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Comments
Thanks for sharing the photos. Looks like fun. Maybe 2 weeks would be in order next time huh?
Got a good chuckle from the pic of all your stuff. I know what it's like, Lynn packs 3 bags to go somewhere for the weekend.
I guess it's time to confess to the rest of the world ... I'm Jukes. Glad everybody enjoyed the post.
- hutch
I'd like to try some hand gliding, and some surf fishing. Imagine a Forester with one of those rod holders up front - that'd be hilarious!
BTW, OBX are beautiful. The water is a good 10 degrees warmer than our beaches in MD. Weather was great, and Rodanthe is relatively unspoiled and not very polluted. Go if you get the chance, they're the best beaches on the East Coast that I've seen.
-juice
Hutch - I thought everyone knew by now. They could tell you just had to get me back for "telling" on you after Edmunds Live.
Yes, 2 weeks would be sweet. We got nice weather, no rain, so I can't complain. The lighthouses are beautiful.
Just 3 bags for Lynn? That's it? I feel like the Griswalds when I pack for a road trip...
-juice
Don
Drew/aling
Community leader/Vans Conference
Cheers
Graham
OBX is an abbreviation for Outer Banks. It is an area on the east coast of the country about half way between New York and Florida.
Congrats on the Olympics .. by all reports Australia is doing a wonderful job as host. Big "at a boy" for the Thorpeodo
- hutch
Bob
Cheers
Graham
month.!!!!!!
That's not a beach!!!!
Speaking of Kill Devil Hills, there's the largest sand dune on the east coast, called Jockey's Ridge. Folks hang glide off it. The view is fantastic. You can see for miles in all directions. Legend has it that it got its name from pirates who used to put a latern on
horses to lure ships towards them at night. The ships would would then wreck on the trecherous coastline, and the pirates would then steal the goods off the wrecked ships.
Further south, there's Ocrakoke Island, which is where Black Beard the pirate used as a hideout.
All in all, there's probably a good 100 miles or more of beach to explore, and enjoy.
Bob
-Colin
..Mike
..Mike
Drew/aling
Townhall Community leader/Vans Conference
-mike
Sorry 'bout the quality of some shots. The camera takes 640x480 JPEG, and then MS Publisher converts them to GIF format (why oh why?). They look like that even before I put them up on homepage.com.
It's Bill Gates' fault! Maybe I should follow the Subaru demographic and switch to Mac!
Drew: was that a promotion? Community leader for vans? Congrats.
aussieroo: what did you mean by it's not a beach? You mean the fact that we cover the sand with blankets, towels, umbrellas, Foresters, toys, strollers, etc?
Yes, the shipwrecks are many. They call it the graveyard of the Atlantic.
I was disappointed in the Weeping Radish beer, though. Not that it wasn't good, which it was, but because it's brewed and bottled in BALTIMORE MARYLAND!
So we drove 7 hours south to drink a locally brewed beer!
-juice
PS Brazilians, and some Europeans, dispute the Wright Brothers claim, since Albert Santos Dumont (Brazilian born) flew in Paris a bit before the brothers did. The Americans saw the design and claimed it could not fly, so they built a replica in Cumbuco, Brazil (our dunes), and sure enough it flew. But that's a debate for another topic!
..Mike
Nice pictures! Looks like you and the family had a great time. "Sandy" looked like a natural in its environment.
Ken
Part of the problem is that the editors often don't even own cars. Also, since people often pay MSRP for entry-luxury cars, they assume all Subaru customers will to, but we know that's bogus.
I hope next time they review the LL Bean model, or at least compared the VDC's pricing with vehicles that have stability control, moonroof, leather, side air bags, etc.
-juice
Yeah, my bro read the C&D article and was kind of bummed. I was hoping there would be some better reviews out there to keep his hopes up. I know I want the car -- wait, it's him who's buying, isn't it? What are brothers for?
Ken
The newer ones, of course. They aren't mechanics!
-juice
Craig
Craig: a friend of mine who is a true audiophile said even a used, 20 year old McIntosh amplifier can demand several grand. They're that good.
-juice
I despise tubes. Having grown up on transistor amplifiers, what tube fans say is a "warm" sound I call distortion.
However I could see a full load of McIntosh carfi going for $4000 easily. I had somewhere north of $2500 (no Mc gear though) in my last car, most of it is sitting in my closet collecting dust now.
-Colin
I guessed right about the power loss with 87 octane - I had said about 5hp.
The review sounds pretty good, with adjectives like upscale, quiet, and refined.
Let's see, 100kph is just over 62mph, so that would be low 9's in the 0-60.
-juice
My trooper does 0-60 in 9s flat, and weight 4500lbs with only 215hp...
I would hope the VDC H6 does it significantly faster than my Porker of an SUV...
-mike
-juice
Thanks for the Link. Recently found another
site @ WWW.GURUNET.COM. Maybe you have seen it
already. Not that you need it or anything. Just
returning the favor and thought you would like it.
Later
What is Subaru's estimate of the 0-60 time for the VDC? Mid nine for a six (C&D)is pretty weak...makes my potential, "wheezy" Passat look fast! In fact if you look at the HP, torque, and weight figures for the two cars, I would expect accleration rankings to be as follows:
Passat GLX (V6 5sp) > Subaru VDC (H6 Auto)>= Passat 4Mo (V6 Auto) >= Passat GLS (4 cyl. turbo 5sp) > Outback Limited (H4 5sp)
where > indicates "noticeably faster" and >= is "faster, but not dramatic."
WRT price, if people continue to suffer sticker shock, that should tell Subaru something, namely, there is an impression that you aren't getting a whole lot more for your money beyond the regular Outback/Outback Ltd. After all, you are paying close to $6,000 for basically three things: (1) an extra two cylinders, (2)traction control, and (3)a high-end stereo system (produced by McIntosh, which I heard was owned by Clarion [feel free to correct me if wrong]). Not a particularly good deal if there isn't a big increase in engine performance or handling.
Compare this to folks impressions of the Passat..."I'm getting a car built on the same platform as an Audi A4/A6 with many of the same features for $5,000 to $10,000 less. What a great deal!" Whether it's true or not is irrelevant; it's clearly what people perceive and hence they are willing to (eagerly) pay up.
I await your parry...
Bill
BUT, not as high as the Forester owner from the Yahoo Forester Club, which was also at Stockton, BTW. Start here:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/subaruforester
Then go to Photos, though you may have to register. Open the "Stockton" album, then look at the photos.
That Land Cruiser gets barely half as high as the Forester, but see for yourself. I particularly love the "Thank you for flying Forester Air" comment.
You aussies really know how to have fun!
The dunes look beautiful. Reminds me of Cumbuco in Brazil. Didn't get to see the Dunes on the OBX, maybe next year.
Loved that license plate imprint, too!
-juice
Subaru claims 8.5s, but numbers will vary a lot as they always do. I've seen only the 9.7 to 100kph, and guesstimates. I've also seen mid 9's for the 4Mo, though.
Even then, the Passat isn't lifted up like the Outback, though, so a GT is really a closer match. The Legacy GT already almost matches the 4Mo, even with the 4 banger. Problem is, noone tests it because the Outback gets all the media attention. Autoweek got their 5 speed to reach 60 in 8.7s, though it was a 5 speed. Still, that's quicker than 4Mo/auto times.
What really distinguishes the VDC is the stability control, which usually only BMW, Cadillac, and Mercedes offer. You also get a RWD bias, climate control, and real wood trim, so the $6 grand buys you more than you mentioned.
In fact, I'd argue that the LL Bean more closely matches the 4Mo in terms of features, and it's priced lower. Why does everyone overlook the LL Bean model?
As for the Passat being a poor man's strech A4, I fully agree. It is a great value, no doubt. The Passat is still a great vehicle with many virtues, so it's easy to justify your purchase. Solid structure, nice styling, and Audi heritage.
It's not perfect, though. Reliability still doesn't match Subaru, particularly the V6 models, and 4Motion could make that worse. The leather seats I sat in were rock hard, though the cloth seats I've tried were fine. Finally, the interior is a bit cold and feels stripped compared to the VDC.
Add a bit more quality control, softer leather, a bit more torque, sportier tuning, and something to warm up the interior, and it's a near-luxury giant killer.
IMHO, if the GT Limited gets the H6, VW is in trouble, because it'll have all those things.
-juice
First and foremost there is no $6,000 difference. The Outback Wagon Limited with automatic transmission retails for $27,390 versus the H6 VDC's 31,500. Seems like $4,000 to me, and as noted earlier (and often) VERY few of us Subaru owners paid retail. Nevermind the $29,500 LL Bean.
Second, the VDC's system can hardly be characterized as mundane traction control. Display all posts in the Future Models topic, then search in your browser (Ctrl-F) for VDC. If you are unaware of its true capabilities you will learn.
Third, no one believes the 9.5 0-60 so we'll patiently wait for instrumented testing. The vehicles are some 200lb heavier than the H4 models, reaching 3700lb. (oink, oink)
-Colin
To make a long story short, our beloved Patti here got involved and I am taking my Legacy in next week for the repair, 100% covered by SoA.
I've already expressed my tremendous appreciation to Patti via e-mail, but wanted to "publicly" express how pleased I am with the courteous treatment I received from all I talked to at SoA and, of course, with Patti for going beyond expectations to resolve the issue so favorably.
We all love our Subarus for the automobiles they are, but this exemplifies the type of company Subaru is and how they stand behind their product and customers.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2024 Corvette - 2024 BMW X5 - 2023 Tesla Model Y
An LL Bean for about $28k (close to invoice, eventually) sounds like a steal, actually.
I'd still wait for a H6 or turbo GT for the wife, though. Or maybe we can pack light in a WRX wagon, which is the model of choice if you only care about 0-60.
-juice
http://web.senalink.com.au/subiclub
However there is a problem at that site at the moment.
Ther are some more good pics here of Subies and others in the bush.
Gus
http://www.subaru.com.au/frame.asp
then go to
About Subaru
and then
Downloads
to look at a couple of the ads running for Subaru in Australia and some screensavers to make Juice even more enthusiastic.
The background shots give some idea of the Australian scenery and the rally shots give you some idea of a Subaru in its natural environment.
Cheers
Graham
Mileage has been 26 - 31 MPG. Made it through 11k foot passes with ease even with our load. Air conditioner works great and window tint kept us cool even in 100 degree heat of Kansas.
Only hassle so far was getting an oil change at the Soob dealer in Appleton WI. Checked the oil after and the had way overfilled...at least a good inch up the dipstick. Took it back and the mechanic insisted it wasn't overfilled as he wiped the oil down the stick with his thumb. Service manager had him drain some oil and he begrudgingly did so. Real pain in the butt guy...had me worried worried what else he did.
I would never go back to this dealer.
Anyway, great road trip and great car. Can't say enough about the 5 speed being a great combo with the 2.5 4cyl. Easy passes and fun to drive. Oh, and the dual moonroofs are awesome. At hwy speed they make for great ventilation.
More later.
Bit
http://users.bigpond.net.au/subiclub/
Gus
Ps you have probably seen most of these before
Amazing how hard it is to get a good oil change these days. All the stories I hear commit me to doing it myself more and more each time. I guess you should have brought your oil change tools along on the trip, eh?
Hey, so a bunch of us are nagging about wierd noises on our Soobs in the maintenance section. You would fit right in with your OCD ground clearance measurements. :-)
Have a good trip,
Craig
Your're right: the price difference between the VDC and current OB Ltd. isn't $6,000; it's probably somewhere in the range of $4,800 to $5,800. The valid comparison isn't MSRP, it's what you have to pay to get the car. In the case of an Outback Ltd. w/ auto, that's about $25k (Fitzgerald's is a good source of pricing at www.fitzgeraldautomall.com; they list their internet price as $25,200 inc. some acc.). Ken's brother is paying $31k for his VDC and I recently saw prices of $30k for the VDC on amazon.com. (This was a recent drop in price from $30,800; hence the reason for me saying $6,000).
Re. VDC: Yes, it's more than traction control (I know that). My point is simply is it worth it? What is really needed is a direct comparison between the LL Bean model and VDC to determine if there is any real world benefit.
Re. 0-60: We'll see. I certainly hope so. However, add a few passengers and some gear and this car is easily over 4,000 pounds. While 212 HP is decent, it doesn't max out until 6,000 RPM. 210 lb.-ft. of torque at 4,400 ain't too great either. (As a comparison, the V6 Passat is 190 HP at about 6k RPM and 206 lb.-ft of torque at 3,400 RPM.)
Juice,
Re 0-60: I read your post a couple of times, and frankly, don't understand your point. Isn't 0-60 simply an objective measure of acceleration? Whether it's being measured in an AWD Sub or FWD Passat or RWD roadster is irrelevant. If your point is, ceteris paribus, that AWD is inherently slower than FWD off the line and hence at a disadvantage, then I agree. However, that doesn't invalidate the comparison or someone's concern that the car doesn't have enough oomph.
Re. the $6k (or $5k) buying you more than I thought: Oops, forgot about the automatic climate control. RWD bias can add a little bit in terms of performance, but not much since it's only 65/35. (This surely will be lost on the average Joe car buyer I'm afraid.) Oh, and the wood trim...don't you have to pay extra for extending this to the door switches in the VDC? All told, these (auto climate control and wood) can't add more than a few hundred dollars to the cost.
Re. the GT and LL Bean: Yep, you're right, the better comparison with the Passat is the GT wagon. However, since Sub hasn't put the H6 in the GT yet and they don't offer it in leather or with all of the other luxo. features that they reserve for the high end Outbacks, it's really still apples to oranges.
I agree that the LL Bean is the real sleeper H6 car. In fact, if Sub had simply offered this model and a regular, plain vanilla Outback Ltd. with the H6, I think that there would be a whole lot less complaining about the price. But the reality is that some folks don't want to be a billboard for a company, e.g., like the Eddie Bauer Bronco/Explorer, Orvis Edition Jeep Grand Jerokee, etc. (That said, after seeing the LL Bean model up close and personal at the Outback Rendezvous, it's very tasteful and you really do get a lot for your money.) The problem for Suburu is that all of the reviewers are going to concentrate on the top of the line model and that $32k price is going to come up over and over and over again.
Re. Passat comments: I assume that your reliability comments are based on CR. I don't have time to go into it now, but remind me and I'll post something about why you have to take CR reliability estimates with a grain of salt. Oh, the leather seats...when my wife's cousin was in town he let us fool around in his Mercedes S series sedan (He's an exec at DC and gets his pick of the pool). Maybe it's simply German cars in general, but I thought the seats were quite hard. That said, I love firm seats so I have no trouble with the Passat's. Similarly, I didn't have any problem with the Passat's admittedly austere interior layout (beats the plood in the outback, no?).
Here are a few things that the Passat has that are missing in the Outback (no, I'm not going to mention the memory seats again!): way cool blue dash lighting; telescoping steering wheel; and in my opinion, superior exterior finish (compare the number of door dings, scratches, etc. on your average one-year old Passat and Outback...I don't know what it is but the Japanese cars that I have owned seem to be much more dent/scratch prone than German cars...better paint? thicker metal? dunno)
Misc.: Don't hold your breath waiting for the H6 and other goodies in the GT wagon...Subaru seems hell bent on differentiating the Legacy and Outback lines. Adding more features to the GT would pull them closer together. That said, I'm all for beefing up the GT...add an H6 or turbo; make leather an option; bring back real red paint; maybe even a beige interior...
Bill
1) My OB rides better than the Passat. Interestingly so given the fact that it is dealing w/a higher ride height.
2) The price point at which I bought my OB Ltd was a helluva a lot less than the VW dealer(read supreme arrogance)was willing to sell the V6 Passat wagon w/comparable equipment except the obvious AWD!
3) CR or not, VW's have not been known for reliability since they quit producing the original Bug...sorry, truth hurts!
4) The warranty overall is better on the Soob than the VW. VW's lofty 100,000 mile powertrain pales in comparison to the paltry 24mo/24000 mile warranty that is offered in conjunction. The 36mo/36000 mile bumper to bumper offers more real world benefit or maybe there is a reason VW had started to offer the 100k powertrain warranty...hmmmm
5) AWD was a must for me and seeing how VW dealt w/me and quite a few others I might add, I wasn't willing to subject myself to an all out battle dealing on a 4-motion or even waiting for the opportunity to do so (see comment on availability BS in #2).
6) I needed the extra ground clearance for the limited off-road adventures I do.
7) The interior, especially the seats (front and rear) were much more comfortable than the VW. I know, German derierres and all. I lived in Germany 6 years and seen my share of German interiors...no surprises there.
8) I liked the idea of the dual sunroofs, not even offered on the Passat.
9) I have Ltd slip, not offered on the Passat.
10 To sum it up...in my book the OB Ltd offered more value than the Passat V6 wagon and offers more than the 4-motion.
When it comes time to upgrade (when I feel and not because the Soob has let me down) I will upgrade to the VDC w/o a doubt. I know that the price point at which I buy it will be lower than that at which I can get a 4-motion from VW.
Stephen
There are aspects of the Passat that I would love to see in the Outback. Better logic on the electrical circuits so the dimming interior light switches off instantly once the ignition fires. Windows which can be closed for say thirty seconds after the ignition goes off. Smarter cup holders. These are minor though.
Cheers
Graham
Ok, I have to give one back, though possibly not as useful as Gurunet. Alexa provides links to sites similar to the content of the one your browser has open (it dynamically searches in the background while you're browsing), as well as other helpful information. Sometimes I use a search engine like AltaVista or Google to get me started, then turn on Alexa to find related sites. It slows down your browsing somewhat (sucks up some bandwidth to search in the background), so I turn it on and off as needed.
..Mike
..Mike
Remember the GMC Syclone and Typhoon? They were faster than a vette 0-60 in the rain due to their AWD system. I think that those 2 trucks and the Talon TSI first generation is what hooked me on AWD. Subaru just won my heart over after that...
-mike
Graham: thanks for the link. I'll down load the screen saver and try it out. More enthusiastic? Is that possible...?
Bit: 31mpg? Holy cow!
Bill: the VDC is worth it to some, not to others, but that's why there's the LL Bean. I think Subaru should have launched the LL Bean first to ease people over the $30k price barrier.
Yes, that was my point about 0-60 and AWD. In real world driving, though, the boxer engines produce good torque down low. The H6 produces plenty of it even at very low rpm.
I'll take your word on the seats. I also like firm seats, but the leather just seemed hard and uncomfortable. Admittedly it was a very short ride.
The Passat's dash lighting is cool, but I've been exposed to way too much "Barney" to be into purple! And there's nothing wrong with plood if it looks good, and the Outback's does. Some real wood doesn't look as good.
Paisan hit on an important point, though. My old next door neighbor had an AWD Eclipse, but it still stunk in the snow because it had no ground clearance. He said the front spoiler scraped on everything.
My current next door neighbor has an A6 and still had to ask me to get milk during the storm last year. Yes, Quattro, but that alone is not enough - you need the clearance to get through deep snow or even sand.
So the Passat has AWD mostly for performance. Torsens are very nice, though a bit heavier and more costly than Subaru's AWD. Ground clearance is only about average, I believe less than even the Legacy GT has.
So, different strokes for different folks. If you're happy and the Passat fits your needs, it's all good.
-juice