Midsize Sedans 2.0

benjaminh

Wards calls the new 2016 Optima "stunning":

http://wardsauto.com/test-drives/optima-still-stunner

"Optima Still a Stunner
Test Drive
Nov 16, 2015 Christie Schweinsberg | WardsAuto

....the Optima’s body is built with 150% more high-strength-steel than the outgoing third generation.

More than half of the body, including side rails and A-pillar and B-pillars, is composed of HSS which not only improves crash protection, but driving dynamics, and also makes for a quieter ride.

About that last point, the relative solitude of the cabin is perhaps the biggest noticeable change while driving a ’16 SX Turbo Launch Edition grade here last month....

Kia says it invested heavily inside the Optima, but most of the money appears to have gone to the seats.

Ours are swathed in merlot-colored Nappa leather and quilted in a diamond pattern. They are beautiful, on par with Mercedes-Benz and Audi seats....

The SX and SXL get an upgraded steering system, a rack-mounted power-driven type first seen on the new Sorento CUV.

A 32-bit processor, also on the Optima LX and EX’s column-mounted steering system, makes steering respond faster to inputs, something that was evident during our day of Colorado driving....

Real-world fuel economy is impressive....the LX 1.6T’s combined estimate is 32 mpg..."

zigster38

Article on Bloomberg news this morning - Judge goes along with trial against Ford for lying....errr misrepresenting mileage on Fusion and CMax. After the VW event, this at least deters carmakers from fibbing too much, but when all is said and done consumers will probably just get a small check and an 'opportunity' to buy a new Ford. 

zigster38

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-11-16/ford-faces-trial-on-mpg-estimates-as-judge-refuses-to-toss-suit

stickguy

As long as they followed EPA requirements, don't see how they could be held liable. Don't like the test, sue the Feds.

akirby

Now that is some BS. The lawsuit claims that Ford overstated the fuel efficiency of those models in their advertising, even though they were accurately quoting the EPA figures at the time. The EPA figure (regardless of how you feel about it) is federally mandated and is the only scientifically accurate test for comparing mpg of different mfrs. And everyone advertises "best in class" EPA mileage. I hate these baseless class action lawsuits and ambulance chasing attorneys who encourage and profit from them.

benjaminh

Kelley Blue Book names the 2016 Optima their favorite midsize car:

http://www.kbb.com/car-news/all-the-latest/best-buy-awards-midsize-car/2000011399/

"Like an athlete training a lifetime for victory, the Kia Optima has long been gunning for benchmark status among midsize sedans. The latest Optima, all new for 2016 and now in its fourth generation, has finally earned its crown.

As with any star player, the Optima's success has come through constant improvement. Throughout its life this family sedan has persevered to be better, evolving from an also-ran when it debuted 15 years ago to what it is today: a refined, advanced, rewarding-to-drive midsize sedan with luxury looks at a mainstream price.

In keeping with our automotive-athlete analogy, let's just say the outgoing Optima was no couch potato. It boasted high style, ample power and surprising amenities such as a heated steering wheel, climate-controlled seats and power-folding side mirrors. The all-new 2016 Kia Optima is even more focused, besting not only the outgoing model but edging out rivals in one of the market's most competitive segments.

The 2016 Optima, made at Kia's U.S. factory in Georgia, is available in five trims and with a choice of three engines, two of which use turbo power to do more with less. As expected from Kia, all versions bring a terrific sense of value, from a base LX with family-friendly qualities like a stain-resistant cloth interior and a height-adjustable passenger seat, to the luxury-like SXL with Nappa leather trim, 245-horsepower turbo engine and 10-speaker, 630-watt Harman/Kardon audio system. Innovative tech features include a surround-view camera, automatic emergency braking system, blind-spot monitoring and compatibility with both Android Auto and Apple CarPlay. It adds up to a midsize sedan that's easy to drive anywhere and one that feels -- and looks -- confident in any situation...."

Mr_Shiftright

Did you expect them to champion plants with non-union workers? I mean, just about every American works in his own self interest.

roadburner said:

berri said:

So the UAW looks the other way when people buy Mexican Fusions, but complain when they buy Ohio Honda's and Kentucky Toyota's

Pretty much...

zigster38

Agreed that the EPA provides an inexact regulation and will most likely have to provide more exact guidelines and tighter oversight in the future. That said, automakers going forward just won't be able to wildly overstate their mileage. They will have to be at least close. Ford writes a check, and the Eco-boast engines give way to something better in the next generation. 

ab348

I find it odd that the all-new Optima looks exactly like the outgoing model. Chrysler did something similar a couple of years ago with the 300. At least Kia fixed up the dashboard, though the instrument cluster looks the same and the new steering wheel is pretty ugly - reminds me of Ford's 1967 flowerpot wheel. The writer for Wards found the seats not as comfortable as they looked, and it gets pretty spendy for the top-line model with the Turbo. Still, we will see what real-world pricing looks like. I do like it better design-wise than the Sonata.

benjaminh

Car and Driver has a new ranking for their favorite midsize sedans (although they admit they have not yet tested the new Optima).

http://www.caranddriver.com/flipbook/buy-this-not-that-every-family-sedan-ranked-from-worst-to-best

1. Accord
2. Mazda6
3. Passat
4. Optima
5. Sonata
6. Fusion
7. Altima
8. Malibu
9. Camry
10. Legacy

ab348

I find that C&D list lacking in credibility. It sounds as though they did not even test the Malibu, yet still ranked it behind the Altima, which they did not like. It also sounds like they did test the new Optima but decided to rank the old model anyway. They still say the Passat is available with a turbo-diesel. And the Mazda 6 stands out in the description as being underpowered by comparison to is competitors. Meanwhile they continue to swoon over the Accord regardless of what Honda produces.

I don't know why I would expect better form C&D these days, but I still do.

benjaminh

With the good deals available, my local VW dealer has completely sold out of their stock of 2015 Passats. This apparently is a nationwide issue. From Auto News:

http://www.autonews.com/article/20151116/RETAIL01/311169965/unlikely-hitch-for-vw-dealers

"Unlikely hitch for VW dealers
Retailers say they don't have enough vehicles

Ryan Beene
Automotive News
November 16, 2015 - 12:01 am ET
WASHINGTON -- Two months into the emissions cheating scandal that has sullied the Volkswagen brand, dealers are running into an unexpected challenge: They don't have enough vehicles to sell.

VW-brand supplies are at their lowest levels of the year, and dealers from Washington state to South Carolina say they have only a few -- and sometimes none -- of the most in-demand nameplates in stock.

Instead of seeing customers flee the brand in the wake of its emissions debacle, the VW brand posted flat year-over-year U.S. sales in October as demand for gasoline models surged amid heavy incentives, including a $2,000 loyalty discount for returning VW owners.

The deals helped VW offset the loss of diesel sales, which are frozen by the emissions-related stop-sale order. They also helped clean out much of VW's salable inventory.

Dealers say the factory incentives, bonus programs and other financial aid tools have kept them engaged, and they applauded the help from Volkswagen of America. In a sense, the diesel crisis has resulted in dealers receiving what they've sought for years: competitive pricing to go head-to-head with big players such as Honda, Ford and Nissan.

Still, the supply crunch comes just as VW begins its "Sign Then Drive" sales promotion, which runs through December, and it could undermine what historically are two of the brand's strongest months of the year...."

imidazol97

ab348 said:

I find that C&D list lacking in credibility. It sounds as though they did not even test the Malibu, yet still ranked it behind the Altima, which they did not like. It also sounds like they did test the new Optima but decided to rank the old model anyway. They still say the Passat is available with a turbo-diesel. And the Mazda 6 stands out in the description as being underpowered by comparison to is competitors. Meanwhile they continue to swoon over the Accord regardless of what Honda produces.

I don't know why I would expect better form C&D these days, but I still do.

Typical. They work at pithy quips to degrade the Malibu, despite their not having driven it. Further, they must not have driven the previous generation (13-15) or else why would know the rear legroom was longer than their Kia/Sonata models for the 14 and 15 years. They try to hide that in the mantra of the press rather than actually having sat in the cars or traveled in them in the rear seat.

akirby

zigster38 said:

Agreed that the EPA provides an inexact regulation and will most likely have to provide more exact guidelines and tighter oversight in the future. That said, automakers going forward just won't be able to wildly overstate their mileage. They will have to be at least close. Ford writes a check, and the Eco-boast engines give way to something better in the next generation. 

I don't think you understand how EPA fuel economy testing works. The regulations are very exact when you follow the rules to the letter. The EPA audits about 10% of the vehicles each year for compliance. Hyundai and Ford both had mathematical errors that inflated the results. The other issue Ford had with C-Max is they used a loophole that allowed them to use the Fusion test for C-Max (perfectly legal but in retrospect not a good idea). This had nothing to do with the actual test procedure.

The test parameters are very specific and when followed yield a repeatable test with the same results regardless of who is doing the test (within 2%). So it doesn't matter whether the mfr does the test or the EPA does the test - the results are the results and the mfrs are REQUIRED to put that number on the window sticker. The manufacturer doesn't make up these mpg numbers.

Regardless of the tests that are used, a single number will never ever be valid because in the real world the same vehicle has a huge range of results based on how it's driven. EPA might say 23 mpg combined and you can find folks who only get 15 mpg and some who get 26 mpg and everything in between. It's impossible to get a single number that matches all drivers under all circumstances.

benjaminh

The 2016 Optima is a good example of the big improvements we've seen in mpg over the last 10 years, in part because of high fuel prices (until recently) and in part because of CAFE.

A 2006 Optima got an epa combined mpg of 22.

A 2016 Optima with the 1.6 turbo gets 32 mpg combined.

That's an increase of 45% for a car that's larger, more powerful, faster, and safer.

Alex on Autos seems to like the Optima best for midsize cars. He seems to rank Accord second:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zrVSWq4jPc

nyccarguy

Glad I've got the bottom of the pot Legacy;)

I saw a Fusion Titanium AWD this AM.  It's gorgeous!  I applaud the styling department of Ford.

m6user

That's why the EPA test compares cars and not drivers.

I find it funny that the Mazda6 is always mentioned as underpowered or not zoom zoom enough. What other midsize base I4 has more hp and torque that comes at comparable rpms? Realize it doesn't have a more powerful engine upgrade but those sell very few in other brands. So compared to the 4 cyl competition it has as much or more power.

venture

nyccarguy said:

Glad I've got the bottom of the pot Legacy;)

I saw a Fusion Titanium AWD this AM.  It's gorgeous!  I applaud the styling department of Ford.

If it was sterling gray metallic it was probably mine.

nyccarguy

@venture - I just priced out a nicely equipped 2016 Fusion Titanium. $36K sticker price. a hair over $31K after friends & family & $3K rebate & $750 black friday rebate. I think with some negotiating you could lease this car for around $330 per month (36/15K).

venture

nyccarguy said:

@venture - I just priced out a nicely equipped 2016 Fusion Titanium. $36K sticker price. a hair over $31K after friends & family & $3K rebate & $750 black friday rebate. I think with some negotiating you could lease this car for around $330 per month (36/15K).

Have you driven one? If not you may be pleasantly surprised, but it won't give you the MPG you're getting with the Legacy.

I'm waiting for the re-design, but who knows when that will be? 2017 is *supposed* to be a refresh - whatever that may be. This is my first ever foray into the world of Ford. So far so good, but I have no loyalty.

nyccarguy

2 things about the Legacy I'm not exactly thrilled with are the MPG (I'm averaging 26 mpg) and the "pickup."

sda

nyccarguy said:

2 things about the Legacy I'm not exactly thrilled with are the MPG (I'm averaging 26 mpg) and the "pickup."

I have a hard time believing that the Legacy was ranked that low. Everything I've read about it, including the high score it earned in CU has been positive.

suydam

26 mpg for AWD is actually pretty good.

Michaell

suydam said:

26 mpg for AWD is actually pretty good.

I would agree ... I'm getting about 27 MPG from my Elantra, though that is almost 100% city driving.

m6user

My RDX has averaged 24.5 over the past 4K miles and it has awd and 273 hp. But so much depends on what kind of driver and what type of driving one encounters. If you're commute is stop and go and you push it a lot I think 26 mpg is decent as well.

akirby

Fusion refresh is 2017 (it was all new for 2013). I'd expect an all new Fusion in 2020.

nyccarguy

suydam said:

26 mpg for AWD is actually pretty good.

My car is rated by the EPA at 26 city/36 highway.  I'll admit I don't drive like a hyper miler, but my commute is mostly highway.  I set my cruise at 70 (speed limit 55).  I never expected to get 36, but I did expect 30 given the car's adequate acceleration.

stickguy

I have the same RDX. On a straight hi way run I can push 30. But most tanks are short hop local (wife has 3 mile commute, so that and errand duty) and that has been in the 17-18 range lately. But at least we are putting next to no miles on it. Mostly use the sonata for going places.

robr2

The first tank on the new Passat returned almost 29 mpg with about 20 highway and the rest typical suburban driving. First highway trip later this week.

Old Passat got 30 on one tank in 10 years of records with an average of about 26.

suydam

My Honda Accord is rated 26-36 and its FWD. so I'm surprised that the Legacy is rated the same. That rating is pretty accurate for the Accord. We easily get 36 on highway trips and often exceed it. And generally 26-28 around town. Rare for us to have the mpg be less than 32 when we fill up.

roadburner

My 2007 MS3 averages around 25 mpg, which I think is fine- especially considering that the 2.3 liter turbo pumps out 287 hp with the Mazdaspeed intake.

brian125

The 2016 Subaru Legacy is a good choice for midsizers in the Northeast with its AWD system. Starting to see more in our area.

http://www.autotrader.com/car-reviews/2016-subaru-legacy-2-month-impressions-245886

nyccarguy

I just picked up my 2015 Legacy from Rye Subaru's service department.  Full synthetic oil & filter change,  tire rotation came to about $81.  I had a 2015 Imprezza as a loaner.  Noisy top left corner of the windshield was fixed with a TSB.  Seat release in the trunk was repaired.  I'm very satisfied with my ownership experience thus far. The AWD was a MAJOR selling point for me.  It does not disappoint.  

roadburner

@nyccarguy: You are making the CPO STI seem even more alluring...

nyccarguy

roadburner said:

@nyccarguy: You are making the CPO STI seem even more alluring...

Like I've said before, my major gripe is with the Legacy's ho hum acceleration.  It makes a great commuting sled.  If Subaru would drop a detuned version of the STi's 2.5L turbo motor or even the 2.0L turbo from the WRX & Forester XT under the hood, I'd trade up in a heartbeat.  You have extremely specific tastes in the way a car has to drive and perform.  I think you'd be very happy with an STi.

sda

I had the pleasure of going to the Charlotte Auto Show yesterday. For a medium size city the show is quite good and well represented by all major makes and some others including Maserati. Saw the new Malibu, very handsome. It was an LT with sunroof and cloth interior. Chevy also had the new Volt. That one seemed a little ho-hum in regard to styling both inside and out, but was nice overall. The new Civic had a crowd around it and was impressive. Found it interesting, yet not surprising that the Lexus area had a more mature crowd looking at the vehicles, no one younger than 50 than what I could tell. I am including myself as I'm 56! The Subaru area had a good crowd and got to see a Legacy that must be pretty similar to Bradd's--Premium with sunroof, silver with black cloth. Listed for $26200. I was impressed. I noticed that it has the GoodYear Assurance Fuel Max tires like my Accord. VW had a good crowd, though I heard some side discussions with the VW reps about the diesel fiasco. Guess they get to address that all weekend long. I do have the itch for a new car, but that will have to wait.

nyccarguy

@roadburner - speaking of the CPO STi you are interested in, what's going on with that?

roadburner

It's still there, and they have cut the price again. I'm just trying to decide whether I want it, a Mustang GT with the Perf. Pkg, or a 2012 135i M Sport that showed up at my BMW dealer. I'd probably go with the 1er in a heartbeat(CPO, good options, good price(same as the STI), but it has the DCT, and I'm not sure I can live with it long term...

nyccarguy

STi

roadburner

Yes, CPO with two years free maintenance. It's nicely optioned; a Base STI, meaning no power seats(Yay!) or hole in the roof(Double Yay!)- but it does have H-K audio, navigation, and keyless start.

jpp75

nyccarguy said:

STi

Ditto

explorerx4

The red would compliment your red BMW, nicely.

stickguy

that wing though. Ouch.

ab348

stickguy said:

that wing though. Ouch.

This. Aside from the stigma of driving one of these nowadays - equivalent to the [non-permissible content removed] days of the Civic 15-20 years ago - that wing is just too much.

nyccarguy

For 2015 you can get anSZti with a lip spoiler.

benjaminh

For 2016 we have two all-new midsize cars: the Kia Optima and the Chevy Malibu. And the Mazda6, Nissan Altima, Honda Accord, and VW Passat all get significant improvements. Probably soon we'll get some new comparison tests....

stickguy

I am going to have a lot of interesting new choices in 2 years when my lease is up. Can't wait!

brian125

I think the new 2016 Malibu is going to create good competition for the big boys in this group thus giving us more incentives and buying power. Mazda6 may stand to lose out the most here with the other brands discounting. Surprisingly Chrysler's 200 sells a lot of vehicles but then again how many are going to fleet sales.??

brian125

THIS IS SOME DEAL

2015 lease Sonata $169 3yr/ 36. How do you beat a deal like this ?

stickguy

depends on the fine print, but you can get screaming deals on these. Ton of car for the money.