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Jeep Wrangler

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Comments

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Best Fringe in Canada, too and one day I'd love to see the waterfall off the bridge.

    The "may want to go off-road" sentiment must give the bean counters at Jeep fits. As this article says, Jeep wants to be true to their off-road roots, but lots of SUV sales are to soft-roaders:

    Chrysler's new sales chief sees room to expand Jeep brand (AutoWeek).

    Maybe a Compass for a commuter between trail rides?

    Steve, Host
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    That would be RPM Tom, singular. It's a bit like VIN number or ATM machine :-)

    The I6 is an old and heavy engine that's not very fuel efficient. It produces most of its torque at low RPM which is ideal for off road use (or towing). An I6 is also the smoothest running design of engine out there, apart from maybe a rotary or Wankel engine.

    The new V6 should be lighter and more efficient. Torque production will be higher in the rev range, making it more like a regular car engine. I don't know about this engine, but most V6's run an auxiliary counter rotating balance shaft to smooth out vibrations.

    Having the torque band at higher RPM is not necessarily a bad thing as it can be circumvented by gearing. However, crawling slowly at high revs definitely requires an attitude readjustment.

    My personal ideal would be a supercharged I6. However, I think the V6 will be the way of the future.
  • drosketerdrosketer Member Posts: 203
    Edmonton is quite nice, although I have to admit that the weather can be a bit much. While we're having a great (hot) summer this year, the running joke is that we only get two seasons, summer and winter. Winters tend to bring plenty of snow, and typically two cold snaps per winter where temps hit -30 C for up to a week or two. That aside, there is plenty of amazing scenery to be found.

    Once I get some wheels worth taking off the highway I'll be on the lookout for trails. I will definitely let you know if I come across any worthwhile ones. As far as I know it, there are plenty to be found near Hinton (about 85km east of Jasper).

    No worries on having a "senior moment", but as far as I know it, Rubi's come with 31" tires...
  • chimpsnestchimpsnest Member Posts: 27
    I think I need to think 'car' for now, but will maybe one day pick up a nice, used, wrangler for cheap dough and weekend fun :-)
    Take care all you Jeepers!
  • drosketerdrosketer Member Posts: 203
    Have you been to Edmonton before? I think you're the first person ever to mention the waterfall. Kind of neat. The City turns it on on July 1st and then on the occasional long weekend during the summer... Kind of a controversy with the municipal bean counters as it costs millions to maintain, and only gets turned on for a few hours a year.

    No worries about me not getting that Jeep off the road... I plan on that, just perhaps not doing anything too extreme. Hate to damage what will be my first brand new car too quickly!!

    Of course, I am still waiting to see what changes are coming in 2004... then the order... then the waiting... ARGH. It's aggravating already.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Yeah, great city - what Anchorage (where I once lived) should be, with the underground sidewalks, etc. I stumbled on the Fringe one year ('89?) on a road trip and spent several days there. Tourists got free parking passes then. Even the mall was fun, lol.

    I'm in Boise, now - good trails here and you're only what, 16 hours north? Come on down!

    Steve, Host
  • drosketerdrosketer Member Posts: 203
    Wow, we've gone a long way from that... these days the City Council is thinking up ever more creative methods of fleecing folks from their hard-earned money. Ahh, WEM, did you go on the Mindbender?

    Only 16 hours? lol. From all I've heard, I'd need a second source of income to pay for gas alone...
  • embeedueceembeeduece Member Posts: 260
    The question my dealer can't deem to answer for me is what differential the Jeep comes with standard if it doesn't have the Trak-Lok.

    While I won't be 4X4ing, the Trak-Loc provides limited slip seems like a good safety feature for adverse on road conditions.

    He also tried to talk me out of 4 wheel disc, saying in normal city driving, disc and drum are fine. Thoughts? Thanks. (This is a great group).
  • redkey1redkey1 Member Posts: 270
    Anyone have them? Pros / cons? I notice ebay has them for $129 for both front and rear seats. Wet Okole's are over $300.
  • drosketerdrosketer Member Posts: 203
    Okay, I hope you guys don't mind bearing with some more newbie questions but I haven't seen anything in this forum about this...

    What is the difference between the Rock-Track vs. Track-Lok differentials? The former is part of the Rubicon package while the latter is an option on the Sport. I understand the concept of a limited-slip diff., but what is the difference between the two?

    Also, I've noticed that on at least two occasions folks have mentioned the Rubicon coming with a "lift"... but I don't see that listed on the Jeep site. Can anyone verify is this is the case?

    Many thanks!
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Okay, how about RsPM? :)

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Trac loc is a limited slip differential, which can be very useful in slippery conditions. There has to be some amount of traction on each tire for the trac loc to work, however, so if one tire is completely off the ground, which often happens when you are offroading, then the trac loc does nothing for you. You can use the brake trick, though, to "fool" the limited slip into thinking that there is traction, and lots of times get out of a situation that way. Since we are talking the rear axle in this case, just raise the emergency brake lever a few clicks, and this will be enough to make the trac loc work when a tire is off the ground. (So I have heard... never had a limited slip in an offroad situation)

    The Rubicon comes with selectable full lockers front and back. A locker, when engaged, makes both tires on the same axle turn at the same speed, even if one of the tires has zero traction (like when one is off the ground). So, instead of the tire with no traction spinning like crazy and the other tire doing nothing, the tire with traction will propel the vehicle. Selectable lockers are nice, because they can be turned off when not needed. A full locker causes some undesirable side effects on the street, especially in turning corners, so it's nice to be able to turn one on only when it's needed.

    A full time locker has to disengage for corners, since the outside tire has to turn faster than the inside tire. The disengaging and engaging of a full time locker is not always a nice smooth transition.

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • drosketerdrosketer Member Posts: 203
    Thanks Tom. So, by what you wrote I take it to mean rock-trac differs from trac-loc by being selectable (not to mention that it is on both front and rear diffs.) as opposed to a non-selectable locker that is on the rear diff. only?

    I haven't seen too many posts by folks who actually own a Rubi... so if you're out there lurking, care to enlighten the rest of us as to your impressions?
  • nolid5nolid5 Member Posts: 148
    Nice come back Tom! :)
  • mtngalmtngal Member Posts: 1,911
    I'm almost positive that the Sport comes with an open diffy if you don't get the trac-loc.

    I have the trac-loc on mine and don't think it is worth the extra money for adverse road conditions only (it is for off-roading). The one time I really needed it was when I got high-centered on snow (we had 30" one night). I ended up waiting until dawn, digging out the snow under the frame so I could get the rear wheels onto some packed snow and backed up into my driveway (I was stuck on the road in front of my house). Of course, the snow was well above my bumper, and I heard later that the highway patrol was using snowcats to rescue people stuck in the over 100 cars on the freeway - they couldn't get to them with 4x4 vehicles.

    I love my Wrangler, and it does get me out of my driveway (mostly) in winter. However, it is frustrating to drive it on iffy roads or ones that are clear with occasional ice. Since it has a transfer case, not AWD, you can't use 4WD on dry pavement. That means you either have to keep changing between 4WD and 2WD as the conditions change. I drive very carefully in those conditions while considering buying snow tires.
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    OK, here's what little I know...

    Standard rear differential for SE, X, Sport, and Sahara is the Dana 35, and it is an open differential. (This was true in the 01s, at least, when I bought Thelma Jane).

    The Dana 44 is an optional, stronger rear end that is available in the Sport and Sahara models. It is NOT available in the SE, nor in the X models.

    The Dana 44 is open, unless trac loc is ordered as an option. In the 01s, there was a real nice option package, "AAS," that would give you the Dana 44, 30" tires, Canyon wheeels, and gas shocks for $895 (I think that was the price). That DID NOT get you trac loc, unless you also ordered it separately.

    Trac loc is NOT a locker, but is a limited slip. It is a clutch type limited slip.

    Lockers break down into two basic categories, full time and selectable.

    Full time lockers cannot be turned on and off. They do disengage themselves for turning corners, where one wheel (the outside wheel) needs to turn faster than the other wheel on the same axle. There can be some jerking and some clicking noise when the locker disengages or re-engages. After cornering and then getting back on the throttle, you can sometimes experience a pull to one side or the other as the locker reingages. With the Detroit Soft Locker, like I have, there is sometimes a HUGE bang, which would scare you to death, if you didn't know what it was. It doesn't hurt anything, and it happens very rarely.

    Selectable lockers can be completely disengaged when not needed, so that the bad street manners of a locker don't have to be tolerated.

    Rubicons come standard with selectable lockers front and back, Dana 44's front and back (Dana 30's are standard for the front on other models), a 4:1 transfer case for low range (standard is 2.7:1 on other models), and 31" tires, with a small lift to accomodate those tires.

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    " Nice come back Tom! :) "

    Hope all here know that I was just messin' with good old Mac 24 and not trying to be a smart alec.

    He is right, of course, about RPMs not being good grammar. Like we should say "brothers-in-law" instead of "brother-in-laws."

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    I think you covered that pretty well Tom. The only point you didn't mention is that when the Roc-Lok is not selected to lock the axle it functions as a limited slip, albeit gear driven like a Tru-Trac, rather than with a clutch pack like the Trac-Lok.

    So, selected it's a locker and the rest of the time it's a limited slip.
  • twylietwylie Member Posts: 619
    The Rubicon diffs are actually the best of both worlds... limited slip standard and selectable locer via the switch on the dash. I think Roc-Trak <sp?> may be the marketing term for the 4:1 transfer case the Rubicon uses.

    Tom's comment abotu using the e-brake to "fool" the limited slip does work. Usually 2 or 3 clicks is enough to get power back to the wheel off the ground. For small tires (I have 31s), limited slip is great. It's invisible and will get you through most situations. When you step up to Tom's style of wheeling or bigger tires, the clutch packs in the LS aren't as effective, and a locker becomes more important.

    For the little amount of money DC asks for the rear discs, I would definitely get them. For running around town, the 30 year old disc/drum setup is fine, but I'd prefer the additional stopping power and easier pad changing of discs if available.

    I'm not aware of any additional lift that is installed on the Rubis. If anything, it might be slightly stiffer shocks and a marginally thinner isolation spacer on top of the coils. Anyone with confirmed info on this, please speak up.

    -twylie
  • twylietwylie Member Posts: 619
    mac has all the answers and is a quicker typist to boot <grin>!

    -twylie
  • twylietwylie Member Posts: 619
    I've seen people mention that Wal-mart or some of the warehouse clubs often have the generic neoprene seat covers for $30. Might be worth trying to see if you like them. I've read enough posts to think they a) are not completely waterproof, and b) are clammy once you've been sitting a while.

    -twylie
  • embeedueceembeeduece Member Posts: 260
    As always, great information. Thanks. I'm sure I'll have more ?s to follow.

    -Mike
  • bamatazzbamatazz Member Posts: 311
    WOW!!..im still reading...
      I even understand trac-loc now.
    Tom..good thing your smarter than u look (LOL)
    DROSKETER...ME?? take TAZZ off road..he might get dirty.. not my jeep. Even if I wanted to i really dont have the time. In the future I would like to get an older jeep to do some offroading, but not my TAZZ.. Since he is a Limited Edition ( only 4,097). I like to keep him looking NEW NEW NEW.
      SEATCOVERS. I got the wal-mart covers for mine. They look good just dont fit perfectly since they are universal fit. I think i am gonna get the Wet Oklole for the Rear seat.

    Keep Jeepin
    BamaTazz
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    No, I don't have all the answers (just some of them).
    :-)

    Most people asking a question like to see confirmation of any answer they get, so don't hold back in posting. Besides, like everyone else, I don't get it right 100% of the time.

    ;-)
  • drosketerdrosketer Member Posts: 203
    Right along with embeeduece, a big thanks to all for the information - you guys are founts of knowledge...

    I just hope all that typing doesn't cramp up your fingers! ;-)

    Andrew
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    The reason I didn't mention that the Rubi's lockers function as a limited slips when they are not actuated as lockers is because... I didn't know that! How cool! Those babies must be great!

    You know your stuff, Mr. Mac!

    Have you ever posted and told what type of Jeep you have, whether you offroad or not (and what type of wheelin' it is), where ya live? Would be very interested, unless you want to keep your privacy, of course.

    I sure appreciate all the technical info you provide us here.

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • embeedueceembeeduece Member Posts: 260
    As always, great information. Thanks. I'm sure I'll have more ?s to follow.

    -Mike
  • drosketerdrosketer Member Posts: 203
    Just kidding Bama... over the many, many posts that I have seen it just seemed like the appropriate question to ask you! <g>
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Uh, how come you never come to Gill's any more? Geez, been missin' ya. :(

    Speaking of Gill's, I wish all of you would come and chat with us. I guess I'm not supposed to post direct links to Gill's any more, but if you are interested, the name of the site is itsajeep.org. Click on "photo gallery" at the top of the home page, if you are interested in seeing some pics of Jeeps and wheelin', and click on the "chat" tab to come to the chat room.

    Gill's is a very small (but very nice) private, noncommercial web site where many of us that hang out here go to post pics and to chat.

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    All of you need to know that when you go to the dealer to make your purchase, you will most likely not get a lot of good, dependable info from the salesman.

    It's a shame, but it is almost unheard of to actually find a salesman that knows anything about Wranglers. Of course, many of them will give you an answer to any question you might ask, but often they are dead wrong in what they tell you.

    I guess it might have to do with the low number of Wranglers sold in relation to the numbers sold of other types of vehicles. Guess the salesmen just don't think it is worth their time to learn much about Wranglers.

    I was lucky in that I had spent LOTS of hours on this site and on another site or two before ordering my Thelma Jane. Also, my salesman actually knew a lot about the option packages and what they were good for. Don't count on your salesman to be like that. It is very rare.

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • barresa62barresa62 Member Posts: 1,379
    as of the beginning of 03'. It contains (as Tom listed in his post) the following:

    Wheels - 15x8.0 "Canyon" Aluminum
    Tires - 30 x 9.5R15 Wrangler OWL A/T
    Axle - Rear, Heavy Duty Dana 44/226MM
    Axle Ratio - 3.73
    Shocks - High Pressure Gas Charged

    Retail Cost: $850, Pkg code: AAS

    The trac-lok & 4 wheel disc brakes are additional stand-alone options. Their codes are: BRW & DSA. Retail cost is $150 & $285 respectively.

    I have all the above options on my black 03'Sport.

    Stephen
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Hey, just looked at my window sticker, and I also paid $850 for the AAS package. It was the air conditioning that was $895.

    That's cool that they didn't raise the price on the AAS package from 01 to 03.

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    Nothing out of the ordinary. It's a '99 Sahara auto, 3.73, Canyons with 31" BFG AT's, OME suspension and a MM hydraulic winch.

    Realistically (unfortunately), at least 90% of my mileage is on road. Off road I don't do mud, deep water or body damage. I take pride in finesse, rather than a heavy right foot. I'll always winch rather than risk an axle shaft.

    A stock Wrangler is far more capable off road than most new owners imagine. If asked, I always advise people to learn how to drive off road in their standard vehicle before modifying it. It's so satisfying to smoothly drive a standard vehicle through a section that's defeated a poorly driven one with a 3" lift and 33's.
    :-)
  • wheelsdownwheelsdown Member Posts: 250
    Thanks for your answers to my post about cruise and MPG. I don't have time right now, but I will post some more info on how my fan acts later. I would be intrested in what you think.

    Terry
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Thanks for the info. I was just curious, cause you sure know your stuff on the technical issues.

    Do you mind telling us where you are from? Also, how often ya get to go wheelin and what type of terrain it is?

    I agree big time with what you said about starting stock and learning to wheel that way. I am so glad that I did that, but a big reason that it worked out that way is because I just couldn't afford any mods. :)

    I'm still not far from stock, with just that little 2" lift and still running 31s.

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    This pic is a classic example of a case where a locker in the front differential would have made all the difference in the world. Instead of using my winch to get me through this spot, I could have driven through it, if I had a front locker.

    image

    See how the right front tire is in the air and spinning? Look at the left front tire... just sitting there. A locker would have made the left front tire pull, even though the right front tire was in the air. (A limited slip would have possibly worked, if I had used the brake petal and the gas at the same time.)

    The rear differential has a Detroit Locker, but a lot of the weight of the Jeep was on the rear bumper or on the gas tank skid, so even though both rear tires were digging, they did not have enough traction to push me through this. Just a little bit of help from that left front tire would have made a big difference.

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
  • nolid5nolid5 Member Posts: 148
    Great description, Tom. Picture helps too.

    Rich
  • drosketerdrosketer Member Posts: 203
    Nice shot Tom. I see what you mean about needing a locker in a situation like that. I somehow don't see myself doing anything quite like that anytime soon (particularly since I don't even have a Jeep yet - I suspect the t-bird just wouldn't do it...) but potentially one day.

    Contrast this with the man stopping along the highway to clean the bugs off his Jeep...
  • erickplerickpl Member Posts: 2,735
    Nice pic. Who took it? Ross Allen in between bites of Mickey D's? :)

    I sure wouldn't want to be standing there if the grip kicked in and you came right at the camera. :)

    -Paul
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    No, not me! Sounds like an exclusive club. You have to register before you can browse the boards to see if you like it. After you register you find you still can't browse the boards! You have to wait until you've been approved by the administrators, as in....."Although you have registered, your registration has not yet been approved by our administrators. Thus, we can not give you access to the forums at this time. You will be notified by email as soon as your registration has been either approved or declined."

    Guess I'll just have to see if I'm worthy :-)
  • mac24mac24 Member Posts: 3,910
    I live in the southern part of the US and wheel as often as I can, which unfortunately doesn't mean regularly. Probably the same sort of stuff you do. Out of respect to my vehicle and wallet I avoid rockpiles, deep water/mud, and body damage. Having been actively involved in off road competition elswhere in the world, I've done that in purpose built vehicles (and a lot of fun it is too!).

    Don't worry about being at only a 2" lift. With a good 2" and 31's you can do anything someone with a 3" and 33's can do. The next step up is to 35's, which require a lot more engineering and money to fit.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    As Tom, the bug-wiper, mentioned yesterday, management around here frowns on links to or promotion of competing auto forums. Something to do with ad revenue and server costs. Thanks,

    Steve, Host
  • twylietwylie Member Posts: 619
    Tom, I'm gonna rib you a bit here... Were you aired down at all when your rear tires were digging? I know you normally don't air down at TB, but I bet you could go down to 18 or even less without any worry of losing a bead. The additional traction and ride comfort of running low air pressure can be pretty dramatic... If you haven't yet, give it a try and see if makes a difference in your terrain.

    I almost lost a bead a few months ago, but was running 14psi and had most of the weight back and against (off camber) the drivers rear tire. In the video I sent you a link to, you can actually hear the air escaping in a couple of "gasps". Once I got through, I checked and was down at 8.5 psi, which will work on level terrain, but is too low for my personal comfort.

    Downside of airing down for us "lift challenged" vehicles is giving up additional ground clearance is never fun. The OME should solve some of that for me when I get a chance to get down to Brandon's for an install party.

    Even running street proessure, you're still my wheeling hero, Tom <grin>. Anyone that embraces it to the point of going 2 or 3 weekends a month gets a big THUMBS UP from me!

    -twylie

    -twylie
  • grk235grk235 Member Posts: 17
    Noticed that the driver's shoulder harness will lock if pulled out quickly ... I understand that this is normal.

    Problem with the passenger side though ... very difficult to get it to lock, even when jerked very quickly. Will only lock one out of four or five times.

    Back seat belts do not seem to lock -- not certain how they are activated ...

    Any ideas? Could anyone try their Wrangler's shoulder harnesses and let me know?

    Thanks.

    03 Rubicon, armor, jks discos
  • jenbradleyjenbradley Member Posts: 2
    Hi all,

    I am very seriously considering getting a Jeep, after spending some time offroading for the first time in my life. I was an exhilirating experience! :)

    I had a few questions I hope someone could possibly answer about the Rubicon:

    1) According to Edmunds.com the TMV is only a few hundred dollars above invoice. Does this include the Rubicon, and how should I figure in the $1000 cash back that expires next week? For example, if the invoice price is $27000 and the TMV was $27200, should I offer $26200? I saw some lucky soul got his for < $26000, I don't know how he did that! Was that in California?

    2) As I mentioned, I will be a newbie to offroading. I will start off slow but I would like to get more and more into it and eventually go on more challenging trails. Is getting the Rubicon overkill?

    3) I am okay with the driving noise, since my daily commute is < 5 miles but how is the Jeep when it comes to long distance driving? For example, if I have to drive several hundred miles to get to nice offroading locations, will the noise be too much to bear? Will I go deaf? ;) I am going to go test-driving this week but I'm just wondering how other people feel about it for longer distance drives.

    4) Any hints on whether I should just get the hard top or if I should get both hard top and soft top? Do the types of doors matter? I do plan on driving in the snow during the winter, so does the soft top make it unbearable or is there any difference between the hard top and soft top in this case?

    5) I heard that the Jeep has bad blind spots. Is this true?

    Thanks so much for any advice!
  • grk235grk235 Member Posts: 17
    I have owned a Rubicon since January of this year ... previously a 2000 Sport.

    1) Can't help much on today's incentives ... I bought mine for near invoice in Texas.

    2) I don't believe the Rubicon is overkill but a lot depends upon what you plan to do with it. Strengths are front and rear selectable lockers(which are explained well in previous posts), front and rear Dana 44 axles, diamond plate rocker guards, more aggressive tires, 4.1 low gear ratio for crawling, etc. Many of these features help in difficult offroad situations and are standard on the Rubicon. Some folks would rather build up their Jeep ... I simply don't have the time and the DC warranty was attractive.

    3) Good question ... my commute is less than a mile. Don't know what it would be like if I spent a extended period of time in the Rubi.

    4) I only have the hardtop ... maybe someone else can comment.

    5) No bad blind spots other than the spare tire ... I use side mirrors.

    03 Rubicon, armor, jks discos
  • drosketerdrosketer Member Posts: 203
    Not sure on the seat belts, but when I test mine manually that way they also don't always lock. However, I have never had a problem with them not locking when I needed them to. I know, my technical know-how is stupendous... ;-)
    Perhaps someone more knowledgeable will wade in.

    What have been your impressions of the Rubicon as opposed to the sport? Obviously the Rubi has advantages off-road, but how have you found it for the day to day kind of use?

    Andrew
  • grk235grk235 Member Posts: 17
    I guess what concerns me is that it is so easy to get the driver's side to lock compared to the passenger's side. I simply grab the harness, yank down sharply and it locks ... passenger side (more often than not) does not. I will check with the dealer and post the results. Sad thing is that odds are the dealer will say "operates properly". Not exactly something you can fix yourself. I would hate to find out the true answer by being in an accident.

    Rubi versus sport ...

    Day to day on-road use the differences are almost imperceptible. Have found the lockers, particularly rear, to be a distinct advantage in my limited offroading so far. I was in the almost identical situation tsjay posted in the picture above last weekend and the lockers allowed the tires with traction to ease me through it. I had one front tire and one rear tire in the air and the "third leg" was my rear differential (with Warn diff guards). My nine year old daughter was less than impressed but my six year old son thought it was too cool.

    Bottom line, I like the Rubicon -- I think it would be hard to duplicate for the dollars.

    03 Rubicon, armor, jks discos
  • embeedueceembeeduece Member Posts: 260
    I can't find the options I want in the 03 inventory. Any idea when the 04s will be hittiing showrooms? I know the 04 GCs, and the 04 Freedoms are there.

    Thanks.

    -Mike
  • tsjaytsjay Member Posts: 4,591
    Well, "Southern U.S." does narrow it down some. :)

    Hey, do ya wanna come wheel with me sometime? Turkey Bay is a great place to wheel. There's stuff there for everyone. There are trails that don't even require four wheel drive, stuff that there's no way I would even attempt, and lots of good stuff in between.

    Think you would like to come over sometime? Email me.

    tsjay49@earthlink.net

    Tom

    Have you hugged your Jeep today?
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