Midsize Sedans 2.0

nyccarguy

@backy - I wouldn't put too much stock in those rankings. We had a 2007 BMWX3 that was listed as a top pick. The next year, 2008 it got a much worse ranking. The car was EXACTLY the same.

ab348

@sandman_6472 I agree Sandy, the 3's styling with its oversized schnozzola just looks odd to me. Other models wear that design theme better. I think it only works well on larger vehicles.

roadburner

nyccarguy said:

@backy - I wouldn't put too much stock in those rankings. We had a 2007 BMWX3 that was listed as a top pick. The next year, 2008 it got a much worse ranking. The car was EXACTLY the same.

Crash test rankings have never been even a minor factor in deciding what car I'm going to buy....

nyccarguy

@roadburner - exactly. I feel like there are no real "death traps" available for sale as a 2015 or 2016 model.

stickguy

agreed. not a big deal if it got 4-5s and 1-4. Compared to the old days, everything today is vastly safer.

akirby

The only way IIHS can stay relevant is to keep upping the bar with new tests and harder criteria and new ratings. If they told the truth - that even the worst cars today are very safe - they become irrelevant.

roadburner

akirby said:

The only way IIHS can stay relevant is to keep upping the bar with new tests and harder criteria and new ratings. If they told the truth - that even the worst cars today are very safe - they become irrelevant.

Precisely.

imidazol97

akirby said:

IIHS keeps upping the requirements for top safety pick every year. Some vehicles that were top picks last year and have not changed are not top picks this year. Therefore I don't put much stock in these ratings.

IIHS operates like the EPA has been where they are setting the laws (requirements) rather than evaluating what is out there. Now they are mandating active forward collision braking to get a top ranking: not just a warning like my Malibu has of an impending collision potential.

The behavior of the car during a collision which has been artificially set up in a lab situation likely won't mirror your collision with another vehicle, such as in the offset front collision standard. I would like to see also the IIHS repeat collision tests they do with a different example of the same brand vehicle; I suspect they might get varying results.

I view the results as an indicator of the body's ability to absorb a collision's forces in the same manner that the EPA's fuel mileage ratings indicate what a driver might get if they drove under 55 and in a specific manner. The manufacturers design to the crash test just as they engineer the engines and drive trains to maximize mileage in the specific testing ranges the EPA uses.

suydam

I'm all for raising the bar. The continual improvement in safety would not have happened without requiring them.

akirby

imidazol97 said:

akirby said:

The behavior of the car during a collision which has been artificially set up in a lab situation likely won't mirror your collision with another vehicle, such as in the offset front collision standard. I would like to see also the IIHS repeat collision tests they do with a different example of the same brand vehicle; I suspect they might get varying results.

I view the results as an indicator of the body's ability to absorb a collision's forces in the same manner that the EPA's fuel mileage ratings indicate what a driver might get if they drove under 55 and in a specific manner. The manufacturers design to the crash test just as they engineer the engines and drive trains to maximize mileage in the specific testing ranges the EPA uses.

Well said. I think we've reached the point where these additional tests and requirements are not going to translate to further reductions in real world deaths and injuries.

My real problem is when they raise the bar for newer vehicles they imply that the older vehicles that were previously top picks are no longer safe and that's just ridiculous. It's like grading on a curve where this year a grade of 90 is an A, but a few years later a grade of 90 is a F because all vehicles are above 90.

We've reached the point of diminishing returns but if IIHS admitted that then we don't need them any more.

imidazol97

akirby said:

We've reached the point of diminishing returns but if IIHS admitted that then we don't need them any more.

I agree completely. There's point where common sense is lost.

Mr_Shiftright

Safety picks are tricky to totally rely on, because the complex dynamics of an auto accident really cannot be predicted by a few types of crash test. There's no such thing as a "safe car" anyway, and these days, the degree of risk from car to car might not be so great. Having said that, if a car exhibited a marked deficiency in any one test, conspicuously worse than any other in its class, I'd pay attention to that.

akirby said:

IIHS keeps upping the requirements for top safety pick every year. Some vehicles that were top picks last year and have not changed are not top picks this year. Therefore I don't put much stock in these ratings.

[Deleted User]

sandman_6472 said:

Drove a 2016 Sonata yesterday and was very impressed. Similar dashboard to the Optima though liked the steering wheel controls and the radio better in the Sonata. Radio display is much cleaner with multiple station choices that was somewhat easy to set favorite stations. Seating material was quite good and should stand up well in day to day driving, especially liked the front headrest design. No problem getting up to speed on 595 as I left the Ft. Lauderdale airport area and it drove really nice. Steering was straight and true and there was ample power when needed to pass on the expressway. All in all, a total win for Hyundai/Kia here. 2016 Optima I drove recently drove almost the same so really a toss up here as to which one a person purchases if the choice is between these two. Figuring that the fleet models are the base cars of most that Hertz purchases and would just think the upper level vehicles would have extra/better creature comforts. But these two vehicles are very very good mid sized vehicles and I wouldn't have an issue owning either if we needed such a big vehicle.

The Sandman

Hey Sandman. You know, I did not dig the looks of the new Sonata at all at first glance.....until I saw more and more of them...and then did a complete "about face". The last model was all organic and pinched in the front (like mine but even more pronounced). It was revolutionary at the time, but now looks a bit plasticy and I have no idea which models are Turbo's, 2.4's with dual exhaust, SE trim with single exhaust....just cornfused. base models on the old car (GLE?) was hard to pick out except for the hubcaps, and no fog lights.
Anyway, a lot of magazines said the design was a step "back" in design. I totally disagree now. It is a very nice looking car. Sharp and angular where it needs to be; but still curvy and sexy looking. I really like it. The DRL's and the distinctive taillights are a nice touch, and the interior loks to be a nice office.I give it two thumbs up.

I am terribly sorry, but I can't get the driving dynamics of the Mustang Ecoboost Premium out of my mind. It makes my cars handling just suck. Especially the brakes. Linear and really effective on the 'stang, they feel like rubber on the Optima.

Hyundai Kia......listen up. Driving dynamics is where you are losing almost all the way around. You have proven you can have a gorgeous, reliable car for lots less dough than the competition, and they stand behind their products. Put some good struts/shocks on the Optima and a good set of front brakes with 2 pistons at least, and work on body rigidity and handling as a whole.

Congrats on the new car man. I hope it drives as good as it looks.

sda

imidazol97 said:

akirby said:

We've reached the point of diminishing returns but if IIHS admitted that then we don't need them any more.

I agree completely. There's point where common sense is lost.

The advances made to protect the cabin space, control g forces, and limit occupant movement is great. It is especially telling in the test against the 59 Chevy and 09 Chevy. The driver in the 59 had no chance and the driver in the 09 probably was just bruised up. One thing that I question is how would the passenger side and passenger fare in similar collisions? Seems they only test the driver's front and side in these collisions. How often to we hear that the passenger was killed--right side collision, but the driver was ok? Do they even test the passenger side?

suydam

Saw Alex on Autos review of the 2016 Honda Accord. According to the review the extra safety features now come bundled with Nav and are a $2k add-on to the EX-L. When we shopped in 2013 that's how the Altima packaged its safety features too. Since we don't want Nav that was a major reason we went with the Accord. The Ex-L came in 2 versions, with and without Nav, and all the safety features were standard. I'm not sure we would buy an Accord again if they keep that setup.

backy

Is anyone planning on buying a mid-sized family sedan during the year-end sales--maybe put a big red bow on it and park it in front of your home ala the Lexus ads? My family is set for awhile, having upgraded my daughter's car to a 2008 Mazda6 a year ago and replacing my wife's off-lease Sonata with a 2012 CX-7 in the fall. But if I were shopping now for a mid-sizer, and assuming it's for my own use, I'd focus on the base Accord and Mazda6, each with the 6MT. I don't want or need a lot of doo-dads on my car. I'd probably also take a good look at the base Legacy, Sonata 1.6T, and Passat 1.8T, especially if there's big incentives on them (which is likely at this time of year).

Which car(s) would you like to put a big red bow on, if you could?

Michaell

backy said:

Is anyone planning on buying a mid-sized family sedan during the year-end sales--maybe put a big red bow on it and park it in front of your home ala the Lexus ads? My family is set for awhile, having upgraded my daughter's car to a 2008 Mazda6 a year ago and replacing my wife's off-lease Sonata with a 2012 CX-7 in the fall. But if I were shopping now for a mid-sizer, and assuming it's for my own use, I'd focus on the base Accord and Mazda6, each with the 6MT. I don't want or need a lot of doo-dads on my car. I'd probably also take a good look at the base Legacy, Sonata 1.6T, and Passat 1.8T, especially if there's big incentives on them (which is likely at this time of year).

Which car(s) would you like to put a big red bow on, if you could?

I'm attracted to the Mazda 6 Touring, but there isn't a bad car to be had from the mid-sized offerings. I'm not in the market currently, but will be late next year when my lease is up.

carboy21

backy said:

Is anyone planning on buying a mid-sized family sedan during the year-end sales--maybe put a big red bow on it and park it in front of your home ala the Lexus ads? My family is set for awhile, having upgraded my daughter's car to a 2008 Mazda6 a year ago and replacing my wife's off-lease Sonata with a 2012 CX-7 in the fall. But if I were shopping now for a mid-sizer, and assuming it's for my own use, I'd focus on the base Accord and Mazda6, each with the 6MT. I don't want or need a lot of doo-dads on my car. I'd probably also take a good look at the base Legacy, Sonata 1.6T, and Passat 1.8T, especially if there's big incentives on them (which is likely at this time of year).

Which car(s) would you like to put a big red bow on, if you could?

BMW 535d

suydam

I think I'll go smaller next time. I really love the Mazda3, and I'm very intrigued by the new Chevy Volt coming out soon.

stickguy

this really is a class of no "bad" cars. Very different feeling ones though. So, try them all and see what hits your sweet spot.

Though if you want a stick, I think you narrowed it down to the only 2 choices left. Accord and Mazda is it I think. Subaru, Hyunkai, Toyota, Nissan, Ford and VW all bailed on the sticks.

stickguy

someone mentioned Honda gouging for the safety tech. Looks like Ford is worse. I was poking around on the build a fusion site (checking tranny options!) so I built an SE. not bad price, until I got to BLIS (a must have now for me). Clicked to add that (already pricey at $1,200, but included lane watch). Forced me to add the big tech package (navi, who knows what else). total cost? $5,020! At that point, became more cost effective to build out a titanium and get the bigger morot.

though a nicely loaded Fusion Titanium, factoring in the various discounts, is actually a pretty good value.

m6user

We just bought a new Mazda Touring so I'm probably a little biased. However, if I was looking for a stick I would pick the Accord. The LX is just equipped with some of things I like versus the base Mazda6.

Mr_Shiftright

Okay you mid-sized experts---can you help us to ID a hit and run car?

What Year & Make is This?

benjaminh

Mr_Shiftright said:

Okay you mid-sized experts---can you help us to ID a hit and run car?

What Year & Make is This?

?? Chevy Malibu? VW CC?

Mr_Shiftright

Most people seem to think it's a Passat SE, about 2012-2013. One owner of a CC said it didn't think the roof line was right.

Sandman6472

Passat, that's exactly what I thought.

The Sandman

benjaminh

C & D likes the 2016 Optima 1.6T:

"....Available only in the LX 1.6T, the 1.6-liter is designed to be the most economical offering of the bunch (apart from the Optima hybrid, still based on the previous-gen car), and its EPA ratings of 28/39 mpg city/highway are at the top of the class. Its seven-speed dual-clutch automatic, however, is a welcome break from the rising tide of CVTs in this category. It credibly mimics the smoothness of a torque-converter automatic at low speeds and delivers well-timed shifts under acceleration. That acceleration is pretty spry for a green guy, aided by the fact that the Optima LX 1.6T danced across our scales at 3241 pounds—more than 300 pounds less than the 2.0-liter SX. That figure is about on par with a four-cylinder Honda Accord.

It’s also more than 200 pounds lighter than the Ford Fusion 1.5-liter EcoBoost, which is perhaps the Optima LX 1.6T’s most direct competitor. In a battle between those two eco-misers, the Kia shines. Engine output is pretty much a draw—the Kia’s 1.6-liter makes 3 fewer horsepower but 10 lb-ft more torque than the Ford’s 1.5-liter EcoBoost—but the Optima’s fuel economy is better by 3 mpg in the city and 2 mpg on the highway (and that’s spotting the Fusion its optional auto stop-start system). And when it’s time to put your foot down, the Kia’s 7.3-second zero-to-60 time trounces the Ford’s 8.2-second result...."

msrp $24,815

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-kia-optima-16t-test-review

stickguy

you get the same drivetrain in the Sonata Eco. Which can also be pretty well equipped if you want it to. Also in the new Tuscan. Based on what I have read, if I got another Hyundai I would go for this powertrain. Unless it was a Genesis!

sda

stickguy said:

this really is a class of no "bad" cars. Very different feeling ones though. So, try them all and see what hits your sweet spot.

Though if you want a stick, I think you narrowed it down to the only 2 choices left. Accord and Mazda is it I think. Subaru, Hyunkai, Toyota, Nissan, Ford and VW all bailed on the sticks.

A local dealer has a '16 Accord EX manual and has added a mark up to the effect that it became a $28k car! Yet when the buyer of that car tries to sell it they will low ball the value because no one wants a manual!

Mr_Shiftright

Asking prices are just the dealer exercising his first amendment rights---no reason to suppose someone's going to pay that. Of course, this is a new model and relatively scarce, so all you need is just one person hot to have it.

tonyg2016

The lack of activity on the hyundai board is just another indicator that the 2016 Sonata does not sell without major incentives (and hyundai knows it). Enter the 2016 Sonata Sport Value edition:

http://www.hyundainews.com/us/en/media/pressreleases/44708/2016-hyundai-sonata-sport-offers-new-value-edition-package

This may redefine the best value sonata model at least for cheap a$$es like me; msrp $25310 with floor mats as the only accessory. Take that Honda!

stickguy

basically adds a moonroof and keyless entry/go for $950. a decent deal, and I like that you can get a cheaper car with the moonroof (without having to go all the way to the pano roof). Too bad it is missing the BLIS feature, otherwise would have everything needed!

though the 1.6T/DSG drivetrain would be nice too. Maybe just need to add this value edition to the Eco too!

tonyg2016

sample sticker of a real car with this pkg:
http://toolsw3.prod.cobaltgroup.com/services/windowSticker.do?vin=5NPE34AF0GH361054

stickguy

Lot of car for the money. Too bad has android auto instead of Apple car play though! But my 2015 has neither, but I do have Navi so no big deal.

brian125

Speaking about Hyundai I always felt the company overpriced some of its models knowing the discounts they offer lure more folks into thinking they are getting a super deal. Hyundai offers a lot of car for the money. Sonata and Genesis are very good examples.

andres3

What would you all recommend to someone that likes Toyota's, but isn't thrilled with a recent model Prius they bought. They want to be green and would like to get a hybrid above all other factors, but maybe something nicer and larger than the Prius. Camry Hybrid? Any other recommendations?

suydam

Camry Hybrid seems the way to go. Unless they want something like the new RAV4 hybrid.

andres3

suydam said:

Camry Hybrid seems the way to go. Unless they want something like the new RAV4 hybrid.

Doesn't have to be a Toyota, that is just the brand they have favored in the past, and for good reason; they have been trouble-free.

suydam

If they like them, those will probably please them. The Camry Hybrid has been around a long time and is almost indistinguishable from the regular Camry.

berri

A hybrid player people forget about is Ford. How about a Fusion?

suydam

True. It's a very sharp car.

stickguy

Fusion hybrid or the often forgotten about Accord Hybrid.

Mr_Shiftright

I just finished renting a Fusion Titanium for a week. It is a very sharp car for the money. Haven't driven the hybrid however, but based on my experience, I'd put the Fusion right up near the top of the current selection of mid-size cars available.

akirby

Why is the 2016 Accord Hybrid not out yet? Will there be one?

nyccarguy

akirby said:

Why is the 2016 Accord Hybrid not out yet? Will there be one?

Does anybody care?  I paid $1.96 per gallon for 87 RUG last night.

stickguy

Down to about $1.65 near me. And I would still shop with MPG in mind, especially if they were desperate to give away hybrids!

nyccarguy

By the way, anybody who knows @Mr_Shiftright knows that "I just finished renting a Fusion Titanium for a week. It is a very sharp car for the money." Is a ringing endorsement.  He's an enthusiast through & through.

suydam

I care. I'm sure the price of gas will increase in the future, but it isn't just price. I would like to be a more careful consumer of the planet's resources. I do think these are the vehicles of the future.

andres3

Getting gouged for nearly $3 a gallon for 87 in San Diego, CA.

Michaell

suydam said:

I care. I'm sure the price of gas will increase in the future, but it isn't just price. I would like to be a more careful consumer of the planet's resources. I do think these are the vehicles of the future.

Agreed. My next car may or may not be a hybrid - it depends on the deals available when I'm in the market, but good MPG is pretty high on my list of priorities.