Reading CR for their opinion about domestic cars is like reading MacWorld magazine for their opinion about Microsoft.
Actually, there was one GM car that CR was impressed enough with that under the "disadvantages/problems" summary, they simply said "None significant enough to mention".
Alas, that wasn't in recent memory.
I haven't read a CR in awhile, but haven't they tended to be pretty favorable towards the current Malibu?
The so called data is all reader input, and one has to be a "member" or subscriber to CU to even get the form to be filled out. They have a very biased membership.
After C failed the first time, did anyone think they would ever be a good car company? Jeep is the only real brand left as the minivan gave way to the SUV.
You're overlooking Ram. 1,000,000 Calvin stickers can't be wrong.
I've been here for a while, (but not as long as you)
And while i prefer to own and drive Cadillacs, there is a wide swath of years that I stay away from and many current and past Cadillac models that i abhor.
But even those dark days of the mid -late 70s were better than TOYotas of the same time period. And I know from having used them a lot back then.
Lemko said it best however:
Reading CR for their opinion about domestic cars is like reading MacWorld magazine for their opinion about Microsoft
And it's true regardless of what you or andres would like to think.
But even those dark days of the mid -late 70s were better than TOYotas of the same time period. And I know from having used them a lot back then.
I think we're both correct.
In the early days the VW Beetle was pretty much one of a kind. The Japanese in the late '60s and early '70's entered and refined the small, reliable car market.
In contrast, Caddy was a totally different market - large, soft luxury cars. Apples and oranges.
If you wanted a large luxury car in the '70's, then clearly Caddy was better than anything Japanese, because there *wasn't anything* in that category that was Japanese!
If you wanted a smaller, fuel efficient and reliable transportation car, then the Japanese cars were superior, because there really wasn't much of anything yet available from the D3 in that category. And when there was, those cars weren't superior to the Japanese offerings.
They use member input, and you have to be a "member" as in a liberal, import loving domestic hating, biased, blinders on, tunnel vision hater who's input skews the information that CR (actually CU) uses
So, CADILLACmike, I guess you are not biased toward GM. GM brands when compared to say Honda, Acura, Lexus over the years are not even close in the ratings. GM brands, models got many full black circles. Honda, Acura, Lexus mostly full red circles.
Well, you pretty much Can't kill a mid 90's Fleetwood, even if you try, so i had no reservations about buying one in Feb. I even flew up 3 states to pick it up and drive it home. And, buying CPO Cadillacs with 6 yr 100,00 mi warranties takes the uncertainty out of my other recent purchases.
Well, you pretty much Can't kill a mid 90's Fleetwood, even if you try, so i had no reservations about buying one in Feb.
Those used the 700R4 transmission, right? What transmission did that evolve into in later years? Was it the 4L60E or the 4L80E? The 4L60E can be troublesome, but I think the 4L80E was pretty sturdy.
I wouldn't mind having a '94-96 Caprice, RoadHazzard, or Fleetwood with the LT-1 engine.
I can't remember though...did they ever improve the interiors on the Caprice? Two years ago, when my Intrepid got totaled, I looked at a '91 Caprice that a local used car lot had, and positively hated the interior. Ended up with a 2000 Park Ave I bought from the local Cadillac dealer. The interior is a weak spot, but I can tolerate it. Much better than that Caprice was!
For me, having never owned a GM car, it started with my college friend's brand new Vega. Then my SIL's Citation. Then my inability to find a decent smaller car to buy from GM. And finally my tax dollars, more than 30 YEARS after the Vega, going to bail out this behemoth failure. So I have a vested interest in them getting it G*D DMN RIGHT this time!
I respect your candor and you admission on never owning a GM. I think you are missing out, because GM has been steadily improving since the early 90s, and their quality both build and overall vehicle dependability has improved greatly over the past 20 years. Their 4 bangers are still not quite as good ad the imports, but they are narrowing the gap.
I mean Vega - yeah that was a real fine car... But it was nearly 40 years ago, when GM was struggling to reduce the size of its cars. Pinto was also a great car. Citation was not very good, but the Cavalier was a better car, we had a mid 80s that was supposed to be all black spots on CR, but it ran to 120,000 mi with not even a sensor going bad. We gave it to our neice when we decided to get a new car she ran it for a few years more. A friend in NY (not the city) had the same era and had nearly 300,00 mi on his. He was too cheap to buy a newer car, and didn't need to.
But do you remember the hondas and TOYotas that rusted out in 2 years? Growing up in New England I do, the whole bottom of the car would rust away in a year. and the interiors, would fall apart. Been in the cars, drove them, family & friends owned them, none of them are still on the road, while i see plenty of late 60s early 70s Cadillacs still running.
My friend with his rusted out honda - that eventually degenerated into needing a 30MPH push start to bbecause the engine was too sludged up to start, joked that the hondas were made from recycled sheet metal with 1% rust, and that 1% started to work from day 1... :P
I had a 1975 Cadillac Sedan DeVille. I'd actually say the downsized 1977-79 Cadillacs were better than the 1971-76 generation. I wouldn't mind a nice 1979 Cadillac DeVille or Fleetwood and the first-generation Sevilles were really nice as well.
I'll pretty much avoid any 1981 thru 1986 Cadillac with a 39 1/2 foot pole, especially any V-8-6-4s, HT4100s, and Diesels.
I'm sure the rust factor affects perceptions. Here in CA we don't tend to get the rust, so in the '70's the Japanese makes didn't have those problems here. The only '70's cars rusting in CA were the Vegas. But in the last 20-30 years I never see rust on any car unless it's from back east.
We can disagree. If a poor pattern started decades ago but was only improved in the last 2-3 years, is that still illogical? Your nephew that was a child in trouble in grade school, a pothead in HS, started fights on the street, couldn't hold a job and was a drunk until he was 35 years old, and now has been working reliably for two years? Want him to watch your daughter for a weekend while you go to the mountains with the wife?
And let's not mention that it's logical to hold grudges against WW II countries because there might be still a few people alive who were involved.
It hasn't been just the past 2-3 years, it's been a steady (at times slow) improvement for the past 20 years.
And yes the greatest generation of which my mom's side of the family was part of (RIP all of them) have long memories. Who was that news person, Russel something, he died suddenly in late summer 2008. He was interviewed only a month or so before his death, and was talking about his dad (I think he wrote a book). He had just bought his dad a new car, and said "dad, why don't you let me buy you a lexus or mercedes?" to which his dad replied: "Aw Russ, we beat those guys in the war, I'd prefer a nice American car". so Russ bought his dad a Ford LTD CV. Can't remember his last name at present.
Had an 86 Suburban for 14 years. Also had an 86 Honda Accord for 14 years. Both were kept in our garage. This is in northern Illinois, with lots of winter salt.
Honda ended up with 3 times the mileage as Suburban when these were sold by us to private parties. Interior and seats of Honda were excellent at 14 years, but Suburban was showing wear on seats, dashboard cracked, various parts falling off in interior through the years.
On exterior, Honda had no rust, paint was shiny at 14 years. Suburban had lots of rust on rear quarters, lower parts of doors, bottom of rear tailgate. Long before 14 years, paint on Suburban hood and roof failed completely. Roof started to rust out. Had to hand sand it carefully, mask vehicle and spray new paint on the top.
you forgot the little white dot in the center of the red circle. :P
Except for the 1992 LeSabre, Every one of my long term GM cars was panned in CR / CU and none of them failed me. Even some of my shorter term cars (less than 100,000 mi that I put on them) were much better than the panning they got in CU. The major exception was that Fiero, and even that car didn't leave me stranded.
I remember mid 90s Cavaliers getting blasted for unpainted plastic bumpers when the same issued praised tercels that had even worse bumpers that disintegrated over the years. That's what really set me off.
Remember those metal ended black plastic unpainted bumpers on TOYotas that would basically disintegrate in a few years and crumble into nothingness??? I do.
My grandparents had an 86'? (I believe) Burban in that two tone Brown color that lived in Hillsboro, NH. I swear the thing rusted the day it was driven off the lot... I remember my grandpa complaining that he couldn't get his Rusty Jones treatment anymore which he had done on his 78 Ford F100 that was in the barn, rust free while he had the Burban. The Burb had more bondo than paint by the time it was retired.
BTW, the tranny on it bit the shed around the 55k mark and after replacing that, not too long after they spun it out in a snowstorm Christmas morning which totalled it out. Good riddance. :lemon:
And my first car that I bought in HS was an 87 Olds Cutlass Salon, Electric Blue. Bought it at Toyota of Nashua in 1990 with 28 thousand miles on it with bubbling rust spots on the rear quarters, and pits on the hood where paint used to lay. Paint was not one of GM's forte's at the time, that's for certain... :lemon:
Well, I had a brake line on a 1970 Fleetwood rust out, and i had to run a new line from the master cylinder to the rear axle in December in MA while in college, because i was too poor to pay a shop to do it.
But i didn't start hating GM for that.
I also didn't like when the heater control valve on the same car had its rubber diaphragham (can't spell that word) fail and it sucked coolant into the climate control system, and while i never liked that design, it STILL prevented the car from freezing you out on a sub zero morning.
Again i didn't end up hating GM. saw too many imports crumbling around me. Fixed the HCV cleaned up the CC and ran the car for several more years.
You are not telling the entire story here. How much winter driving did each get???? And maybe the honda driver had a longer commute...
I'm sure you are now going to tell us that the honda was driven daily in the snow while the suburban was in the garage all winter...
Well, yes I am. Honda had 247K when we got rid of it and Suburban was in the low 80's. The Suburban was a gas hog compared to the Honda. The Honda was my wife's daily driver, including every workday in the winter. My daily driver was another car, not the Suburban. Suburban was our UTILITY vehicle used maybe 1, 2 times per week, always in the garage.
The guy you were trying to come up with was Tim Russert I believe.
Different people of that generation felt differently about German and Japanese cars. Both my parents served in WWII. By 1972 my mom was driving a Corolla. Dad came around to buying a Datsun for mom and an old Mercedes for me but he always drove American. Last 20 years of his life it was DeVilles and a Buick.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
How does a company that claims it has revamped production and quality control let Sonic's off the assembly line missing brake pads? That's like sending them out missing wheel lugnuts. Regardless of whether it was a plant assembly, or vendor problem, issues like that are critical defects and shouldn't occur in any modern quality control system. Even worse, it wasn't discovered until dealer service shops experienced it! GM owes an explanation to its customers and a resolution that will preclude something so basic and dangerous from happening again. Hopefully no accidents or injuries resulted. Very disappointing.
Carly Simon has an incredible voice - much better than Ms. Rondstadt...
I liked them both!
Tell you what, get both of them (in their '70's mint condition...) and loan me one of your Caddy's to drive around with them.... I could get into the Caddy experience! :shades:
Well, yes I am. Honda had 247K when we got rid of it and Suburban was in the low 80's. The Suburban was a gas hog compared to the Honda. The Honda was my wife's daily driver, including every workday in the winter. My daily driver was another car, not the Suburban. Suburban was our UTILITY vehicle used maybe 1, 2 times per week, always in the garage.
I'm sure the 'Burb did worse because it didn't get enough exercise like the Honda.
Excellent post! I appreciate your response and agree with your concern.
Brings up the "What really changed from Old GM?" questions. Same with the bloated inventory. Same with the advancements from competition when GM is a few years behind.
KUDOS to Audi again, for saying that the VOLT was a car for idiots.
Well those idiots voted their cars number one in customer satisfaction. Who's the idiot?
He would much rather you buy an overly complicated and overpriced Eurotrash Audi so that you can enrich his company while buying his overpriced replacement parts.
I agree CR is biased. A much better gauge of reliability in my opinion is the Identifix information at MSN. I relies on inquiries to their database about actual repairs being made to actual vehicles.
The information comes from car repair facilities. I looked briefly at some of the GM models that do poorly in CR and find they do much better in the Identifix ratings. Also many of the repairs are relatively inexpensive in comparison to the foreign makes. (They give the actual cost of each repair for the problem vehicles)
I noticed that transmission replacements on domestics can be half the cost of foreign makes. On an anecdotal note, my SIL just had the transmission replaced in her 2001 Jeep GC at a cost of $1500 (220k mi.) I see Honda transmissions going for more that double that.
Well it seems like Cadillacmike has stirred up the GM haters on this board. How dare he profer the preposterous suggestion that he is a satisfied GM owner and his cars have been likeable and reliable.
I just don't understand how any manufacturer could assemble a product with such a profound lack of oversight and quality control.
I can't imagine a better way to send the message that you still aren't ready for prime time in the process of making reliable, competitive world-class vehicles.
Comments
Actually, there was one GM car that CR was impressed enough with that under the "disadvantages/problems" summary, they simply said "None significant enough to mention".
Alas, that wasn't in recent memory.
I haven't read a CR in awhile, but haven't they tended to be pretty favorable towards the current Malibu?
You're overlooking Ram. 1,000,000 Calvin stickers can't be wrong.
The Volt and Fiat 500 have flopped.
And while i prefer to own and drive Cadillacs, there is a wide swath of years that I stay away from and many current and past Cadillac models that i abhor.
But even those dark days of the mid -late 70s were better than TOYotas of the same time period. And I know from having used them a lot back then.
Lemko said it best however:
Reading CR for their opinion about domestic cars is like reading MacWorld magazine for their opinion about Microsoft
And it's true regardless of what you or andres would like to think.
I think we're both correct.
In the early days the VW Beetle was pretty much one of a kind. The Japanese in the late '60s and early '70's entered and refined the small, reliable car market.
In contrast, Caddy was a totally different market - large, soft luxury cars. Apples and oranges.
If you wanted a large luxury car in the '70's, then clearly Caddy was better than anything Japanese, because there *wasn't anything* in that category that was Japanese!
If you wanted a smaller, fuel efficient and reliable transportation car, then the Japanese cars were superior, because there really wasn't much of anything yet available from the D3 in that category. And when there was, those cars weren't superior to the Japanese offerings.
So, CADILLACmike, I guess you are not biased toward GM. GM brands when compared to say Honda, Acura, Lexus over the years are not even close in the ratings. GM brands, models got many full black circles. Honda, Acura, Lexus mostly full red circles.
18 yrs ago, the 3.8L OHV was a very dependable and decent performer, even if it was old school OHV.
It's the 4 Cyls that detroit seems to have a problem with making good ones. But I'm completely over 4 cylinder engines for the forseeable future.
Those used the 700R4 transmission, right? What transmission did that evolve into in later years? Was it the 4L60E or the 4L80E? The 4L60E can be troublesome, but I think the 4L80E was pretty sturdy.
I wouldn't mind having a '94-96 Caprice, RoadHazzard, or Fleetwood with the LT-1 engine.
I can't remember though...did they ever improve the interiors on the Caprice? Two years ago, when my Intrepid got totaled, I looked at a '91 Caprice that a local used car lot had, and positively hated the interior. Ended up with a 2000 Park Ave I bought from the local Cadillac dealer. The interior is a weak spot, but I can tolerate it. Much better than that Caprice was!
I respect your candor and you admission on never owning a GM. I think you are missing out, because GM has been steadily improving since the early 90s, and their quality both build and overall vehicle dependability has improved greatly over the past 20 years. Their 4 bangers are still not quite as good ad the imports, but they are narrowing the gap.
I mean Vega - yeah that was a real fine car... But it was nearly 40 years ago, when GM was struggling to reduce the size of its cars. Pinto was also a great car. Citation was not very good, but the Cavalier was a better car, we had a mid 80s that was supposed to be all black spots on CR, but it ran to 120,000 mi with not even a sensor going bad. We gave it to our neice when we decided to get a new car she ran it for a few years more. A friend in NY (not the city) had the same era and had nearly 300,00 mi on his. He was too cheap to buy a newer car, and didn't need to.
But do you remember the hondas and TOYotas that rusted out in 2 years? Growing up in New England I do, the whole bottom of the car would rust away in a year. and the interiors, would fall apart. Been in the cars, drove them, family & friends owned them, none of them are still on the road, while i see plenty of late 60s early 70s Cadillacs still running.
My friend with his rusted out honda - that eventually degenerated into needing a 30MPH push start to bbecause the engine was too sludged up to start, joked that the hondas were made from recycled sheet metal with 1% rust, and that 1% started to work from day 1... :P
I'll pretty much avoid any 1981 thru 1986 Cadillac with a 39 1/2 foot pole, especially any V-8-6-4s, HT4100s, and Diesels.
And let's not mention that it's logical to hold grudges against WW II countries because there might be still a few people alive who were involved.
It hasn't been just the past 2-3 years, it's been a steady (at times slow) improvement for the past 20 years.
And yes the greatest generation of which my mom's side of the family was part of (RIP all of them) have long memories. Who was that news person, Russel something, he died suddenly in late summer 2008. He was interviewed only a month or so before his death, and was talking about his dad (I think he wrote a book). He had just bought his dad a new car, and said "dad, why don't you let me buy you a lexus or mercedes?" to which his dad replied: "Aw Russ, we beat those guys in the war, I'd prefer a nice
American car". so Russ bought his dad a Ford LTD CV. Can't remember his last name at present.
"We don't just make luxury cars, we make Cadillacs!"
I think it was a a CTS ad. That car has taken off, but i still prefer the STS.
Honda ended up with 3 times the mileage as Suburban when these were sold by us to private parties. Interior and seats of Honda were excellent at 14 years, but Suburban was showing wear on seats, dashboard cracked, various parts falling off in interior through the years.
On exterior, Honda had no rust, paint was shiny at 14 years. Suburban had lots of rust on rear quarters, lower parts of doors, bottom of rear tailgate. Long before 14 years, paint on Suburban hood and roof failed completely. Roof started to rust out. Had to hand sand it carefully, mask vehicle and spray new paint on the top.
Except for the 1992 LeSabre, Every one of my long term GM cars was panned in CR / CU and none of them failed me. Even some of my shorter term cars (less than 100,000 mi that I put on them) were much better than the panning they got in CU. The major exception was that Fiero, and even that car didn't leave me stranded.
I remember mid 90s Cavaliers getting blasted for unpainted plastic bumpers when the same issued praised tercels that had even worse bumpers that disintegrated over the years. That's what really set me off.
Remember those metal ended black plastic unpainted bumpers on TOYotas that would basically disintegrate in a few years and crumble into nothingness??? I do.
I'm sure you are now going to tell us that the honda was driven daily in the snow while the suburban was in the garage all winter...
And you don't know what type of use (and when) they got before you bought them.
BTW, the tranny on it bit the shed around the 55k mark and after replacing that, not too long after they spun it out in a snowstorm Christmas morning which totalled it out. Good riddance. :lemon:
But i didn't start hating GM for that.
I also didn't like when the heater control valve on the same car had its rubber diaphragham (can't spell that word) fail and it sucked coolant into the climate control system, and while i never liked that design, it STILL prevented the car from freezing you out on a sub zero morning.
Again i didn't end up hating GM. saw too many imports crumbling around me. Fixed the HCV cleaned up the CC and ran the car for several more years.
I don't buy it. Sounds like a very far-fetched conspiracy theory that somehow CR/CU advertisements were directed toward a biased subscriber base.
Impossible, and non-sense!
Why, even you, with your pro-domestic RAH RAH bias, could become a CR subscriber/member! They'd welcome you with open arms in fact.
I'm sure you are now going to tell us that the honda was driven daily in the snow while the suburban was in the garage all winter...
Well, yes I am. Honda had 247K when we got rid of it and Suburban was in the low 80's. The Suburban was a gas hog compared to the Honda. The Honda was my wife's daily driver, including every workday in the winter. My daily driver was another car, not the Suburban. Suburban was our UTILITY vehicle used maybe 1, 2 times per week, always in the garage.
Different people of that generation felt differently about German and Japanese cars. Both my parents served in WWII. By 1972 my mom was driving a Corolla. Dad came around to buying a Datsun for mom and an old Mercedes for me but he always drove American. Last 20 years of his life it was DeVilles and a Buick.
My '95 Neon didn't have one competent part in it.
All the engineers engineered with faulty logic and parts.
All the assemblyman assembled with faulty skills and craftsmenship.
Is it any wonder that I doubt America has the ABILITY to make a decent car AT ANY cost, let alone a competitive one?
KUDOS to Audi again, for saying that the VOLT was a car for idiots.
Agreed. But GM is not in a vacuum. They need to improve FASTER than their competition, something that they're not yet doing.
NO way can that be true. A company that's been improving steadily for 20 years can not all of a sudden go out of business and go bankrupt!
I call that a 20 year steady decline!
I liked them both!
Tell you what, get both of them (in their '70's mint condition...) and loan me one of your Caddy's to drive around with them.... I could get into the Caddy experience! :shades:
I'm sure the 'Burb did worse because it didn't get enough exercise like the Honda.
After 5 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, GM will be paid by the owner as follows:
100% of purchase price agreed to if no warranty visits or problems are recorded.
95% of purchase price if 1 warranty visit or problem was required to be fixed.
85% of purchase price for 2 fixes.
75% for 3 fixes.
60% for 4 fixes (separate trips to the dealer).
50% for 5 corrections.
FREE for 6 or more.
I'm in!
My take - Carly Simon is the better musician, but Rondstadt has the stronger voice. Like them both, but will go with Gracie Slick!
Brings up the "What really changed from Old GM?" questions. Same with the bloated inventory. Same with the advancements from competition when GM is a few years behind.
Regards,
OW
He loved that car the best until the 2001 BPA.
Regards,
OW
Obviously not like this one, which looks more like the ones I see:
Well those idiots voted their cars number one in customer satisfaction.
Who's the idiot?
He would much rather you buy an overly complicated and overpriced Eurotrash Audi so that you can enrich his company while buying his overpriced replacement parts.
The information comes from car repair facilities. I looked briefly at some of the GM models that do poorly in CR and find they do much better in the Identifix ratings. Also many of the repairs are relatively inexpensive in comparison to the foreign makes. (They give the actual cost of each repair for the problem vehicles)
I noticed that transmission replacements on domestics can be half the cost of foreign makes. On an anecdotal note, my SIL just had the transmission replaced in her 2001 Jeep GC at a cost of $1500 (220k mi.) I see Honda transmissions going for more that double that.
I like "No Secrets", but I like "Playing Possum" better...and the cover should probably have a plain brown wrapper around it!
How dare he profer the preposterous suggestion that he is a satisfied GM owner and his cars have been likeable and reliable.
I just don't understand how any manufacturer could assemble a product with such a profound lack of oversight and quality control.
I can't imagine a better way to send the message that you still aren't ready for prime time in the process of making reliable, competitive world-class vehicles.