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Comments
I suggested we (Subaru fans) are on a slippery slope if we on the one hand welcome CR's endorsement (of the Forester) but then criticize them for finding fault with the Outback. I think gtdriver and Bob are saying essentially the same thing.
Personally: I don't agree completely with CR's pick or pan; I'd rather get the opinion of an enthusiast's review when it comes to handling and performance; and ultimately, I make up my own mind based on my own driving experience.
Randy
PS We lost our NHL team 5 years ago, so back off with the hockey analogies, eh?
Stick with the numbers in the CR reports.
My 2 cents Californian,
WDB
While I don't always agree with their reviews, I do think they look at SUVs with the right kind of attitude -- most people don't need full-blown truck based SUVs. In that sense I think it makes sense that they rate the Forester highly -- it's the least "truckish" of the miniutes they test.
Ken
I like CR for their reliablity ratings which are based on real world data.
-mike
I'm not positive, but I believe that the Isuzu Trooper (why are we discussing Troopers here in a Subaru forum?) that Consumer Reports Magazine flunked in 1996? didn't quite roll over. Instead it was ranked Not Acceptable because of its pronounced tendency to approach a dangerously close-to-rollover attitude in emergency handling tests. Hey, is anyone surprised that overweight, top heavy trucks have a greater tendency to roll than normal passenger cars?
Frank
p.s. loved the Juice spoof!
Stephen
Dave in Alabama
Gus
Bob
forum....CR should stick to facts and figures and
leave the auto reviewing to some other entity more
capable>>
WHAT!?! You mean to tell me Keystone beer and Lindeman's Bin 45 Chardonnay aren't the two BEST alcoholic bevs in the country?? NO WAY!
There are plenty of periodicals devoted to wine, written by those with passion for the subject, plus retailers like me who have a lot of experience with the stuff and in hooking folks up with what they like. Now along comes CR and proclaims Lindeman's stinkin' Bin whatever 45 or 65, doesn't matter, as the best value white wine in the US of A. Ugh, These sheeple come in now (that's what we call 'em. sheep+people) clutching this article, refusing any other suggestions. "Must have Lindeman's, must have Lindeman's." Well damn, we are talking personal taste here people, and I personally DON'T want something that was o.ked by a massive committee. That's like the Soviet Art Approval board or something. Yech.
And yes, the ratings they did of beer last year offered up Keystone as the best beer for the money.
Apparently Anchor Liberty and Sierra Nevada didn't have anti lock brakes or as much rear legroom as a Camry and were disqualified.
Stephen
My ranking is as follows:
">=" means "better but close";
">" means "better"
">>" means "much much better"
"=" means "too close to tell"
(only driving/handling characteristics are considered; I tried to abstract myself from the looks and interior quality)
mini-SUV:
Forester >= Escape >> RAV4 >= CRV > Grand Vitara
mid-size SUV:
Pathfinder >> Grand Cherokee > 4Runner >= Rodeo > Explorer
large SUV:
Tahoe > Durango > Expedition
Overall champion: Forester
Silver goes to Pathfinder
Bronze goes to Escape (if to forget about its quality)
Near-luxury cars:
Acura TL >= Lexus IS300 >= BMW323 > Infiniti Q30 >> Catera > Lincoln LS >> Chrysler 300M
Mid-level sedans:
Maxima > Accord V6 >= Camry V6 >= Passat >> Intrepid >= Taurus >= Intrigue >= Saturn
Low mid-level sedans:
Altima = Jetta = Galant >> Malibu >= Sonata >> Alero
Economy sedans:
Sentra > Civic >> Elantra = Focus = Protege > Neon > Sephia
Minivans:
Odyssey >= MPV > Sienna >= Grand Caravan > Montana >> Windstar
-Colin
Day one I was hesitant. Having heard all these myths about AWD not being good enough on the sand, a lack of a low range, no ladder frame, etc.
As we pulled in, the Camry in our group got stuck in the sandy driveway. FWD with an open diffy will do that, you know. We managed to get him out with a slight push, fortunately.
Then I said, what the heck. No better place to try. I have AAA anyway, and another Outback nearby (my cousin's) just in case I do anything stoopid.
Pulled off onto the soft sand right around the house, and did notice a lot of play in the steering - loosey goosey in the soft stuff. Decided to wait until the next day, to better evaluate the terrain.
Day two brought a wonderful sunrise over the ocean. Breathtaking views from the balcony. Gotta do this - the Crew is counting on it.
Down to the Forester, this time aired down the tires. First 20psi, which seemed too stiff, then 18psi. Perfect. Nice flex, but not too much. Lose about a 1/2 inch of clearance going from 33 to 18 psi though.
I decided to try driving around the house first. Easier access to help, just in case. The 'roo pulls forward like a champ, makes in around without a hitch. Actually, it's a HOOT to drive in the sand, kicking up sand as you add gas. This helped me build up some confidence.
We walked to the beach first, just to check out the terrain. Boy, LOTS of soft sand. The house sits on the 4th lot from the ocean, though the 1st lot is gone - the ocean has advanced over the years. Still, it's a good 100 yards or so before the sand it packed. Oh, boy.
I decide to get the fellas to come along. 3 men on board just in case. OK, I was chicken, I admit.
My time in dune buggys in Cumbuco, Brazil, really paid off. Trying to remember the technique, drive smooth, keep the momentum, no sudden turns, no braking, etc. Ready to roll.
We drive past the drive way onto the really soft stuff. The tracks left by the Suburbans are about 4" deep or so, really wide. The Forester grabs tenaciously and soldiers on like a champ. It seems to be happy at about 10-15mph, part throttle, 1st gear the entire time. No low range, remember?
Yahoo! We're rolling right through, without a hiccup. The steering feels totally disconnected, and it does have to create it own tracks since the existing ones are too wide, but it plows through.
The soft sand is most challenging. Then comes the packed sand, which is a piece of cake. Closer to the ocean the sand is wet and gets a bit more challenging again, but it's no match for AWD.
Despite the great result, I'm conservative and just park it in front of the house. We unload all the gear - no more hauling beach chairs around! Life is sweet.
Who else is around? Well, we saw plenty of Chevy pickups, big and small, Suburbans, Troopers. One Montero, one XTerra (hey - the first I've ever seen being used the way it was intended). Also saw one Range Rover! Cracked me up! Plus a Samurai, hopped up though, and an old Tracker. One Jeep Wrangler, full of surfers.
The next day, with a bit more confidence under my belt, we hit the beaches again. This time we drove the gang all the way up to Pea Island, about 2 miles north. It's a preserve, so that's as far as you can get. Got some good pics.
What a hoot to drive near the water, though. We head in the other direction, to the Rodanthe Pier, for another good photo op.
From that point on, it was the Subaru Shuttle, taking and returning everyone to/from the beach. Why carry heavy chairs/coolers when the AWD functions so well?
To keep this post from getting excessively long, I'll save the rest for later, but suffice it to say, the Forester makes a great beach buddy. In a week of hitting the beach on a daily basis, it still managed 20.5mpg. Her proud owner has now named her, quite appropriately, Sandy.
The catch? Well, I can see where a low range could help, at least make it a bit easier. 162 lb-ft feels like about 40 lb-ft in deep, soft sand. Still, it managed.
Also, be prepared for a FILTHY interior. I left the windows open the first day (not smart...). People brought in enough sand to fill a sand trap at Pebble Beach.
Oh, and wash the brakes/wheels every time you leave to drive on pavement.
-juice
PS At 18psi, the Forester handles like an XTerra.
..Mike
..Mike
..Mike
I like CR a lot. For most things, they provide enough accurate information to make a decision. For cars, they provide a good starting point for research --the reliability info is very useful since it is based on actual statistical info.
When researching my next gadget, I use:
http://www.consumerreview.com
You get a slew of user reviews which often vary across the spectrum, but there is usually good info to glean from them.
DaveC.
Welcome back. Sounds like you had an awesome time! You probably have several hundred posts to catch up on -- good luck!
A couple things of interest - I installed the 18mm rear sway bar while you were out (check out http://ken.s.homepage.com/swaybar.html). You must do this mod! Also went to Edmund's Live and test drove the Escape. You can read about it in the Events topic.
Ken
mid-SUV:
Pathfinder >> Grand Cherokee > XTerra > 4Runner >= Rodeo > Explorer
Major disappointments: 4Runner and Explorers/Expeditions. I expected much more from 4Runner, but handling was awful. Explorer and Expedition both had SO busy struggling engines that I kept asking the attendants to check if emergency brake is on.
I took Forester for a ride 2 times, and on the second run I gave it a really aggressive treatment on the off-road track, to the point of being reprimanded by an otherwise very friendly attendant. In spite lower stance, Forester did not bottom out anywhere. OTOH, I did scratch the bottom of most "big guys" (a wonderful sound, as long as you know it's not your own car, hee-hee-hee).
Escape was surprisingly good, although I was biased against it to begin with.
Tahoe was unexpectedly smooth, maybe all this weight soaked the bumps?
Grand Cherokee was very good on smaller bumps, but not as nimble on the pavement as Pathfinder. Going over hill, I was not impressed with JGC.
Overall, I'm convinced now that car-based ute is a way to go unless all you do is tow a huge boat.
Grand Vitara? Way too rough, and handling of the off-road track was not impressive.
I wish they had a Legacy H6 Sedan with VDC, or a WRX there for comparison. Will Subaru sponsor some cars next year?
Daniel
ABSOLUTELY HATED Olds Alero!!! Handling was really awful. No feedback from the steering wheel whatsoever, you just keep on rotating it, trying to guess how much is enough, and then watch if your car fits the curve or not ...
From your posts, it sounds like you were on Hatteras Island, on the National Seashore. I've driven on the beach a little down there. Most of my driving on the Outer Banks is further north, from Corolla to the VA state line.
A low range set of gears would certainly have been helpful, as you stated. I know I definitely needed my low range in my Explorer when I tried to scale a dune pathway (very soft sand, and going up hill, with no tire paths to follow) near the VA line. I couldn't do it in 4WD high.
Last time I was there, we had a Range Rover in our group, and it got stuck!
Bob
Chrysler 300M felt like it belongs to a lower class altogether.
Big Three has something to think about.
Tried IS 300 2 times: it's an excellent car, but I would not drool over it.
Acura 2.5 TL seemed just as competent and somehow felt very eager to please (I like this in the car ;-).
Couldn't exactly point out what I didn't like in Infinity Q30. Seemed like a nearly-perfect car, and still, I was not getting exactly what I wanted.
Based on test-drive, Audi A4 is not a near-luxury car, it's a performance sedan of lower class, IMO.
OT: What does everyone think of the new Mini Cooper? Autoweek says it is about a year away, and will clock in at the $18K mark. I have to say it looks kewl, and will have a tape kit available for those who want Union Jacks on their roofs. I think they need a kit that lets U.S. buyers have the Stars and Bars ala Dukes of Hazzard.
NEways, my wife wants one now almost as badly as a Forester. heh, yea I know, same exact class of vehicle.
..Mike
..Mike
Craig
(In his best Robert De Niro voice "You talkin' to ME??)
Yeah, me and half the board, buddy!
No, I haven't been posting on the MPV topic board -- my harping on the lack of power would start to look too transparently like psychological compensation for being a powerless male with a wife and 2 teenage daughters.
And I don't want no steenkin' minivan.
But I sure want to test the H6!
Randy
PS. Good story, Juice.
..Mike
..Mike
The speedo read 54, I even remember setting cruise. So my speedo is off more than I thought!
The beauty of station wagons is this: the cop sees a polite driver with a baby in the back, gives me a warning, and says have a nice day.
Wanna bet if I were in a coupe/sport sedan with no baby that I would have gotten the ticket?
Wagons rule.
-juice
Ross
www.gorally.com
too bad it is kinda pricey.
I really hate to see things like this happen. It give Subaru and dealers a bad name when a problem is not fixed correctly.
Please send me an e-mail with your fax number and I'll be happy to send you a copy.
Darlene
Patti - are you out there? I hope you can help. Cherry Hill is only about a 45 minute drive from me and I can camp out on their lawn if need be.
Thanks again,
Ed
Have a good one,
Chris
Manuals? YES! Please! I know most people buy autos, but very few makers sell manuals, and ones that do make very few, so you'll have a virtual monopoly soon! A 6 speed in an H6 2003 Forester may make us a 2-Forester-owning family!
Sport shift is the next best, I guess. Just give us at least 5 ratios and buttons on the steering wheel. I still prefer true manuals, though.
Patti saves the day again...what else is new?
Kate: I'm telling you, you should go into comedy! I love your Escape/Aztec humor.
Now I see why Darlene said NOT to buy an Escape. Her dealership also sells Fords and she works with warranties/recalls. Steering wheels and now wheels falling off, with possible tread shedding up ahead? I guess Forester doesn't really have to compete with Ford - they keep getting "stop sell" orders!
YMMV, but for the record I do best shifting at 3000rpm with my manual. Mine does better at 65 than it does at 75mph, too. I got 26.4 going down to the OBX, but only 25.2 coming back since traffice was moving much faster. Both are with a heavy load, roof carrier, and two bikes on the hitch rack.
Drew's post about the bumpers reminded me - the Forester suffered the least damage in its class. Check out the results.
-juice
Loosh: funny wine story. That T-shirt serves the opposite function it's supposed to, i.e. it makes people look there instead of anywhere else!
Chris: congrats on the new OB. Share photos?
Jukes was hilarious, I'll admit. Do I really sounds like that? %*}
$1.40 at priceline, Mike? Gotta check it out. I also hit that Costco and yes it was $1.479. Premium was $1.659, see what I mean, Drew?
Loved those SUV comics. Uh, the Forester is a wagon, right?
I dunno about Ward's. If GM's 3.5l V6 is one of the 10 best in the world, why are they buying V6 engines from Honda for Saturn?
In defense of CR, you have to take into account they categorize vehicles and have certain expectations for that class. The Outback is up against some fine wagons, and it's rated Very Good, hardly something to be ashamed of. AWD simply doesn't matter to them in that category (it should).
The Forester goes up against trucks and pseudo-pickups, and stomps them. AWD is required. No surprises.
Bob: check out the Window Tinting topic under Accessories. There's tons of good tips.
Kate: how did you like the event overall? Great, no? I'm jealous that you got so much time there.
-juice
Dave
Ken - 18mm sounds sweet. Let's discuss under Mods.
Kate: I also felt the 4Runner was too heavy to even approach "handling". Too much inertia.
The BMW 323 needs a manual. The auto was a dog next to the IS.
Mini Cooper? Nah, I'd take a Miata instead.
Edmunds Live needs more Soobs. The Forester was the only vehicle we managed to kick the tail out a bit. Hutch and I were actually looking for cars that would oversteer, so we stuck to RWD only, and no luck.
Bob: yep, Hatteras. I didn't see any dunes you could drive on. I did see lots of cars on the beach north of Pea Island, across the bridge.
Ed: Patti's e-mail is pmickel@subaru.com.
Rally school sounds TOO fun. No way the boss (wife) would allow that. Maybe if it was called "Defensive Driving School"...
-juice
If you happened to pick up one of those ADC Maps of the Outer Banks while you were there, -- those communittees are indicated on it. There are no paved roads there, just soft sand paths on which to drive. It's very easy to get stuck back there, if you're not careful.
Bob
My main gripe was that choices of cars were limited. No Soobs except Forester, no MB, no RX300... and tracks are way too short, to get a more or less decent test-drive. Still, a lot of fun. Highly recommend it to anyone, from car enthusiasts who love everything on 4 wheels, to family folks who are torn between Sienna vs Odyssey choice in minivans.
OK, by popular demand, plenty of photos of Sandy on the OBX start here.
Cool, eh? There are 17 new pages, most of them OBX related. Keep clicking on "Next" at the bottom of each screen.
Modem users: sorry, MS Publisher makes them GIFs and they're kind of big, but I just counldn't shrink them and ruin them.
-juice
Thanks very much,
Ed