My Salesperson Misled Me

mackabee

Let's not go there. That's a sore subject in my household.

british_rover

Random question...

Did you get an westminsters?

lrguy44

Three

lrguy44

OOOOOPPPPPS......Let's change that to Toledo :sick:

british_rover

I got two so far and might be able to get a third.

We already have one sold.

athens

To allege a claim of Consumer fraud, which is what I believe is what our TSX purchaser hints at, you need to demonstrate that a business (or authorized agent for that business) which sells goods or services to consumers knowingly makes a material misrepresentation of fact, upon which a consumer could REASONABLY rely on to their detriment. The consumer need not ACTUALLY rely or act on such misrepresentation. You do not need to show the business or its agent made the false claim with the intent of inducing the consumer to act. All you need demonstrate is that the business or its agent had knowledge that the representation was not based in fact.

Additionally, contracts for consumer goods or services can also be voided based upon mistake in terms, where the enforcement of the mistaken terms would be unconscionable.

All issues which have been brought up here relating to "Due Dilligence" on the part of the consumer are not determinative of the issue. "Due Dilligence" refers to a duty upon on party seeking to enter or execute a contract with another party. Typically it relates to transactions where both parties are on equal footing such as commercial entities entering into transactions in the course of their doing business. Example: An airline buying airplanes. A shopping center developer buying land for development. A car rental company buying a fleet of cars. Although a savvy consumer (who has done more research) might typically end up in a better financial position than a less savvy shopper, there is no duty of "Due Dilligence" upon a consumer requisite to a claim of fraud.

Even if Carroll Shelby goes to purchase a car from a retail car dealer, the vast superiority of his knowledge about the product over that of a salesman or even the dealership owner, does not absolve the dealership or its staff of their duty not to misrepresent.

The amount of training the sales staff is immaterial as to whether fraud can be proved. What if the ownership of the dealer has little familiarity with the product. That is why the fraudulent act is ultimately attributable to the dealership.

Now certainly damages have to be proven. Also you will always have issues of fact on whether the consumer could reasonably rely on a particular representation and whether the misrepresentation was material. Examples of representations a consumer probably COULD NOT reasonably rely on: a salesman offering identifying a Jaguar XK as an Aston Martin DB series or a standard Chevy Aveo being offered with a 500 bhp engine.

Mistake that might make a contract unenforceable for unconscionability? How about a brand new Bentley Continental being sold for $100. Except, perhaps, in the event that gas sells at $30 per gallon!!

snakeweasel

To allege a claim of Consumer fraud,

Actually there has to be:

1.) a material misrepresentation

2.) Any misrepresentation must not be obvious to a reasonable person.

3.) The customer must act on that information.

Without those there can be no breech of the law.

Additionally, contracts for consumer goods or services can also be voided based upon mistake in terms,

It would depend on the mistake, The mistake has to be obvious to a reasonable person. Also mistakes of fact by experts won't void the contract if that mistake harms said expert.

An example, if you owned a sports memorabilia store and I came in saying "my nephew loves football do you have anything reasonably priced that I can give him for is birthday" and you showed me something saying it was worth $50 but you were mistaken and it was really worth $5,000 the deal would stand. You would be considered the expert and I would be taking your word at the value of the item.

Kirstie_H

To our "internet v traditional" discussion, since, erm... that's what was being discussed.

mako1a

This happened almost 2 years ago, but demonstrates dealer/salespeople idea of internet shopping. I called on an expired e-bay car (Mustang GT). Discussed reserve price and agreed to a sales price of $22k. I drove there with $4k in my pocket and the title to my car as trade was also discussed. I drove the car, waited for them to put it all on paper then the idiocy began. My trade value was as expected. Low, but in book for a 2006 still under warranty. His was a 2005 with very little warranty left. All of a sudden his price was $24,995 and the difference required was over $6k. What's with these morons?

After informing his SM that I was quoted 22k over the phone and now $3k moreI didn't even waste my time any further. I got my keys and car then as I was leaving I wanted to take a leak. Parked right in front and went in. SM smiled at me like I just turned into Diamond Jim Brady. I said don't get yer pants in a bunch, this is just a bathroom visit. And you should really stop using those 80s tactics. They don't work anymore and I'll reward you with a call to Nissan. As I left they had about 5 guys lined up out front saying what a shame it was we couldn't meet on the price. Yeah right. And you wonder why you can't sell anything.

de77

Did you ask for the same person that quoted you the price on the phone when you arrived at the dealership?

mako1a

Yes I did. Internet sales manager.

ps, I told this story on frontlines and one of the brighter bulbs said I should have gotten a print out of the agreed on price. Sorry, but if you can't remember a price quote for 2 hours shame on you.

I gotta tell you, all this body language and eyes glazing is a pack of baloney. Once I lock in on an Edmunds price and dealer quote all the kings horses won't make me budge a dollar. If you said it...make it so.

mako1a

ps I just got the 2008 Consumer Reports car buying guide and I still have my 2006 Solara SLE V6. The 2006 Solara got excellent marks and a *best buy* while the 2005 and 2006 Mustang GT got the (not so coveted) cars to avoid rating. Hey, maybe the (grinch) Nissan dealer in Greensboro, NC did me a favor.

chikoo

Sorry, but if you can't remember a price quote for 2 hours shame on you.

Heh...heh..it is not a matter of remembering a price quote. It is a written guarantee that you will not be screwed and wasting time like you did. From now on, ask the internet sales manager to send the quote via email or fax.

oldfarmer50

"...Ask the internet sales manager to send the quote via e-mail or fax..."

Unless the manager's first name is isell then I wouldn't hold my breath.

I'm not sure even a written quote would have made a difference with mako1a's dealer. I'm sure if he pulled out his paper the salesman would have had a story about a "mistake" being made or some such nonsense.

Evidently they feel that once in the store, the chance of closing you goes up about 500%. If it takes holding your grandma hostage some dealers would do it to get you in the door.

mako1a

From now on, ask the internet sales manager to send the quote via email or fax.

It would make no difference. Mgrs would have them trying some other ploy to get the numbers where they want them. When there is no financing and better yet no trade there is only 1 thing to deal with. Price!
Uh Oh nothing to crunch. How do you make a single number look better with no distractions? You don't.

chikoo

I'm not sure even a written quote would have made a difference with mako1a's dealer. I'm sure if he pulled out his paper the salesman would have had a story about a "mistake" being made or some such nonsense.

Maybe. But if it is a written quote, you still have a bargaining chip. Whereas on a verbal note, it is my word against yours.

mako1a

Maybe. But if it is a written quote, you still have a bargaining chip. Whereas on a verbal note, it is my word against yours.

You're missing the point. There is no my word...your word. No I'm right you're wrong. No Sale!

Dealer agreed to sell for X. I agreed to pay X.

Then dealer changes to X plus $3000. I leave.

No commision, No happy car buyer. No Sale!
I say bad things about him which other dealers assume means them also.

Nobody's happy. No money. No car. All because dealer LIED in hopes of getting buyer in the store.

Solution: Stop lying to get internet buyers in the store.
Internet buyers avoid going to dealerships.
If you want internet buyers in your store, be honest.
If you don't want internet buyers, just say so. They won't darken your doorway or test drive your cars.

If you say "we must do a dog and pony show so I can read your body language and shake you down for max profit" That, they will believe.
That's all they hear when you speak anyway.

fezo

I , too, will usually leave at the first lie. I don't mean the "Hey, these cars are hot. I can't do much on price," when we are talking about a car I know is being heavily discounted elsewhere. I'm talking about ones such as the case in hand where an agreed upon price suddenly changes by thousands of dollars.

I'm a really easy sale for a straightforward salesman but I don't do well at all with bozos.

mikefm58

I'm a really easy sale for a straightforward salesman but I don't do well at all with bozos.

Same here. And I'm out the door with the first lie. No one gets my business for that, not at any price.

oldfarmer50

"...I don't do well at all with the bozos..."

Sad to say, there must be lots of customers who do, otherwise they would stop the clown tricks.

mattr1

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me...

I purchased a used Nissan Altima 2.5S model about 10 months ago. I'm now looking to trade, due to the fact that I'm just not happy with it. Well, I go to a Honda dealer to look at a 2007 Accord EX-L w/ Black Leather interior, nice. I'm considering to purchase the car, so the manager looks at what I'm trading. He notices that my car has had a PAINT JOB. What!!! No chance in me getting the kind of deal I was expecting. This news shocks the crap out of me. The cars value plummets. What can I do in my case? Can I take my Altima back to the original dealer and get some sort of refund? My suspicion is no, but surely there is something that I can do. Car fax shows a clean history. I live in TN, but the lemon law doesn't apply since the car wasn't purchased new. The paint job is nice, but if you look at the edges of the door, hoods, etc., it's so obvious. I hope that someone can give me some advice in my situation.

tedebear

He notices that my car has had a PAINT JOB

My first step would be to find out why it was repainted. If it had been in an accident and the Carfax report didn't indicate it then you could go from there.

I think Carfax has some sort of buyer protection guarantee that if you purchase a report and it doesn't show a major repair that you later find out about they will buy the vehicle from you. I don't know how long after you get the report the guarantee lasts.

jmonroe

The paint job is nice, but if you look at the edges of the door, hoods, etc., it's so obvious.

Unfortunately it wasn’t obvious to you and I’d like to tell you it can be rectified by having it ‘buffed out’ at a body shop. Don’t let someone try to do that. Edges are a nightmare to buff because it’s so easy to burn through the paint, which is probably why it wasn’t done at the time the paint job was done.

So, I guess what I’m saying is, leave it alone and if you still want to trade the car you’ll have to take the hit. You didn’t say what year the car is but keeping it for a while until you won’t be killed by normal depreciation is probably the best thing to do financially. But, like I said, if you can’t live with it you will have to pay the price for not keeping it.

Hopefully someone has a better idea. Doing that Carfax check is a long shot but what do you have to lose?

Let us know what happens.

Good luck,

jmonroe

jescue

It would be nice to think that a clean carfax is a guarantee of no issues, but that is far from the truth. Carfax only shows repairs that are reported, and many are not. If a police report is filed, carfax will pick it up, but I have seen terrible cars with a clean report. There is a local dealer that scours the auctions for the dregs no one else will buy. They paint them and clean them and undercut our prices by thousands. The new owners bring them into service with issues and are surpised at what we find. Some of these repaints are so obvious I cannot imagine not noticing. At any rate these dealers are off the hook as long as they do not misrepresent the car. Clean carfax, they do not state specifically there is no paintwork, there is little you can do. On a positive note, I cannot imagine a repaint on an Altima would make a huge impact on value. It will destroy the value of a highline car but I would think $1000 to $1500 on a mainstream car like this.

joel0622

Go to a reputable body shop and ask them to look the car over for damage.

Possibly this paint job the dealer is telling you is where there was a scratch on the 1/4 panel the dealer had fixed.

oldfarmer50

"...is where there was a scratch..."

Quite true. Or the dealer knows this is a minor repair but is hoping to low-ball your trade. As joel0622 suggests go to a reputable body shop and find out what was repaired and repainted. Perhaps even get a statement from the shop to show the dealer.

As to what you can do with the dealer that sold you the car, probably nothing. Maybe next time have a used car checked out before you buy. I see ads in the phone book for services who will inspect cars for $99. Might save hundreds in lost resale value.

jmonroe

Possibly this paint job the dealer is telling you is where there was a scratch on the 1/4 panel the dealer had fixed.

The original poster said:

"The paint job is nice, but if you look at the edges of the door, hoods, etc.,".

That sounds like a complete paint job to me not just a 1/4 panel. But it won't hurt to have a reputable body shop look at it. Maybe something can be done to fix it.

jmonroe

lrguy44

Any repaint can be easily detected by a little electronic device we have that measures paint depth. Although most repaints are easy to find by opening the hood, doors or trunk, this little device will tell you exactly what panels have been redone.

joel0622

Cool!!! What is it called, my UCM would be interested in that

jescue

Ours is called an elcometer. It can do aluminum panels as well as steel.

kyfdx

Elco, I think...

jescue beat me to it...

jmonroe

...this little device will tell you exactly what panels have been redone.

I am familiar with these widgets. I remember when paint depth detectors were magnetic. They were pretty good in their day but nothing like what the electronic ones can do.

If one of these marvels shows enough paint along all the edges (pretty unlikely) there is a chance it can be 'buffed out' but I wouldn't count on it.

jmonroe

mackabee

We had a couple of those. Problem was some manufacturers don't do a good job of painting their vehicles so we would get different readings throughout the cars' panels. On the quality cars it works like a charm.
Mackabee
How 'bout them Cowboys!

nthe

another alt is to sell the car private party, you will get more than with a trade.

and no carfax offers no guarantee for its accident check. they guarantee 1 owner cars and title indicators, but not accidents because as other have said, not all body shops report to carfax.

isellhondas

Right. Car Fax doesn't report everything.

They also report as "accidents" the most minor things like someone running into the car with a shopping cart that required a minor repair.

And I agree, expecailly if the Car Fax is clean, that repaint unless it's a horrible job shouldn't impact the calue THAT much.

mikefm58

How 'bout them Cowboys!

I've been a die hard Cowboy fan since the Ice bowl. Romo was on fire last night.

mackabee

Me too! Romo and the Boys showed a lot of class last night by not pulling a New England on the Packers. I really wished Brett could've finished the game. I think it was Tony's dream to play against his childhood idol.

oldfarmer50

"...unless it's a horrible job shouldn't impact the car value THAT much..."

That statement contradicts what many sales people have said on several different forums.

obyone

"That statement contradicts what many sales people have said on several different forums. "

Are contraditions by sales people something new?

joel0622

Here is the thing about a total repaint, and think of it from your point of view as a consumer.

If you come in to look at a used car and as I am presenting it to you I say, "BTW Mr Customer this car has had a total paint job done on it, but they did an excellent job"

How many red flags just went up in your head as to why the paint job was done and how much did that mentaly diminishes the value for you?

snakeweasel

and no carfax offers no guarantee for its accident check.

Yes they do its a one year guarantee, but its limited to DMV-reported incidents. Take that for what its worth.

obyone

I would think it depended on the car. Say a 1969 Camaro done right a repaint could be worth upwards of 6K. Course on a 2006 Camry I wouldn't consider buying it.

isellhondas

Well, it's a low end Nissan. On cars like that, a lot of people don't care all that much. Besides, it didn't show on the Car Fax.

And it might not have been a total repaint. It could have been keyed on one side or something?

What bothers some people can be no big deal to others.

jmonroe

What bothers some people can be no big deal to others.

I'm confused because what we've heard here, it is the death nell when trying to trade.

You're a "people", if I showed up at your store, with the car in question, what happens?

jmonroe

jboxton

"I shook hands with a customer and he told me he was done shopping and he was going to pick his car up Wednesday. I asked if we could do the paper work ahead of time to lock it up and he told me he had to take his daughter to the doctor. Who could argue with that? I had my manager buy the car off another dealer and had it detailed and filled with gas for Wednesday. An hour after our set appointment I called my customer and he said he went to another dealer after he left our store and bought the car there."

It works both ways.

isellhondas

I didn't see the car so it's hard to say.

Paintwork will devalue a car but just how much depends on the quality of the job and the car in question.

Obviously the poster was one of those "people" who wasn't bothered at the time they bought it!

isellhondas

This story just shows that some people don't value a handshake.

They think it's just fine to agree to a sale, shake hands on it only to run from store to store shopping that number. This is pretty common and I would guess that in the minds of a lot of people, there is nothing wrong with this.

After all, it's all about the almighty dollar.

Pretty sad...

cccompson

Just bought a '98 4Runner for my son. It had a clean Carfax although it had been hit in the rear hard enough that the liftgate had been replaced several years ago. The paint match was good there and where there left front fender and driver's door had been re-sprayed at some point. Hard to go through 120K without something happening along the way.

Now if we'd been shopping at twice the price point, such a history would likely have been a deal breaker.

isellhondas

Exactly.

A well repaired car isn't going to cause problems down the road.

oldfarmer50

"...he went to another dealer after he left our store..."

That guy was a jerk. There are,sad to say, no shortage of them.