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Comments
No you can't. Trust me. lol.
Nice try, though.
The Mercedes is superior in every way, and especially in the suspension/ride quality, body structure and motor longevity areas.
The new E and C class Mercedes (of which the E class is the more proper size) are both infinitely better than any Mercedes since the 80s, and have returned MB's reputation for impeccable build quality and safety standards.
The Genesis is along the lines of an Avalon or Maxima.
I'll go for that.... However, why must everyone compare the Genesis to vehicles costing thousands more. It doesn't make sense. Sure there are similarities, in size, power and amenities, but that is where it ends. I own a Genesis and its a fine automobile. It is NOT a Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, or Infiniti. Like others have mentioned, compare it to an Avalon, Maxima, 300, G8, Lucerne etc. Against all those it holds up really well. The only vehicle of the group that may better the Genesis in V6 form is the Avalon. I guess what I am getting to is instead of saying the Genesis is almost as good as 50-60K+ cars, say its at the "top of the class" for upscale large sedans (which is what it is!)
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
Is the Yamaha is a poor man's Stradavarius?
Will the overall design still remain classy or dated?
What will be the resale value be in comparison to the orginal price?
How will the materials stand up to normal wear and tear.
Will the name "Genesis" be accepted by car buyers as a true luxury automobile.
Only the test of time will answer these questions.
Awww come on fedlawman. Car's aren't musical instruments. Their characteristics are easily measurable. Sure, some of the characteristics are a matter of taste, but most are easy to compare. ( I call a Stradivarius a fancy fiddle, valuable and useful only to a few very serious musicians and collectors)
I think $30K cars should only be compared to other $30K cars, and $40K cars compared to $40K cars. That ends all the confusion and comparison of apples and oranges. It also makes the Genesis a deadly serious competitor in their price range.
Hyundai is not treading lightly, though I trust they are being careful. They are releasing at least 7 new models in the next 3 years. They have done an excellent job of making a car for every niche (ala Toyota), and have only 2 or 3 to go. If the economy were better, I'm sure they would even release a line of trucks.
I don't agree. How do you measure suspension compliance? Steering feel? Driveline refinement? Two automobiles may have the same brake pads/rotors, the same tires, same shock tuning, etc. and yet be completely different driving machines.
BMW and Mercedes have mastered the art of building a car that absorbs road imperfections, corners flat, and has outstanding steering response, without numbness or float. They coddle, isolate, and involve the driver all at the same time. The Genesis is not in this league.
"I think $30K cars should only be compared to other $30K cars, and $40K cars compared to $40K cars. That ends all the confusion and comparison of apples and oranges. It also makes the Genesis a deadly serious competitor in their price range."
I agree completely. This is the point I was trying to make. The Genesis, nice as it is, just does not compare to any of the luxury European automobiles that have been mentioned in this thread. They may appear similar on the surface (size, features, trim, etc.), but the differences under the skin are profound.
PROFOUND???? Paaaleeease!!!! I beg to differ sir! It does compare extremely well to the so called luxury brands your opinion talks about. Yes that's my opinion...oh and it's also Ron Kiino (Senior editor - Motor Trend) professional opinion...you can view it here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ochX-BOQrfY
Whoever bought this car...enjoy it AND congratulations, you bought a GREAT car! Whoever didn't should OPEN their mind (this is the hardest part) and at least try it. It's not for everyone...some will hate it (obvious reason here) and some will love it.
For me...It's one of the best cars out there to be had at a great price. I LOVE my Jenny...
Ciao,
As I've said before, I was impressed with the Genesis when I drove one a couple of months ago. But perhaps my experience with a low optioned V6 is different than a loaded V8, because my experience driving the V6 didn't match the reviewers impressions in the video.
I found the dynamics (driving feel, chassis refinement, steering response, etc.) to be nice, but not Mercedes or BMW nice. I thought it felt more like a very good Honda Accord or Toyota Camry, which is not a dig on the Genesis. The Accord has nice driving dynamics (a fantastic driveline with a bit too much cabin noise/harshness), and the Camry is just the opposite (smooth and quiet, with numb and soft dynamics). The V6 Genesis, in my mind, blends the best qualities of both, with richer appointments and better styling.
Regarding the Genesis vs. the Europeans, I found the differences to be significant. The Genesis felt good, but the Europeans are sublime. They absolutely go down the road with a grace, confidence, and feel that the Hyundai can't match.
Perhaps the V8, being heavier and having different suspension settings, tires, steering, etc. (I don't know what specific differences there are) rides and drives better than the V6? I can't say - I've never driven the V8. But, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
I believe you did drive different cars...he drove the V8. To me there's a big difference to the V6. I am not putting the V6 down in any way shape or form...what I am saying is that there's a significant difference with the V8.
I test drove both the V6 (for about an hour) and immediately drove the V8 (for an hour too) right after and couldn't believe the difference.
Regarding the Genesis vs. the Europeans, I found the differences to be significant. The Genesis felt good, but the Europeans are sublime. They absolutely go down the road with a grace, confidence, and feel that the Hyundai can't match.
It amazes me how much difference in opinions between human beings are.
My friend who drives a 2008 BMW 750i said "I'm amazed at this car after he tried my car! (V8/Tech)
My opinion says it's in the same league as the big boys.
Regarding the Genesis vs. the Europeans, I found the differences to be significant. The Genesis felt good, but the Europeans are sublime. They absolutely go down the road with a grace, confidence, and feel that the Hyundai can't match.
Hate to disagree but I have too. It matches to me.
Perhaps the V8, being heavier and having different suspension settings, tires, steering, etc. (I don't know what specific differences there are) rides and drives better than the V6? I can't say - I've never driven the V8. But, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Here I agree with you...believe me there's a difference with the V8 and that's why I bought the V8.
Actually this reviewer expresses my opinion to a TEE! Actually what is coming out of this guys mouth is exactly what I'm saying...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OyApvcTkXE
Regards,
I know and understand refinement. The last degree of refinement just doesn't do that much for me. When you spend north of $30K on a car, you should expect a nice car that drives very well. By all accounts, that's what you get in a Genesis.
I have to admit that some Euro cars have more refined driving habits than the new Genesis.They should, they are in an entirely different price class, and have been refined over many years to just 1 year for the Genesis.
Spending more gets rapidly diminishing returns. You can spend $10-$20K more and have to wear your thinnest underwear and cock your ears to feel and hear the difference. That tiny difference may be worth a few bucks to me, but certainly not $10-$20K.
The real question is,,, Is the Genesis refined ENOUGH. The answer for me is a resounding YES. I think the Genesis hits a sweet spot, where in order to get a little bit better car, you have to spend a lot more. Some are willing to spend a lot for a little more, but not me. Good! It would be boring seeing nothing but Genesisizzz on the road.
Excellently put. It is enough. And for some new owners the refinement/luxury level might be overwhelming since they were former accord/camry and other fwd mid size cars owners.
And it is definitely refined enough for its class. I have stopped by my dealer to get oil changes and i do see quite a few bmw and lexus used cars on the lot(meaning most likely those were traded in for the genesis). Hyundai probably doesn't care to resale any of them and would keep them on display as a trophy to examplify their accomplishments
But, diminishing returns for your new car dollar don't necessarily begin at the Genesis.
Is a Mercedes E-Class worth $19,000 more than the Genesis? For some, the answer is no. But for others, the Genesis isn't worth $12,000 more than the Honda Accord or Toyota Camry.
It's a personal decision, but the point remains - you don't get something for nothing with cars.
Same scenario applies to newer versions of their other models.
Stepping up in price from Genesis to an E-Class, one doesn't get a lot of tangible amenities for their $19K . They get a LOT more stepping up $10K from an Accord/Camry to Genesis. Just the cabin room, the quiet, and he RWD is substantial without mentioning the rest.
Some might place a high value on the E350's superior telematics, more robust active/passive safety features, and 7-speed transmission. Others might think Mercedes styling, brand cachet, and dealership experience (before and after sale) add value to the equation. Others don't care about seat belt pre-tensioners for rear seat occupants, automatic collision notification system, or retractable heated headlight washers.
And likewise, some buyers don't about FWD or RWD (can 95% of buyers in this segment even tell the difference?). Cabin room, noise, etc. are important considerations, but again, many won't think that an extra inch of rear legroom or 2 dB of sound deadening is worth the premium. Many buyers think that getting the V6 and leather seats is a waste and would rather save money with a 4 cyl Camry.
Again, it's a personal value call that will vary with each individual. For you, the Genesis fits a perfect middle-ground where the value matches the content. This is what makes the Genesis such a great car for Hyundai. It stands alone in this middle-ground - nobody else has a car to compete directly with it.
On the other hand some might take exception to the E350 because of very arrogant dealers, extremely high maintenance and repair costs, sub par electronics, historically poor reliability, squeaky/squealy brakes, tons of brake dust and just plain being overpriced. Otherwise a fine car.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I've never encountered arrogant dealers.
Parts are pricey, but maintenance is the same as any other car after the warranty period.
Electronics/reliability did suffer with the cost-cutting of the previous generation cars (early - mid 2000's). The W211 was notorious for problems, and M-B took a lot of knocks for it. M-B says this has been corrected for the 2010 E-Class. M-B's reputation depends on it, so we'll see.
Squealing and dusting brakes are the unfortunate by-product of high performance components. Do you want clean wheels or powerful, fade-free brakes?
I do agree they are overpriced though...
It seems like there are discussions about the suspension and if it matches the taste of the poster, the pedigree and if it matches the expectations of the poster, and some subset of posts discussing actual vehicle features.
I think the "pro/anti" thing is kind of silly. Its a car. It either meets your needs/desires/expectations or it doesn't. If it meets your criteria, it seems like a strong purchase. If it doesn't for whatever reason that might be, I think there are plenty of other opportunities in that price range.
My opinion is its a very compelling vehicle. I was impressed with the time I spent with the V6 and the V8 and how some of the features were implemented. I thought the HD radio was one of the slickest I've seen, although I think the iPod integration is still behind benchmark leaders (behind Ford, ahead of Honda). I liked the driving dynamics and found the ride quality acceptable. I felt a sense of quality in the interior.
I don't think its a car for me, as it doesn't match what I am looking for in a vehicle, but that isn't a fault of the Genesis. If I was a little bit older and not as much of a driving enthusiast, it would be high on my list. I would still find it preferable to vehicles like the Lexus ES and Mercedes C-class but behind the Infinit G35/7 and BMW 3-series. Probably not a bad place to be, especially for the first time out.
No, my point is that cars possess many subjective qualities that cannot be measured by test equipment.
I could have used any number of examples...
Can a chemist test the composition of a $600 bottle of Balvenie 30 Year Scotch and make an objective determination that it tastes better than a $60 bottle of Glenlivet 21? Can a whiskey aficionado justify purchasing such an expensive bottle of scotch?
Can an audio engineer feed test tones into a pair of $25,000 Revel Studio2 speakers and objectively determine that they sound better than a $1500 pair of Infinity Classia speakers? Can an audio enthusiast justify spending that much money on a pair of stereo speakers?
Glenlivet is fine single malt scotch. The Infinity Classia is a terrific sounding speaker. The Genesis is a very nice car.
As it should be considering the starting price of the Accord is much more than that of a Sonata. I purchased my '02 Sonata GLS for the price of a fully loaded Civic or a base model 4 cyl Accord.
While I agree with everything you said, how many true car (or scotch, or audio)aficionados are there out there? I submit there aren't many. These groups are so small that they practically all know each other. You're talking about a few thousand out of 300,000,000 Americans. They march to their own tune, and haggle passionately over trivialities and nuances that the average person has never even considered. I have a bit of that gene in me, but in my , uh, maturity, I have grown to appreciate practicality. Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Mazda, and Nissan have a bounty of practical cars that are still comfortable, reliable, and well appointed. I think the Genesis is the current champ in the $30-$40 non-prestige luxury category.
The starting price of an Accord is much more than the starting price of a comparable Sonata, especially back in '02! I paid $17,800 for my '02 Sonata GLS, comparably equipped Camry & Accord was running around $23K.
Based on that number there, you tell me which car took the greater hit in depreciation. Based on the '05 models used, the Accord took a 26% hit while the Sonata only took a 19% hit.
allmet - you know better than this.
% means nothing, it is of course, all about gross dollars.
If the Accord costs let's say $4k more than that Sonata to buy (a fair assumption) but was still worth at least that much more after any given period of time then that Accord is as cheap (or cheaper) to own than that Sonata. No rocket science here.
This is the basis of the ad campaigns that Honda is currently running about the Civic and Accord. Honda's basis for this claim is TCO numbers as published right here on Edmund's and I believe is based not on depreciation from MSRP but on depreciation from Edmund's 'market value' (TMV). This compensates, at least in part, for the fact that Hyundai products tend to sell at higher discounts than Honda's. Whether or not you choose to believe them- and want to contend that the Sonata sells cheaper than what Edmunds is assumming (or FTM that the Accord might also sell cheaper) - is entirely up to you.
The Genesis will fare very well (from a cost-to-own point of view) versus those cars that cost substantially more, let's say those BMWs/MBs etc. despite the fact that the BMWs, for example, have far better resale retention (on a percentage basis). The Genesis should, however, cost more to own than some of those similarly priced (and more directly competitive?) cars like the Avalon/TL etc.
You mean to tell me that % doesn't factor out in gross $$$???
Okay, let's make it even simpler...the amount of money lost on the Accord is $17K vs. amount lost on the Sonata, $14500.
How's that for gross $$$. If you're crunching numbers, would you want to spend $23K to lose $17K or would you hedge your bet on spending $18K only to lose $14500??? Spend less, lose less and keep more in your pocket.
Simply ... if this was really what happens, then the Sonata would be cheaper to own - wouldn't it?
Based on a 5 year time period (and about 75k miles) that is NOT what Edmund's/Intellichoice/KBB numbers all say, is it? Honda might well be shading the truth, as ad campaigns tend to, but do you really think they are making this stuff up?
It will always be difficult for folks that are prone to buy things because they are cheaper to then understand that cheaper now doesn't necessarily mean cheapest later.
Oh yeah, an my car was paid for after the 2nd year as well. So seriously...the numbers they come up with...don't add up for me.
The point that's being missed here is that most every car that can be compared to any particular model of a Hyundai, will almost always be worth more at trade in simply because it cost more to purchase to begin with. A bigger deal could be made if an Accord cost less than a similarly equipped Sonata (brand new) and 5 yr/60k miles down the road it was worth more than that same Sonata with the same age/mileage. However, for giggles...let's say the rate of depreciation between Honda, Toyota & Hyundai were dead even. If an Accord & Camry cost $6k more than the Sonata and they all suffer from 26% depreciation...which car fared better???
Which car cost less?
Oh...and you must be talking about the Accord LX with the 4cyl engine for $19,500, because it certainly wouldn't have gotten you the V-6. So at that point...you're not even buying the same amount of car. Compare model to model my friend. I paid $17,800 for a Sonata GLS w/V-6...an Accord with the same options as the Sonata was around $6K more.
OK, both buyers live in Idaho, so sales tax is 6%. They both put $5000 down and financed for 5 years at 4.9%.
2004:
Honda: $19,500 + 6% tax = $20,670. Minus $5,000 down = $15,670. Financed for 60 months at 4.9% = $295/mo.
Hyundai: $17,000 + 6% tax = $18,020. Minus $5,000 down = $13,020. Financed for 60 months at 4.9% = $245/mo.
2009:
Honda - Total financed $295 X 60 = $17,700 + $5,000 down payment = $22,700. Minus $9,500 trade = $13,200 total cost.
Hyundai - Total financed $245 X60 = $14,700 + $5,000 down payment = $19,700. Minus $5,000 trade = $14,700 total cost.
Honda Accord LX V-6...$22,600
Hyundai Sonata GLS V-6...-$16,999
If you look on Edmunds, the highest price listed for both as of now:
Accord...$12,265
Sonata...$5,379
Price difference between new and now:
Accord....$10,335
Sonata...$11,620
Difference between the two:
$1285
The Accord had to start out $5000 more than the Sonata to retain a $1300 dollar advantage 7 years down the road. Is that REALLY that remarkable???
That being said, what would the numbers look like if the Accord cost the same as the Sonata.
No, in price, features, and performance, the 4 cylinder Accord was the closest competitor to the Sonata GLS V6.
Accord: 2.4L 160hp I-4. 0-60 MPH in 8.5secs
Sonata 2.7L 170hp V-6. 0-60 MPH in 9.1 secs
EDIT: OK, looking at the options list, maybe the Accord EX 4-cylinder is a closer competitor (standard ABS and moonroof on the EX). I don't think it would change the math significantly.
Are you talking 2002 or 2004? 2002 Honda 3.0 was producing only 200 hp, it wasn't until Nissan dropped the Altima that Honda jumped in with the 240 hp 3.0...no?
You're starting to sound like those ad folks that will tell you that a certain car (car a) gets better gas mileage than similar cars (cars b & c)of other makes. What they don't tell you is that car a is a 4 cyl and cars b & c are V-6's. While techncially...they are right, we all know that's like showing up to a gun fight with a knife.
OK, I'll go along with that. Thanks for the lively discussion!
Always a pleasure. Keep up the good posting too!
The 4 cylinder Accord LX outsells all other trim levels by far. It is the ubiquitous Honda Accord - much like the Sonata in GLS trim.
Closest in price, performance, and features - the two cars that would most likely be cross-shopped by a real world consumer. In my humble opinion...
Yes, a pleasure. And now it's almost time to go home!
I can't fault you for the cross-shopping point of view, but when I go looking for a car. I see how much it costs to get everything almost the same. Like I said before...my Sonata GLS cost me around $6k less than a comparable Camry or Accord at that time. I also didn't feel paying that extra money was worth the horsepower gain I would have gotten from either of the other two. Beyond that, I got every other feature and amenity that the others were offering.
OHHHHHH...that's where that shoe print came on top of my shoe! :surprise:
Definitely made the day fly by.
Agreed! Nice discussion!
When you guys listed the prices, were they actual selling price, or sticker price? With Honda's small discounts and Hyundai's large discounts, that can be a big factor in the resale value. I got my '06 GLS with 234hp V6 for $16600. If I remember correctly, a comparably equipped Accord that year would have cost me over $6K more. I'm not even sure I would have gotten ESC on the Accord for the extra $6K.