That's probably the biggest issue. I don't know how much has changed (if any) but it's been pretty well reported that Ford's most flexible plants are in other countries (Brazil comes to mind) and I have read Ford can't use the same process here in the states due to union rules. If that's true, then I don't blame Ford for building cars where they can build them anyway they see fit.
I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Mexico built Ford. I've looked over my brother's '10 Fusion Sport and the fit-n-finish and the panel gap alignment is far better than my wife's uaw built '11 Taurus. It looks like it was just slapped together by a bunch of drunks. Oh wait......
The Fusion is probably Ford's best built and most reliable car they currently offer.
Well something must have changed for Ford. Because I did a small bit of research and the Ford plant that will be building the Focus in MI will be Ford's most flexible plant in the world. I don't know if that will mean it will also be the most efficient, but at least manufacturing flexibility is no longer an issue.
I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Mexico built Ford. I've looked over my brother's '10 Fusion Sport and the fit-n-finish and the panel gap alignment is far better than my wife's uaw built '11 Taurus. It looks like it was just slapped together by a bunch of drunks. Oh wait......
I find the above statement hard-to-believe.
This ain't the '70's. I've got to believe that the manufacturers have, for years, engineered the assembly of cars coming down the line to go together one way...the easiest and cheapest. It fits or it doesn't. If you expect anyone to believe that Ford engineered their most-expensive car line to be able to be assembled sloppier than their next line down, well...what can I say. Sounds like a bit of 'Stockholm Syndrome' to me, for whatever reason.
I will never buy a car assembled in Mexico.
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This ain't the '70's. I've got to believe that the manufacturers have, for years, engineered the assembly of cars coming down the line to go together one way...the easiest and cheapest. It fits or it doesn't. If you expect anyone to believe that Ford engineered their most-expensive car line to be able to be assembled sloppier than their next line down, well...what can I say. Sounds like a bit of 'Stockholm Syndrome' to me, for whatever reason.
I still see a lot of variance in cars, and IMO, orange peel is worse than ever. However, I think the problem is that today's paintjobs are so thick and deep, that it could make the orange peel worse. And often it just depends on how the light catches it.
Oddly enough, at the DC auto show in 2010, some of the nicest, smoothest paint-jobs I noticed were on the Chrysler products! It made me wonder if those things were buffed out and prepped specifically for the auto show.
As for body panel alignment, I think the gaps on today's cars are probably so tight, that it makes you notice every little flaw. On my '76 LeMans, I really don't notice any body panel fit issues, but then the gaps on the car are big enough to stick your finger through! My '79 5th Ave has one door that's aligned so badly, though, that one day my legally-blind (macular degeneration; she can see basic shapes and can still read if you write in blocky, 1-inch tall letters) grandmother asked me if there was something wrong with the car!
The other week I was at the gas station, and a fairly new, champagne-colored BMW 5-Series pulled up at the pump the next aisle over. The way the light was hitting it, the orange-peel was pretty noticeable. And I could tell that the door wasn't aligned properly, because of the way a crease in the door didn't quite match the crease on the fender. And the whole area where the fender swooped up to meet the A-pillar looked very clumsy.
I wonder if part of the problem is we're simply getting pickier, and getting a sharper eye for this kind of stuff, so we start noticing these things more and more, even if they are truly minor? Almost like watching a movie with special effects in it over and over again. You might not catch it the first time you watch it, but the next time around, your eye will start to pick it apart, and you'll start to notice what's real, what's a matte painting, miniature, computer-generated effect, etc.
Well I'm telling you that's how it is. I've not looked over other Tauruses to see if this is just an anomaly or not. When my wife and I picked up her Taurus 3 weeks ago, the misaligned panels jumped out at me immediately. Same thing inside the car, many of the multiple plastic pieces just don't line up very well. It is a fleet vehicle, so it is what it is. Overall I like the Taurus, but I am disappointed in the fit-n-finish.
There is a plastic piece that is in between the rear door and rear wheel well that probably sticks out an 1/8 inch and it appears perfectly flush on the other side. The doors aren't flush with each other and the chrome strip that runs along the top of the window sill on the doors is obviously off from the front door to the back. The hood on one side isn't flush with the front passenger side fender.
OTOH, my brother's Fusion is impressively assembled. Granted the sheet metal and interior aren't as stylish as the Taurus and the Fusion doesn't have the same type of creases in the sheet metal that will exaggerate alignment issues.
Still, every quality survey that I've seen shows the Fusion to be one of the most reliable cars you can buy in the US. More so than the Taurus.
I've had 3 cars built in Mexico. Two were good and one was awful.
I know these build quality issues happen. Not to long ago I read about a Toyota Venza and in the article they showed pictures of the interior pieces that were obviously off. So it does happen.
On my '76 LeMans, I really don't notice any body panel fit issues, but then the gaps on the car are big enough to stick your finger through
If a finger were to get shut in the Taurus, I'm guessing it would have to be sewed back on.
I still see a lot of variance in cars, and IMO, orange peel is worse than ever.
I've noticed that too. My uncle is a retired body repair man and he was a very accomplished painter. He told me changes in the paint due to EPA regs has made orange peel all but impossible to avoid during the spray process. To eliminate it you have to wet sand, not something that is likely to happen at a factory.
Still like anything that's assembled, they are built to a certain tolerance range. Some parts will line up dead on and some will be off a bit. The tighter the tolerance range, the less variation you should see in the end product.
Who knows, my brother's Fusion maybe only 1 of 10 that come off the line with good fit-n-finish. I will say, I like the Fusion better than the Taurus.
Having spent several hundred miles driving the Taurus I will confirm what Andre said a while back. The center console takes up way to much room. What feels tight and cozy when you initially get in the car, feels confining after an hour and I have no wiggle room to stretch out.
I'm not typically a Ford guy, but I like the looks of the Taurus...probably to me, the best of all Tauruses so far. I only sat in one at the auto show but not enough to get much of a feeling for roominess. I'm short (5'8") but pretty large around. I'm sounding like my father here, but maybe Ford should introduce a bench seat and column shift to give the impression of roominess. Not that you'd ever put a person in that center position, but also...I've never felt a center console compartment lid that felt as comfortable as a fold-down center armrest, either.
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I was looking at a Taurus in a parking lot the other day and I can see what you mean about the interior. Looking at it it looked kind of cool but I would think it would be pretty confining on a long trip. I'm not a big guy so maybe I'd be OK with it. I do like the Fusion better overall.
I had one Mexican car - my old 98 Sebring convertible. No build issues. Any problems I had with it were strictly design things and they weren't reliability related at all. Mostly it was designed as a mediocre car with nice amenities. For six months if the year it was a hoot with the best stereo I've likely had in a car (Infinity). The other six months it was an average coupe that was a little slow on the uptake.
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I have no doubt that a quality car can be built in Mexico...for me, it's more of a 'big picture' thing. As many say about not wanting to reward a car company that produces poor cars, I don't want to reward a car company by buying their product that's built in essentially a third-world country by people who couldn't even afford to own one. That's capitalism in the worst way IMHO...but then I'm a dinosaur I guess.
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I'm not typically a Ford guy, but I like the looks of the Taurus...probably to me, the best of all Tauruses so far.
No question about that. It's still a big car, but the center console is just to wide IMO. It does have an overall feeling of being solid and safe, I just wish there was a bit more room to move my legs around, I pretty much feel sandwiched between the center console and the door. The high belt line and high position of the center console add to that feeling. After being in the Taurus, I feel like I'm looking out of a fish bowl when I get in my Expedition. The belt line is so much lower and you can actually see out of it. My Expedition always made the GrandPrix feel old even though they were the same year, now the Taurus makes the Expe feel ancient. Funny how your opinion of what's good or bad is influenced by what you currently drive.
The Taurus drives nice, the base engine has plenty of power, and overall it feels solid, and the fuel economy is good considering it's a 4k lb car. Other than a few fit-n-finish issues it's a lot of car for a $26k MSRP, as it is a base SE model. It certainly doesn't feel like a base car, so I guess that's a good thing.
We were out to dinner the other night and as we were getting into the Taurus, a guy came out and asked us how we liked it and wanted to know what color it was. Then he said it was a beautiful car (I wouldn't go that far), but it's been a long time since we've had a car that someone complimented, particularly a company car.
It's probably not a fair comparison, but a Fusion Sport is more fun to drive. IMO it's a more engaging car from a drivers perspective (not to mention much lighter). I guess to be fair, I'd need to drive a higher trim level Taurus with more aggressive tires. Though I think the Fusion platform just offers better driving dynamics. The suspension of the Taurus is certainly taught enough and body control seems good (compared to what I'm used to anyway), but the steering response is a bit numb. Not bad, but it's just not as engaging as the Fusion. Though I do like the interior of the Taurus better, it does look pretty cool. But they are different cars for a different demographic. The Taurus is definitely a great highway cruiser.
In addition to that oversized, too-tall console, it looks to me like they might have used the seats to a smaller car in there. And with the way the corners are rounded off, it makes me wonder how thigh support is on longer trips? Although if there's enough range of motion in the power adjustments, it may not be too bad.
I get your point and agree with it to a large extent. For the most part I would rather buy Japanese than Mexican just on the point that at least a Japanese worker can buy what he builds. In the case of the Sebring it was just I wanted a convertible and could manage that one.
You may be a dinosaur but you're far from the last one.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
That pretty much looks exactly like my wife's Taurus except she doesn't have leather.
I find the seats comfortable, IMO, they are above average. I haven't noticed a lack of thigh support and lumbar support for me is very good. The arm rest over the center console storage is also very comfortable, but yeah, overall I think the center console is to high and to wide. There are also a few ergonomic issues, like the buttons for the trip computer etc up near the top of the center of the dash, they are not easy to reach. Also the remote mirror controls are all the way up by the mirror, it's also not easy to reach.
I guess it's hard to fault Ford completely. The previous Taurus/500 was pretty much function over style and now they sort of pulled a 180. My wife had an '06 500 and it was a very competent and room sedan. Just extremely boring inside and out. I'm still glad she was able to get a Taurus over something like an Impala, so I won't complain to much;)
Well the laborers that built my house can't afford one like mine, same with the guys that built my boat, or maybe even our camper. So I don't buy that logic. I doubt you see many new Mercedes in the hourly employees parking lot in Alabama.
I certainly would prefer to buy a vehicle that's built in the USA, but I'm not going to buy something I like less, just because it's built here vs. Mexico.
I wonder what the mix is on Suburbans that are built here vs. Mexico. Back when I bought mine and again when I was looking for a new one in '08, I never found one made in the US, they were all from Mexico. I did end up with a UAW made Expedition though;)
Point made, but I think you'd have to agree that comparing the guys who build Benzes in Alabama to Mexican workers building a lower-priced mid-sized sedan is not really comparing apples to apples.
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a bit of off-topic banter is fine, but we've kinda gone off the rails with the Taurus and "built in Mexico" conversation. Let's stick a little closer to GM, please. If there's not an existing discussion for the topic you want to discuss, please create one!
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Also, the Fusion doesn't really do anything for me, looks-wise. I much-prefer the Malibu--even with its Mitsubishi Diamante taillights. In profile, I think the Malibu is downright elegant...almost German-looking. And the mags all show it is reliable (gasp). Better powertrain warranty than the Ford too. I don't need to own the #1 choice of the magazine writers...I'd take looks (totally subjective, I know) and built in America, with a longer warranty, over a darling of some magazine writers 25 years younger than me.
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Let's be crystal clear here about this. Once money leaves the U.S., it's a job lost. Giving money to Canada is bad. Giving money to Mexico is bad. Giving money to China is bad. If it's not in the U.S., it's all the same. Gone is gone.
It's all the same. Every job you export overseas is hurting us at home and making us poorer. That's the real awful legacy of NAFTA. It's that it made us think that it's OK to ship jobs overseas/across the border.
People blather on and on about how patriotic and all they are and yet the idea of only buying stuff if it's made in the U.S.(assuming there is a choice of course) doesn't cross their minds. If you look at most other countries, it's ingrained in their culture to firmly reject outside products unless they are either superior or there is no local alternative.
Why this matters is because a typical auto plant in the U.S. takes roughly a *billion* dollars a year to run in terms of materials, power, salaries, transportation and upkeep, and so on. That's money that's going into the local economy and represents the majority of the car's sale price as well.
I won't buy a non-U.S. made vehicle (note I didn't say "domestic"). Make or brand isn't important, either. Supporting the workers is.
There are currently 107 models manufactured in the U.S. by 14 manufacturers. That's plenty to choose from, IMO.
EDIT - I found this - it appears to be an up-to-date list of what's still made in the U.S. GM and Ford are slipping, but still make some cars here still.
The extended powertrain warranty is a good area to debate. Once your past the 36k bumper to bumper what does it really cover. In my experience, nothing that normally breaks. Sure the major internal components are covered, but those rarely fail during the time of the warranty, even a 100k warranty. Yes, it would cover the transmission that failed in my Suburban, but not anything else that did.
My Expedition's coil pack and spark plug fiasco happened to me at 59k miles (still under the 60k powertrain warranty) it did nothing to help cover my $1,000 bill. Even if it was 100k like GM, it wouldn't have covered my HVAC module that failed, or the window motor. All of which were not cheap to repair.
My point is, I wouldn't choose one car or another over a warranty. If you really want good warranty coverage, you'll still have to pay extra for it.
As for the Fusion vs Malibu I'm sure it can be debated all day long. I haven't driven a Malibu, but I have driven a Saturn Aura XR 3.6. Based on that, I like the Fusion Sport much better. But that's still not an apples to apples comparison as the Aura is long gone. A base Fusion to a base Malibu is probably a toss up, that I'd actually have to drive a Malibu to determine. But I generally prefer how Fords drive vs. Chevy, but that's just my preference. I understand that some will have prefer GM for the same reasons I don't.
Well I know I really like the Fusion Sport and I would definitely buy that over any Malibu LTZ. I said that the base models may be a toss up because I haven't driven a 4cyl Fusion.
The longer GM powertrain warranty also covers wheel bearings. We can argue that it shouldn't happen, but I've had it happen before, and I know others that have, between 60K and 100K miles.
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We can argue that it shouldn't happen, but I've had it happen before, and I know others that have, between 60K and 100K miles.
Yeah it does happen. I've had wheel bearing go bad on two vehicles between 50-70k miles. I had a '98 Ford SVT contour that had the front bearing fail twice before 75k.
A good friend of mine had to have the front bearings replaced on his '08 Civic at 30k miles. So yeah it does happen.
I don't want to reward a car company by buying their product that's built in essentially a third-world country by people who couldn't even afford to own one. That's capitalism in the worst way
That goes against the way Henry Ford himself thought. He paid his workers well enough they could afford their own Model T.
That goes against the way Henry Ford hinself thought. He paid his workers well enough they could afford their own Model T.
That sounds nice, but that's not really why he did it. Ford had a horrible problem with turn over and having to hire so many employees all of the time was very expensive. It was still about containing costs.
I'd say the DTS has aged gracefully though an update would certainly be welcome.
Seems all of the newer cars are going to high belt lines and huge pillars. They don't seem to be as roomy.
Lincoln is still in limbo. I don't think the platform used for the MKS is good enough for a $50k+ car, it works for a Taurus but Lincoln better have something in the pipeline to make it relevant again.
I gotta say, a DTS will still turn my head, even though it's an older design. I like it better than anything out of Lincoln today.
I gotta admit, I'm enough of a throwback that I still like the Lincoln Town Car! But, that's not exactly cutting-edge anymore, and I think they're only doing them special-order these days, or to livery services and such. The Cadillac dealer I bought my Park Ave from has a 1999 Town Car with low miles. Here's a link. That $7993 price tag is a bit high for a 1999, but it does look like a nice car. And it has a sunroof! Almost makes me wish I was in the market for a car right now! :P
And I believe a column-shift and 'bench' is still available...to not have that annoying console to lean up against!
I didn't think the console in my Intrepid was too bad, but it also had fairly large seats, and the forward part of the console, where the shifter is, wasn't tall and obtrusive like it is in the new Taurus. However, my Park Ave with its split bench seat is a LOT more comfortable. It's a bigger, thicker, better-padded seat, and has a wider range of motion, so that might have more to do with it than the fact it's a bench versus bucket.
I liked that light green metallic they had a few years ago on them. Something you don't see all the time.
There's a fairly recent DTS that I see locally from time to time, in that green, and I think it's attractive looking. Probably too "loud" of a color for the typical luxury car buyer, though, so I imagine it wasn't very popular. I can't remember if it was the same shade of green they used on the Lucerne or not, but it seemed a bit more common on the Lucerne.
Henry also thought his employees loved him--saw him as taking care of them...which is why he was personally hurt and shocked when they voted to strike in the '30's.
Good luck with finding a CEO who gives a rat's a** about any employee today. And I'm a conservative who had no family members ever work in the auto industry.
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The Cruze is far better than the Cobalt but It does not make iot to the top of the charts because it is an also-ran from Europe. But it is a great start for GM to try and make one like that here in the USA without falling apart, weighing too much and costing more than the competition.
The garage where a Volt was being recharged burned to the ground..Sales will probably go up if customers realize that they could finally get caught up on their mortage payments by having a Volt in the garage..Puff----an your insurance company will pony up with a big check..
In summation, GM had a great week on the news front, but knowing them they will blame the installer at the assy plt for the steering wheel falling off and the wiring in the garage that fried the mighty Volt..
GM stock closed about near their all-time new low..
GM will undoubtily have a new president within the next few days, every 90 days someone else gets the privilege to command the troops, maybe somebody from the UAW.
Since the topic is GM is about GM News: I keep my GMC far away from my CR-V to eliminate cross-contamination. So far, the CR-V has been perfect while the GMC has had many visits to the ER. :lemon:
I don't want to reward a car company by buying their product that's built in essentially a third-world country by people who couldn't even afford to own one.
But you reward one that went down in history as the biggest failure in the USA car business?
Let's be scintillatingly crystal clear on this one: A lot less USA Auto jobs would have been lost had the idiots in charge of the companies and the Unions did not sell their souls for greed and profits at ALL COSTS in the last 40 years.
Sometimes, circlew, you gotta look at the big picture (i.e., who employs the most Americans and who utilizes the most U.S. suppliers). My GM's have been reliable. One thing that's crystal-clear to me from reading all the GM-bashing posts on this forum (even though it's a GM-news forum--do this many Toyota/Hyundai haters post so routinely on those forums? Somehow, I doubt it)--I, obviously, have dealt with better dealers than most people. My dealers, over the years and more than one, have done things for me outside of warranty without my pushing it and have done so cheerily most times. Apparently that isn't the norm.
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My dealers, over the years and more than one, have done things for me outside of warranty without my pushing it and have done so cheerily most times. Apparently that isn't the norm.
Exactly. It isn't the norm. If it was, the market share of GM would not look like this ( The Bigger Picture):
First of all, the Fusion isn't even a competitor to the Cruze. Well, its not suppose to be. The Fusion is a mid-size and Cruze is a small sedan. You should be thinking of the Focus. Thats the proper competition to the Cruze from Ford.
I guess I truly can't blame you for holding on to what used to be. I still remember the atrocities committed by the Germans and Japanese less than 70 years ago and have a hard time overlooking that. Some will say that we committed similar numbers and types of atrocities during the same period, but I don't think that's a very valid argument in most peoples' minds.
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On the graph, the last bullet is "what is" today. The vapor trail of the past has inbred metaphors that seem to still exist in GM today despite shedding the "bad debt". Need to shed more arrogance in the advertising, that's for sure. BS runs just as "deep" as the past.
I remain vigilant to remind the present peanut gallery that things need to continue to change before unbridled loyalty is shed on GM. They have started a path to "decent" products but the competition has a huge head start, afaic.
You're not alone. My GM vehicles and those of people I know have also been extremely reliable. A co-worker of mine still has his 1987 Chevrolet Caprice Classic as well as a 1991 Chevrolet Caprice Classic which is his daily driver. His wife has a new Impala and a three year-old Malibu. I know this guy - he's a tightwad who would squeeze a nickle until the buffalo craps. No way would he tolerate costly unreliable vehicles.
The EPA thinks it's mid-size. If it's compared versus the Focus, it's a close race. But compared to a Corolla, well, it's not even a fair game. GM and Ford have come a long way with their latest few vehicles and things are changing.
And, as for the comment on rewarding failure, well, considering the alternative of having most of the U.S. auto industry implode, I'd rather continue to bail out GM or whomever if it protects our long-term strategic interests.
Though, there should have been a "no off-shoring" clause in the deal.
Sometimes, circlew, you gotta look at the big picture (i.e., who employs the most Americans and who utilizes the most U.S. suppliers).
If you want to look at the big picture, then you should want to support a company that is sustainable. GM certainly was not in the early part of this decade. Time will tell if they will be for the future. But many of the competitors clearly are doing fine.
If it's not on this list, it's not manufactured/assembled in the U.S. This is what's critical, since money in workers pockets is what drives the middle class.
That's 117 models (with some trim repeats of course) and 14 manufacturers. The data is about 1 month old, so it's also valid for comparisons.
The big picture is that once heavy industry is gone, it's nearly impossible to rebuild at any cost (U.K. is a prime example). It has to be protected far beyond the normal level of typical retail chains and the like. Because if it hits the fan (and it will some day, it always does), we'll need that capacity.
If it's not on this list, it's not manufactured/assembled in the U.S.
I understand that. It's just that it doesn't tell us what is made in Japan, which was the original post. What Cruze competitors are made in Japan? Are any? I just don't know if that was a flippant comment with no basis, or there are actually models A, B, and C that are those Japanese made Cruze competitors.
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That's probably the biggest issue. I don't know how much has changed (if any) but it's been pretty well reported that Ford's most flexible plants are in other countries (Brazil comes to mind) and I have read Ford can't use the same process here in the states due to union rules. If that's true, then I don't blame Ford for building cars where they can build them anyway they see fit.
I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Mexico built Ford. I've looked over my brother's '10 Fusion Sport and the fit-n-finish and the panel gap alignment is far better than my wife's uaw built '11 Taurus. It looks like it was just slapped together by a bunch of drunks. Oh wait......
The Fusion is probably Ford's best built and most reliable car they currently offer.
I find the above statement hard-to-believe.
This ain't the '70's. I've got to believe that the manufacturers have, for years, engineered the assembly of cars coming down the line to go together one way...the easiest and cheapest. It fits or it doesn't. If you expect anyone to believe that Ford engineered their most-expensive car line to be able to be assembled sloppier than their next line down, well...what can I say. Sounds like a bit of 'Stockholm Syndrome' to me, for whatever reason.
I will never buy a car assembled in Mexico.
I still see a lot of variance in cars, and IMO, orange peel is worse than ever. However, I think the problem is that today's paintjobs are so thick and deep, that it could make the orange peel worse. And often it just depends on how the light catches it.
Oddly enough, at the DC auto show in 2010, some of the nicest, smoothest paint-jobs I noticed were on the Chrysler products! It made me wonder if those things were buffed out and prepped specifically for the auto show.
As for body panel alignment, I think the gaps on today's cars are probably so tight, that it makes you notice every little flaw. On my '76 LeMans, I really don't notice any body panel fit issues, but then the gaps on the car are big enough to stick your finger through! My '79 5th Ave has one door that's aligned so badly, though, that one day my legally-blind (macular degeneration; she can see basic shapes and can still read if you write in blocky, 1-inch tall letters) grandmother asked me if there was something wrong with the car!
The other week I was at the gas station, and a fairly new, champagne-colored BMW 5-Series pulled up at the pump the next aisle over. The way the light was hitting it, the orange-peel was pretty noticeable. And I could tell that the door wasn't aligned properly, because of the way a crease in the door didn't quite match the crease on the fender. And the whole area where the fender swooped up to meet the A-pillar looked very clumsy.
I wonder if part of the problem is we're simply getting pickier, and getting a sharper eye for this kind of stuff, so we start noticing these things more and more, even if they are truly minor? Almost like watching a movie with special effects in it over and over again. You might not catch it the first time you watch it, but the next time around, your eye will start to pick it apart, and you'll start to notice what's real, what's a matte painting, miniature, computer-generated effect, etc.
Well I'm telling you that's how it is. I've not looked over other Tauruses to see if this is just an anomaly or not. When my wife and I picked up her Taurus 3 weeks ago, the misaligned panels jumped out at me immediately. Same thing inside the car, many of the multiple plastic pieces just don't line up very well. It is a fleet vehicle, so it is what it is. Overall I like the Taurus, but I am disappointed in the fit-n-finish.
There is a plastic piece that is in between the rear door and rear wheel well that probably sticks out an 1/8 inch and it appears perfectly flush on the other side. The doors aren't flush with each other and the chrome strip that runs along the top of the window sill on the doors is obviously off from the front door to the back. The hood on one side isn't flush with the front passenger side fender.
OTOH, my brother's Fusion is impressively assembled. Granted the sheet metal and interior aren't as stylish as the Taurus and the Fusion doesn't have the same type of creases in the sheet metal that will exaggerate alignment issues.
Still, every quality survey that I've seen shows the Fusion to be one of the most reliable cars you can buy in the US. More so than the Taurus.
I've had 3 cars built in Mexico. Two were good and one was awful.
I know these build quality issues happen. Not to long ago I read about a Toyota Venza and in the article they showed pictures of the interior pieces that were obviously off. So it does happen.
If a finger were to get shut in the Taurus, I'm guessing it would have to be sewed back on.
I still see a lot of variance in cars, and IMO, orange peel is worse than ever.
I've noticed that too. My uncle is a retired body repair man and he was a very accomplished painter. He told me changes in the paint due to EPA regs has made orange peel all but impossible to avoid during the spray process. To eliminate it you have to wet sand, not something that is likely to happen at a factory.
Still like anything that's assembled, they are built to a certain tolerance range. Some parts will line up dead on and some will be off a bit. The tighter the tolerance range, the less variation you should see in the end product.
Who knows, my brother's Fusion maybe only 1 of 10 that come off the line with good fit-n-finish. I will say, I like the Fusion better than the Taurus.
Having spent several hundred miles driving the Taurus I will confirm what Andre said a while back. The center console takes up way to much room. What feels tight and cozy when you initially get in the car, feels confining after an hour and I have no wiggle room to stretch out.
I had one Mexican car - my old 98 Sebring convertible. No build issues. Any problems I had with it were strictly design things and they weren't reliability related at all. Mostly it was designed as a mediocre car with nice amenities. For six months if the year it was a hoot with the best stereo I've likely had in a car (Infinity). The other six months it was an average coupe that was a little slow on the uptake.
No question about that. It's still a big car, but the center console is just to wide IMO. It does have an overall feeling of being solid and safe, I just wish there was a bit more room to move my legs around, I pretty much feel sandwiched between the center console and the door. The high belt line and high position of the center console add to that feeling. After being in the Taurus, I feel like I'm looking out of a fish bowl when I get in my Expedition. The belt line is so much lower and you can actually see out of it. My Expedition always made the GrandPrix feel old even though they were the same year, now the Taurus makes the Expe feel ancient. Funny how your opinion of what's good or bad is influenced by what you currently drive.
The Taurus drives nice, the base engine has plenty of power, and overall it feels solid, and the fuel economy is good considering it's a 4k lb car. Other than a few fit-n-finish issues it's a lot of car for a $26k MSRP, as it is a base SE model. It certainly doesn't feel like a base car, so I guess that's a good thing.
We were out to dinner the other night and as we were getting into the Taurus, a guy came out and asked us how we liked it and wanted to know what color it was. Then he said it was a beautiful car (I wouldn't go that far), but it's been a long time since we've had a car that someone complimented, particularly a company car.
It's probably not a fair comparison, but a Fusion Sport is more fun to drive. IMO it's a more engaging car from a drivers perspective (not to mention much lighter). I guess to be fair, I'd need to drive a higher trim level Taurus with more aggressive tires. Though I think the Fusion platform just offers better driving dynamics. The suspension of the Taurus is certainly taught enough and body control seems good (compared to what I'm used to anyway), but the steering response is a bit numb. Not bad, but it's just not as engaging as the Fusion. Though I do like the interior of the Taurus better, it does look pretty cool. But they are different cars for a different demographic. The Taurus is definitely a great highway cruiser.
In addition to that oversized, too-tall console, it looks to me like they might have used the seats to a smaller car in there. And with the way the corners are rounded off, it makes me wonder how thigh support is on longer trips? Although if there's enough range of motion in the power adjustments, it may not be too bad.
You may be a dinosaur but you're far from the last one.
I find the seats comfortable, IMO, they are above average. I haven't noticed a lack of thigh support and lumbar support for me is very good. The arm rest over the center console storage is also very comfortable, but yeah, overall I think the center console is to high and to wide. There are also a few ergonomic issues, like the buttons for the trip computer etc up near the top of the center of the dash, they are not easy to reach. Also the remote mirror controls are all the way up by the mirror, it's also not easy to reach.
I guess it's hard to fault Ford completely. The previous Taurus/500 was pretty much function over style and now they sort of pulled a 180. My wife had an '06 500 and it was a very competent and room sedan. Just extremely boring inside and out. I'm still glad she was able to get a Taurus over something like an Impala, so I won't complain to much;)
Well the laborers that built my house can't afford one like mine, same with the guys that built my boat, or maybe even our camper. So I don't buy that logic. I doubt you see many new Mercedes in the hourly employees parking lot in Alabama.
I certainly would prefer to buy a vehicle that's built in the USA, but I'm not going to buy something I like less, just because it's built here vs. Mexico.
I wonder what the mix is on Suburbans that are built here vs. Mexico. Back when I bought mine and again when I was looking for a new one in '08, I never found one made in the US, they were all from Mexico. I did end up with a UAW made Expedition though;)
True.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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Let's be crystal clear here about this. Once money leaves the U.S., it's a job lost. Giving money to Canada is bad. Giving money to Mexico is bad. Giving money to China is bad. If it's not in the U.S., it's all the same. Gone is gone.
It's all the same. Every job you export overseas is hurting us at home and making us poorer. That's the real awful legacy of NAFTA. It's that it made us think that it's OK to ship jobs overseas/across the border.
People blather on and on about how patriotic and all they are and yet the idea of only buying stuff if it's made in the U.S.(assuming there is a choice of course) doesn't cross their minds. If you look at most other countries, it's ingrained in their culture to firmly reject outside products unless they are either superior or there is no local alternative.
Why this matters is because a typical auto plant in the U.S. takes roughly a *billion* dollars a year to run in terms of materials, power, salaries, transportation and upkeep, and so on. That's money that's going into the local economy and represents the majority of the car's sale price as well.
I won't buy a non-U.S. made vehicle (note I didn't say "domestic"). Make or brand isn't important, either. Supporting the workers is.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/06/19/automobiles/20090619-auto-plants-4- - .html
There are currently 107 models manufactured in the U.S. by 14 manufacturers. That's plenty to choose from, IMO.
EDIT - I found this - it appears to be an up-to-date list of what's still made in the U.S. GM and Ford are slipping, but still make some cars here still.
The extended powertrain warranty is a good area to debate. Once your past the 36k bumper to bumper what does it really cover. In my experience, nothing that normally breaks. Sure the major internal components are covered, but those rarely fail during the time of the warranty, even a 100k warranty. Yes, it would cover the transmission that failed in my Suburban, but not anything else that did.
My Expedition's coil pack and spark plug fiasco happened to me at 59k miles (still under the 60k powertrain warranty) it did nothing to help cover my $1,000 bill. Even if it was 100k like GM, it wouldn't have covered my HVAC module that failed, or the window motor. All of which were not cheap to repair.
My point is, I wouldn't choose one car or another over a warranty. If you really want good warranty coverage, you'll still have to pay extra for it.
As for the Fusion vs Malibu I'm sure it can be debated all day long. I haven't driven a Malibu, but I have driven a Saturn Aura XR 3.6. Based on that, I like the Fusion Sport much better. But that's still not an apples to apples comparison as the Aura is long gone. A base Fusion to a base Malibu is probably a toss up, that I'd actually have to drive a Malibu to determine. But I generally prefer how Fords drive vs. Chevy, but that's just my preference. I understand that some will have prefer GM for the same reasons I don't.
Well I know I really like the Fusion Sport and I would definitely buy that over any Malibu LTZ. I said that the base models may be a toss up because I haven't driven a 4cyl Fusion.
Yeah it does happen. I've had wheel bearing go bad on two vehicles between 50-70k miles. I had a '98 Ford SVT contour that had the front bearing fail twice before 75k.
A good friend of mine had to have the front bearings replaced on his '08 Civic at 30k miles. So yeah it does happen.
That goes against the way Henry Ford himself thought. He paid his workers well enough they could afford their own Model T.
That sounds nice, but that's not really why he did it. Ford had a horrible problem with turn over and having to hire so many employees all of the time was very expensive. It was still about containing costs.
And I believe a column-shift and 'bench' is still available...to not have that annoying console to lean up against!
I liked that light green metallic they had a few years ago on them. Something you don't see all the time.
Seems all of the newer cars are going to high belt lines and huge pillars. They don't seem to be as roomy.
Lincoln is still in limbo. I don't think the platform used for the MKS is good enough for a $50k+ car, it works for a Taurus but Lincoln better have something in the pipeline to make it relevant again.
I gotta admit, I'm enough of a throwback that I still like the Lincoln Town Car! But, that's not exactly cutting-edge anymore, and I think they're only doing them special-order these days, or to livery services and such. The Cadillac dealer I bought my Park Ave from has a 1999 Town Car with low miles. Here's a link.
That $7993 price tag is a bit high for a 1999, but it does look like a nice car. And it has a sunroof! Almost makes me wish I was in the market for a car right now! :P
And I believe a column-shift and 'bench' is still available...to not have that annoying console to lean up against!
I didn't think the console in my Intrepid was too bad, but it also had fairly large seats, and the forward part of the console, where the shifter is, wasn't tall and obtrusive like it is in the new Taurus. However, my Park Ave with its split bench seat is a LOT more comfortable. It's a bigger, thicker, better-padded seat, and has a wider range of motion, so that might have more to do with it than the fact it's a bench versus bucket.
I liked that light green metallic they had a few years ago on them. Something you don't see all the time.
There's a fairly recent DTS that I see locally from time to time, in that green, and I think it's attractive looking. Probably too "loud" of a color for the typical luxury car buyer, though, so I imagine it wasn't very popular. I can't remember if it was the same shade of green they used on the Lucerne or not, but it seemed a bit more common on the Lucerne.
Good luck with finding a CEO who gives a rat's a** about any employee today. And I'm a conservative who had no family members ever work in the auto industry.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
But it still looks like an Elantra....ugh.
In summation, GM had a great week on the news front, but knowing them they will blame the installer at the assy plt for the steering wheel falling off and the wiring in the garage that fried the mighty Volt..
GM stock closed about near their all-time new low..
GM will undoubtily have a new president within the next few days, every 90 days someone else gets the privilege to command the troops, maybe somebody from the UAW.
Regards,
OW
Ditto: No problems in the CR-V and many with the GMC.
Regards,
OW
But you reward one that went down in history as the biggest failure in the USA car business?
Not me anymore, that's for sure.
Regards,
OW
Please do not forget.
Regards,
OW
Exactly. It isn't the norm. If it was, the market share of GM would not look like this ( The Bigger Picture):
Regards,
OW
I remain vigilant to remind the present peanut gallery that things need to continue to change before unbridled loyalty is shed on GM. They have started a path to "decent" products but the competition has a huge head start, afaic.
Regards,
OW
And, as for the comment on rewarding failure, well, considering the alternative of having most of the U.S. auto industry implode, I'd rather continue to bail out GM or whomever if it protects our long-term strategic interests.
Though, there should have been a "no off-shoring" clause in the deal.
If you want to look at the big picture, then you should want to support a company that is sustainable. GM certainly was not in the early part of this decade. Time will tell if they will be for the future. But many of the competitors clearly are doing fine.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/06/19/automobiles/20090619-auto-plants-4- .html
That's 117 models (with some trim repeats of course) and 14 manufacturers. The data is about 1 month old, so it's also valid for comparisons.
The big picture is that once heavy industry is gone, it's nearly impossible to rebuild at any cost (U.K. is a prime example). It has to be protected far beyond the normal level of typical retail chains and the like. Because if it hits the fan (and it will some day, it always does), we'll need that capacity.
I understand that. It's just that it doesn't tell us what is made in Japan, which was the original post. What Cruze competitors are made in Japan? Are any? I just don't know if that was a flippant comment with no basis, or there are actually models A, B, and C that are those Japanese made Cruze competitors.