been a bit underwhelmed by the interior of the old nav -- I dont like how the navigator (and the escalade for that matter) have practically the same dash as their cheaper cousins. The new nav interior solves that issue for me. I'm looking forward to test-driving this truck to see if it really is smoother than the old one. If it isn't, I just might go for a 2003 loaded expy and save some cash.

    For those of you looking to buy a used nav or a new 2002 model I've only had a few minor problems with mine that were easily fixed. The truck is really roomy and gives you good acceleration when you need it. I just suggest that you drive the truck on a highway for a few minutes to see if you like how it rides at highway speeds. Lease specials have been popping up lately.. they're advertising 2002 nav's here in South Fla. for $499/mo with $2,300 down (3 year/36,000 miles -- maintenance included).
  • steverstever Posts: 52,457
    Preview: 2003 Lincoln Navigator

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  • tgravo2tgravo2 Posts: 70
    We own an 01 Navigator, and just visited a local auto show. We were going to trade it in for an 03 Escalade, but after seeing the new Navigator design, we are sold on it. I love the fact that everything is power, the rear lift gate, running boards, rear seats are power fold down, and they fold flat, unlike the 01/02 3rd seat that you have to remove. I also love the design of the new interior. I am not crazy about the beige color, but the one at the show was a greyish and looked very good matched up to the nickel plated dash. I think Lincoln has done an impressive job and we will be buying one when they come out.
  • stacystacy Posts: 91
    Read about/saw new '03 Nav. See SUV.COM for a great article. Sounds awesome. Seriously considering Denali XL because of trunk space. But just does not have all the little extras that come standard on the new Nav. I did not like brakes, ride of old Nav. Will have three kids soon - and three car seats (although my son is using a booster on his own) I still have all the "kidstuff" including stroller, sometimes baseball equipment(my husband coaches my 5 year old)and misc stuff. I am worried about the lack of trunk space on this car and the ease of access to the third row (I would get capt chair in Denali)- plus lack of rear headrests there. Anyone notice headrests on the '03? Also if you now own a Nav and have three kids please give an honest opinion if you miss/would have preferred the extra room of a bigger trunk. The size difference does not concern me because I can get used to driving anything. No vans for me. LX470 is too small. Sequoia Ltd is too ordinary. I want a big AWD vehicle. Seems GM vehicles are just not as "advanced" in the bells and whistles, creature comfort things I am looking for. I'm just worried about the trunka nd 3rd seat. Yes I am a mom and will not go off road often, only skiing in the winter. Also does this car take premium fuel? Thank you very much in advance for any info.
  • jlangmdjlangmd Posts: 6
    I've had a 99 Navigator, originally with 3 children, now with four. Purchased initially with 2nd row captain's seats. With 3 or more children, you must use the third row, and the cargo space is severely restricted. Also removing children from the 3rd row when they are sleeping after a long trip is not possible. I did not consider a new Navigator due to these factors. The Denali XL has the added trunk space that I needed however, It looks and drives like a boat, and I wouldn't be able to park it in my garage.

    Yes, takes premium fuel.

    After checking out numerous vehicles I decided on a Mercedes ML 500 with the optional 3rd row seats. It will seat seven. The one advantage this has is that you can put in one or both rear seats, and with one, there is more useable cargo space than the Nav. I haven't seen this feature on other SUV's but I really like it. Remains to be seen whether this is a good decision or not.
  • stacystacy Posts: 91
    Thanks so much for the info jlang. Looked at Edmunds for Mercedes info. ML is is only 182"long. It would be too short for me. Have 180" RX300 now and its perfect for 2 kids but a 3rd row in the back and I would have no trunk. How are you going to fit 4 kids, get out sleeping little ones in the ML? Even LX470 is 196" and no trunk, even with 1/2 seat tumbled in 3rd row the area is small and my 5 yr old just fits now. I read in the new Nav you can fold down automatically 1/2 of the 3rd row. Can you do that with the current Nav? How long have you had your ML?
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