No worries, I appreciate your frugality as it has served you well.
The point would be that considering the rise out of the C-11 ashes, GM still trails. Ford actually is the leading U.S. manufacturer in a variety of areas.
GM's biggest goal for 2012 -- and beyond There's no doubt that every manager at GM has a long to-do list, but it's fair to say that most of those tasks boil down to this: improving margins. GM may be solidly profitable, but at around 6%, its margins are significantly thinner than those of rivals Volkswagen (OTC: VLKAY.PK) and Hyundai (OTC: HYMTF.PK) -- and even Ford (NYSE: F ) , at least through the first three quarters of 2011.
That shouldn't surprise longtime General Motors watchers: Pre-bankruptcy GM was the poster child for corporate bloat. Wildly inefficient internal processes, ineffective financial controls, labor contracts that didn't reflect the current competitive reality, duplicative and overlapping models, and a production base that hadn't shrunk with GM's long-declining market share all added up to a company that spent far more than it should have and got mediocre products and sales results in return.
Ford's operating margin was 6.7% for the first three quarters of 2011, according to Bloomberg. That's not bad as automakers go -- it's ahead of General Motors'
I was quoting from the article, BTW. Those were not my words.
Common sense tells me the spindle is the same, though, because both groups of owners complained about the same problem. They probably revise springs rates and use HD shocks and different wheels, though.
Common sense tells me the spindle is the same, though, because both groups of owners complained about the same problem. They probably revise springs rates and use HD shocks and different wheels, though.
I'm certain the spring rates and shocks are different, but typically TSB's are made as a result of a number of field complaints. My guess is that field complaints as a percentage of police car sales are higher than that of the non-police cars, which makes me wonder about the part number, although I have no idea either way.
But to say that GM doesn't "like to honor warranties"....what is that based on, in the article linked? Geeze, I guess anybody say anything online, but I've not heard one thing that points to that reality in my world or those around me.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Premature Engine Failures in Mazda 6, CX-7, and RX-8, Subaru 2.5L, Honda Civics, Toyota Tundras, Nissan 2.4L, numerous VW's and yes even BMW and Porsche!
Transmission failure in many Hondas, mostly Odyssey. CVT failure in Nissans and Audis.
Excessive oil consumption in Hondas, Toyotas, VW's Mazda and Nissan.
How about rust? Hyundai and Kia early 2000's subrame failure, Nissan Altima rusting floorboards, Mazda and Subaru Paint problems, not to mention the Toyota rusted truck frames.
Wow, if someone read your unbalanced post and didn't happen to know anything about cars or the history of them, and they had no clue about anyone's previous experiences with them (hermit recluse lifestyle), then they might be wondering how all these foriegn companies manage to stay in business right now.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Well, you must admit (it's OK to admit), that most comments on this board are anti-GM, and made again...and again...and again....by the same handful of people. I truly wonder if dave8697 and lemko continually bash on Toyota or Hyundai forums. I know I don't, because I don't feel compelled to even look there since I don't like their cars.
Speaking only personally, I don't care about the "Business Week" approach to car companies. I like reading about the product, current and 'classic', and how people are currently being treated in the product and by the dealers. I like discussion of the 'value' proponent. But that's me.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
All I can add is the trouble spots on the cars I've owned have generally matched the trouble areas indicated in CR.
Ditto that for the cars my family and I have owned. CR seems to know exactly what went wrong with all of my cars, without my having ever filled out a survey personally for them.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I don't need a magazine to tell me what the reliability/quality is on GM's 2003 BoF SUV's.
But isn't it somewhat comforting to see all those black circles on your money pit of choice and know that you are not alone in your misery and payments for repairs?
:P
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Of course, there will be sample error, it's inevitable; it seems like they don't take it into account though.
How do you know the sample error is always to GM's disfavor? Maybe the middle year is the one without sample error and the year before and after is the incorrect sample error filled anomoly. I have a feeling most sample error would be to favor a car company. Seems most magazines err on the side of being positive about a car company. I like that CR doesn't do that. The data is the data, and it is true and real. Perhaps some workers had a bout of alcoholism that spiked in that middle year?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Perhaps some workers had a bout of alcoholism that spiked in that middle year?
It's not that - it's that nowadays they are spreading out the intro of new engines and transmissions mid-cycle, to keep products fresh.
The Lambda SUVs launched without DI. The DI engine came a year later.
Heck, the Cruze ECO already got transmission updates, in only its 2nd model year.
Chrysler launched the Pentastar on some older models, like the Grand Caravan. Some of the 6 speed automatics will be replaced with 8 speeds as a running change. Continuous improvement.
Ford is putting EcoBoost in more and more models, mostly existing ones, not new cars. Good example:
My brother bought a 2006 Nissan Altima from a used car dealer for $8K. A month later it needed a new engine at 80,000 miles.
That's the risk you take in buying a used car that you don't know what has happened to it (afterall, the previous owner abandoned it for some reason!). It is a gamble and a crapshoot, with greater risk than a new car purchase. I would hope a mechanic would be able to spot a car that was on the brink of engine failure.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Saving $10,000 to get a Sonic instead of a Focus ST is all fine and dandy. But what if I'm willing to pay Chevy 10,000 dollars more to get me something with comparable or better performance than the Focus ST?
What is a potential customer to do?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
For me all the Focus ST needs is AWD. I'm not sure 250hp pulling the front wheels is going to feel very balanced.
250+ HP in my Audi A3 currently with FrontTrack FWD, and it handles and balances nicely. S3 intercooler, Stage 2 software from Unitronics, and Exhaust upgrades easily get me over the 250 HP mark. Of course, Audi's FWD is probably light years more sophisticated than Ford's, but torque steer has never been an issue for me.
I know VW/Audi has an assortment of ABC's, XYZ's and electronically controlled differentials to assist in this process for the GTI's/A3's.
All that being said, I'd prefer to have AWD in a 250 HP+ vehicle. I think 300 HP is where you REALLY need the AWD.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I want a Camaro around 3,000 lbs, not 4,000 lbs. I guess I'll have to upgrade to the Corvette, and at $25,000, that means getting risky with an old one.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I do believe that our federal gov't, in cooperation with the President, Congress, and the Senate, should pass a law requiring all members of Congress, the Senate, and the Executive branch who voted for the bailouts to buy GM stock at a price of $52/share from their own life savings in order to spare the taxpayers from the losses incurred for their incompetent decision making!
Here here!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Excellent idea! Too bad their pittance wouldn't even blemish the $16B loss projected.
To start, do you know what federal politician and Cabinet members actually earn every year? Here is a breakdown:
• Congress Members (Representatives and Senators): $174,000 • Senate and House Majority/Minority Leaders: $193,400 • Cabinet Members: $199,700 • Speaker of the House: $223,500 • Vice President: $230,700 • President: $400,000M
Perhaps they COULD buy a Volt or Corvette, however!
I'd add that they probably get more serious maintenance by the service garage. And the techs there know what things to check for whatever reason and they are finding the wear.
I truly wonder if dave8697 and lemko continually bash on Toyota or Hyundai forums
Not those but certainly others do, notably xlu.
There were tasteless posts just after the tsunami that the hosts even had to delete.
It happens in every thread, import and domestic.
Perhaps there are more posts here because GM is the biggest US car manufacturer and has been substandard for a long time. Perhaps we love this country and everybody here wants GM to be excellent. But some of us present this by saying how they had x GM car and it was a good value, or reliable, etc. ---- while others are like tough parent who want to vent their tough love --- "mediocre is NOT good enough"; "GM needs to do better", etc.
For me, having never owned a GM car, it started with my college friend's brand new Vega. Then my SIL's Citation. Then my inability to find a decent smaller car to buy from GM. And finally my tax dollars, more than 30 YEARS after the Vega, going to bail out this behemoth failure. So I have a vested interest in them getting it G*D D@MN RIGHT this time!
> I like reading about the product, current and 'classic', and how people are currently being treated in the product and by the dealers.
The title of this topic was changed from a previous form years back by KarenS IIRC to the current topic to make the Anti-GM rants not fit. The continual repetition about long gone problems with the old GM certainly don't fit. The hosts can control the repetition as well as the timeliness of posts to make the discussion one worth reading rather than a rehash. We haven't heard anyone with a recent problem with their Tahoe, e.g. That's the logic used to squash mentions of sludge (or gel or whatever PR term was used by the anonymous car company) in a certain forum.
It's nice for folks to have a catharsis vehicle so they can feel better. But the forum certainly could be much more interesting with a new "feel."
The title of Post 1 is about the same as the current title (just tweaked a bit for SEO purposes). So I don't know what you are thinking.
We have the GM Fans discussion for nothing but good news, but there's few "Pollyanna" discussions around here. Human nature being what it is, people don't seem to enjoy yakking about anything but problems. And it's not exactly newsworthy to post that you drove all year with nothing but an oil change needing to be done.
People have long memories - ask me about the '74 Volvos that stranded me and that'll tell you why I never considered buying one. ~35 years and I still don't trust them. And I post about that now and then too.
And as a reminder, we're talking about General Motors, not other posters.
I don't care that it's based on an Opel so much as I don't like the styling at all.
Reminds me of, although better-looking than, that abomination called the Juke, which was recalled last week along with another Nissan model and the Cadillac SRX.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Nobody's looking for a fanboy discussion, but I'd sure rather read about somebody having an issue with their current GM (fill in the blank) or dealer here, and how it was remedied, then reading about somebody's crappy whatever--some are still talking about never owning a GM but remembering their friend's car from 37 years ago. Last week somebody posted in response to my mention of a Lexus SC400, that they never sat in/rode in/drove one, but "...they were much-better built than (fill in the blank GM and Ford product)".
Wow, that's pretty reliable data.
Again, if in my 'yout' I heard some guy saying "I never owned a Ford but my friend's '32 Model A stunk, so I won't even consider a '69 LTD", I'd consider the guy a strange old crank.
I wonder if any Koreans are posting in the Hyundai forum about how they hate government money going towards Hyundai. Somehow I think I already know the answer.
BTW, on Automobile's website, the article that caused so much debate and consternation a couple weeks ago, is posted....about the Sonata.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
August 1991 The SC 300 is introduced. Lexus sweeps the J.D. Power and Associates studiestopping the Customer Satisfaction StudySM as the #1 Carlinethe Initial Quality Study (IQS)SM as the Best Overall Carline, and the Sales Satisfaction StudySM as the Best Overall Carline,
July 1992 Lexus again tops the J.D. Power and Associates Customer Satisfaction StudySM as the #1 Carline, and the Sales Satisfaction StudySM as the Best Overall Carline.
To say "J.D. Edwards (whom many GM bashers pooh-pooh) say they were the best" is different from saying, flatly, "They are the best, although I've never sat in or ridden in one".
All I know, is it didn't look like $45K to me.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
People have long memories - ask me about the '74 Volvos that stranded me and that'll tell you why I never considered buying one. ~35 years and I still don't trust them. And I post about that now and then too.
Not sure I've heard you say that before, but I've sure heard the same old "I hate my GM (and/or) '95 Neon" story a zillion times here.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Per Automobile's website, the MSRP for a '12 Camaro coupe is $25,200, which gets you 300-plus horsepower, plus RWD which so many people seem to prefer these days.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Do you and the three or four regular bashers here, post regularly on those other forums?
I can only speak for myself - yes, I do follow those forums.
Most of the time playing the role of fact checker, making corrections left and right. Seems many people made up their minds about hating {insert brand name here} before the facts even come out.
You would be surprised, in fact I think there are more import bashers than GM bashers. I sorta play Devil's Advocate.
But even with the V6 and 6-speed manual trans, the weight is way above the 3,000 pound target posted. Just about 3,800, in fact... - Ray Happy with my 3,600 pound coupe...
I try not to harp on it because it's certainly illogical to hold a car grudge for decades.
We can disagree. If a poor pattern started decades ago but was only improved in the last 2-3 years, is that still illogical? Your nephew that was a child in trouble in grade school, a pothead in HS, started fights on the street, couldn't hold a job and was a drunk until he was 35 years old, and now has been working reliably for two years? Want him to watch your daughter for a weekend while you go to the mountains with the wife? :surprise:
And let's not mention that it's logical to hold grudges against WW II countries because there might be still a few people alive who were involved.
Do you really think that's the cause of that kind of anomaly in CR's reporting?
I think it's a possible logical cause for an anomaly in quality from one year to the next for any type of vehicle. Maybe not the full cause, but partially.
There is probably more than one cause, but I do not think that CR's data and reporting being inaccurate is one of them.
Perhaps a bean counter decided saving .10 cents per part was more important than reliability from one year to the next, then got overruled, and then reoverruled again with the faulty part being brought back into existance. There are a million reasons for quality that can go up and down, but I believe CR's data to be accurate.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I've been stranded by plenty of cars over the years (I think my Toyota Tercel was the last one that died on me), but it's only the Volvos that stick in my craw.
Comments
The point would be that considering the rise out of the C-11 ashes, GM still trails. Ford actually is the leading U.S. manufacturer in a variety of areas.
GM's biggest goal for 2012 -- and beyond
There's no doubt that every manager at GM has a long to-do list, but it's fair to say that most of those tasks boil down to this: improving margins. GM may be solidly profitable, but at around 6%, its margins are significantly thinner than those of rivals Volkswagen (OTC: VLKAY.PK) and Hyundai (OTC: HYMTF.PK) -- and even Ford (NYSE: F ) , at least through the first three quarters of 2011.
That shouldn't surprise longtime General Motors watchers: Pre-bankruptcy GM was the poster child for corporate bloat. Wildly inefficient internal processes, ineffective financial controls, labor contracts that didn't reflect the current competitive reality, duplicative and overlapping models, and a production base that hadn't shrunk with GM's long-declining market share all added up to a company that spent far more than it should have and got mediocre products and sales results in return.
Ford's operating margin was 6.7% for the first three quarters of 2011, according to Bloomberg. That's not bad as automakers go -- it's ahead of General Motors'
Regards,
OW
The reality is both appear to be very good cars.
I don't see anything wrong with the Sonic or Cruze. I'd likely pick the Sonic over a Fiesta and the Focus over the Cruze.
Common sense tells me the spindle is the same, though, because both groups of owners complained about the same problem. They probably revise springs rates and use HD shocks and different wheels, though.
Regards,
OW
I'm certain the spring rates and shocks are different, but typically TSB's are made as a result of a number of field complaints. My guess is that field complaints as a percentage of police car sales are higher than that of the non-police cars, which makes me wonder about the part number, although I have no idea either way.
But to say that GM doesn't "like to honor warranties"....what is that based on, in the article linked? Geeze, I guess anybody say anything online, but I've not heard one thing that points to that reality in my world or those around me.
Honda Civics, Toyota Tundras, Nissan 2.4L, numerous VW's and yes even BMW and Porsche!
Transmission failure in many Hondas, mostly Odyssey. CVT failure in Nissans and Audis.
Excessive oil consumption in Hondas, Toyotas, VW's Mazda and Nissan.
How about rust? Hyundai and Kia early 2000's subrame failure, Nissan Altima rusting floorboards, Mazda and Subaru Paint problems, not to mention the Toyota rusted truck frames.
Wow, if someone read your unbalanced post and didn't happen to know anything about cars or the history of them, and they had no clue about anyone's previous experiences with them (hermit recluse lifestyle), then they might be wondering how all these foriegn companies manage to stay in business right now.
Probably due to the nature of the use (chases, heavy equipment, lots of city traffic, etc), so that makes sense.
GM redeemed themselves when they agreed to cover Saabs, anyway.
Speaking only personally, I don't care about the "Business Week" approach to car companies. I like reading about the product, current and 'classic', and how people are currently being treated in the product and by the dealers. I like discussion of the 'value' proponent. But that's me.
Ditto that for the cars my family and I have owned. CR seems to know exactly what went wrong with all of my cars, without my having ever filled out a survey personally for them.
Not those but certainly others do, notably xlu.
There were tasteless posts just after the tsunami that the hosts even had to delete.
It happens in every thread, import and domestic.
But isn't it somewhat comforting to see all those black circles on your money pit of choice and know that you are not alone in your misery and payments for repairs?
:P
Same here.
The issues imports have had mentioned here are all reflected, too.
How do you know the sample error is always to GM's disfavor? Maybe the middle year is the one without sample error and the year before and after is the incorrect sample error filled anomoly. I have a feeling most sample error would be to favor a car company. Seems most magazines err on the side of being positive about a car company. I like that CR doesn't do that. The data is the data, and it is true and real. Perhaps some workers had a bout of alcoholism that spiked in that middle year?
It's not that - it's that nowadays they are spreading out the intro of new engines and transmissions mid-cycle, to keep products fresh.
The Lambda SUVs launched without DI. The DI engine came a year later.
Heck, the Cruze ECO already got transmission updates, in only its 2nd model year.
Chrysler launched the Pentastar on some older models, like the Grand Caravan. Some of the 6 speed automatics will be replaced with 8 speeds as a running change. Continuous improvement.
Ford is putting EcoBoost in more and more models, mostly existing ones, not new cars. Good example:
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/28/2012-ford-edge-limited-ecoboost-review/
Same for the imports. Hoosiers started stuffing the 2GR engines in the Sienna mid cycle, prior to that the same model had the 1MZ engine.
Didn't Acura just upgrade their automatics in existing models?
Nissan literally changes the GT-R every model year.
It's very common to see mid cycle changes, and any v1.0 comes with risks.
month later it needed a new engine at 80,000 miles.
That's the risk you take in buying a used car that you don't know what has happened to it (afterall, the previous owner abandoned it for some reason!). It is a gamble and a crapshoot, with greater risk than a new car purchase. I would hope a mechanic would be able to spot a car that was on the brink of engine failure.
But I'll bet most of them will not make the same mistake twice.
Regards,
OW
What is a potential customer to do?
GM would rather sell you a Camaro anyway.
250+ HP in my Audi A3 currently with FrontTrack FWD, and it handles and balances nicely. S3 intercooler, Stage 2 software from Unitronics, and Exhaust upgrades easily get me over the 250 HP mark. Of course, Audi's FWD is probably light years more sophisticated than Ford's, but torque steer has never been an issue for me.
I know VW/Audi has an assortment of ABC's, XYZ's and electronically controlled differentials to assist in this process for the GTI's/A3's.
All that being said, I'd prefer to have AWD in a 250 HP+ vehicle. I think 300 HP is where you REALLY need the AWD.
Looks smaller than the nox/Terrain twins, at least the D-pillar looks that way.
What kind of Camaro can I get for $25,000?
I want a Camaro around 3,000 lbs, not 4,000 lbs. I guess I'll have to upgrade to the Corvette, and at $25,000, that means getting risky with an old one.
Here here!
To start, do you know what federal politician and Cabinet members actually earn every year? Here is a breakdown:
• Congress Members (Representatives and Senators): $174,000
• Senate and House Majority/Minority Leaders: $193,400
• Cabinet Members: $199,700
• Speaker of the House: $223,500
• Vice President: $230,700
• President: $400,000M
Perhaps they COULD buy a Volt or Corvette, however!
Regards,
OW
I'd add that they probably get more serious maintenance by the service garage. And the techs there know what things to check for whatever reason and they are finding the wear.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Not those but certainly others do, notably xlu.
There were tasteless posts just after the tsunami that the hosts even had to delete.
It happens in every thread, import and domestic.
Perhaps there are more posts here because GM is the biggest US car manufacturer and has been substandard for a long time. Perhaps we love this country and everybody here wants GM to be excellent. But some of us present this by saying how they had x GM car and it was a good value, or reliable, etc. ---- while others are like tough parent who want to vent their tough love --- "mediocre is NOT good enough"; "GM needs to do better", etc.
For me, having never owned a GM car, it started with my college friend's brand new Vega. Then my SIL's Citation. Then my inability to find a decent smaller car to buy from GM. And finally my tax dollars, more than 30 YEARS after the Vega, going to bail out this behemoth failure. So I have a vested interest in them getting it G*D D@MN RIGHT this time!
The title of this topic was changed from a previous form years back by KarenS IIRC to the current topic to make the Anti-GM rants not fit. The continual repetition about long gone problems with the old GM certainly don't fit. The hosts can control the repetition as well as the timeliness of posts to make the discussion one worth reading rather than a rehash. We haven't heard anyone with a recent problem with their Tahoe, e.g. That's the logic used to squash mentions of sludge (or gel or whatever PR term was used by the anonymous car company) in a certain forum.
It's nice for folks to have a catharsis vehicle so they can feel better. But the forum certainly could be much more interesting with a new "feel."
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Actually to continue the tradition of the "New Buick", it's nothing more than another Rebadged Opel
This person doesn't post here very often at all. Do you and the three or four regular bashers here, post regularly on those other forums?
We have the GM Fans discussion for nothing but good news, but there's few "Pollyanna" discussions around here. Human nature being what it is, people don't seem to enjoy yakking about anything but problems. And it's not exactly newsworthy to post that you drove all year with nothing but an oil change needing to be done.
People have long memories - ask me about the '74 Volvos that stranded me and that'll tell you why I never considered buying one. ~35 years and I still don't trust them. And I post about that now and then too.
And as a reminder, we're talking about General Motors, not other posters.
Reminds me of, although better-looking than, that abomination called the Juke, which was recalled last week along with another Nissan model and the Cadillac SRX.
LOL, "Pot, meet Kettle"...
Wow, that's pretty reliable data.
Again, if in my 'yout' I heard some guy saying "I never owned a Ford but my friend's '32 Model A stunk, so I won't even consider a '69 LTD", I'd consider the guy a strange old crank.
I wonder if any Koreans are posting in the Hyundai forum about how they hate government money going towards Hyundai. Somehow I think I already know the answer.
BTW, on Automobile's website, the article that caused so much debate and consternation a couple weeks ago, is posted....about the Sonata.
August 1991
The SC 300 is introduced.
Lexus sweeps the J.D. Power and Associates studiestopping the Customer Satisfaction StudySM as the #1 Carlinethe Initial Quality Study (IQS)SM as the Best Overall Carline, and the Sales Satisfaction StudySM as the Best Overall Carline,
July 1992
Lexus again tops the J.D. Power and Associates Customer Satisfaction StudySM as the #1 Carline, and the Sales Satisfaction StudySM as the Best Overall Carline.
To say "J.D. Edwards (whom many GM bashers pooh-pooh) say they were the best" is different from saying, flatly, "They are the best, although I've never sat in or ridden in one".
All I know, is it didn't look like $45K to me.
Do you really think that's the cause of that kind of anomaly in CR's reporting?
Not sure I've heard you say that before, but I've sure heard the same old "I hate my GM (and/or) '95 Neon" story a zillion times here.
CPO, or get a Sonic Boom with the 1.4T and tune it.
Or a Cruze LT 1.4T and tune that.
You have options...
I can only speak for myself - yes, I do follow those forums.
Most of the time playing the role of fact checker, making corrections left and right. Seems many people made up their minds about hating {insert brand name here} before the facts even come out.
You would be surprised, in fact I think there are more import bashers than GM bashers. I sorta play Devil's Advocate.
Local no-haggle dealer has one for $26,103, that includes freight.
So you can indeed get a new one in that price range.
I try not to harp on it because it's certainly illogical to hold a car grudge for decades. But there you go.
(If you want to read more "newsworthy" items in here, all you have to do is post 'em).
the weight is way above the 3,000 pound target posted.
Just about 3,800, in fact...
- Ray
Happy with my 3,600 pound coupe...
We can disagree. If a poor pattern started decades ago but was only improved in the last 2-3 years, is that still illogical? Your nephew that was a child in trouble in grade school, a pothead in HS, started fights on the street, couldn't hold a job and was a drunk until he was 35 years old, and now has been working reliably for two years? Want him to watch your daughter for a weekend while you go to the mountains with the wife? :surprise:
And let's not mention that it's logical to hold grudges against WW II countries because there might be still a few people alive who were involved.
I think it's a possible logical cause for an anomaly in quality from one year to the next for any type of vehicle. Maybe not the full cause, but partially.
There is probably more than one cause, but I do not think that CR's data and reporting being inaccurate is one of them.
Perhaps a bean counter decided saving .10 cents per part was more important than reliability from one year to the next, then got overruled, and then reoverruled again with the faulty part being brought back into existance. There are a million reasons for quality that can go up and down, but I believe CR's data to be accurate.
Illogical.