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n/m, just wanted to brag that I'm visiting friends at their off-the-grid straw bale home and running the laptop off their Rolls batteries (yep, that Rolls) that are kept charged up by their solar panels. No plug in hybrids here (yet!), so they keep an Echo for longer trips and have an old 5 speed Subie for when the snow falls here in northern New Mexico.
You think that's bad - try commuting on a bicycle. But I bet my Trek bike gets better gas mileage than any car or motorcycle.
So I, being one of The Few, The Brave, The Chosen, signal and try to move over. So they just cut right without signaling, to pass on the right, forcing me back into the left lane with a jerk of the wheel. Apparently 300 yards lead time isn't enough for them.
Lately, I just move over anyway, nice and slow. Let THEM get the tight sphincter. No signal? screw you.
The real scary thing is the ones that drive crazy are the ones more likely to be without a helmet and wearing just shorts and sandals.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
ROFL!!
When I'm riding my bike I like to stay away from the street areas as much as possible. Really. I don't entertain grandiose plans of "riding with the big boy trucks and cars on the road." And then doing the little hand signals to signal my intention.
Not gonna happen. I'd rather stay off the roads, on the sidewalk, etc. I would not trust today's car drivers to not hit me while riding my bike. I mean, I've passed bicyclists that give you about 10-12" of leeway when going by them in my car. Whassup wid at?
Hello! Bikerider alert here! Not everyone can drive a car safely! A lot of them are on drugs of various sorts, talking on their cell phones, eating jelly donuts, changing CD's, etc. Be careful! That same feeling I get when watching a movie and the camera shows a car driver looking at someone sitting next to them while blabbing. And they don't look back at the road fast enough. Notice how a lot of times they do hit something, or someone?
Gets me concerned. :surprise:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Yeah, sometimes there can be that problem. Now I don't have a problem with bicyclists sharing the road...but all to often, they want to OWN the road! A couple months ago, I was driving in my Silverado, going up a VERY steep, narrow, windy road. A guy on a bicycle was in front of me. He was trying to pedal up that hill and was going so slow that my speedometer was barely registering. I finally did get to a safe, wide spot in the road and passed him. But I mean, c'mon...if you're going so slow you could almost get off and walk faster, you don't need to be holding up traffic. If I was creeping up a hill that slow in a car, holding up traffic, I'd have some pretty irate drivers behind me! And if a cop saw me doing it, he could actually write me a ticket for impeding the safe flow of traffic!
The thing that irritates me the most though, is how they just blow through stop signs and red lights...or ride against the flow of traffic. They do things that endanger themselves, and then get their noses bent out of joint when the inevitable happens!
And again, I reiterate, not ALL bicyclists are like this...but I see plenty that are. And it's really stupid of them to be like that, as vulnerable as they are.
I should give them credit for risking it in a sea of trophy wife SUVs, brain-addled yuppies, and meth-heads, but at the same time, maybe they are just too dumb to run from the Russian roulette of the roadways here. Several have been ran down already this year. It's not worth it to flaunt the green image.
The ones that are the worst in our area are the teens on the little bikes. They ride in small swarms. They will in unison cut across 2 or 3 lanes of traffic to get on the other side of the street. I would hate to hit one and get blood all over my shiny SUV. I would probably run over the little twerp to make sure he was dead.
We also get a lot of weekend touring bike groups. They seem to like our back country roads. Even though there is no bike lane. They do slow up traffic from time to time. Not enough to get me upset. Just seems dangerous. I like riding on the dirt roads out behind my home. It is the safest except for the rattlesnakes on occasion.
So I can upgrade from base ICE civic to civic hybrid for $4000? Thats a very compressed range. The base civic with auto can probably get 33 on hwy. If the civic hybrid could get 47 mpg, it would use 902 less gallons in the first 100,000 miles than the ICE civic. $4000/902gal=$4.43. Gas would have to average $4.43 a gallon over the 100,000 miles to break even on fuel alone. What is the most remote possibility: 1. gas will average $4.43, 2. hybrid civic had for $21,500 plus tax, 3. original hybrid owner will still be driving it at 100,000 miles?
A Civic hybrid is about $23000 MSRP. The Civic ICE with the same equipment ( apples to apples ) is about $20000. In the case of the Prius the 2nd package is about $23500 MSRP but until gas hits $4.50 you can get them at invoice for about $22000. And...there is an even less expensive model beginning at about $20500.
As to the trend in fuel prices I don't think it's at all a stretch to estimate that prices will move up about ( at least ) $.50 per gall each year from now on.
Your avg cost for 5 yrs at this rate of inflation would be $4.00 /gal
For 7 yrs it would be $4.50 /gal
For 10 yrs it would be $5.25 /gal
I actually think it will be worse than this.
In terms of longevity of the vehicle that is only your decision. The MINIMUM warranty in the US on the hybrid systems is 8 yrs / 100,000 miles. For a good number of states this is 10 yrs 150,000 miles. It's only up to you if you want to keep a vehicle that long.
If you want to trade early then you also come out ahead because you don't 'spend' that entire hybrid premium, you recover a good part of it at trade in time.
Summary: Whether your drive a hybrid for 2, 3, 5, 7, 10, or 15 yrs you will always come out ahead vs a similarly equipped new vehicle; HCH vs Civic, Prius vs Matrix, FEH vs Escape.
Additionally, since people don't walk into dealerships with $20 K cash, but finance their vehicles over a number of years, the price difference means very little. Especially so when Honda offers 2.9% rates.
With ZERO down and a three-year loan, the costs are:
Civic Hybrid ------ $640
Civic I.C.E. ------ $550
The $90/month premium for the hybrid comes with the $2,100 tax credit and a monthly gas cost reduction of $50 for the average driver (1,300 miles per month). That's at the current gas price of $3.10/gal. If it goes to $4, the monthly cost savings goes up accordingly.
That is far from automatic. The demographic for hybrids will many times be saddled with the AMT. That mean NO tax credit. Our lovely Senate was working on doing away with AMT. They got bogged down and it is still very real.
I see no compelling reason to buy a hybrid under the current price structure.
I know you really believe what you are saying. I would agree, IF you are a high mileage driver. For the average 12k mile per year or less driver, it is not so cut and dried. For the long tern owner it is probably a bad deal. There is more to go wrong with any hybrid vs ICE only vehicle. Maybe you can enlighten us on just what IS covered by the EPA/CARB mandated warranty. So far it seems to be just the battery. There are thousands of dollars worth of gadgets and stuff that are not covered. Such as the very high priced catalytic converter. Plus the biggest problem with hybrids is finding an independent repair facility. I would have never considered the new Sequoia if I did not have an independent that I trust to work on it after the warranty is up. I did buy the 7 year Platinum coverage. I would not trust any new car without an extended warranty.
prices will move up about ( at least ) $.50 per gall each year from now on.
Your avg cost for 5 yrs at this rate of inflation would be $4.00 /gal
For 7 yrs it would be $4.50 /gal
For 10 yrs it would be $5.25 /gal
I am not much of a math wiz, however my crude calculation is different than yours. If gas goes up 50 cents per gallon for 10 years it would be $8.25 cents from today's price. It would not be $4 in 5 years, it would be $5.75.
PS
I don't think that will happen. It would be in our best interest to conquer a few of the oil rich countries that are a thorn in our side.
..it encourages the buyers to drive more efficiently and use less fuel which we will soon desperately need;
..it encourages the manufacturers to invest in new technologies;
..it will have some beneficial effect on the environment;
..it helps keep our money here in this country and doesn't fund those who wish us ill will.
BTW that 8.8% sales tax on the $2100 comes to....does it matter?
You may not 'like' hybrids but there is no denying now that they will save money, all of them, over their ICE counterparts in both the short term of 2-5 yrs and in the long term of 7-15 yrs. The math is the clear and subject only to one key variable..distance driven. For drivers who don't use the roads much there's no advantage, from about 7500 mi annually and upward the numbers all favor the hybrids.
If you were in the market for a Civic in the top trim why wouldn't you pay less for a hybrid over an ICE?
2007 $3.00/gal
2008 $3.50
2009 $4.00
2010 $4.50
2011 $5.00 ===> Avg for 2007-2011 is $4.00/gal
2012 $5.50
2013 $6.00 ===> Avg for 2007-2013 is $4.50/gal
2014 $6.50
2015 $7.00
2016 $7.50 ===> Avg for 2007-2016 is $5.25/gal
Your point on the Extended Service Agreement is a good one. All vehicles on the road now are much simpler mechanically and yet much more difficult to repair at the same time. It has nothing to do with hybrids or non-hybrids, all the electronic modules and special equipment are 'off the chart' from what we all knew in the 90's.
BTW, you right about the catalytic converters being about $1000 each..I got quotes from $800 to $1300...but that goes for every vehicle in the Toyota lineup. The Sequoia has TWO!!
All vehicles on the road now are much simpler mechanically
How do you figure that? I am willing to bet a 1987 Toyota Camry had a LOT less parts than a 2007 Camry. And the Camry hybrid you have to add another 3rd to that figure.
If I have a 4 year old Camry that is out of warranty and needs a new Catalytic Converter it will cost about $63 aftermarket. What will that same part cost for a Camry hybrid? I cannot find anyone except Toyota that makes them. Hybrid parts are all going to be more expensive than ICE only, by their rarity alone. Toyota knows this and will make a fortune repairing OOW hybrids. They already are.
The OEM cats cost that much since they're pretty much built to order. A stock-style aftermarket cat typically runs more in the $100-300 range, and you can get them for less if you weld on your own flanges. There are also people who will buy your old one.
Yes,,, $200 matters very much. It matters enough I really don't want to give it away to a Government that will squander it on pork projects. I'll give it to a homeless person first. Nothing like a good bottle of MD 20/20 to help you forget your problems.
If I lived in the city a hybrid might be just what I need, but most of my driving, what little we do, is rural and long distance. More suited to a diesel than a gas electric.
In most areas it is as illegal to ride a bike on the sidewalk as it is to drive a car there. Bicycles are vehicles and have as much right to the road as any other vehicle, as defined by the DMV in every state.
When some idiot in a car honks or yells to get off the road I give them my standard one finger wave.
I've never spent more than $85 for a direct-fit catalytic converter from such companies as Walker, etc. for any of my cars (non-Hybrids). By direct-fit, I mean drop out the old cat, and bolt up the new one, as it has the correct flanges already welded onto the converter. And from my experience, the Walker cat is as good as any OEM cat, and looks exactly like the OEM. I've had the car emission tested before and after, and no difference. I currently have 135K on one car with the after-market Walker, and it's still fine. In fact, it (so far) has outlasted the original.
The only difference is the astronomical price added by the auto maker. Making Hybrids more expensive to maintain over the long haul. Another thing with vehicles like the Prius. When the Cat goes my understanding is the computer shuts you down. It is tow time to the dealer. This was from a poster with a 2001 Prius that had the catalytic converter die. Cost them over a grand as it was out of warranty.
I don't have a competitive drive to run them off the road. I just wonder what they're smoking in trusting drivers the way they do. Ask cops if they trust oncoming drivers when they're making traffic stops.
In Arizona we're supposed to go over to the fast lane( if such exists on the road we're on) if we come up on a cop making a traffic stop. Once we get past their vehicles we can merge back over to the right lane. Makes good enough sense but apparently not to the bikerider mentality. Oh well.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Remember doing well under the speed limit holding up traffic on a bicycle is just as inconsiderate as doing it in a car. If traffic gets behind you be considerate and pull over.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
The catalytic converter on my uncle's '03 Corolla went bad. Dealer wanted $1500 to replace it. A local chain store muffler shop wanted $2000! I ended up taking it for my uncle, to a local independent shop that I've used in the past for my Dart and my pickup. This guy was able to get it done for about $595.
I think that bikerider's lack of consideration has gotten many of them killed. Sad but true, eh? There's a lot of car driver's that don't wanna fool around, they're trying to get somewhere, etc. Bikes don't move very fast at all, large variance in speed here. Need to turn the brain on a little more when riding bikes on roads.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
For reference the 1997-2006 Camry Cat is only $62 after market. Says better than OEM. I imagine the 2007 will be one of those HIGH priced puppies. Screw the consumer is the name of the game.
Actually, his Corolla has been a pretty good car up until recently. In addition to the converter, it started running hot this summer. Didn't actually get to the point of overheating, thankfully. I can't remember what caused it...either the fan or the water pump. It also has something like 145,000 miles on it, so I guess it doesn't relaly owe him anything. Still, it does lend credence to the theory that modern cars will be reliable up to a point, and then dump on you all at once!
This has also been a bad year for my 2000 Intrepid. I've had to sink about $2000 into it so far this year (suspension work, two new tires, new front brakes, transmission cooling lines, new coolant/hoses, and a few other odds and ends). And to top it off, the check engine light just came on this past Wednesday! :sick:
I'm hoping the catastrophic converter in my Trep isn't starting to go bad. That was the sign that it was going bad in my uncle's Corolla...check engine light. But, that light covers everything under the sun, so it could very well be something minor.
My uncle bought his Corolla Memorial Day Weekend, back in 2002. He works in construction, and was about to get transferred to a location that would take his round trip commute from about 100 miles to more like 140-150. His 1997 Silverado was already pushing 100,000 miles, so he wanted to get something new, cheap, and economical, to sacrifice in place of his Silverado.
He'd probably have even more miles on it, except about a year ago, his company got bought out, and he got transferred to a new job site that's about 100 miles away! Thankfully though, he only has to drive about 45-50, to the home office. Then, he plays chauffer, using a company-provided Ford F350 (or F-something or other) crew cab to take himself and a bunch of his coworkers the rest of the way.
I remember my 2000 Intrepid, purchased 11/6/99, hit the 100,000 mile mark on Christmas Eve, 2004...not quite 5 years and 2 months after I bought it. It now has around 137,000 on it, so in recent years it hasn't been pushed nearly so far.
Hybrids are a great test platform to teach manufactures how to build electric cars but battery technology has to vastly improve to be viable. To me it is a duplication of effort both internal combustion engine combined with electric motors and batteries. There is an issue of how do we recycle all these batteries, after 100K mile they deteriorate.
Why not use diesel engines If you can get the same fuel economy and reduced emissions with one power-train why not go that direction? With inter cooled turbos and direct injection, Diesel technology is now at the same emissions, power and performance as gasoline engines. However it has 30% better fuel economy. I think this has great potential in the short term. Butanol can easily be adapted as an alternative for bio diesel and conventional sulfur free diesel. I welcome feedback. Thanks.
Translation: it might spend more energy than it makes.
I think you maybe relying on old information? It was perhaps that way in the past but now a company called ButylFuel has developed a process to economically process Butanol from all sorts of bio-mass at $1.20 per gallon. There web site is www.butanol.com.
Butanol is presently manufactured from petroleum. Historically (early 1900s – 1950s) biobutanol was manufactured from corn and molasses in a fermentation process that also produced acetone and ethanol and was know as an ABE (acetone, butanol, ethanol) fermentation. However, as demand for butanol increased, production by fermentation declined mainly because the price of petroleum dropped below that of sugar when the USA lost its low-cost supply from Cuba around 1954.
Butanol is used primarily as an industrial solvent. The worldwide market is about 350 million gallons per year with the U.S. market accounting for about 220 million gallons per year. Butanol currently sells for about $3.70 per gallon in bulk (barge) and $6.80 in 55 gallon drums.
Butanol is also a replacement for gasoline as a fuel, to an even greater degree than ethanol, due to more favorable physical properties, economics, safety and the fact that it works without having to modify the engine of your personal car.
What are the economics of the ButylFuel, LLC process?
This will not be known in detail until we complete testing on the B-100 (100 gallons butanol per week) Demonstration model and the B-1,000 pilot plant. However, we can share the results of estimates we developed to established the merits of proceeding with these phases of the work.
Our preliminary cost estimates suggest that we can produce biobutanol from corn for about $1.20 per gallon,
because they don't offer journalists all expense paid factory trips to exotic destinations? or just because they are BIG ?.... Hey I am a retired dealer and I 'd like to think I know a little bit about cars . I don't think GM sits on a pedestal ,but they do know how to build that dream car you "CLAIM" to be looking for.... Chevrolet Geo Metro and Pontiac Firefly were the best fuel mileage cars that OTHERS are striving to mimic TEN YEARS LATER!!!! Hey Gm would you consider retooling for the needy public...no changes required just a nice, simple, sweet, high fuel mileage, reliable Geo .... THE probability is ...the "experts" will crucify it and the public won't buy. CAUSE IT WOULD BE DOMESTIC....sigh such is life
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/sbs.htm
It only weighed 1,800 lbs. because it didn't have all the safety equipment that the federal government requires on current cars.
Nobody bought it because gas cost a dollar a gallon in the 90s.
Actually, earlier versions of that car, when it was known as the Chevy Sprint, may have come close. Now with the automatic, air conditioning, 4-door body style, or the bigger engine, forget it.
I have a 1985 Consumer Guide that tested a Sprint. It weighed all of 1504 pounds, had a 5-speed stick, a 1.0 3-cyl engine that weighed 150 pounds, and rode on 145/80/R12 tires. EPA estimate was 47/53, under the old rating system. It's down to 39/47 with this new system they just came up with.
I'm sure that, if driven gently enough, and in the right wind and road conditions, you could probably break 60 mpg.
Now, by 2000, the Metro with the 3-cy/5-speed was down to 39/46 (32/41 with the new rating system). The 4-cyl/automatic was down to 30/34 (26/31 new system). The automatic's biggest shortcoming is that it was just a 3-speed, with no overdrive, so the engine was over-revving on the highway and wasting fuel. One of my friends had a 1998 Chevy Tracker that was like that. I think it was EPA rated at 23/24! It would pull about 3500 rpm at 55 mph! Now he has a 2006 Xterra, which probably has close to a ton on that Tracker, and nearly 3 times the horsepower. But it also has a 5-speed automatic, and is rated at 16/22. He usually averages around 17-18 in mixed driving, but with that Tracker, he rarely broke 20. At 55 mph I think it'll loaf around 1500 rpm
The 1994-95 Geo Metro owners reported on your posted site that on average they would get 45 MPG combined. With some owners getting over 50 MPG with mostly highway driving.You cannot consider the new fueleconomy.gov ratings for a 10 year old car accurate. They have not tested many of the new cars and NONE of the older cars. It is purely a mathmatical equation. Instituted because the hybrids were so far off with the old test.
I would imagine the people getting 66 MPG in Canada were using Imperial gallons. Plus overall their speed limits are lower and more closely adhered to. I rented a Geo Metro once many years ago and did not like it. I would rather have the Honda CRX which would get 50 MPG on the highway. I would take that over the current Civic hybrid or Prius, just for its handling and simplicity. When I see 10-15 year old hybrids still on the road I will believe they are a good choice.
145K miles in 10 years is about normal. Doing it in 4-5 years is a lot of driving, but I once put on nearly 60K in a year.
Our Lexus is starting to get a bit long in the tooth. It has 92k miles after 19 years.
19 years will do more to a car than 92K miles.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
That is true. It is what I base my criteria of a good automobile on. Longevity to me is much more important than a lot of miles. Our LS400 has always been in a garage. So the paint and leather are nearly new looking. It gets used more for running errands where it will be parked in public places. I would hate to get a scratch on the new Sequoia. It will stay in the garage except for longer trips. The LS400 still gets about 19 MPG around town.