Midsize Sedans 2.0

carboy21

howtogeek.com/229945/the-new-apple-maps-vs.-google-maps-which-is-right-for-you/

Apple maps vs Google maps

stickguy

thanks. I did not realize Apple had made that much progress. maybe I will give it a try next time I am looking at google maps to compare the 2.

at least now I know how Google managed to get such good info on traffic speeds.

suydam

I know. I had put the app in my "seldom used" box! But it even has some advantages now. I live in the country, and Google maps WILL NOT show me some obvious rural highway shortcuts. Now Apple maps displays all options. I'm giving them another look.

robr2

Controversial is a stretch. One reserve deputy sheriff in CA is on a personal jihad (his words) against Waze's police reporting function is a police stalking app and it it makes it too easy for cop killers to find where the police are. IMHO, he's a bit paranoid.

stickguy said:

berri said:

Waze - is that the one that is controversial because it reveals the location of police?

Yes. reported by users.

robr2

imidazol97 said:

Googlemaps.com also attributes incident markers and accident markers on their
Traffic feature to Waze app. There must be a sharing between them now.

Well Google owns Waze so I'm not surprised.

robr2

I also have a built in nav in our Explorer. I do use it but slowly Waze is replacing it. I really like how it is integrated in the Explorer and sticking a phone up on the windshield is messy.

carboy21

robr2 said:

I also have a built in nav in our Explorer. I do use it but slowly Waze is replacing it. I really like how it is integrated in the Explorer and sticking a phone up on the windshield is messy.

cellphone holder can be clamped when needed on the airvent

imidazol97

robr2 said:

imidazol97 said:

Googlemaps.com also attributes incident markers and accident markers on their
Traffic feature to Waze app. There must be a sharing between them now.

Well Google owns Waze so I'm not surprised.

Well that explains a lot. I learn something interesting every day on Edmunds.
I know when I first started checking googlemaps online for traffic jams
when my wife or son were traveling for traffic jams, they didn't give the
Waze app credit on the accident markers. Recently I happened to click and
found the attribution to Waze.

robr2

I've tried multiple vent clips. They all work like poop. I travel in my job and need ease of use and reliability and none of the vent clips are up to the job. They are too wobbly and I don't like having my phone heated and cooled and blocking a vent.

carboy21 said:

robr2 said:

I also have a built in nav in our Explorer. I do use it but slowly Waze is replacing it. I really like how it is integrated in the Explorer and sticking a phone up on the windshield is messy.

cellphone holder can be clamped when needed on the airvent

carboy21

robr2 said:

I've tried multiple vent clips. They all work like poop. I travel in my job and need ease of use and reliability and none of the vent clips are up to the job. They are too wobbly and I don't like having my phone heated and cooled and blocking a vent.

carboy21 said:

robr2 said:

I also have a built in nav in our Explorer. I do use it but slowly Waze is replacing it. I really like how it is integrated in the Explorer and sticking a phone up on the windshield is messy.

cellphone holder can be clamped when needed on the airvent

amazon.com/Universal-compatible-Samsung-Blackberry-smartphones/dp/B00UIA67B8/ref=sr_1_4?s=wireless&ie=UTF8&qid=1446426127&sr=1-4&keywords=air+vent+holders

robr2

Got a couple just like it - piece of crap IMHO and it blocks the vent.

carboy21 said:

robr2 said:

I've tried multiple vent clips. They all work like poop. I travel in my job and need ease of use and reliability and none of the vent clips are up to the job. They are too wobbly and I don't like having my phone heated and cooled and blocking a vent.

carboy21 said:

robr2 said:

I also have a built in nav in our Explorer. I do use it but slowly Waze is replacing it. I really like how it is integrated in the Explorer and sticking a phone up on the windshield is messy.

cellphone holder can be clamped when needed on the airvent

amazon.com/Universal-compatible-Samsung-Blackberry-smartphones/dp/B00UIA67B8/ref=sr_1_4?s=wireless&ie=UTF8&qid=1446426127&sr=1-4&keywords=air+vent+holders

carboy21

There are three other vents to get air !!

robr2

Not on my side of the car - blocking one leaves one for me.

Blocking the air is just one thing. As I said, I can be on the road for hours a day. If the mounted phone flops around as I try to use it makes it more of a distraction. The vent mounts just are not secure enough for me.

akirby

The best cell phone holder I ever had was a Pro-Fit. It used one of the radio head unit screws behind the bezel to solidly attach to the vehicle and it was rock solid. The fit may be different on different vehicles depending on the dash design but I would give it a look.

robr2

I had Pro-Fits in two of my cars. I looks like they've stopped adding custom mounts in the past few years. They don't offer a custom mount for any of the vehicles I am considering.

Kirstie_H

If you are a parent of young children (at least one under 12 years old) who owns a 2016 Chevy Volt, 2014-16 Kia Soul, 2014-16 Mazda 3, 2016 Honda Civic, 2016 Kia Optima, 2016 Hyundai Tucson, 2015-16 Nissan Murano, 2015-16 Subaru Outback, 2015-16 Toyota Sienna and/or a 2016 Honda Pilot, a reporter would like for you to fill out a survey, due by December 22, 2015, for use in a print publication. Click here for the survey http://bit.ly/1M6rOvA

benjaminh

Midsize sales for October:

Camry 34,781

Accord 30,121

Malibu 24,725

Fusion 23,668

Altima 20,948

Sonata 16,071

Optima 14,381

200 11,905

Passat 8,116

Legacy 5,688

Mazda6 3,563

imidazol97

.

brian125

Its going to be interesting to see up coming sales numbers on New 2016 Malibu model. I think next year will be a good year for that car. Mazda had a bad OCT.

akirby

Someone posted that 15K of the 24K Malibu sales were fleet. That's pretty high.

Sandman6472

Waze is a great app but does use data and the phone uses a lot of power. Best to just plug the phone into the car and go from there. Love that it shows your speed and if traffic is slowing down somewhere on your route. An excellent app for folks who drive a lot!

The Sandman

zigster38

Very Large Honda dealership in Cali has 1 2016 Civic on the lot - and 198 2016 Accords. Guess which model you can get a deal on  

Best midsize is still probably the Accord, but sometimes other brands can't be ignored. Best deals on midsize sedans - probably Ford Fusion. (Or 2015 Passat - fire sale!) Best car that not everyone drives but you can still get a good lease deal on - probably Subaru Legacy. Best deal that everyone else drives - Toyota Potato Chip errrr Camry. 

stickguy

Actually legacy is normally not competitive on leasing.

The Camry, those they practically give away.

Looks like 2015 Passat inventory was slashed. Bargain hunters cleaned up.

akirby

The Ford friends and family sale is really just no haggle pricing - actual ATPs are about the same as before the sale if you were a good negotiator. There is currently a $1750 rebate for my zip code on a Fusion Titanium.

stever

A reporter is looking to get in touch with car owners who are waiting for replacement parts, etc. for their faulty Takata air bags. If you're an affected owner and you'd like to help, please reach out to pr@edmunds.com by no later than Monday, November 9, 2015.

backy

zigster38 said:

Best deals on midsize sedans - probably Ford Fusion.

I dunno... based on deals I see, the Sonata has the best deals at least on leases, with SEs under $200/month "sign and drive" for 3 years. 200s and Optimas also offered with great deals, although the leases on the Sonatas seem a little better than on their cousins.

mtnman1

Nevermind

benjaminh

Ford plans to end US production of the Fusion in a few years, shifting all production to Mexico:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20151109/OEM01/151109820/ford-uaw-deal-shifts-most-car-output-to-outside-u.s.

"....Production of four U.S.-built cars, the C-Max, Focus, Fusion and Taurus, would last only through current product lifecycles. Ford also builds the Fusion at a plant in Mexico, and production of the Focus and C-Max is expected to go to Mexico. The Taurus could be discontinued or built only in a low-cost country such as China...."

berri

Ford always made Fusions in Mexico from the gitgo. They added some US capacity (Flat Rock I think), but apparently either Fusion sales can't make enough use of that 2nd line in MI, or they have some other product planned to replace it there, or Flat Rock is on it's deathbed (but I don't think so).

Mr_Shiftright

I bet employee labor rates is part of this decision. It's so much cheaper in Mexico.

benjaminh

I think Ford, like a few other competitors in the midsize segment, once had dreams that the Fusion could topple the Camry, or come close to it. Producing the Fusion at Flat Rock in addition to their factory in Mexico gave Ford the capacity to make maybe 450,000 or more Fusions a year—if the demand were there. But that kind of demand just isn't there for any midsize car but the Camry. The Fusion is in most ways superior to the Camry, which must be frustrating for Ford, as it is for Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, etc. The Camry is imho one of the weaker midsize cars, and yet sells in huge numbers every year based on excellent quality and reliability, and low prices.

But with Ford moving all Fusion production to Mexico, that does mean that the Sonata, Altima, Accord, Optima, Passat, and Camry, all made the the USA, will have more American content and labor put into them than the Ford, which seems strange....

benjaminh

top midsize car sales in thousands for the 10 months of calendar year 2015:

Camry 361k

Accord 295k

Altima 283k

Fusion 255k

Given the current monthly selling rate, we can guess that for all of 2015 the numbers might end up looking something like this:

Camry c. 430k

Accord c. 360k

Altima c. 350k

Fusion c. 320k

robr2

benjaminh said:

I think Ford, like a few other competitors in the midsize segment, once had dreams that the Fusion could topple the Camry, or come close to it. Producing the Fusion at Flat Rock in addition to their factory in Mexico gave Ford the capacity to make maybe 450,000 or more Fusions a year—if the demand were there. But that kind of demand just isn't there for any midsize car but the Camry. The Fusion is in most ways superior to the Camry, which must be frustrating for Ford, as it is for Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, etc. The Camry is imho one of the weaker midsize cars, and yet sells in huge numbers every year based on excellent quality and reliability, and low prices.

But with Ford moving all Fusion production to Mexico, that does mean that the Sonata, Altima, Accord, Optima, Passat, and Camry, all made the the USA, will have more American content and labor put into them than the Ford, which seems strange....

The addition of Flat Rock brought Fusion capacity to 350,000 units annually which is around 90% capacity.

The Monroney sticker does not take labor into account so it won't have an official effect.

akirby

Ford didn't say they were moving Fusion production out of Flat Rock - they just declined to announce production of a new Fusion model there after the current one. New one is 3-4 years away anyway which is the duration of this contract. So don't read anything into that. They may move MKZ and/or hybrid production out of Hermosillo which would free up more Fusion production there.

Fusion won't see another big jump in buyers until the next gen comes out anyway. It takes several generations of repeat buyers to build up a following like Camcords.

Although I bet Ford is perfectly happy with Fusion sales since they get $4K more for each Fusion compared to Camry. They could cut prices and move up the chart but that wouldn't help the bottom line.

suydam

I thought the Fusion hybrid is a pretty sharp car. But I haven't driven it. Too big for my next car anyway.

benjaminh

robr2 said:

....The addition of Flat Rock brought Fusion capacity to 350,000 units annually ....

Ford's Hermosillo factory has a capacity of 385,000 vehicles. They make the Fusion and the MKZ there, but since the Lincoln model is produced in small numbers, probably Ford could send c. 350k Fusions from Mexico to the US? Although perhaps it's made for other markets as well? Don't know about that.

http://tucson.com/business/local/ford-s-hermosillo-plant-operating-at-maximum-capacity/article_81976558-3be7-5f6e-bb0a-a4abd3bbb5e3.html

Flat Rock has the capacity to make c. 100,000 Fusions a year, perhaps giving a potential Camry-challenging total of c. 450k. But since demand is running less than 350k a year, Flat Rock will be switched to making SUVs at some point....

akirby

Oops. Didn't read the article. Disregard.

benjaminh

from the link above:

"A $1.3 billion expansion in 2012 brought the plant up to its current production level of 385,000 vehicles a year...."

zigster38

Camry fleet sales are amount to around 10-15 pct of sales. They have Hyundai pricing on leases and a reliability rep - hard to beat for the average consumer who doesn't car about engine technology and just wants to go from a to b in a car that the family and friends will approve of.  They will do what they have to to stay on top of sales numbers. 

Ford has admitted their Eco boost engines haven't been what they planned. But the Fusion  is a huge step forward over Taurus, Tempo, etc. they need another huge jump next gen to keep up. As far as plant, Consumers don't seem to care as much much anymore about where it's made. 

I i agree the dark horse to 2016 sales is the Malibu - everyone seems to like the 2016 style and if they price it well it might take a big sales jump. My cousins, who live is a "non-urban' area of Cailfornia just keep buying Chevys every 8-10 years when they need a new car. Wouldn't occur to them to buy anything else. They still have a Monte Carlo I think.

stickguy

new malibu does look sharp. But the picture I saw of the interior (dashboard) didn't work for me. Kind of old fashioned and busy maybe? Though need to see it in person to really tell.

suydam

Still feels cramped inside in an odd way that the Cruze doesn't. Can't figure out why.

benjaminh

zigster38 said:

...Consumers don't seem to care as much anymore about where it's made...

I think some people do care. When you include all the jobs from the nearby factories that are suppliers, the huge Camry factory in my state is directly or indirectly responsible for tens of thousands of good-paying jobs. Same goes for the Accord in the Ohio area, the Altima in Tennessee, the Sonata in Alabama, the Optima in Georgia, etc. I like to think that when I put my hard-earned money down on a car that it's circulating and supporting jobs somewhere in the USA. It's true that some people don't care. But some people still do. Of the top five best-selling midsize cars, I think four of them are made in America. And all five of them are if you include that a significant percentage of Fusions are still made in Michigan at this point.

wayne21

We rented a Malibu early this year. It was actually quite nice. We were impressed. The passenger seat went up and down which made my wife very happy - she could see out the window. The interior materials were also rather nice. The 4 cyl lacked power and was noisy, but it had plenty of room. I wouldn't want a GM product, but if I did this would be a car I'd consider (if it had a 6 cyl). The Altima was a fine rental - 40+ mpg! I wouldn't have believed that if I wasn't the one putting the gas in. I would buy this car over the Malibu if it had to be a 4 cyl. The camry was fine, but that the typical Toyota interior with the cheapest materials known to man. On our next to last trip we asked for an Altima, but they "upgraded" us to a buick verano. I had never heard of this car. IMHO it was a piece of crap. I think it was the worst thing we've rented in years. It was small, had the underpowered & loud GM 4cyl engine and got horrible gas mileage. The only nice thing I can say about the verano is that when we turned it in we learned to never let them give us another one of these.

ral2167

Anyone give me a reason not to consider leasing a leftover 2015 Sonata Limited with an MSRP of 33K that has all the bells and whistles that I could actually use-- like the blind spot, the adaptive cruise control, the button you press that allows you take your foot off the brake while stopped at a light, the memory seats, the Android Play, and the $4000 lease cash? I need someone to tell me no, don't do it.

explorerx4

@ral2167,
How many miles a year do you drive? Does that fit with the lease numbers?

benjaminh

The Sonata is one of the top midsize cars. It has great features, top quality, and the best warranty around. If you're getting a killer deal on it, and love the car, there's no reason not to get it imho. Have you tested the competition? If you already love the Sonata you probably don't need to, esp. if you're short on time and energy. But if you have time, and haven't done it, you might try out and compare the Sonata to the Mazda6, Honda Accord, Ford Fusion, or KIA Optima.

ral2167

I've driven the Sonata-- I like it-- don't love it-- but all those options I mentioned that aren't available currently as a group on the other sedans-- they're intriguing. I'd get a 15K lease.

suydam

In my experience liking doesn't improve with age but tends to go the other way. But then I'm someone who really wants to be in a car I like a lot. But plenty of people lease cars they are ok with because of the value. If that's you go for it!

Sandman6472

Drove a new Fusion last night at work and was duly impressed with everything except the mileage. Comfy with decent acceleration and ergonomically o k once I figured out the infotainment stuff. But just doesn't compare to the Camry mileage wise. But if needed a mid-size vehicle, this is one people need to try just to see what the domestics are capable of.
Whenever we bring rentals to our location at the Ford dealer, they've asked to get a Ford product if possible...and we've had success so far. Mostly Foci, Fiesta's and Fusion's in the Hertz fleet right now of Ford's offerings. But we seem to have all makes and models which is a good thing.

The Sandman


Do like the Malibu's also though the dash is a bit busy.

stickguy

RAL, I won't. that is my car, with the 1 extra package (ultimate?) that I did not get, but nothing really in it that I cared about.

hard to argue with 4K lease cash. I don't want to think how much cheaper I could get the same car now (almost exactly 1 year to the day from when I got mine. But, i don't need another.

really is a nice car, but not something that will get your heart pumping. so, depends on what your needs are.