Subaru Crew - Future Models II

nygreg

Although not an expert on oil reserves, the country needs to keep a large supply available in case of war. My take on gas guzzlers is skewed more towards the environmental impact than cost.

-Greg

rsholland

are starting to arrive. I saw several a local dealer today. Visually, it's virtually impossible to tell them apart from the '01 models. I think(?) the color of the cladding on the S models is slightly different from '01.

They do have DRLs and a 2-speed rear wiper, and the cargo cover is now standard. That's about it.

Bob

locke2c

Alwin, Canada has a WHOLE BUNCH of crude oil, but everything in the east is really heavy and nasty.

Fortunately we own one of the only refineries capable of making gasoline from it in Pinebend, Minnesota. We even make low-sulfur gas from it, marketed under the Blue Planet brand name.

Canadiens could only be perfectly self-sufficient if more of their cars ran on diesel. ;-)

-Colin

rsholland

especially the last sentence...

Bob

http://www.edmunds.com/news/feature/vehicles/42976/article.html

liondogs

I read an article about 6 months to 1 year ago and they interviewed a Ford exec about the outlook for the SUV market. He stated that Ford felt that as long as gas prices stayed below 2 dollars a gallon that there would be no effect on the SUV market. Above that and there would be a slow down in sales.
I think the biggest threat to SUV sales will come from the flood of AWD cars that are coming to market in the next few years. If you can have the safety, handling and gas economy of a AWD car why buy a large gas sucking tippy SUV.

Joe

paisan

Joe,
2 reasons actually: Space and towing.

There have been AWD vans on the market for years, but they haven't taken a major or even minor portion of the SUV sales away. You can't compare the comfort and interior space of an AWD sedan to that of an AWD SUV.

Forester/OB is a perfect example of towing. You can't tow anything over 1000lbs w/o brakes, and nothing over 2000lbs period behind these vehicles. That excludes just about any trailer since no trailers below 3000 or 3500lbs come with brakes, and even if you load up a 2000lb trailer with brakes, you would significantly be unable to put much as far as passengers and cargo inside the vehicle because the GVWR is eaten up partially by the trailer.

I'm a prime example of a lost sale to SUVs...

Had my deposit ready to go for an '00 Legacy GT Wagon. Test drove it and it was great. Then I test drove it with 4 of my closest paisans... Car couldn't get out of it's own way. Now if I loaded it up in addition to the people, camping gear in the cargo area to the limit + a 2000lb boat trailer, and the car would not move an inch. I ended up with a 2000 Trooper instead @ $2500-$3000 more than the Legacy GT...

-mike

locke2c

Oh come on, you can't tell me that your 3.5L 215HP/230lb-ft 4500lb Trooper is the cat's meow hauling 5 large adults and a 2000lb boat!

Why didn't you get a REAL suv if that was your concern?

-Colin

ateixeira

At least there is one solid benefit to the higher gas prices: fewer view-blocking, left-lane hogging Excursions on the road.

Hopefully this will force people into more efficient, car-based SUVs. It basically already is.

Also, we're going to see hybrid SUVs, like the Durango V6+electric. SUVs are cash cows so they aren't going away any time soon.

Meanwhile, nothing in my fleet gets less than 20mpg in the city on regular octane gas. So I'm really not that vulnerable.

Bob: I think they were just speculating about that full-size truck. The ST-X is definitely a compact, and a full-sizer would very likely mean a GM platform. They already have the C3 will all-wheel drive, so I don't see a need for a Subie version.

-juice

rsholland

Yeah... but who knows where speculation can lead to... Besides, it's fun.

As to the GMC C-3 AWD: There are many people who would not buy that vehicle, or any American pickup. Witness the success of the Toyota Tundra. So (and I've said this before), a full-size, 5.0 H-8 (two 2.5's H-4s siamesed together), with a dual-range AWD is maybe not that far of a stretch—in perhaps 5 years or so. Subaru is testing the market with STX. If it proves successful, who knows... Besides, a person looking a the STX would more than likely not be cross-shopping a full-size truck. So, IMO, there's room for both.

Bob

ateixeira

OK, let's roll with it. We're talking about 2006 or so here.

By then the bigger 2005 SUW will be out, so the platform is ready, but should they use that or the GM one?

Depends. For light duty, recreational-type duty, the Soob platform would work. But not for work or heavy-duty stuff - that could be left to GM any way.

So give it the H6 with a 5 speed auto, tranny cooler, beefy brakes, 1600 lb payload, 3500 lbs towing. Big question is, what body style? Regular or Crew cab?

Both - mid gate style? Definitely.

-juice

rsholland

If Subaru ever enters that market, it has to have all the hallmarks that make it a Subaru: boxer engine, AWD (dual-range), IFS/IRS, etc. It can't be a copy of what's already out there.

If it were sized like the Tundra, which to me is the perfect size for Harry and Harriet homeowner, it would be a smash hit. I think the towing would have to be upwards of 6000# or better. The Tundra, properly equipped, can tow over 7000#.

Bob

ateixeira

You H8 idea is a good one. I just remembered how badly the T100 was rejected initially.

More important is the payload, though. Especially with the IFS/IRS, they need to figure out how to haul a big load.

-juice

rsholland

I agree, absolutely. Actually I would prefer a payload closer to 2000#.

For those who think this is a nutty, off-the-wall idea, that Subaru (being a small company) has no business pursuing; I disagree.

The full-size pickup market in this country is huge. The top two vehicle sellers for years have been the Ford F-150 and Chevy Silverado. The Dodge Ram is also in the top 10. There's much room for more choice and diversity here.

Subaru, now with GM's deep pockets, should seriously be looking into this market.

Bob

ateixeira

Now that Toyota has gained acceptance, Nissan is diving in.

-juice

rsholland

And... I predict the Nissan will also be a success—assuming they tone down the goofy styling of the concept truck they've shown.

Bottom line: if it "works," looks good, and is priced right, it can't help but be a hit.

Bob

armac13

you took the words right out of my mouth. I think its a nutty, off-the-wall idea. :-)

Ross

rsholland

Here are a few more nutty, off-the-wall-ideas, from, say... five years ago:

GM would buy 20% of Subaru.
Porsche would introduce an SUV.
Subaru would offer a vehicle such as the WRX to the USA.
Ford would own Land Rover.

I could go on, but you get the point. 5 years from now, anything is possible.

Bob

rsholland

It's really not that nutty of an idea when you consider the following:

GM & Subaru are collaborating on a larger SUV platform, which is to debut around 2005. There could very well be other spin-offs of this platform, including a full-size pickup. GM also has plenty of factory space that could be be put to better use.

Owners of the soon-to-be-released STX pickup, may very well want to upgrade (around 2006 or so) to a larger Subaru pickup. It's a well known fact that when Toyota designed the Tundra, they were anticipating most of their customers would come from owners of other (small) import trucks (and cars). They targeted those owners, more so than traditional Ford/Chevy/Dodge truck owners. It looks like they were right.

Most rural homeowners, who own an acre or more of land, have some sort of SUV or pickup. Many of them also own Japanese imports such as Toyotas, Hondas, etc. That's a huge audience to tap into.

So, I don't think it's so nutty an idea at all.

Bob

FrankMc

It also shows that the SUV mania is about over. My prediction is that the people who don't ever go off-road (99%) and never tow anything (another large number) will move to some other type of vehicle.

ateixeira

I think so too. They are going to water down the meaning of what it is to be a "Porsche". Remember how poorly the 924 fared?

They should stick with rear/mid engined sports cars.

Then again, that's what Cadillac did as they watched Lincoln (and everyone else) trample them in sales.

-juice

paisan

Colin,
With 5 adults loaded to the gills + 3500lb boat trailer, I have as much or more pickup than the Legacy GT Wagon with only those same 5 adults. Also, the Trooper is a REAL suv. Just look in Sub-sahara africa and Australia: Pajero, Jackaroo, TLC... Isuzu only makes SUVs, they aren't pickups that have caps on them (AKA Suburban/Explorer/Envoy/Denali/Blazer/Durango)

-mike

ateixeira

Credit where credit is due - the Trooper is all over the place in 3rd world countries with no paved roads. Belize had tons of 'em. Suriname too.

Pajeros and Land Cruisers are also popular.

-juice

locke2c

I meant something with real power, in light of Paisan's extraordinary demands of the Legacy GT wagon.

-Colin

ateixeira

I'm just saying it is a "real" SUV, as opposed to the newer designer SUVs, which have never proven themselves in those regions.

That said, I'm sure a 2000 lb trailer affects the power/weight ratio on a Trooper a lot less than it does on a small vehicle (where it nearly doubles the weight you carry).

paisan probably barely notices the extra weight.

-juice

paisan

I fully expect a vehicle that seats 5 comfortably, to be able to pack the back with their stuff, and tow a boat for a week of camping. Is that too much to ask?

-mike

rsholland

sometimes do come to pass. You (we) can't really predict what Subaru, or any other auto company, might do down the road. Based on recent history, don't be surprised if some day you see a larger pickup from Subaru. It's certainly more reasonable than a Porsche SUV, IMHO.

Bob

barresa62

Paisan: Unfortunately, I think it is if you look around as to what's available in the marketplace. One is pretty much forced to go w/a truck or SUV (maybe a minivan w/larger motor?) or a full size RWD sedan like a Crown Vic/Marquis/Town Car. Sad...but true.

Stephen

kens

After having driven a Trooper for a week, I'd say it's a real SUV. Didn't get to test it with 5 people and a boat in the back, however.

It's funny how Isuzu now advertises "we make trucks, not cars". Anyone remember the Isuzu Impulse?

The Porsche SUV is too weird for me. It's too far a leap from their core competency.

Also drove a Marquis for a week. That's one car that I can say will seat five comfortably. Maybe that's why cops like them -- holds more prisoners.

Ken

paisan

If I could find one of the turbo awd ones, I'd buy one of those. The original Impulse was actually RWD based which I think is neat.

-mike

barresa62

the later Impulse models were "suspension tuned by Lotus" as I remember. Styled by Guigaro as well. I thought they were a good looking car that retained as much of the original show car look as did the Subaru SVX.

Stephen

locke2c

The Impulse was FWD, possibly with an AWD option. It was the one that was "tuned by Lotus" though.

The Stylus was the one Paisan is thinking of, RWD or AWD, 2.0L turbo making something like 160HP.

-Colin

hammersley

I'd like to go there & do my own vehicle survey... "Cars on the beach"...say, for a month? Yeah, that's the ticket!
Cheers! (clinking Coronas)
Paul

paisan

Impulse was RWD/AWD in the first Generation.

In the 2nd generation the Impulse = Geo Storm.

The Stylus was in the 90s and was FWD only.

http://cars.com/carsapp/national/?srv=review&act=search&mkid=21&mdid=233&yr=1986&x=19&y=22

-mike

jei

Year 2005 or 2006: I could see Subaru coming up with a 4-door crew cab midgate pickup with a removable factory cap that would convert it into a true SUV when needed. One you could actually put farm loads into without wrecking the cargo area "upholstery". Style it with a short front nose for lighter weight & better-than-average-for-a-truck maneuverability / visibility. Use beefed-up independent rear suspension for car-like handling. Add a supercharged H-6, 5 speed AT or 6 speed MT with high/low range. Maybe consider developing a diesel version for overseas markets with more expensive fuel prices. [Also: This may be heresy, BUT they might also use a GM engine / transmission combo; some are pretty robust. -Just stay away from GM electrics, seats, controls, styling...] It would need a wider platform which could be shared with a 7 seat SUW, true Grand Forester, etc. It would have to be able to tow at least 4,500lb.
This truck could be a niche that Subaru could best fill; they've got enough ability to engineer "out of the box". Something in the size range of the Ford Ranger, Toyota Tacoma, Nissan Frontier, Chevy S-10. Maybe even slightly bigger. It would probably also sell in Australia, NZ, Britain and other countries where Subaru wagons are considered working vehicles.
I'd pay $26,000 in today's dollars for a mid-trim version of this truck when time came to replace either our '92 Legacy or '99 Forester. What do you think Patti?

John (in a world of Daves)

francophile

I vote no! There are too many blasted trucks on the road now. Give me a US-spec Legacy B4.

-wdb

subearu

No Subaru Truck!

I traded in my '97 Chevy Z71 for our '00 Outback wagon. Fold down the rear seats and you've pretty much got about a small pickup bed worth of space back there (albeit with a cap). Better handling, better ride, better mileage. If I truely need a truck, the U-Haul on the corner rents 'em for $19/day.

Here in Kenosha, WI (home to a Chrysler engine plant), the ratio of trucks to cars is about 65/35 IMHO.

I'd love to see a Blizten type Legacy. Bring it on!

-Brian

rsholland

you are coming at this from a performance-oriented perspective. You love sports cars, sports sedans, etc., thus I understand your point of view. However, there are many Subaru loyalists out there who could care less about that aspect, and who might appreciate such a vehicle.

Who do you think the STX is aimed at? Sports car enthusiasts? I think not. I'm suggesting a vehicle that STX owners might want to grow into. They may love their STX, but find it too small, or not work-capable enough. They want the attributes of the STX, but in a larger more useful vehicle.

So, does Subaru want to risk losing those STX owners, to say... Toyota or Nissan, which has (or will have) vehicles to fit their needs? Or should Subaru have something waiting in the wings for them to move up to? If I were in Subaru's Product Planning department, the answer would be pretty clear to me.

Bob

jei

Guess I'm more utility- than sports- oriented, having owned 1 coupe (a '66 Pontiac), 1 sedan (a '63 Dodge), 2 pickups (a '66 Chevy, '76 Toyota), and 4 wagons ('63 Valiant, '69 Volvo, '85 Toyota Tercel 4WD, '99 Forester) in my time. I'm hopelessly biased toward cars that earn their keep.

However, I would also love to see a B4/Blitzen or other fast Legacy GT sedans (+ wagons!) in Subaru's mix, even taking priority over a truck. More in keeping with Subaru's rally / performance direction. They would make more sense to me as cars than the current Outback sedan to me. For my lifestyle and income, I'm a Forester kind of guy; just not likely to actually buy a sports car or sports sedan. If I did it'd be a 5-speed WRX in blue!

John

rsholland

for a full-size truck is long-term, say for MY2006 or later.

I absolutely agree that Subaru needs to shore up their current model lineup before debuting a larger truck. Remember, I see a full-size truck as for STX customers who want/need something larger. And...

The STX won't even debut until sometime next year. So... those (STX) customers who want/need a larger truck, are several years down the road, at the earliest—which leaves plenty of time for Subaru to fine-tune their current model lineup.

Having said that (BTW, I too am a repressed enthusiast), now is the time for Subaru to start planning for MY2006 and later, hence the discussion.

Bob

paisan

I'd say they may re-badge the new S-10 that Isuzu is designing for GM as a subaru possibly. Also I could see an Axiom being re-badged as a Grand-forester as well, especially since it is made in the SIA plant. It rides like a subie, and has the trademark AWD of a subie, just no boxer engine . I'd bet the grille of a subie badged Axiom would be 1000x better too.

-mike

rsholland

never happens. Nothing against Isuzu, I just strongly believe rebadging "anything" is a huge mistake, especially for Subaru. Part of Subaru's "uniqueness" is that they are—"unique." I can't think of a worse solution to filling a market niche than doing that.

Bob

yellowbikedon

Amen!

Don

armac13

on this we are in total agreement. I'm new to Subaru, but I've always appreciated cars that were a bit .... different. Let's hope that the character can be retained. This would not be possible with rebadging!

Ross

subearu

is famous (infamous?) for rebadging. Anyone remember Geo? The Izuzu Hombre is the S series pickup. And what about the Borrego? Who cares that the body isn't anything Subaru has - but the drivetrain certainly is Subaru!

I like Subaru's uniqueness - that's what brought me to our Outback! I like the fact that there aren't many out there.

However, with GM in the picture now, I'm beginning to suspect that a rebadged product (a pickup truck perhaps?) might find it's way into Subaru's lineup. Certainly would be a cheaper and faster way to go - even if it's not the right way to go.

-Brian

rsholland

Let's hope (PRAY!) that never happens.

I can certainly see GM producing something like the concept Chevy Borrego, which is based upon Subaru running gear. However, I don't ever want to see a Subaru-badged vehicle using GM running gear.

Bob

bigfrank3

I agree. If GM running gear starts showing up in Subarus, the Soob I have will be my last.

GM is a virus, keep your checkers up to date. Don't let it spread! Just set your virus checker to only allow money through.

Regards,

Frank

smstm

smstm

Can anyone tell me any new information about the upcoming Sti? I read in a recent Car and driver that it is coming soon, but it was rather vague. Can anyone give me any details regarding when it is coming and how much this will cost and any other pertinent info?? thanks

rsholland

The C&D article offers pretty good info. Best bet is about 2 years from now. New Zealand's Subaru web site offers some interesting info. The 6-speed tranny is the problem. They just can't make them fast enough to meet demand.

http://www.subaru.co.nz/

Bob

paisan

I hate re-badging myself. Isuzu actually isn't re-badging any GM products or Honda products right now So for right now, it's free of non-Isuzu stuff. Although they do use a lot of GM parts (radiators, Delphi Electronics, and A/C Delco radios) But I have to say, even with these components they are still all isuzu to the core as far as they can go while being owned 49% by GM. I don't think the particular components Isuzu has borrowed from the GM parts bin have hurt them at all. Hopefully they will share the same approach to Subaru as that. In fact GM actually lucked out, all the Good-Ole-Boys driving their GMC Pickup with V8 Duramax Diesel Engine think they have an American car, but little do they know it's actually an Isuzu Diesel (which is actually Isuzu''s core business Med-heavy Duty Trucks and Diesel Technology.)

-mike