I'd love to see something like that for the should-be-hanged execs of bailed out financial sector entities, if not the entire FIRE industry cabal in total. These are the people responsible for 95% of the malaise in the economy, and they receive nothing but undeserved riches for their treachery.
In a smaller car, like a Civic, the gooseneck hinges do intrude. Trust me, I've taken many a trip across PA in one with a coworker, with three guys' luggage for a week in the trunk and also our 'moving office' equipment and supplies.
I don't think it's just smaller cars, I think it's most modern cars in general. My 2000 Park Ave has the most intrusive gooseneck hinges I've ever seen. I think they have to be that big, in order for the trunks to open as wide as they do.
My Park Ave's trunk is also able to open fully vertical, 90 degrees, whereas most of the old cars with goosenecks that I've owned only open about 45 degrees or so.
I've noticed that on the 2011+ Charger and 300, they still use a form of gooseneck, but they also box off the area that it retracts into. That takes away some luggage space, but it also eliminates the risk of smashing cargo.
Maybe that hidden gooseneck design is something from the Daimler days - my modern car has a design like that, and I am pretty sure my old W126 did too...I think BMWs use it too.
Heck, the gaps on my wife's 2005 LaCrosse were tight and consistent when she first bought it. I don't know what it's like after that serious accident last year.
Wide, imprecise gaps between body panels endangered Lutz’s drive to make GM’s cars look more attractive and expensive. But this design problem couldn’t be fixed within his design bailiwick. Instead, the gaps were the result of “a generalized tolerance of sloppy [product] execution.” Lacking sufficient power to dictate a fix, Lutz kept bringing the issue up until the annoyed head of the metal fabrication group finally offered, “show me a car that has the fits you like, and we’ll do the same with ours.” Lutz showed this exec a 2002 Hyundai Sonata. The skilled engineers in metal fab then achieved the requested tight, precise gaps with shockingly little effort and expense. Apparently they’d never realized this was desired. Once educated by Lutz, they did much better. Enlightened and encouraged by this victory without losers, Lutz took his show on the road, educating the scattered tribes on how to recognize sloppiness and the need to eliminate it.
they still use a form of gooseneck, but they also box off the area that it retracts into. That takes away some luggage space, but it also eliminates the risk of smashing cargo.
I've noticed that on the 2011+ Charger and 300, they still use a form of gooseneck, but they also box off the area that it retracts into. That takes away some luggage space, but it also eliminates the risk of smashing cargo.
That's how the E Class is and it looks like the current Lacrosse too.
Uh-oh, look at the Cruze. Looks like intruding goose neck hinges to me;)
Is that a prop rod I see? I'd still take a Cruze any day over a Cobalt despite the flaws;)
Here's how GM used to do it back in the disco era...
I know it's hard to tell from pics, but supposedly the Cruze has a slightly larger trunk than my '76 LeMans...16 cubic feet compared to 15. But, I wonder if my beer cooler would even fit in the trunk opening of that Cruze?
IMO, my LeMans's trunk is pretty tiny, but that pic is deceptive. Maybe the trunk actually is bigger than the Cruze, but because the spare is in the trunk, rather than in a compartment under the trunk floor, the actual useable volume is less?
I had a 1975 Pontiac Astre (same as the Vega). I owned the car 5 years, put over 75k miles on it, never had a mechanical issue, nor did I suffer any rust issues, even though the car was never garaged.
Never used a drop of oil.
If the subsequent owner(s) had the same experience, it's still running today.
Based upon that single experience, if it was your experience, you would be sitting here making claims the car was a superlative design, probably one ahead of its time. an outstanding GM product.
You would be alone. One doesn't have to be an "elitist" to see that.
I don't have a dime invested in Toyota, Hyundai, etc. I do have MY tax $$$$ invested in GM.
Your continued whining about "well, the other guys do it, too", even when the other guys aren't doing it only makes you come across as a bit unreasonable.
I don't cut any manufacturer any slack when they are marketing a substandard product. If you have a beef with Toyota, then go to a Toyota forum. Same for Ford, Kia, etc.
I don't believe in giving a kid a "certificate of attendance" or a diploma, just because he sat at a desk for K-12. Just because somebody shows up for work doesn't translate to a paycheck or a "job well done".
Evidently, you have a different opinion.
Spend your $$$ any way you wish... It's a free country.
Even the bottom of the line model in any car line today should have straight, uniform body lines.
Quality of interior materials, options, seating comfort may differ, but there simply is no excuse for body alignment issues, regardless of manufacturer.
At 17.5 percent, GM’s U.S. market share through March “may have surprised some people,” Girsky, 49, told analysts April 4. It’s below the 19 percent level that was the average full-year estimate of five analysts Bloomberg surveyed in January. GM finished 2011 with 19.6 percent of the U.S. market, according to researcher Autodata Corp. The last time it ended a year with 17.5 percent market share or less was 1922.
The drop for GM, which retook the title of the world’s top- selling automaker in 2011, is among the biggest surprises this year in U.S. market share moves. Increased demand is spurring analysts and automakers to boost 2012 sales estimates.
Should GM be worried?
GM’s 2012 share is even more striking considering that 10 years ago, GM was aiming to return to 30 percent of the American market. :surprise: It’s also something of a surprise, given that GM got the chance during its federally sponsored bankruptcy to shed debt, rid itself of under performing brands, and concentrate just on the vehicles it thought could sell best. Indeed, GM has introduced new small cars, including the Chevrolet Cruze and Sonic, and is pushing to make Buick more contemporary with cars like the Verano, just going on sale.
However, GM also is competing in a market where every company is trying to make at effort at a rebound, or to hang onto their market share gains.
As it has done so many times in the past, GM is trying to shift the spotlight to its upcoming models, like the new Cadillac ATS, meant to be an entry level BMW and Mercedes fighter. Last week in New York, it showed a freshened Chevrolet Impala, although it isn’t due until the 2014 model year.
But unlike the past, GM is not relying on bigger incentives to pull itself out of its share slump. It reduced incentives by $405 per vehicle in the first quarter compared with 2011, according to Autodata.
That puts its average at $3,161 per vehicle. It has resisted dialing up its cash and cheap financing plans even though its share of the American market dropped even further, to 16.4 percent in March, according to Autodata. Still, it’s likely GM will do something fairly soon, if only to support one of its perennial best-sellers, the Chevrolet Silverado.
As I wrote last week, Silverado has fallen from its seemingly permanent spot as the country’s second-best selling vehicle, behind the Ford F-series, to fourth on the industry’s top-10 best-sellers list.
But, in a market where every tenth of a point is fought for, climbing back from its market share hole won’t be easy. Look how long it’s taken Ford.
Very disappointed in those things. Guess I've never looked under the hood of a Cruze or under the trunk. Cheesy I'd say.
BTW...
I don't cut any manufacturer any slack when they are marketing a substandard product. If you have a beef with Toyota, then go to a Toyota forum. Same for Ford, Kia, etc.
To what end? Just to gloat or p*** in somebody's Wheaties over there? Why?
To me, the most inane posts on this forum were:
1) I personally saw one of the 3,996 SRX's recalled, on fire and I just happen to hate GM. 2) GM does not honor warranties on cars before the bankruptcy (spoken as absolute fact here). 3) GM considers sales, movement of autos to a dealer. 4) Look, Corvette recalled (post was three years old). 5) Ah, quit whining about hood props and trunk hinges; 4mm off is more important. 6) 1.3 million BMW's and 700K Toyotas recalled last month; that's small potatoes compared to the Cruze steering wheel recall. 7) The "Buy 'Murican" crowd (and I quote) are racist.
Give me a freakin' break.
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Those hinges are smaller than what my coworker's Civic has...or, at least they look smaller because we have a small car's trunk so full of stuff when we go to Harrisburg.
The no-hood-prop and no gooseneck hinges are two small things that 'delight' as they say, in my cheapo car. I much appreciate those more than if there was a 4mm gap. There may be...I don't care enough to check.
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I have to ask...why would you have bought an Astre instead of a probably-less-expensive Vega? Not exactly the same, but I'm reminded of Cimarron versus Cavalier.
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I'll admit I find the prop rods to be pretty cheapish, and other designs should exist on a premium product. For the trunk hinges, they don't intrude enough to irk me, it's not like I pack the thing using every square inch - and most owners of similar cars likely never do likewise.
I'll admit I find the prop rods to be pretty cheapish, and other designs should exist on a premium product. For the trunk hinges, they don't intrude enough to irk me, it's not like I pack the thing using every square inch - and most owners of similar cars likely never do likewise.
Sure, I wouldn't expect a premium car to use a prop rod, but it's really a non factor for me when looking at cars. I certainly don't think any less of a Cruze, Focus, or Civic class of vehicle for using them.
I bought the Astre because my family had a long-standing very good relationship with the Pontiac dealer for years and years.
Frankly, I don't think I buy into your comparison of a Chevy Vega/Pontiac Astre in the same vein as a Chevy Cavalier/Cadillac Cimarron. In those days, at least in the area I lived a Pontiac was only slightly higher rated than a Chevy, whereas Cadillac was top-of-the-line.
Indeed, the Cimarron when introduced in 1981 listed for $12,000+, almost double the comparable models sold under other makes...
Make no mistake about it... The Astre had the exact same drive train as the Vega, and other than a cosmetic difference front/back-wise, it was the same body. As I recall, the interior was much nicer in the Astre, but then again, I owned the "high-line" model, and I don't really recall what the equivalent Vega model looked like.
Here's an article stating that only Cruzes going through a 'certain...station' were suspect. One knows they built more than 2,100 Cruzes in total in that time period.
Somewhat leans towards the 'repair station' story I know I had read someplace, and found again in thirty seconds on the 'net earlier today. Perhaps I heard more than you did because I live not far from Lordstown.
Hey, I hear BMW was the choice of Amanda Bynes who hit a police car while drunk a few days ago. Wow, 'furrin' the choice of 26-year old drunk starlets!
Ridiculous comment of course, but not real far off from stereotypical things I've read here.
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The Astre's seat trim was identical to Vega's...their base seats were just as cheap, and their Custom interior was just as nice (Camaro seats). The Astre had a better-looking steering wheel IMHO and had some woodgrain on the lower part of the instrument panel that no Vega had.
Ironically, I was good friends in college with a girl who had a '75 Astre Safari wagon (woodgrain), 4-speed with Custom interior. The body and engine were fine at six years' time. She lived in Utah but went to school in PA and drove it out and back. I do think the '76's and '77's were the cars the '71 Vegas should have been, but even by '75 I don't think they were too bad. My grandparents bought the first Vega our hometown dealer got in ...a '71 two-door sedan, in August '70. After seven years and exactly 3,108 miles (that's correct), they gave it to my aunt who lived an hour and a half away. Her husband had to change fuel filters three times on the way home!
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Pretty funny, but I'd be amazed if the new Impala "probably" (as he expertly notes) has less room inside in the back. That's one place the current Impala stinks at, for a car that size. That said, as I've mentioned here before, I like the cloth split bench seat and cloth-covered center armrest up front, and in LT trim with the wheels once reserved for the LTZ, and no spoiler, I think it's handsome.
In that 2000 iteration, I always liked the '02 in that one-year-only really deep dark green, with neutral cloth split front bench seat, the 3.8 engine, and one built for about the three months the 'lacy' aluminum wheels actually were entirely polished, instead of silver paint with only a polished center like they were in '00-most of '02. I'd take that car waaayyyy over the same year Taurus.
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but I'd be amazed if the new Impala "probably" (as he expertly notes) has less room inside in the back.
Yeah, I would hope the new model would improve rear seat room.
I'd take that car waaayyyy over the same year Taurus.
My wife had an '01 Impala and an 03 Taurus. I don't want either, but they were base model cars. The 3.4 was certainly better than Ford's ancient 3.0 Vulcan. My dad had a fully loaded '00 Taurus that wasn't that bad he kept it for 9 years and 180k miles (though it was very tired after 150k). I definitely preferred the interior of the Taurus, but other than that, it likely was a crap shoot.
I don't know what GM did to the Impala for the 06 refresh. Overall, I liked it much better, but rear seat room seemed to suffer. It's primarily why my wife picked an 06 Ford 500 over an 06 Impala for a company car. We looked at them both. I got in the rear of the Impala and it was bad, the 500 felt like a limo in comparison. I would swear the '00-05 version had more rear leg room.
But then again, Ford kind of did the same thing with the new Taurus, it doesn't feel like it has nearly as much room as the previous model.
Ironically, I was good friends in college with a girl who had a '75 Astre Safari wagon (woodgrain), 4-speed with Custom interior. The body and engine were fine at six years' time.
Sounds like the very same model I had... Burgundy exterior and interior... Sort of a "modern woodie" look to it. Same tranny, too.
Up to that time, it was the nicest car I had ever owned.
That car posed a great dilemma to me. In 1978, I was fresh out of grad school and recently married, and the last thing I needed was another car payment.
It was obvious that I had been lucky with the car so far, but the odds were stacked against me, with all the rust issues and engine problems with the Vega and Astre (it still had the aluminum based engine, not the "iron Duke" engine).
Trade-in values were falling through the floor by that time. But, there wouldn't be any trade-in value if the engine failed...
No GM dealer I spoke with was very interested in taking the car on a trade, but a local Chrysler dealer offered me a very attractive trade-in amount on a 1978 Lebarron (Cloud Grey, but not a popular color at the time in that area) he had sitting on his lot at the time, so I decided to make the move before destiny decided for me.
In the end, we got 100K miles and 8 years out of the Chrysler, and the only service work done on it was the replacement of the front brakes and calipers, spark plugs and wires. It ended up being a really good reliable car.
Still, I wonder what happened to the Astre. Did it develop rust issues? Did the engine finally start burning oil like so many others did? If money had not been an object, I would have kept the car. I just couldn't afford to take such a risk at the time.
My friend's was orange with saddle vinyl inside and roof rack. They had less cargo capacity than a Pinto wagon, but I always thought they looked better.
The '75's weren't bad for rust. Midway through the '74 run they put fender liners in them (finally). I can remember looking at a new one and for some strange reason sticking my hand up inside the fender and voila, inner fenders! I knew they hadn't had them earlier.
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Author is often a jerk, but a fun read, and he hits a lot of things on the head. I loathed the look of the 00-05 Impala - seemed dumpy and cheap to me, especially the rear end. The less than stellar 3.4 that is found in most of them is far from refined as well - but they do seem to be durable. I like the "cockroach" reference, something I once read about Chevettes or K-cars, both of which lived on for eons before finally fading away.
The 06+ model styling-wise was a huge gap, but should have been redone by 2011 at the latest. Too bad it didn't get the decent engine until the end.
I rented an Impala last year that had a whopping 4 miles on it. Moderate LT trim, 3.4, couldn't be more forgettable, some dubious ergonomics and materials - but I am picky. To the average non-car person, it might be fine, and can probably be had for a bargain price, especially when at about 2 years old.
My wife's 2005 LaCrosse doesn't have goose-neck hinges on the decklid. They're rather small hinges with their own little hydraulic cylinders that fold into pockets stamped into the sheet metal outside the trunk opening. They don't intrude into the cargo space at all. However, the new LaCrosse seems to be a much nicer car than her already nice LaCrosse. I guess you've got to give a little to get little.
was on this very board where I saw repeated excuses allowing Toyota off the hook
I wouldn't get worked up about it Uplander because despite the posters Toyota has paid a huge price for these problems. They no longer can command any significant price premium over D3 which gives them less profit per vehicle than they used to get. However, as with most things in life its a double edged sword for D3 because Toyota still makes nice products and now sells them at D3 prices. This may be one of the reasons GM has been upping incentives.
I don't think GM is quite the basket case some suggest though. Chrysler is a basket case IMO with the baggage of consistently poor quality. Marchionne has an uphill battle, but he is the type who might just turn it around over the next few years. If he does, Mulally will drop into the Minor's - just kidding! I don't think Ford is as well off as some suggest either. Quality seems to vary between models and it sure seems like the Microsoft Synch and My Ford aren't panning out very well. The heavy move to Euro styling is still out for the jury as well. Their avoidance of bailout money will likely fade away as a buyer's factor in the next year or so also. GM was kind of a mess when it went BK, so I think you have to give it a few more years before making pronouncements on its future one way or the other, but I do get concerned about an appearance of complacency there sometimes.
Author is often a jerk, but a fun read, and he hits a lot of things on the head. I loathed the look of the 00-05 Impala - seemed dumpy and cheap to me, especially the rear end.
That's pretty much how I viewed the article and the car. I remember attending the Chicago auto show and looking at a new '00 Impala and basically laughing out loud about how awful the interior looked. The joke was on me as we ended up having one in our driveway for a few years.
The less than stellar 3.4 that is found in most of them is far from refined as well
Yeah, I don't know if the groaning sounds that engine made will ever leave my memory.
To the average non-car person, it might be fine, and can probably be had for a bargain price, especially when at about 2 years old.
We had this debate a while back. If you just want a decent sized sedan to get from point A to point B. A 2 year old Impala would be tough to beat for the price.
My wife's 2005 LaCrosse doesn't have goose-neck hinges on the decklid. They're rather small hinges with their own little hydraulic cylinders that fold into pockets stamped into the sheet metal outside the trunk opening.
IIRC, that's how they were on my wife's grand prix too and the Taurus has a similar setup too.
However, the new LaCrosse seems to be a much nicer car than her already nice LaCrosse. I guess you've got to give a little to get little.
Actually, it looks to me that you give up a little to get a lot when comparing the old LaCrosse to a new one.
... 2) GM does not honor warranties on cars before the bankruptcy (spoken as absolute fact here).
Well there was the case of (I think) police cruisers that weren't warranted, so at least there was some substance behind the claim. As you say, perhaps only in a special case. But not totally inane.
3) GM considers sales, movement of autos to a dealer.
Given that this occurs in a number of industries, and the dealers are independent businesspeople, it's not an unreasonable assumption. Especially when the company was overproducing and stuffing the sales channel. Not completely inane.
...... 5) Ah, quit whining about hood props and trunk hinges; 4mm off is more important.
We don't know WHERE that 4mm was. It would have been nice to see a picture. I can tell you that on a panel gap that is only 4mm, a 4mm discrepancy would be VERY noticeable and poor looking. I'd say the jury is out on this one, it's far from inane. Hood props and trunk hinges are how many, perhaps most, cars are designed. NOT the same as misalignment at all.
6) 1.3 million BMW's and 700K Toyotas recalled last month; that's small potatoes compared to the Cruze steering wheel recall.
You might be correct. But there is also a degree of significance here. Loose steering wheels pale in comparison to a lot of other problems, don't you think? Any one month can be bad or good - in the "noise". What is the record by year? Certainly GM was a lot worse in the past. If they are (since BK) averaging fewer recalls than most on an *annual* basis, then kudos to them. But I wouldn't say this was "inane".
7) The "Buy 'Murican" crowd (and I quote) are racist.
The Cruze recall was 2,100 cars, and as far as I've read, one car was found with the problem. It's awful, but it's 2,100 cars.
And the "GM reports sales as what it sells to dealers" and "GM doesn't honor warranties before the bankruptcy" were reported as factual, flat statements...not "I believe", "I think", or "I heard", even.
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And the "GM reports sales as what it sells to dealers"
GM or any manufacturer counts the revenue as as it receives it/books it. The cars dealers receive are paid for via floor plan financing, so GM is getting revenue prior to those vehicles actually being sold to the end user.
Now that is different than actually counting monthly unit sales, but GM certainly is counting the revenue as it comes in.
I've worked in a manufacturer/dealer environment and trust me, the manufacturers want paid regardless of whether we sold the product or not. Sure, they also provided back end money (rebates) to help get inventory out the door if needed too.
Are you telling me that when monthly sales units of various models are reported, those are not retail sales? I find that extremely hard to believe.
Also, why were people posting earlier, multiple times, that only GM did this?
My Malibu sat on another dealer's lot for four months before I bought it via a dealer trade. Are you telling me that my car showed up in reported February sales numbers, not June's when I bought it?
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We don't know WHERE that 4mm was. It would have been nice to see a picture. I can tell you that on a panel gap that is only 4mm, a 4mm discrepancy would be VERY noticeable and poor looking.
What people are forgetting is that the rest of the car is probably 2-3mm. We're talking about a 1mm difference that the anal and jaded (admitted it himself) reviewer noticed and then apparently got out a measuring tool.
I stand by my previous statements. In fact, I don't see why anyone reads auto magazines or reviews since it's all so far removed from reality. The only thing that matters is what it feels like when it's you driving it.
I think Circlew and Deiselone are correct. But honestly, I think the whole issue is a non issue because financials are reported quarterly. So whether the sale is booked when sold to the dealer or to the ultimate customer, average dealer inventory turn means GM's financial reporting should generally be a wash on quarterly's and particularly on the annual report. If a dealer isn't turning their inventory every 60-90 days it won't take long for that dealership to get into cash flow problems. I highly doubt GM is pulling off any unethical or illegal accounting manuevers. They are a public corporation that is independently audited, and false reporting on their SEC 10Q and 10K reports is a fast way for executives to end up in jail. It will also quickly result in big hits to their stock price which tends to directly impact executive bonuses.
Are you telling me that when monthly sales units of various models are reported, those are not retail sales? I find that extremely hard to believe.
No, I'm telling you GM and the rest book their sales to the dealers when they are delivered to the dealer. New unit sales are reported when the cars are sold to consumers like you!
So, sales, profitability and all of the additional corporate metrics reported for GM and the rest actually are reporting the monetary sales (and accounting) based on dealers deliveries. That is why the previous discussions on inventory stuffing emerged. More inventory in a period means GM and the restmoved forward sales (not unit sales) even though the cars aren't actually sold yet to consumers like you!
Comments
I don't think it's just smaller cars, I think it's most modern cars in general. My 2000 Park Ave has the most intrusive gooseneck hinges I've ever seen. I think they have to be that big, in order for the trunks to open as wide as they do.
My Park Ave's trunk is also able to open fully vertical, 90 degrees, whereas most of the old cars with goosenecks that I've owned only open about 45 degrees or so.
I've noticed that on the 2011+ Charger and 300, they still use a form of gooseneck, but they also box off the area that it retracts into. That takes away some luggage space, but it also eliminates the risk of smashing cargo.
The only sort of GM related recall news this week, among the Ford and Chrysler stories, is this Pontiac one.
Missed it by that much!
:shades:
Wide, imprecise gaps between body panels endangered Lutz’s drive to make GM’s cars look more attractive and expensive. But this design problem couldn’t be fixed within his design bailiwick. Instead, the gaps were the result of “a generalized tolerance of sloppy [product] execution.” Lacking sufficient power to dictate a fix, Lutz kept bringing the issue up until the annoyed head of the metal fabrication group finally offered, “show me a car that has the fits you like, and we’ll do the same with ours.” Lutz showed this exec a 2002 Hyundai Sonata. The skilled engineers in metal fab then achieved the requested tight, precise gaps with shockingly little effort and expense. Apparently they’d never realized this was desired. Once educated by Lutz, they did much better. Enlightened and encouraged by this victory without losers, Lutz took his show on the road, educating the scattered tribes on how to recognize sloppiness and the need to eliminate it.
Regards,
OW
GM is doing it too. Here is my LaCrosse.
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Just give me a hatchback. Problem solved;)
I dislike hatches. They're noisier and stuff in the back can fall into the rear seat if you don't have the divider in there.
That's how the E Class is and it looks like the current Lacrosse too.
Uh-oh, look at the Cruze. Looks like intruding goose neck hinges to me;)
Is that a prop rod I see? I'd still take a Cruze any day over a Cobalt despite the flaws;)
I know it's hard to tell from pics, but supposedly the Cruze has a slightly larger trunk than my '76 LeMans...16 cubic feet compared to 15. But, I wonder if my beer cooler would even fit in the trunk opening of that Cruze?
IMO, my LeMans's trunk is pretty tiny, but that pic is deceptive. Maybe the trunk actually is bigger than the Cruze, but because the spare is in the trunk, rather than in a compartment under the trunk floor, the actual useable volume is less?
I had a 1975 Pontiac Astre (same as the Vega). I owned the car 5 years, put over 75k miles on it, never had a mechanical issue, nor did I suffer any rust issues, even though the car was never garaged.
Never used a drop of oil.
If the subsequent owner(s) had the same experience, it's still running today.
Based upon that single experience, if it was your experience, you would be sitting here making claims the car was a superlative design, probably one ahead of its time. an outstanding GM product.
You would be alone. One doesn't have to be an "elitist" to see that.
I don't have a dime invested in Toyota, Hyundai, etc. I do have MY tax $$$$ invested in GM.
Your continued whining about "well, the other guys do it, too", even when the other guys aren't doing it only makes you come across as a bit unreasonable.
I don't cut any manufacturer any slack when they are marketing a substandard product. If you have a beef with Toyota, then go to a Toyota forum. Same for Ford, Kia, etc.
I don't believe in giving a kid a "certificate of attendance" or a diploma, just because he sat at a desk for K-12. Just because somebody shows up for work doesn't translate to a paycheck or a "job well done".
Evidently, you have a different opinion.
Spend your $$$ any way you wish... It's a free country.
Quality of interior materials, options, seating comfort may differ, but there simply is no excuse for body alignment issues, regardless of manufacturer.
The drop for GM, which retook the title of the world’s top- selling automaker in 2011, is among the biggest surprises this year in U.S. market share moves. Increased demand is spurring analysts and automakers to boost 2012 sales estimates.
Should GM be worried?
GM’s 2012 share is even more striking considering that 10 years ago, GM was aiming to return to 30 percent of the American market. :surprise:
It’s also something of a surprise, given that GM got the chance during its federally sponsored bankruptcy to shed debt, rid itself of under performing brands, and concentrate just on the vehicles it thought could sell best. Indeed, GM has introduced new small cars, including the Chevrolet Cruze and Sonic, and is pushing to make Buick more contemporary with cars like the Verano, just going on sale.
However, GM also is competing in a market where every company is trying to make at effort at a rebound, or to hang onto their market share gains.
As it has done so many times in the past, GM is trying to shift the spotlight to its upcoming models, like the new Cadillac ATS, meant to be an entry level BMW and Mercedes fighter. Last week in New York, it showed a freshened Chevrolet Impala, although it isn’t due until the 2014 model year.
But unlike the past, GM is not relying on bigger incentives to pull itself out of its share slump. It reduced incentives by $405 per vehicle in the first quarter compared with 2011, according to Autodata.
That puts its average at $3,161 per vehicle. It has resisted dialing up its cash and cheap financing plans even though its share of the American market dropped even further, to 16.4 percent in March, according to Autodata. Still, it’s likely GM will do something fairly soon, if only to support one of its perennial best-sellers, the Chevrolet Silverado.
As I wrote last week, Silverado has fallen from its seemingly permanent spot as the country’s second-best selling vehicle, behind the Ford F-series, to fourth on the industry’s top-10 best-sellers list.
But, in a market where every tenth of a point is fought for, climbing back from its market share hole won’t be easy. Look how long it’s taken Ford.
Regards,
OW
Even so, if you're getting your news from YouTube or opinion forums rather than respected and reliable news sources, well....
Buick didn't bother to upgrade the hinges or eliminate the prop rod from the Cruze either.
A Buick with a hood prop rod? So much for a premium brand;)
BTW...
I don't cut any manufacturer any slack when they are marketing a substandard product. If you have a beef with Toyota, then go to a Toyota forum. Same for Ford, Kia, etc.
To what end? Just to gloat or p*** in somebody's Wheaties over there? Why?
To me, the most inane posts on this forum were:
1) I personally saw one of the 3,996 SRX's recalled, on fire and I just happen to hate GM.
2) GM does not honor warranties on cars before the bankruptcy (spoken as absolute fact here).
3) GM considers sales, movement of autos to a dealer.
4) Look, Corvette recalled (post was three years old).
5) Ah, quit whining about hood props and trunk hinges; 4mm off is more important.
6) 1.3 million BMW's and 700K Toyotas recalled last month; that's small potatoes compared to the Cruze steering wheel recall.
7) The "Buy 'Murican" crowd (and I quote) are racist.
Give me a freakin' break.
I don't see what the big deal is about these hinges. This was a $75K++ car when new, too.
The no-hood-prop and no gooseneck hinges are two small things that 'delight' as they say, in my cheapo car. I much appreciate those more than if there was a 4mm gap. There may be...I don't care enough to check.
Sure, I wouldn't expect a premium car to use a prop rod, but it's really a non factor for me when looking at cars. I certainly don't think any less of a Cruze, Focus, or Civic class of vehicle for using them.
Frankly, I don't think I buy into your comparison of a Chevy Vega/Pontiac Astre in the same vein as a Chevy Cavalier/Cadillac Cimarron. In those days, at least in the area I lived a Pontiac was only slightly higher rated than a Chevy, whereas Cadillac was top-of-the-line.
Indeed, the Cimarron when introduced in 1981 listed for $12,000+, almost double the comparable models sold under other makes...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac_Cimarron
Make no mistake about it... The Astre had the exact same drive train as the Vega, and other than a cosmetic difference front/back-wise, it was the same body. As I recall, the interior was much nicer in the Astre, but then again, I owned the "high-line" model, and I don't really recall what the equivalent Vega model looked like.
http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/04/general_motors_to_recall_210- 0.html
Somewhat leans towards the 'repair station' story I know I had read someplace, and found again in thirty seconds on the 'net earlier today. Perhaps I heard more than you did because I live not far from Lordstown.
Hey, I hear BMW was the choice of Amanda Bynes who hit a police car while drunk a few days ago. Wow, 'furrin' the choice of 26-year old drunk starlets!
Ridiculous comment of course, but not real far off from stereotypical things I've read here.
Ironically, I was good friends in college with a girl who had a '75 Astre Safari wagon (woodgrain), 4-speed with Custom interior. The body and engine were fine at six years' time. She lived in Utah but went to school in PA and drove it out and back. I do think the '76's and '77's were the cars the '71 Vegas should have been, but even by '75 I don't think they were too bad. My grandparents bought the first Vega our hometown dealer got in ...a '71 two-door sedan, in August '70. After seven years and exactly 3,108 miles (that's correct), they gave it to my aunt who lived an hour and a half away. Her husband had to change fuel filters three times on the way home!
I got a few chuckles from this article.
In that 2000 iteration, I always liked the '02 in that one-year-only really deep dark green, with neutral cloth split front bench seat, the 3.8 engine, and one built for about the three months the 'lacy' aluminum wheels actually were entirely polished, instead of silver paint with only a polished center like they were in '00-most of '02. I'd take that car waaayyyy over the same year Taurus.
Of course, many prominent sports figures prefer blinged-out Escalades.
The only thing they all have in common is that it has to be expensive.
Perhaps Tiger should have ordered the "golf-club-proof" glass on his vehicles...
Yeah, I would hope the new model would improve rear seat room.
I'd take that car waaayyyy over the same year Taurus.
My wife had an '01 Impala and an 03 Taurus. I don't want either, but they were base model cars. The 3.4 was certainly better than Ford's ancient 3.0 Vulcan. My dad had a fully loaded '00 Taurus that wasn't that bad he kept it for 9 years and 180k miles (though it was very tired after 150k). I definitely preferred the interior of the Taurus, but other than that, it likely was a crap shoot.
I don't know what GM did to the Impala for the 06 refresh. Overall, I liked it much better, but rear seat room seemed to suffer. It's primarily why my wife picked an 06 Ford 500 over an 06 Impala for a company car. We looked at them both. I got in the rear of the Impala and it was bad, the 500 felt like a limo in comparison. I would swear the '00-05 version had more rear leg room.
But then again, Ford kind of did the same thing with the new Taurus, it doesn't feel like it has nearly as much room as the previous model.
Sounds like the very same model I had... Burgundy exterior and interior... Sort of a "modern woodie" look to it. Same tranny, too.
Up to that time, it was the nicest car I had ever owned.
That car posed a great dilemma to me. In 1978, I was fresh out of grad school and recently married, and the last thing I needed was another car payment.
It was obvious that I had been lucky with the car so far, but the odds were stacked against me, with all the rust issues and engine problems with the Vega and Astre (it still had the aluminum based engine, not the "iron Duke" engine).
Trade-in values were falling through the floor by that time. But, there wouldn't be any trade-in value if the engine failed...
No GM dealer I spoke with was very interested in taking the car on a trade, but a local Chrysler dealer offered me a very attractive trade-in amount on a 1978 Lebarron (Cloud Grey, but not a popular color at the time in that area) he had sitting on his lot at the time, so I decided to make the move before destiny decided for me.
In the end, we got 100K miles and 8 years out of the Chrysler, and the only service work done on it was the replacement of the front brakes and calipers, spark plugs and wires. It ended up being a really good reliable car.
Still, I wonder what happened to the Astre. Did it develop rust issues? Did the engine finally start burning oil like so many others did? If money had not been an object, I would have kept the car. I just couldn't afford to take such a risk at the time.
The '75's weren't bad for rust. Midway through the '74 run they put fender liners in them (finally). I can remember looking at a new one and for some strange reason sticking my hand up inside the fender and voila, inner fenders! I knew they hadn't had them earlier.
The 06+ model styling-wise was a huge gap, but should have been redone by 2011 at the latest. Too bad it didn't get the decent engine until the end.
I rented an Impala last year that had a whopping 4 miles on it. Moderate LT trim, 3.4, couldn't be more forgettable, some dubious ergonomics and materials - but I am picky. To the average non-car person, it might be fine, and can probably be had for a bargain price, especially when at about 2 years old.
I wouldn't get worked up about it Uplander because despite the posters Toyota has paid a huge price for these problems. They no longer can command any significant price premium over D3 which gives them less profit per vehicle than they used to get. However, as with most things in life its a double edged sword for D3 because Toyota still makes nice products and now sells them at D3 prices. This may be one of the reasons GM has been upping incentives.
I don't think GM is quite the basket case some suggest though. Chrysler is a basket case IMO with the baggage of consistently poor quality. Marchionne has an uphill battle, but he is the type who might just turn it around over the next few years. If he does, Mulally will drop into the Minor's - just kidding! I don't think Ford is as well off as some suggest either. Quality seems to vary between models and it sure seems like the Microsoft Synch and My Ford aren't panning out very well. The heavy move to Euro styling is still out for the jury as well. Their avoidance of bailout money will likely fade away as a buyer's factor in the next year or so also. GM was kind of a mess when it went BK, so I think you have to give it a few more years before making pronouncements on its future one way or the other, but I do get concerned about an appearance of complacency there sometimes.
That's pretty much how I viewed the article and the car. I remember attending the Chicago auto show and looking at a new '00 Impala and basically laughing out loud about how awful the interior looked. The joke was on me as we ended up having one in our driveway for a few years.
The less than stellar 3.4 that is found in most of them is far from refined as well
Yeah, I don't know if the groaning sounds that engine made will ever leave my memory.
To the average non-car person, it might be fine, and can probably be had for a bargain price, especially when at about 2 years old.
We had this debate a while back. If you just want a decent sized sedan to get from point A to point B. A 2 year old Impala would be tough to beat for the price.
IIRC, that's how they were on my wife's grand prix too and the Taurus has a similar setup too.
However, the new LaCrosse seems to be a much nicer car than her already nice LaCrosse. I guess you've got to give a little to get little.
Actually, it looks to me that you give up a little to get a lot when comparing the old LaCrosse to a new one.
...
2) GM does not honor warranties on cars before the bankruptcy (spoken as absolute fact here).
Well there was the case of (I think) police cruisers that weren't warranted, so at least there was some substance behind the claim. As you say, perhaps only in a special case. But not totally inane.
3) GM considers sales, movement of autos to a dealer.
Given that this occurs in a number of industries, and the dealers are independent businesspeople, it's not an unreasonable assumption. Especially when the company was overproducing and stuffing the sales channel. Not completely inane.
......
5) Ah, quit whining about hood props and trunk hinges; 4mm off is more important.
We don't know WHERE that 4mm was. It would have been nice to see a picture. I can tell you that on a panel gap that is only 4mm, a 4mm discrepancy would be VERY noticeable and poor looking. I'd say the jury is out on this one, it's far from inane. Hood props and trunk hinges are how many, perhaps most, cars are designed. NOT the same as misalignment at all.
6) 1.3 million BMW's and 700K Toyotas recalled last month; that's small potatoes compared to the Cruze steering wheel recall.
You might be correct. But there is also a degree of significance here. Loose steering wheels pale in comparison to a lot of other problems, don't you think? Any one month can be bad or good - in the "noise". What is the record by year? Certainly GM was a lot worse in the past. If they are (since BK) averaging fewer recalls than most on an *annual* basis, then kudos to them. But I wouldn't say this was "inane".
7) The "Buy 'Murican" crowd (and I quote) are racist.
Not gonna touch that one.
And the "GM reports sales as what it sells to dealers" and "GM doesn't honor warranties before the bankruptcy" were reported as factual, flat statements...not "I believe", "I think", or "I heard", even.
GM or any manufacturer counts the revenue as as it receives it/books it. The cars dealers receive are paid for via floor plan financing, so GM is getting revenue prior to those vehicles actually being sold to the end user.
Now that is different than actually counting monthly unit sales, but GM certainly is counting the revenue as it comes in.
I've worked in a manufacturer/dealer environment and trust me, the manufacturers want paid regardless of whether we sold the product or not. Sure, they also provided back end money (rebates) to help get inventory out the door if needed too.
general industry practice recognizes sales when it ships vehicles to dealers
GM is only doing what the rest are doing.
Regards,
OW
Also, why were people posting earlier, multiple times, that only GM did this?
My Malibu sat on another dealer's lot for four months before I bought it via a dealer trade. Are you telling me that my car showed up in reported February sales numbers, not June's when I bought it?
What people are forgetting is that the rest of the car is probably 2-3mm. We're talking about a 1mm difference that the anal and jaded (admitted it himself) reviewer noticed and then apparently got out a measuring tool.
I stand by my previous statements. In fact, I don't see why anyone reads auto magazines or reviews since it's all so far removed from reality. The only thing that matters is what it feels like when it's you driving it.
No, I'm telling you GM and the rest book their sales to the dealers when they are delivered to the dealer. New unit sales are reported when the cars are sold to consumers like you!
So, sales, profitability and all of the additional corporate metrics reported for GM and the rest actually are reporting the monetary sales (and accounting) based on dealers deliveries. That is why the previous discussions on inventory stuffing emerged. More inventory in a period means GM and the restmoved forward sales (not unit sales) even though the cars aren't actually sold yet to consumers like you!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW