Are gas prices fueling your pain?

texases

One other problem - butanol's toxic and partly soluable in water, so we could have the same problem that killed MTBE - contaminated water supplies.

gagrice

The LS400 starters you changed, were they the early V8. I was under the impression they are under a lot other crap. I have all the tools. Just quit using them about 20 years ago. I may give it a try. Worse comes to worse I have AAA tow it to the shop.

lemko

You got that right! I hope my 1988 Buick Park Avenue runs forever as it is both great on gas and cheap and easy to repair.

lemko

Easiest fix for a check engine light is a small strip of electrical tape over it.

lemko

The bendix? Shoot, my Dad had a 1968 AMC Javelin that ate them for breakfast! Has the power steering pump ever given out on your wife's Lexus? I heard they were a weak spot on those cars as well as the electroluminescent gauge cluster.

vchiu

Hello everybody, good to see a few familiar faces.

I propose the moderators to update this thread name into $5 a gallon, as it seems $4 was/is being reached, right ?

1 liter of premium 98 gas cost about 1,5 Euro in Paris. that makes about 8,5 USD per Gallon. Isn't life better in the US?

Will you switch to a hybrid?
Well, a Prius cost more than 30K EURO (45K USD) in France if I want the GPS and leather. My policy is never to put more than 15K USD in a car, and I won't find second gen Prius on the used market, so no. Or I really need to increase my revenue.

Will you dump your SUV/ truck for a car/ crossover?
I dumped my 740i but it is rather because of my company going bankrupt. Either way I certainly save on gas.

Bought a 1997 Peugeot 605 for 4200 USD
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peugeot_605. Average FE is about 11L/100 KM = 21-22 MPG give or take 3MPG.
This is the vehicle I use when in France. One fill-up from nearly empty may shoot above 120 Euros = nearly 180 USD... and this is no SUV. This will give me 450 miles. 40US cents per mile...

In China (where I live most of the time) I drive a 30mpg FIT. One US Gallon cost about 3,6 USD. Prices are fixed by the region authority. A fill up costs about 35 USD. for roughly 350 miles.

Will you drive less?
In France : Yes, or I try to drive my 1978 Citroen Ami8, 32HP, 73 MPH top speed 35MPG instead.
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citro%C3%ABn_Ami_6,_8_et_Super

Will you switch to Asian makes?
Some times, I hijack my mother's 1999 Nissan Primera SW, 27 MPG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Primera.

Will you add accessories that help you save gas?
No. Maybe I will put a sticker to cover up a nasty rust spot on the back. This sticker would say : "I want to save earth!"

Will you drive in a more conservative manner... the so-called light-foot?
Emm... I used to set the cruise control at 100 mph. now I set at 90 mph. This is where I get about 21 mpg. Of course, mortorway journeys tend to be more boring.
to do. A previous car , 1998 406 SW with same engine but with taller gears and better Cd returned the same figure at 100 MPH, so I guess it was just more FE.

Anyway, the highest fuel consumption I experience are always when I am locked in one of Paris numerous traffic jams. I try to avoid this situation like the flea.

Also, if you were driving in 70s when oil rose to all time high, what did you do?
No, too young to drive.

Well, I put some of my commute on my reliable 1996 125cc suzuki scooter. I drive it full throttle mostly and it returns 65 MPG faithfully.
Some time, when I feel I can afford it, I take my 1200GSX roaster out and settle for 31 MPG.

In France, whenever I can, I take the mass transit. Problem is it is a minimum 15 minutes drive from my place, 30 minutes when more traffic. No bus option.

In China, this is simpler. My place has no mass transit at all. Just a few buses overdue for the breaker's yard, belching a huge and thick cloud of black smoke that would make a coal burning steam locomotive's exhaust gas look like a breeze of fresh air.

andre1969

Easiest fix for a check engine light is a small strip of electrical tape over it.

LOL...yeah, that'll work for a little while. Until the next emissions test comes up and they do an OBD-II scan on it! :sick:

imidazol97

>OBD-II scan on it!

The do-gooders in Ohio finally got rid of the ECheck tests in certain counties. Now we will suffer oxygenated, low-mileage fuels and pay more than the $10 per year the tests cost.

They wouldn't even have OBD-II checked because they turned the motor off an turned on the key to be sure the SES light turned on having a good bulb and then that it turned off after the engine started.

ateixeira

I owned one, actually, back in college. Mine was an '86 model, with 48 hp of fury! LOL

I think I averaged about 45mpg, with a manual trans.

Thing is, that was a tin can. It was so tinny that my girlfriend (now wife) refused to ride in it.

Those were not the good old days, believe me. Today, a Honda Fit or Nissan Versa seems like a stretch limo compared to that econobox.

It was good at the time - a college kid just needed cheap wheels and gas prices spiked during Operation Desert Storm.

Next car I owned was a Ford Escort and that was a HUGE step up, believe me.

tpe

I doubt those old economy cars could pass today's emission tests. I believe that's one of the big reasons that today's small cars don't get the mpg that some of the same sized vehicles of the mid 80's were capable of achieving. Edmunds article on the Smart ForTwo car gave an estimate of 33/40 city/hwy mpg. This is a car that weighs 1800 lbs, only seats two and is powered by a 1.0 L, 70 hp engine. As far as I'm concerned that's not all that impressive. It's a reason why I question this rational that the automakers need to be making smaller vehicles, with less powerful engines. The Smart car takes this to the extreme and I don't see a dramatic mpg benefit when comparing it to a Civic or even a 4 cyl Accord despite the fact that there is a dramatic size and power disparity.

Mr_Shiftright

The Smart is rather old tech, is the problem. I can't imagine the company having the resources to start a whole new engine technology.

lemko

My girlfriend's first new car was a 1986 Chevrolet Sprint with the mighty inline 3-cylinder engine. Hers was an automatic, so it was even slower. She later traded up for a 1991 Mercury Tracer.

ateixeira

Up is they key word when you say traded up.

If hers was an LTS, that's funny, because it had the same powertrain as my Escort GT. Both got the 1.8l DOHC engine from Mazda, basically.

Any how, I can see living with a 1.8l engine, even the 116hp 1.6l in my Miata is adequate (just barely, and on a light car).

The 1.0l in the Sprint was another story. It's just not well suited to highway acceleration, in fact we should not use the word "acceleration" at all. It was more like "eventual speed gain". Erosion is quicker.

nippononly

"Erosion is quicker"

bumpy

They didn't. The engine in the new fortwo is an upsized version of the 660cc mill in the Mitsubishi i.

la4mead

Bummer the discussion turned to the peeve department...

"In that exact same situation I have seen them zip between me and the car I am passing (or the car passing me whatever the case may be) still doing 90-100 MPH. That is just way to stupid.

The real scary thing is the ones that drive crazy are the ones more likely to be without a helmet and wearing just shorts and sandals."

Yes, there are irresponsible idiots on motorcycles, bicycles, as well as bigger, heavier vehicles. However this forum's not about them.

So I'm wondering since when did this discussion get changed from responsible and economical use of fuel to bitching about irresponsible behavior? There are lots of examples of especially bad drivers/riders/bicyclists, but we've gotten off track complaining about folks who are irresponsible, and the fact is that this isn't a discussion about pet peeves.

Not all drivers of cars are inattentive, distracted, or hostile. A very small number of motorcyclists (generally not the commute riders) are the offenders, and generally do themselves in or learn to ride more maturely. And commuting by bicycle, you learn it takes all kinds, including some other bicyclists who don't think stop signs apply to them. But let's get back on the discussion topic, because peeves are a different issue than economical (and safe) usage of personal transportation. Get a grip.

Mr_Shiftright

Still --a 5 year old engine design at least. Not bad, though. I hope Smart has something new up their sleeve to improve fuel economy. There are fairly large cars hitting 40 mpg---Camry hybrid, Altima hybrid. This still gives Smart only one good card in its deck. It ain't pretty and it ain't all that economical and it ain't fast and it ain't cheap. So, what have we got here for the consumer?

Smallness.

ateixeira

I may have been the one that brought this up, so let me go back to my original point.

I don't think a motorcylce is a viable option for a lot of folks due to climate and safety issues.

I agree with la4mead that there are good and bad riders, as well as good and bad drivers, but the fact is you share a road with both, and this is all the more reason to give yourself a bit more protection than a motorcylce offers.

So all these counterpoints have only reinforced my point - I have kids that depend on me and simply opt not to expose myself to the harsh weather and hostile roads that a motorcyle would encounter in my area nowadays.

My original point remains.

Actually, my original point has been reinforced.

Thank you.

bumpy

I hope Smart has something new up their sleeve to improve fuel economy.

The start-stop mild hybrid is already available in Europe, which would add a few points to the city mileage, and the Bluetec diesel should be along in a year or two. The Camry and Altima hybrids might come close to the fortwo's mpg, but they also cost twice as much (and the Altima is only available in seven states).

What kind of numbers do you think the fortwo would have to sell in the US and globally to be considered "not a failure"?

ateixeira

Well, the Mini Cooper is consider a success, yet it has low volume.

I will toss out a number - 20k/year. Any less and they'll lose money.

Anyone know what the actual forecasts are?

Mr_Shiftright

I would think about 50,000 units a year. Something similar to Rover.

MINI is not low volume BTW. They've probably sold more cars in a few years than SMART has sold in its entire history.

ateixeira

Is that for USA only, or globally?

That number is awful high if you mean USA only.

I meant 20k sales/year in the US alone.

Mr_Shiftright

No globally--correct.

Yeah, I think Smart would have to sell about 50,000 a year to stop bleeding red ink, because the US sales would have to underwrite the company.

But these are just WAGs on my part---I really don't know the numbers it would take to keep the Smart alive. I was just implying that it's either smash success or leave town.

bumpy

Smart global sales were 112,100 in 2006, but that was split between the old fortwo and the now-discontinued forfour.

larsb

for $299.46. Buy one, ride it to work. Park the beast.

ateixeira

That implies they're probably hoping for bigger numbers than either of us had in mind.

Good luck with that!

Mr_Shiftright

those electric bikes suck unfortunately. I either owned or test drove lots of 'em. They have no range and once the batteries are dead, they are like peddling an ice cream truck.

I did see a ZENN today, very nice looking electric car.

http://zenncars.com/specifications/specs_index.html

http://zenncars.com/features/features_index.html

Strictly a city vehicle, but I could easily do all my shopping, errands and local socializing within the given range. Price is right, battery replacement not too bad, and it's a "real" car.

Not as versatile as a free-way capable Smart, but will demolish it on gas mileage of course (allegedly the energy equivalent of 245 mpg) and in storage space.

So if you bought one of these as a second car for $14,000, and used it say 10000 miles a year (27 miles a day), and thus didn't use your primary car that got 25 mpg, you'd save about $1,400 a year in gas and no doubt more because of low maintenance.

You might say "ten year payoff, big deal" but what other cars pays itself off in 10 years? or EVER for that matter?

If you put $5K your monthly payments on a Zenn would be $175 a month and your gas savings would be $116 a month, more or less.

fintail

There was a piece on a Canadian TV show last week about the ZENN - I like how it's made in Canada yet not approved for Canadian roads. Sharp.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh THAT'S clever---LOL! Well we have a dealer where I live, already doing business. The car's kinda cute, seems larger than a Smart, but definitely a micro, not a sub.

bumpy

So if you bought one of these as a second car for $14,000, and used it say 10000 miles a year (27 miles a day), and thus didn't use your primary car that got 25 mpg, you'd save about $1,400 a year in gas and no doubt more because of low maintenance.

Hmmm. The top speed is 25 mph and the range is described as "up to 35 miles", which isn't going to be accomplished at 25 mph. Six 12-volt batteries with 63 amp-hours each is only about 4.5 kwh (and in practice you can only use 80% of that). 27 miles a day every day will run those down in less than two years to the tune of $2,000 a pop. The money you don't spend on gas will be spent on replacement battery packs.

snakeweasel

It ain't pretty and it ain't all that economical and it ain't fast and it ain't cheap.

Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If it hits the mileage its touted to get it will be economical, who needs fast? especially in a daily commute and if you don't think its cheep try buying your Camry hybrid or Altima hybrid for anywhere near the price of a Smart.

snakeweasel

Would need to get more that "up to" 35 miles on a charge to be viable. That 35 miles wouldn't suffice my 25 mile round trip commute when the return leg is during a blizzard that slows traffic to less than a crawl and has me running the heater and/or defroster at near maximum force with the headlights on.

Mr_Shiftright

It's absolutely not meant for that type of driving. It's 100% low speed metro car. That was the design goal. An errand-taker, local delivery wagon, etc. Multiple short trips.
Of course there is "opportunity charging" as well. The idea is that these fleets can plug in at certain places, like Home Depot, the supermarkets, etc. and would have designated parking spaces. So you could get an extra 10 miles built on while you shop.

snakeweasel

If its not ment for that type of driving then it is pretty much useless. It would mean that me and she who must be obeyed would have to have three cars no just two. The added cost of having that third car would be prohibitive due to the limited utility of the vehicle. The money saved on "multiple short trips" would never make up for the price of the car.

texases

Shades of the Citicar

stever

I moved the "Motorists don't pay their fare share" thread over to the old bike paths discussion and renamed it. Here's the link:

steve_, "Who Pays for our Roads?" #39, 27 Nov 2007 8:12 pm

It'd be great to see some more comments, especially ones that broaden the topic out to the social costs of subsidizing roads (assuming we are subsidizing them. :shades: ). Thanks!

Oh, if you have a better title, please speak up (I'm not sure that we're ready to raise the ante on this one to $5, Vchiu).

vchiu

Uh? I thought you would command me for my restraint...
Maybe if $5 is too conservative or too short term (and I guess it may be) how about $6 ?

My own forecast is that the barrel may well reach $200 within the following 36 months. We won't need for the administration to raise more gas tax, the market will cope for it.

gagrice

The Zenn is not as practical as the Xebra. You cannot take them on streets posted over 35 MPH in CA. The Xebra barely makes that as it will go 40 MPH. It is just another in a long line of golf carts. Good for retirement communities not most cities.

sitron

I have a 1999 Geo Metro that has an automatic transmission and I want to put a manual 5 spd trany in it. Will it swap out?

stever

Heh, be careful what you wish for!

Crude dropped "big" yesterday and a barrel is at $94 and change.

(Sitron, try one of the Chevrolet Metro/Geo Metro discussions).

snakeweasel

Well yes you can if you want to spend the money to do the modifications. A 1999 Geo Metro (I thought they stopped making them before then) wouldn't be worth it. But hey its your money you can throw it away if you want.

larsb

I guess it depends on the bike. I just bought an IZIP Trails Aluminum electric bike for $580 and I'm riding it to work these days. For me (190 pounds plus about 15 pounds of cargo daily) It has a "usable" range of about 8 miles per battery, and you can opt to put two batteries on it (like having a reserve tank - when the one battery runs out you flip the switch and start using the second battery) for extended range. The batteries are $99 each.

It is very "rear heavy" and does not coast worth a crap once you stop peddling. But it has a 7-speed gearbox for the "human-powered" peddling side and it seems to work fine. My commute is 6.4 miles each way and it has gone to a "low power" reading each time near the end of the commute, but has not run out of juice - that's why I say the usable range for me and my particular setup appears to be about 8 miles.

So someone even with a commute as long as 16 miles each way could use this bike. The battery will not operate unless the rider is doing at least a LITTLE BIT of peddling, and in 7th gear with minimal to moderate effort I can cruise at about 20 mph.

I'm using the bike in the "cool months" here in Phoenix and will probably go back to using my Segway when it warms up in April or May.

tpe

You might say "ten year payoff, big deal" but what other cars pays itself off in 10 years? or EVER for that matter?

Good point. I'm not sure why when people talk about buying an EV they have to justify this purchase in terms of when it will pay for itself. If you wanted to go out and buy a Miata as a second vehicle nobody would question it yet it obviously will never pay for itself. IMO, EVs have merits beyond just the fuel savings. Of course that's an individual and subjective point of view but many if not most car purchases are based on individual and subjective preferences.

bumpy

It was the Chevy Metro after '97, and the manual swap could be done, but it's a lot easier to simply buy one that is already a manual.

texases

Somehow spending money that way turns things into a political/economic discussion, just like all the analysis around hybrids. Nobody asks for the rate of return on a $2000 nav system or a $4000 stereo. I'm looking at the Camry hybrid as a can't lose option - gas stays at $3, pays off during my extended ownership, and I get a new tech toy to play with. Something bad happens in the Middle East, gas goes to $6, when available, it's now my go-to/car pool/only car to drive and it pays off immediately.

scottinky

had the chance to get one at an auction at a charity event a couple
weeks ago, it went for 19K. I regret not raising my hand.

1racefan

"Nobody asks for the rate of return on a $2000 nav system or a $4000 stereo"

That's a good point, and people should spend money for what's important to them - whether it's a GPS or a hybrid. After all, that's why we work, so we can buy some things we want.

"I'm looking at the Camry hybrid as a can't lose option - gas stays at $3, pays off during my extended ownership, and I get a new tech toy to play with"

See - the "new tech toy" is what concerns me. If my GPS unit dies after the warranty period is over, I can live without it. If part of my hybrid system goes out after warranty, I will have to take it back to the dealer and pay BIG $ to get it repaired. I guess I want to wait until the technology has been around a little longer, and "Joe's Repair Shop" on the corner is familiar with them, so I will have options for repairs.

"Something bad happens in the Middle East, gas goes to $6, when available, it's now my go-to/car pool/only car to drive and it pays off immediately"

I see your point, but I own 3, 4 cylinder vehicles. 2 of them get high 30s on the hwy and 30 around town. The other is a 4wd, SUV (4 cylinder) and gets high 20s on the hwy, and mid 20s around town. When I look at my fleet, I can't justify swapping one of them out for a hybrid. The additional expense, risk, and uncertainty don't outweigh the rewards for me. So yes, the argument does come back to one of economics and convenience in my case.

sitron

So you say it can be done. Isnt the body chassy the same whether it is auto or manual, as far as the swap? and have you done this or know someone who has? I have a manual trany out of a 97 metro and I will do the work my self.

Mr_Shiftright

It's not "useless". It's very useful for those who know how to use it. I mean, a rake is useless for cutting cheese. That's nor a fair argument. The topic after all asked us what we will "DO" if gas gets prohibitively high. That means what changes will one make to one's life style.

IAn adjustment in behavior, seems to me, is concurrent with any discussion about saving energy, or money, or resources, or even one's surrounding landscape.

What's "useless" to me would be a tool that costs the same as the one you replace and doesn't do ANYTHING better. The Zenn doesn't go fast or long distances but it sure give results in the gas mileage department.

If one's purpose is to maintain a $1 a gallon lifestyle, then the Zenn is not for you. If the purpose is to knock down one's annual gallonage, the Zenn is extremely useful.

And yes, it probably IS a third car, but the idea is to diminish use (substantially) of the other two cars.

Sure, if you live next to a freeway entrance ramp out in the sticks, this car isn't for you.

It's a METRO car, a vehicle designed and dedicated only for short hops at low speeds BUT with all the safety and convenience of a normal car.

It is not a golf cart by any stretch and it's not for outside city limits.

bumpy

You need a lot more than just the transmission itself. You also need the clutch pedal, the cable, all the brackets for that, the shifter cables, the shifter itself, all the brackets for that, maybe different transmission mounts and crossmember, maybe a different ECU. It's not something you can get done in a weekend.