Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
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Hyundai is the only company that I know of that does this sort of B.S. (note that the original warranty drops as well - only the drivetrain partially transfers) It looks great on the ads, but it's paper-thin once it comes time to find a deal. The only way to get around this is to pay for the dealer's gouging for it to be certified. That leaves a bad taste in my mouth, to be honest. This amounts to a $1-2K surcharge "transfer fee" for the warranty.
GM charges.. oh right, you don't need for it to be certified to keep the original warranty. That's $0 - go find one, even an ex-rental if you are brave enough.
Now, to be sure, Hyundai is great if you are the original owner (and can stand to own it for ten whole years) , but I'd never buy one used.
Perhaps that's the point. They want to encourage new sales.
I only CARE if I get a warranty. I'm not going to buy a car just because I can sell it with a transferable warranty. I want a car I WANT To buy, which means I want the car, which means I'll keep it. And if it's worth selling, it'll have high resale value whether it has a warranty or not (i.e. reason why I sold my 2003 Honda Accord LX V6 Coupe). I loved the high resale value and the buyer gave more credence to the car than to a non-existant GM-type transferable warranty.
Smart people don't want a warranty, they want a car that doesn't NEED a warranty. ONe that never needs to be sent back for warranty repairs and claims.
Sounds like Honda advertising. Take it over to the Odyssey transmission problems or the Accord VCM problems dicussion. They'll want to hear that about now.
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f0fa11e/1854
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.f169a0d/2577
Go tell them how wonderful Honda's quality is compared to other cars... :P
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It is better to have a warranty when the brand handle's it very poorly, or no warranty when the brand actually acts like it cares for its customers? :P :shades:
Perhaps that is how they can afford to offer that long warranty since very few original owners actually keep their car that long. Do you really think their vehicles can be that superior to other makes? I sure don't!
Off the top of my head, I only know one person who's had a Hyundai for a really long time. Mom of one of my friends has an '02 or so Hyundai Sonata. She bought it used in 2003 or 2004, and still has it. I've known a few other people who have had Hyundais, but they lost them in accidents. Evidently, they're pretty easy to total.
Myself, I don't care so much about warranties. In my experience it just means you're more likely to end up at the dealer for something the warranty won't cover.
When I was shopping for SUVs a couple of years ago, length of warranty wasn't even a consideration. I'm going to buy what best fits my needs. Just give me the best price and skip the extra warranty. No matter the manufacturer, it costs more to cover a vehicle for a longer period.
Like I've previously mentioned, the powertrain warranty on my Expedition didn't do me any good even though I've had issues while it was still under warranty. It didn't keep me from spending $1,500 at the dealer last year for repairs.
Regards,
OW
All I can think of about GM is failure particularly sitting in my garage.
Regards,
OW
GM replaced a transmission PCM, repaired a non-working horn, and replaced a leaky steering rack, at 79K miles for me last year, with no extended warranty ever purchased by me, for free. This is around $2K of work. No charge. Conversely, a friend's Honda Odyssey, same model year (2005), needed a trans replacement and $1,800 charge to him was their offer. Who's better about warranties?
Nice, I've never had that kind of experience with Ford or GM, it's always we see this problem all of the time and the bill will be $1k+, thank you.
I'd still prefer an Odyssey over any GM or Ford minivan, even if I had to pay a few grand here or there to maintain it. There is a reason GM doesn't sell minivan's anymore. Make desirable product and it will sell regardless. Chrysler has proven that with their vans for 30 years. They had some notoriously bad problems over the years and they still can sell them. Why? Because the design and features were far beyond a Ford or GM minivan.
And that car is a BUICK! My wife had her LaCrosse for over 6 years with no need for a warranty repair or any unscheduled maintenance in all that time.
Come to think of it, I've had no issues with my Cadillacs either.
Funny, that's pretty much what I'd say about most GM products I've had in my garage and have driven from time to time.
Regarding Hyundai, my dad (I don't know why) bought my sister a brand new '92 Hyundai Scoupe when she was 16. That little car actually lasted until she graduated from college and 120k until the trans died and overall it was just as reliable as any domestic I've had. Keep in mind anything that could handle my sisters abuse and lack of maintenance for that long is impressive. When she went away to college it was lucky to get an oil change once a year.
Nothing wrong with that. I do the same. I certainly wouldn't be driving an Expedition if I was out to buy the best full-size SUV. I bought it because it fit my needs and was cheaper than everything I was looking at.
I'm sure a dealer that's on your side can only help when it comes to warranty issues.
You've hit on the key. The dealer is usually everything. The local Honda dealer was great with stuff you bought from them and would go to bat for you if there was an issue. A little less so if you didn't. The Ford dealer, who is now part of the same group, was useless.
Of course I have to say that corporate Honda always tried to resolve issues while corporate Ford did squat. Truth in posting: both refer to things that happened almost 10 years ago. YMMV
Well, the question is not two anecdotal examples, but for the bulk of the population. You're a salesman, right? I wonder if you get better treatment when the dealership knows you. Conversely, I've read many examples of Honda stepping up to the plate, especially when they had the big tranny problems with the '03-'04 Odys. I don't have evidence either way, it's just what I've read on these forums.
Oh, and I'll also say that I've had a Honda, an Acura, a Mercury Villager, and even a VW go way beyond 100K each and I've NEVER had any transmission problems, or spent that kind of money on anything at under 100K miles.
Now, if these vehicles weren't essentially cream-puffs / almost trailer queens but down & dirty DDs then you'd have something but you can't compare their reliability to my GM DD past / present woes, OW's issues, or to anyone elses.
I mean, I can say my Olds is hella reliable but that wouldn't be comparable since I may put 500 miles on it during a heavily-driven summer (~ Memorial Day to mid-October). 300 ~ 350mi is the norm & it's 95% perfecto days.
Not giving you gruff but if I use that logic I had 5 GMs / Mercury and a Datsun / Nissan turbo that were extremely reliable - and they were FAR from it :sick: .
Kudos to the LaCrosse.
Well, the one car I didn't mention was my Audi. It started having hard-to-diagnose cooling problems just out of warranty at around 60K and I probably put around $1500 into that. One reason why I got rid of it earlier (88k) than I have any other car.
We currently have an '04 Ody (71K miles), the previously mentioned '05 Acura TL (106K miles), and an '07 Mazda 5 (68K miles) and nothing of significance has gone wrong with any of these yet.
I think a lot of the perception of older GM cars comes not from the reliability (although I know that was a problem some of the time) but from the relative crudeness of the vehicles, especially the smaller cars. While the Buicks might have been nice large cars with good reliability, the smaller, more entry-level vehicles that kids in their teens and 20's would typically buy were not very competitive. So as an example the Cavalier might have been reliable, but compared to the competition of the day they were petty bad. Obviously and especially with the Cruze, we have a GM smaller car that is the best they've ever done and really nice inside. I haven't driven one, though.
Case in point - I was helping my mom find a new car this last fall. We had it narrowed down to a TSX, a CTS, and a Mercedes C350 Sport. To be honest, it was too close to call but the CTS won out because of the rear wheel drive and decent reliability.
Most of the rest of the stuff just didn't compare. But that's just one model. GM really is a case of each and every make and model being a completely different vehicle in terms of the interior, looks, and features. Some are gorgeous. Others are complete rental toads.
Gas pricing and the economy are really not on side of GM and if the quirky energy policies remain in place then maybe GM stock will be $20...
Somebody mentioned the "freebies" passed out after warranty has expired.. my examples, 91 Cadillac Touring Sedan, new engine at 59k miles, ongoing "piston slap" problem..next one 96 Caddy Deville, 55k, 4 new chrome wheels due to paint inserts chipping..my 99 Caddy never hit the out of warranty status...All Caddys were driven by wife.
I've owned a Jetta GLS TDI and I really like it. I only kept it a little over a year, but it was a great car. My BIL bought a Jetta GLS 4cyl gas at the same time. He kept his about 3 years and 60k. Never had any trouble with it. He traded it that in on a Passat GLS which he also kept about 3 years and put 60k on it w/o any trouble. My uncle is still driving his '00 Passat GLX v6 with a manual trans. He's got about 180k on it. I know he's had trouble with it from time to time but last I talked to him he loved it. He claims it still drive's better and is much tighter than my aunt's '05 Taurus with 1/4 the miles on it.
People are still switching over to foreign cars. My dad bought his first Honda in '09 after always owning Fords. He loves his Accord Ex-L v6. It's the first car he's ever owned that hasn't needed a repair prior to 60k miles. Yes he had the rear brake pads replaced. He doesn't care, as it didn't cost much to replace the pads.
My inlaws purchased their first foreign car in '05, a Camry XLE V6. My MIL is now pushing 140k on it w/o any repairs, it doesn't leak, squeak, or burn any oil. She drives it into downtown Chicago every day from Indiana. I drove it briefly last weekend (it's not my type of car), but it's still vault tight. The Saturn my MIL used on the same commute fell apart within 3 years. It was a complete rattle trap by 50k, leaked trans fluid, and burned oil. She'll probably never buy another domestic now that she loves her Toyota.
When she was shopping for a car back in '05, I tried to get her to test drive a Lacrosse. She basically said "no way, I don't want an old man car". She wouldn't even look at it. The Malibu was butt ugly at the time, so I said drive a Camry. I figured it's not exciting but it will be reliable and it certainly has. Though I will say the Camry is a boring car, but man is that 3.0 v6 smooth and responsive. I think if I could just take the powertrain out of a Toyota and put it in other manufacturers vehicles, I would in a heartbeat.
I always wanted something that was fun to drive, if it didn't have a manual trans, I wanted no part of it. My wife and I never owned a car with an automatic transmission until she was pregnant and traded her Probe for a minivan (I know, I know), a baby car seat and the rear seat of a Probe don't mix. Just different tastes.
I still drove manual trans cars until I needed a tow vehicle and started buying SUVs.
At age 35 (my wife was 28) we bought a new '93 Caprice Classic, base model with F41 suspension. Lemko, we're not all that much different!
You're dealing in 'maybes'. I posted the reality of my situation and my coworker's. Not to mention, my vehicle was still fully functional. His wouldn't shift.
Best car that GM produced, afaic. All the rest have been second rate. :mad:
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
It fits with the margin of error in the design specs. What they didn't count on was how fat Americans are and how much crap they haul around.
It fits with the margin of error in the design specs. What they didn't count on was how fat Americans are and how much crap they haul around.
Do you have anywhere we can read about this? I'd like to get more background on it.
Me, neither...until the Uplander. I'm glad GM stepped up to the plate for me.
But it is common knowledge amongst transmission re-builders. It's the same reason that we had those Toyota sludge problems. Consumers in Japan are anal about oil changes and replace their entire engines every 6-8 years at a maximum to pass smog rules that make CARB look like a joke. They didn't factor in enough "American" factor into the equation. People used recycled oil and didn't change for 10K miles, and the engine failed.
GM and Ford know this, of course, and design for a lot more abuse. It's not elegant, as a result, but it is tough.
edit - I've also noticed this over the years with European cars as well. They are beautiful but are made to be treated like a fine tool to be put back in its case instead of being used then thrown back in the toolbox with the other 20lbs of junk in it and then rattled around in the back of your truck bed.
I am curious about this part: "People used recycled oil and didn't change for 10K miles, and the engine failed. "
Do you have any data that it's still the peoples' fault, which was toyota's responses--blaming the users. The oil change intervals were 7500 or 10,000 recommended by their service periods, but it was the people's fault?
Were people using recycled oil? Some of the people were getting their oil changes at their toyota dealerships.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
But it is common knowledge amongst transmission re-builders. It's the same reason that we had those Toyota sludge problems
You cite Japanese and European makers like this is some sort of foreign vehicle negligence. Yet I don't see the mention of piston slap, Dex-cool, Windstar transmissions, and lord knows how many other US nameplate issues that carried on due to poor engineering and quality. It is not unique to import nameplates that certain vehicles have weaknesses. In fact, it was traditionally more common with US nameplates.
Then again, you can drive around with 300lbs of tools in the trunk of a Buick and really suffer no long-term issues. I'd not want to try that with an E Class. Or say, a G37.
It's kind of really two worlds out there. The typical yuppie or commuter who just uses their car with 1-2 people in it and drives fairly conservatively. Almost anything will work for them. But the numbers change when you try to stuff 6-8 people in the thing every day or use it to haul tools around and so on. GM and Ford seem to have a bit more of this type of "use" in mind. So while things aren't more reliable, necessarily, they can handle improper use a bit easier.
As for the Toyota issue (responding to a previous poster), the fact is that there are no chains in Japan that use recycled oil. Quite a few dealers as well as almost every last oil change chain in the U.S., though, uses recycled oil to save money. Unless you specifically ask for new oil and pay a surcharge, that is. 99%+ of the time, there's zero issue with this practice, either. But recycled conventional oil does have less resistance to creating sludge and deposits than new oil.
Toyota just didn't design that engine with the combination of recycled oil and extra neglect in mind.
Not really, that's the perception not the rule nor fact, especially nowadays. A Caddy bumper will damage just as easily as a Chevrolet's or a Poncho's or Olds (R.I.P to both).
In the beginning, yes, you could possibly say that but I'm talking long, long ago, even before some of us were born. The Caddy and Buford may use a higher grade of vinyl or leather (just slightly at that) but the switch gear, engine / trans, suspension and other gear - the same across the board. And let's not get into the rebadges...
Also what you need to look at is the buyer demographics. From my experiences, inside and out the industry, the majority of those buyers are older, past their "burn rubber every chance they get, neutral drops, in a rush to get everywhere" years, and are more prone to easy driving, keep up on the maintenance, cream-puff driving kind of crowd. Yes, there are exceptions, i.e., the reasoning beyond the V-series Caddy's and perhaps the new Regal Turbo. But the main two are the maintenance and driving style; most are from the old school who keep up on maintenance, so any little thing that happens, it's into the dealership & dealership only. Then the driving style, they're not driving everyday in hectic stop-n-go, tailgate happy traffic.
Using your mom's case, I would've taken a CTS too, albeit a used one. The Merc is too expensive for what you get; the new TSX is just ugly to me; the CTS is decent enough, but doesn't interest me enough to make a note on.
What I'm saying is you can't apples - apples compare the reliabilty of a vehicle that's driven a number of miles every day, day in / out to one that's not driven for weeks or months at a time, and even then only in great weather. My point was a vehicle that's driven the average miles of 12 ~ 15K / year in all types of weather & road conditions w/o any major issues for years & years bodes better in being called "reliable" versus a vehicle that's driven a few hundred or thousand miles a year, only in nice weather, and gingerly. It's like it stood the test of time, and maybe abuse, and keeps going, like a gen I SBC, the later Buick 3.8 V6s. Reliable engines, now some of the vehicles they were placed in... :confuse:
For me, reliability is way more than it just starting & running every blue moon it's driven. Reliability is durability, initial & long-term build quality, standing up to its working environment, longevity, performance (does it meet the stated goals as advertised)...it's just many things to me.
I've been in the industry too long... :sick:
Now that flat out has me ROTFLMAO!! Are you for real? 300lbs of tools in the trunk will cause a foreign vehicle to wear out faster than a domestic? Please pass me what your smoking. So does that mean a foreign car is only good for the driver and all passengers risk breaking the car? Maybe your on to something. When my FIL drives 200 miles to visit in his Tahoe, he always carries a bunch of tools with him. When he comes down in my MIL's Camry, he doesn't carry as much as screw driver. I asked him why that was once, and he said he doesn't worry about needing the tools for it.
Back to reality... I've owned one Japanese vehicle. It was an 01 Nissan Pathfinder LE. It had a 5klb tow rating. I towed a 4,500lb boat with it for at least 20k of the 60k miles I put on it over 4 years. I towed the boat to Florida from Ohio, to Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma etc. in temps over 110 degrees with the A/C on and still comfortably pulled 70 mph plus all day long. No problems.
I replaced that with a Suburban and pulled the same boat in the same environment. The trans fried on it at 45k miles and the rear diff made lots of gear whining noises after about 30k, rear stabilizer links broke by 50k. Not to mention the Suburban literally shook itself apart on washboard surfaces on the dirt roads in Kansas that I could drive the Pathfinder down at 50 mph w/o issue. So much for the supposedly heavier duty Suburban being able to take more abuse.
Ford and GM have had so many different build quality and design issues over the years, I can't possibly list them all here. And you don't have to go back far to find them.
Example. I've been burned by Ford with my 07 Expedition regarding the poorly designed spark plugs that I had to pay $1k to have extracted and replaced as 1/2 of them broke off in the head. This was at 59k miles, God only knows how bad it will be for the poor guy who waits to 100k to try to pull them out.
Or how about the cam phaser issue Ford has on the 3v OHC 5.4 v8. I hope mine doesn't have that issue because from what I've heard it's a $1,500 repair per cam. From what I've read, using the incorrect OIL is a major contributor to the problem.
Thanks for responding. I wondered if oil is recycled into "new" oil and that was what you meant or if people knowingly recycle oil, somewhat akin to stores recycling "Bad Ethyl (glycol)" antifreezes by putting in additives and pumping it back in at charge.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Fixed it for ya! :shades: