Subaru Crew - Meet The Members

c_hunter

I won't get into the Passat vs. Outback debate, since they are both great cars with different plusses and minuses. But, I have to second the vote that true AWD is far superior to FWD off the line, all else being equal (HP, weight, etc).

Juice, another ding against the Eclipse/Talon AWD in the snow was the tires -- Goodyear Eagles if I remember correctly. The treads pack up instantly. A friend of mine switched his tires to Blizzaks in the winter, and the car was nearly unstoppable in the snow. Never mind ground clearance -- that car could tunnel!

Craig

kens

Wow, so much debate on the OB vs. Passat. While the two are different "offerings" they clearly do attract a common customer base. Case study, my younger brother.

He currently owns a fully loaded Passat GLS V6. Loves it BUT he also recently got a dog and needs a wagon. He also wants AWD (with a little coaching from me). He naturally gave the Passat 4Mo Wagon a hard look but they sell at over MSRP here in the Bay Area. The 4Mo is also quite slow (slo mo?). He then cross shopped the OB and liked it a lot except for the power. He orginally wanted to go with the LL Bean since all he really wanted was the H6 but was turned off by all the badging. Now he's waiting for a VDC wagon in late October/early November.

I'm hoping he goes with the VDC.

Ken

barresa11

The price at which a 4-motion Pasat wagon goes for is at full retail as well in the Puget Sound region. This is one of the reasons I feel that the OB w/or w/o H6 is a better value. Passats are nice and I love the looks but that alone would not sway me. After owing my OB, it would take a lot more than when I cross-shopped the two to move me.

Stephen

aling

This is off-topic, but what do you think of the more Audi A6-ish look that the '01.5 Passat has? Do you still like it as much as before?

Drew/aling
Townhall Community Leader/Vans Conference

ateixeira

Colin: on the AWD/FWD debate, it depends. Traction can be good or bad.

With lots of power, AWD is best, then RWD, FWD last, because of the weight shift.

With less power, though, FWD's poor traction can be an advantage - the wheels spinning allow an engine to get into its sweet spot much earlier than it would otherwise.

My Escort was a DOG unless you dropped the cluth at above 4000rpm. Slow under 4000rpm, fast above it. The Soob is much more relaxed and thankfully doesn't require such abuse.

So on paper, 0-60 tests are better than 5-60 tests, sometimes by a wide margin. But who drives like this?

In the real world, 5-60 matters much more, as do rolling acceleration numbers (for passing).

The H6 peaks at 4400rpm, but Subaru has made impressive claims on its low end torque. Don't buy the hype, though - VW claims the 1.8T peaks at 1750rpm and that's baloney. It comes alive at 3500-4000rpm, and lags below 3 grand. We'll have to see with the VDC.

slo-mo - LOL!

4Mos were slightly less than MSRP at Fitzgerald, but they're out of stock anyway.

I like the new look, BTW. Audi is crazy to let VW copy them so closely.

-juice

WMarton

Echoing Ken's observation that Passat and Outback owners have a lot in common--check out a current discussion underway at vw vortex (www.vwvortex.com ...look under forums and Passat (B5)).

Bill

ateixeira

Bill: I thought you did have a Passat. Oh well...

I don't think 4Mo comes in a 5 speed, does it? Both Subaru and VW should offer an AWD V6/5speed.

Hmm, if you mountain bike, check out the flimsy rack on the Passat's roof. The Soobs is more than twice as sturdy. Also keep in mind the Passat isn't rated to tow at all.

Overall I think the Passat has the upscale near-luxury feel while the Outback offers more substance and utility.

I remember VW owners from way back in the rec.autos days, and they're die-hard cult fans just like many Soob fans, indeed.

-juice

miksmi

Great thread, Bill; thanks. As Lucien has thrown down the URL gauntlet at the bottom of this thread , I present for your enjoyment the thread Bill mentioned: Outback better then Passat 4motion? Yes.. under certain conditions. The remarks and decorum are amazingly familiar; I thought I on Edmunds for a moment.

..Mike

PS - Taco Bell $2 bill story

ateixeira

Hmm, it's their board so let them have their fun, but I can point out several blatant errors.

Ground clearance is not quite 8", and it's not FWD until it slips as someone said. A newer Outback won't get stuck in sand as easily as the original '95, which was an inch and a half lower on inch narrower tires.

Also, why is the H6 too expensive when it's several grand less than the 4Mo in the LL Bean?

The Passat is relatively softly sprung and hardly a "performance" car they purport it to be. The GT is actually sportier. Perhaps they mod their suspensions like crazy, but then so can we!

I also disagree with the Outback being "not nearly as luxurious or refined" as the Passat. The old one, maybe. The new Outback actually has a smoother ride, I'd say, and the extra content makes the Passat look stripped.

What else? Outback Limiteds sell like mad, unlike they stated. They certainly do not have bad trade-in values. The GT's final drive ratio is the same as the Outback's; it's the tires that are of a different diameter. Those gold wheels aren't on all models of the WRX.

I did find it very interesting that noone even tries to dispute the fact that VW's are not as reliable as Soobs. It's mentioned a few times.

Someone even mentions buyer's remorse. It would be cruel to show him my OBX photos, so I won't.

Still, they correct most of their own errors, and seem to give a generally fair assessment of Subies.

-juice

barresa11

I actually like the subtle styling changes on the 2001.5 Passat. I was a bit concerned (nervous?)that VW might overreact in the restyling dept. I mean, I wasn't worried that it would be a Pontiac Aztek or anything....(sorry, couldn't resist.

Stephen

texsubaru

Well, I know I'm probably considered one of this board's major cheapskates, so keep that bias in mind as you read this, but I suspect Car & Driver review's discomfort with the MSRP is probably pretty darn reflective of what you'll see in the general U.S. car-buying public. I truly think the average car shopper doesn't think of Subaru — any Subaru — as an over-$30,000 automobile.
Maybe Subaru can indeed successfully go upscale, but I don't think it'll be a quick and easy marketing task.

bogusbob

Not sure if there was a Slo-mo V, but if my memory is not to fuzzy, they all had a tendency to flip over.........

thecat

I’m confused. I read, with some amazement, posts on that site about how the OB is a sacrificial lamb compared to the VW. Oh yeah, it’s ok if my $23k car gets banged up but my $26k car is another story. These are people who have (real or perceived) bought into the “image” thing. Give me a break.

Loosh … howz your Snorkus?

- hutch

tincup47

Who thought 5 years ago that VW was a "prestige" brand? Over $30,000 for a Passat is just as much of a reach for me as $30,000 for a Subaru is. I do like both vehicles and I think both are earning the move upmarket.

lucien2

just fine, thanks. got to persecute that hum, but kens thinks it is my air box seal. I get on it sometime in the next week.

PRICING:

glad y'all have $30k to toss around, but does anyone know yet what pricing on the new Impreza will be like? no, not the turbo; I'm turbo-ed out, frankly. I mean a normal "L" with the 2.5 Has anyone heard if the release date has been firmed up?

mr_mark

I have caught a lot of flack from my buddies since purchasing my 2001 Forester S (auto trans). I formerly owned a 1995 Ford F-150 pickup, and they all drive trucks. I heard a lot of comments like "what is that little thing your driving?", etc. Well, I was vindicated on Saturday thanks to the big hill.

My buddies and I went to the club Saturday (our dirt bike club) and I drove the Subaru for the first time. I was pulling a small utility trailer with my dirt bike on board. The entrance road to the club is a VERY steep gravel hill with big rain ruts in it. We normally have trouble getting up the hill with 2wd pickup trucks when pulling a trailer. It would typically involve a lot of clutch work and wheel spin.

I turned into the club and pointed my trusty Subaru up the hill. I gave it a little gas and began to ease on up while maneuvering around the big ruts. It was amazing just how easy the little Subie walked up the hill. I didn't detect ANY wheel spin. I could not explicitly feel the AWD doing anything special, but obviously it must have been working. My buddies were behind me in a pickup doing their usual rev-clutch-spin thingy while watching in amazement as I casually drove up the hill.

After we got to the top, they suddenly had a new found interest in my little Forester. As they walked around it looking it over they commented. "Wow, that thing walked right up that hill". "What kind of gas mileage did you say that thing gets?". "I bet it's killer in the snow".

I never bought the Subaru to impress anybody. I knew when I bought it that my somewhat redneck buds would give me a hard time. I didn't care, it's what I wanted, it suited my needs the best. After Saturday, I feel vindicated in my choice.

Mark

lucien2

yea, buddy! I love stories like that....

locke2c

that's a great story, mark! out of curiosity, what kind of dirtbike?

-Colin

rsholland

For those interested in driving on North Carolina's Outer Banks, the November 2000 issue of FOUR WHEELER is a MUST READ! In it there's a great article on driving on the Outer Banks. Excellent information, resources, and photos.

In one of my earlier posts I mentioned a 4WD-accessible-only community near the VA line. I couldn't remember the name. It's called Carova Beach, and there's an interesting side bar regarding Carova Beach in this article. There are some 250 full-time (year-round) residents there. They have a post office and a fire department. There are no paved roads (but there are street signs!), so the only way in, is by boat or 4WD. Also... many houses are for rent! So, for your next beach vacation -- look up four-wheel-drive-rental properties.

Also, on the southern end of the Outer Banks, there's the Core Banks, which is only accessible by ferry, and it's very expensive to get to. It costs $100 round trip just to ferry your 4WD over there. It is pure beach wilderness for miles. If you really want to get away from civilization, this is the place.

Bob

thecat

I have a friend (at least I think that’s what he is) who told me I bought a lesbian mobile when I got my Forester. Yeah, but who pulled his Jeep G.C. out of the sand when he got stuck at the beach. Mr. Lesbian .. that’s who

- hutch

kate5000

Forester was the best on the hill and off-road track, of all the SUVs I've tested at EdmundsLive...

kate5000

My husband came back from a business trip to Toronto, clutching the newspaper that had a review of new Outback H6. I also found it on the web:

Outback H6 3.0 Canadian Review

They also grumbled about the price, but not that much (probably in CDN $$ 30K mental barrier was passed long time ago).

From the photos, knobs on McIntosh stereo look really cheesy to me, sort of pseudo-retro and out of place in the otherwise modern interior. I love restored classic but don't care for new pseudo one, like new Beetle or PT Cruiser. Gimme new sleek modern design!

grugru

Somehow, Mr. Lesbian doesn't seem to work, grammatically....but guys like your buddy can't really have it both ways, can they? I mean, following all the stereotypes, wouldn't he _want_ to have a car that attracted all those hot, nekkid lesbians (yes, I can hear the howls of protest, followed by rotten vegetables and opprobrium thrown from the crowd) - as we assume all RBAMs want?

Next time you pull his overpriced, low-reliability, no-safety-having hunk of ladder frame out of the sand, maybe you should have a couple of girlfriends with you in the car...

jg

kens

Mark -- way to go! Love stories like that.

Kate -- I agree, the Forester was the best all-around performer in the SUV category. BTW, thanks for the link to the H6 review. I've promptly forwarded it to my brother for him to read.

Ken

c_hunter

Thanks for the link, Kate!

Interesting and positive review, however, they screwed up explaining how the standard auto trans AWD system in the OB works. Sort of makes me question the rest of their technical understanding of AWD. I mean, really, the correct info is publically available on Subaru's website!

From the review:
The four cylinder models and the base six still use the same system as last year, one that splits the power 70/30 in favour of the front wheels. If any slippage occurs, the system locks the front and rear axles together in an even 50/50 split.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the system is 90/10 under normal "cruising" conditions, and can divert torque front/rear as needed, not just as a 50/50 split, and certainly not locked. And it doesn't only divert torque when slippage occurs, it also distributes torque to aid acceleration and braking (hence the "active AWD" moniker). The "basic" AWD systems on the auto trans models is a lot more sophisitcated than they allude to. VDC really just adds side to side torque transfer and yaw control.

Craig

rsholland

The VDC does differ from the normal automatic's 90/10 front/rear power split. The VDC, under normal conditions has a slightly rear-biased power split. It's something like 40/60, or near that. The reason being, in performance driving, a rear-biased power split is preferred.

Bob

kens

Good catch Craig. Yep, you're right, the AT AWD system is not what they describe it to be.

My understanding is that in 1st, 2nd and Reverse, the clutch pack splits torque 50/50. In 3rd and 4th, it goes to 90/10. And, the system also diverts power when it detects slippage.

The benefit of this system is that under acceleration and braking (where the 4EAT downshifts)you get 50/50. A bit of marketing, but effective, nonetheless.

However, I think VDC is A LOT more sophisticated than what we get now. It enables independent control over each wheel. Not only can it brake each wheel (a la Mercedes ESP), it can also divert torque to any wheel. I've seen videos of it and it is quite impressive.

Ken

lark6

Hi Patti,

If you're out there I've been trying to get in touch with you about followup on the repairs to my Forester. I left 2 voice mails to keep you up to date - just waiting to hear from your end as to whether the dealership is aware of what you plan on doing. I don't want to get there on Monday and tell them that SoA has all these things planned for me and then have them not be aware of those plans.

You have my phone numbers and e-mail address. Please call me as soon as you can so that we can proceed.

Thanks,
Ed

PS: Gang - this is going very well so far - pleasantly surprised. Will fill all in once all resolved.

miksmi

Mark, The Little Forester That Could <1860</A>> -- great story!

grugru, opprobrium <1867</A>> -- Dr. Thesaurus approves!

Kate, thanks for the link!

..Mike

subaru_team

Good News: I've got my home PC back and it's up and running, so I'll have more time to post with you all.

Bad News: I have the H-6 LL Bean car for the weekend to test out. So, I won't have a lot of PC time! Anything you want me to check out on the car? Any specific impressions? Just ask and I'll try to post later on!

First impression, this baby is smoooottttthhhh!! Quick acceleration that transitions gears (auto) without notice. Auto climate control is very nice. Got watch the speed limits though. It really seems to want to go!

Be back later! Time to take my daughter and her friend shopping in the new ride!

subaru_team

Susan, the Senior Rep. for your area was trying to get in contact with you. I was tied up in meetings for two days straight.

You're all set for Monday. The dealer will have a rental ready and we'll be involved in the repairs. The field rep. is also aware of your situation along with our tech. group, so everything should be resolved perfectly. I'll call you on Monday (I don't have your number at home) after I speak with the dealer.

Hang in there!

yellowbikedon

Patti,

I've ordered the "new" white L.L. Bean model. If this is what you're driving, can you describe the color? I'm told it's similar to what Audi uses.

What are your comments on the L.L. Bean logos? Are they "tastefully" used and do they blend with the two tone leather seats?

Thanks, in advance, for your comments!

Don

rsholland

I think I know the answer to this one, but I'll ask anyway... Did they raise the towing capacity with the H-6? From what I've heard early on, they didn't. Maybe that's changed? I sure hope so.

Also, I'm assuming it still has a temp spare tire? Again, I hope not.

Bob

subaru_team

I'm driving a black one. The color is very rich and deep. I like the logo's on the seat and on the exterior. They are very tasteful and subtle, but they look good. The two tone seats look nice overall. I wasn't sure if I was going to like them, but, they look surprisingly nice. I'll check on the spare when I run out next.

Since all of the tech. data is not being published yet, I'll check on Monday about the towing capacity. Going by the feel of the car, it seems like it could handle more (it feels heavier and has quick acceleration), but, considering that we always lean on the conservative side, I'm not sure what they are going to say.

I had a 2K OB for a test vehicle in the fall and went into my current GT Limited over the summer. It is hard to compare, because the GT has a different type of ride, but this OB seems to be the nicest Sube I've driven, yet. Handling is a dream. It's raining a bit here today, so I took the girls off road a little and they were really impressed at how easy the ride felt. It was smooth, easy to steer and powerful. Now, I have to drive a regular OB again so I can really discern the differences. I'll be back later!

dsackman

with envy, Patti.

Any news on the possibility of an Outback Sedan VDC. If the vehicle will be produced and when it may be released.
My check is made out and ready to exchange for the car.
Of course only if it has a full-size spare. Otherwise not interested.

Daniel
'01 Forester, S+, Auto, Silver

locke2c

You would seriously not purchase the car if it had a spare that wasn't quite full size? Since all Subarus are AWD, our spares are stock rolling diameter or very close to it. If the spare is narrower than stock to allow for more trunk volume, that's okay by me.

-Colin

dsackman

Yep Colin. You are right, I will not buy a car with a "space-saver" spare. What do I do with flat tire after I changed it, if the trunk is full, and I am 100 miles away from civilization?
My friend has a Z3 and he had a flat. He had his girl friend, now ex-girl friend with him. The only place he could put the flat tire was on her lap. She was obviously not amused.
If anybody has a reasonable answer on what to do with the flat tire after it was changed with the space saver, I may re-consider.
Any suggestions out there?

Daniel
'01 Forester, S+, Auto, Silver

subaru_team

I just went out to check and - No Spare?? Since this is a "pre-production" vehicle that is for testing, I guess it wasn't put in there. It's hard to tell by the space that is allocated. I'll ask about that and the VDC on Monday.

Shall I start my Monday post with "Drum Roll Please?"

mikef11

Dan,

Not buying a car because of the spare seems a bit extreme to me too. I have had 3 flats in the last 14 years, and all were in the city. In other words, not a big concern of mine. I thought the full size tire would fit in the spare tire well, albeit with the cover raised an inch or two. I don't think that would then be a problem unless your trunk is pressed full ( and after you take everything out to get to the spare, good luck trying to get it all to fit again :-).

One option that may work is a can of emergency tire inflator that contains a foam to seal the hole. That gives you a minimum air pressure and can get you to the next gas station, or let you fill up the tire with an air pump.

Final thought, with the AWD, isn't it possible to have more problems if you put a new full size spare on the car if the other three tires are significantly worn?


Patti, SOA is sure showing confidence by not putting a spare on board. Keeping your cel phone handy? :-)

MikeF

miksmi

I gave my 3 year old two pennies to throw into a water fountain. I asked him to make a wish before tossing. "Do you have a wish?" "Yes, Daddy." "Ok, don't tell me, and throw the penny." "I want a Subaru." (he doesn't follow directions well) "Ok, throw the penny. Here's another; make a wish but this time, don't tell me." "I want a Subaru Forester." juice and Hutch brainwashed him at the Subaru gathering at Rocks State Park, MD. Or, he may not have remembered our heart-to-heart on the Legacy B4 RSK.

..Mike . 00 GT wagon

nvy

I'm rolling! LOL! Hey,how can you expect us
to just let a good line of posts go!

I don't ask for much, but first impression, did
you think this car was exceedingly more powerful
or somewhat more powerful than the OY2K OB 5 speed. Simply put, if I see one on the highway,
will it leave me in the dust? I don't what to
be mess-in around w/ one if that's the case.

VDC issues! Tell us what's the car do-in? Are
Firestone Tires still on these cars. Not that
it matters to me, but I'm always explaining
to others who have asked "were those recalled".
Giving a simple answer of "NO" gets me only
another question,"why".

Hey, I thought we would have ran you off by
now. Hanging in there, are you not?
I'm impressed?

..Miksmi- Sounds like you've got that Tarzan vs Superman talk coming up. Hope the best for you.

jwilson1

comes with the Forester, right? So, problem solved?

Just a note to say thanks to all of you. I've lurked (frequently) and posted (rarely) over the past couple of months as it became obvious I was going to need a new ride for my wife whose job is in the process of moving to some of NEs most lovely (but not in February) country.

She drove the Forester and, in turn, the CR-V, the Rav-4, and -- recently -- the Escape and Tribute. She liked the last two but couldn't stand the column shift ("I'm not that old") and the recalls. The Forester, otoh, drove with power and comfort. She began by looking at a 'L' Forester. We tried used -- she looked at a '98. She drove a '99. The discount for the accumulated mileage came to less than $.10/mile -- not enough to make it interesting.

Two weeks ago I priced a 'S' in blue ridge pearl w/ dust deflector, auto-dim mirror, exhaust tip, cargo cover, cargo net, and a nifty security upgrade that includes a remote starter. We got a very aggressive price, and a pleasant presentation, from Tri-State Subaru. She took delivery last Thursday and a 250 mile ride today.

She hasn't let me drive yet. It's the first time she's had a car that isn't full of compromises.

Thanks a lot for all of the helpful information, and your patience in answering questions.

One more: if any of you change your own oil -- is there any shortcut you know of in dealing with the filter (positioned behind the bottom shield)?

Take care.
Joe W.

royallen

daniel: You could secure the flat on the trunk if you had a piece of 3/8" campers pad cut to the size of the tire (to protect the paint) and 4 tie down hooks -like those used on bike carriers and soft roof bags -and some 5-50 chord. It may not be quick and easy, but it's as convenient as using the soft bag carriers on rental sedans which I've done a couple of times. Roy

royallen

jwilson1- you can see instructions and pics at Juice's website: www.thejuiceman.homepage.com/directory.html
look for oil change on the directory.

thecat

Mike - I seem to remember commenting on how smart your kids are .. the final test results are in and the 3 yr old wins !! Yeah Baby !!!!

- hutch

dsackman

Thanks for the suggestions on the full size spare.

Joe W:- I have a Forester. I bought it to see me over until the H6 is available in the Outback Sedan. My intention is to dump it for the H6.

Mike F:- I carry emergency tire inflator cans in the car and I have used it with mixed results. There is also a "green slime" product that is poured into the tires and is supposed to close the leakage when it occurs. Have you tried that? The problem with the spare well is that the circumference of the full-size tire/wheel combination is larger than the space available in the trunk.

Roy:- Hee, hee. Quite funny! No, I do not think tying the tire to the trunk lid is a solution. I do however think the little silver cargo carriers available on the Z3 and Miata trunk lids are quite cute.

How much more space and weight/mass does a full size spare take from the trunk of a car? Will a full spare really contribute a lot to the immediate and long term cost of the vehicle? Maybe we do not need a spare at all? That is possibly what Subaru is suggesting with Patti?

Any more suggestions? What do I do with the flat tire after I changed the spare? Do I place the spare on the laps of my passengers?

Daniel
'01 Forester, S+, Auto, Silver

amishra

As I haul plenty of tires around (I have 3 sets of rims for my MX-6) in the Outback, I have to agree with the posts ... spares take up alot of space. And because of their weight, they move around very easily upon acceleration and decellaration.

How many trunks are truly completely empty? Murphy's Law saws if you've gotten a flat, you're likely in the middle of nowhere with a full trunk.

To be honest, I'm disappointed with the H6 because they basically only addressed one of the issues with the Outback, and nothing else.

armac13

I think that you will find that when the full sized tire is flat, it is small enough to fully fit into the well. This issue was discussed on another board a few months ago. Perhaps when Patti gets a spare she can let the air out and try it since she doesn't use one anyway. :-)

Ross

rsholland

All new VWs come with full-size
spare tires standard. So should Subaru.

Australian Outbacks, which have a smaller
215/60x16 tire, also have a full-size spare
standard. Graham & Aussieroo, do you know if all
other Australian Subarus come with full-size
spares?

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that
other-market Subarus also come with full-size
spares standard. Especially those countries with
lousy roads.

Bob

abhidharma

What are the other main issues (other than power) that ought to have been addressed in the new Outback?

Randy

PS Have your Subaru problems been fixed to your complete satisfaction?