NO, the author said it was visibly obvious when the hood was opened, so the measurement isn't the driver here. The big problem is GM provided a less than perfect example to a media outlet that addreses that vehicle's target customer. Shouldn't have happened regardless of the measurement. That was poor management and complacency, and it was inexcusable while GM is turning itself around. Leadership needs to hold someone responsible and implement procedures that prevents that from happening again. This is the NEW GM, not the old one. Also, the UAW leadership needs to get on its membership to build product on the line the consistently meets or exceeds its best competitors. GM can't thrive with lazy, give a s... employees on the line any more.
Your Malibu showed up on gm's income statement as revenue when it was invoiced to the dealer for taking delivery. It wasn't reported as a unit sale until the month you took delivery.
I never said GM was the only one who operated this way, the debate has been whether GM has been shoving more vehicles to the dealers than needed, thus inflating their quarterly revenue. GM dealer inventory levels suggest that may be the case.
For accurate inspection, there are measurement devices that are used to compare variations in paint thickness, panel alignment, etc. for anyone who desires to go to that level of detail. I know one enthusiast who uses a paintmeter before any purchase (he buys Audi/Porsche/BMW). He got money off one of his purchases by presenting wide variations to the paint at time of delivery!
The point is the press is doing their job to point out inconsistencies in their review process. (You can do it yourself before you pick up your car from the dealer too.)
It's another way the consumer can educate themselves regarding what they are really buying. Panel gaps and paint thickness too variable? Keep the car, Dear Salesperson! :shades:
The average person doesn't look at any of that BS.
Hear, hear. I've been hanging around car buffs my whole life, and I work with a Ford buff. I've never heard a soul--except here--say that would keep them from buying a car they wanted.
I want looks, features, availability of service even in the hinterlands, and value for dollar. A 4mm gap under the hood...'meh' doesn't even capture it.
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Hear, hear. I've been hanging around car buffs my whole life, and I work with a Ford buff. I've never heard a soul--except here--say that would keep them from buying a car they wanted.
I want looks, features, availability of service even in the hinterlands, and value for dollar. A 4mm gap under the hood...'meh' doesn't even capture it.
I'd likely never notice gap/finish issues under the hood, but I have passed on a few models based on poor exterior quality.
I bought a brand new '98 Ford SVT Contour. I didn't notice it on the test drive, but after I bought it, leaving the dealer , the top of the center console storage area fell off and the passenger airbag cover was horribly aligned.
I made the mistake of complaining about the air bag cover on the dash (I fixed the storage lid/arm rest, the screws were in the storage area), the dealer ordered a replacement airbag cover and the color was noticeably off.
But I really liked that car despite all of the build quality and reliability issues it had. It's the last car to leave me stranded too. Not even a month old and 2k miles, it completely quit on me out in the sticks. It only took for roadside assistance an hour or so to pick me up:(
I suspect the general customer really allows for a lot of minor inconsistencies in a car if the color, options and price are to his liking.
I would bet the same goes for recalls, too, unless the recall is something like the Ford Explorer/Firestone tire issue or the Toyota UA issue, where there's a real possibility of being injured or killed.
We all make a big deal about that stuff here, but I'd be willing to bet its small potatoes to the average guy. I guess one way to find out is the next time you have a friend or acquaintance who buys a new vehicle, do a search to see if any recalls are in place for the vehicle or the manufacturer, then ask the owner whether or not he's familiar with any of the specifics. Just guessing, but unless there is some sort of major recall in effect, I doubt the owner would know anything about it.
Recalls can be a good experience. The fuel pump needed replaced on my Suburban when there was a recall for the fuel pump wiring harness. The GM dealer only charged me for the pump since the recall required accessing the fuel pump anyway. So it save me a few hundred $.
So you'd rather have a car that depreciates like stale bread, and get a check for $5,000 rather than get $10,000 from the insurance company in repairs? If it has been a great car... wouldn't you want it fixed right (granted, I know, most body shops can't ever get it quite right). I'd rather have a car that doesn't depreciate like a rock.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
All of that is true, but something else is at work here unfortunately - many buyers are still leery of D3 quality, and reports of sloppy assembly just add to hesitation in going back to GM (even if they don't seem all that critical in nature to people knowledgeable about cars). The prices on Toyota, Nissan and Honda aren't that different these days. Since GM isn't selling at bargain prices, they need to match or beat Japan Inc. in everything, including build quality to regain former GM owners trust and business again. And the UAW workers need to get onboard too.
No Andres, its just that I would have been better off with a bit more damage so it was totaled. I'm going to get screwed at trade on it now since the damage amount is disclosed on title transfer and by carfax.
"Some critics will use this story to bring back to life the investigation into Chevy Volt fires earlier this year," Michelle Krebs, a senior analyst for Edmunds.com, said in a statement. "And while this incident deserves some scrutiny, especially since workers were hurt, the fact is that this is why new car technology undergoes rigorous testing — to try to ensure that episodes like this don't happen on the road."
One thing that confuses me is what sort of gap is noticeable when the hood is open? It sounds as if with the hood closed everything was great but with it open there was a small difference somewhere ( don't know if this was the case but the article is very vague in describing this misalignment, but was very clear the the problem was visible to him with the hood open, does not say it was visible with it closed). If this is the case is it really an issue or just something that the author could be picky about to say seei found something to show the car is bad. Is he this picky with every car he tests? ( I don't know as I have not read any of his other reviews, and I'm sorry but I don't believe that GM is the only manufacturer that can have something out of adjustment no one car made( and have seen fords and yes even Hondas and toyotas with mismatched gaps)). Please note I am not saying it is okay but am honestly enquiring if this reviewer has noted similar flaws in other reviews? It does seem that GM is held to a different standard somehow ( and maybe with their past reputation they should be but so should ford etc, and Toyota and Honda seem to get a free pass as it can't possibly be more that one car that has a fault, they are all perfect). Let's be honest no car is perfect, and all cars are so much better built that they were 10+ years ago that it isn't funny. Are you still more likely to get a flaw in a domestic? Maybe, but only by an ever slimmer margin ( and that is a good thing). Btw I have only ever owned one domestic so I am by no means a blinders on fan boy, I do think everyone is building better cars today than they did in the past, I think they are all getting to heavy ( and it seems the domestic makes and the Europeans lead the way in this), and as a result need too much power to move them ( can you imagine how much better fuel economy cars could get if they had held the line on weight, and only modestly increased the power? ). I think it amazing how quickly fuel economy seems to be increasing by e way, but think it could be even better with lighter cars and the same tech applied to them. Anyway just rambling now so I will stop.
My opinion is that Neil is kind of picky. I don't generally disagree with what you're saying. But as amanufacturer you need to be careful about those things on press corps models. You can bet the Japanese are. GM has had a few of these issues lately. I think their new models are really improving, but crap like that can hurt public image and perception. On the weight issue, I think some of the imports use more lightweight high tensile steel and aluminum. I expect everyone is transitioning that way over the next few years though.
Also, why were people posting earlier, multiple times, that only GM did this?
That's not what I remember. What I remember is that people were insinuating that GM was making its sales look better by stuffing the sales channel with product more than the other makes.
Do you have a link to a post where somebody said only GM counted sales by shipments to dealers when nobody else was counting that way? Or is that from *memory*?
Since you use the word 'sales', aren't 'sales', 'sales' to the ultimate consumer?
Frankly, I work for a living, so I'm not going to search that. That's what I remember...someone saying GM 'altered' sales that way.
My memory's not perfect, but I did remember that "Automobile" magazine stated the Sonata had four recalls, when people here stopped just short of calling me a liar...'til the magazine article showed up on the net...and also was disputed when I said that someone here stated that American car buffs were racist...but I did find that link too and posted it here.
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ZL-1 delays and "No-Comment" position at GM proves they haven't changed much in launch quality.
Best wait 1-2 years for new model launches at GM. Nothing changed there, now, did it?
Production of the ZL1 resumes next week now that the hold for a software issue has been lifted, and cars not yet built will see some adjustments on their options packages.
Here's the Camaro launch in a nutshell when it was re-introduced 2009-10 after discontinuation in the early 2000's:
Actually I think the fact they delayed the launch shows that things have changed, would you rather they sent the cars out? It seems to me that the cant win with you, if they send the cars out with a problem ( the wrong thing Btw and the way GM used to do things) you cry foul, if they find a problem and delay the launch until they fix it you cry foul. Yes in a perfect world there would be no problems ever and there would be no reason to check any cars for quality issues, but it is not a perfect world, and in this case they found an issue with something in the software ( per your quote) in either late preproduction units or early production units, and instead of sending them to the customers they delayed the launch until the issue was solved, the right way to do it, in this case there QA procedure is working, does it look great no, but putting defective units in customers hands would look ( and be) even worse. It isn't like no other manufactures ( of any products) have never delayed the launch to ensure that the products is right before it reaches the consumer, this normally goes over much better than having faulty product reach consumers. If there are more problems after the cars get to the customer then you can complain, but in this case GM actually did the right thing.
There are no doubt still some skeletons, but bringing out the proctoscope for them while putting the blinders on for everyone else isn't very productive.
A "fanboy" is someone who blames a supplier for a recall instead of the manufacturer, for example.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Well, then, if you're going to insist in participating in a forum where you're not going to invest the time to verify your statements, where others ARE willing to do exactly that, then you should be prepared to get "called out" quite a lot.
It does seem as if it's a "lose-lose" situation, but I agree that holding the delivery until the problem was resolved was, in this case, the correct thing to do.
But I don't discount what others have posted as well. The domestics dug themselves a big hole, and getting out should never have been viewed as being easy. When you're on top of your game, people let minor things slide... It's a different story after you've fallen and are attempting to get back up.... Especially when you're using their tax $$$ to do it.
Quite a lot of folks resent the bailout. Personally, I can't say what I would have done if it was my decision, but I suspect given the circumstances I probably would have done it as well.
While I can honestly say I have only seen rare postings that suggest (to me, anyway) that the poster simply hates the domestics, primarily due to the bailout, the fact is there are a lot out there that do exactly that.
Couple that with some really bad owner experiences over the years, and that's a lot of ill will and disgust with the big-3.
IMO, the domestics (yes, even Ford, since they indirectly benefited and fully supported the bailouts) need to place their image on a pedestal and be ultra-sensitive to everything they do that is exposed to the public eye.
One way to do that is to deliver a car for review that has been gone over with a fine-tooth comb. When you know your product is going to be examined under a magnifying glass, it's just poor practice to deliver a product that's less than perfect, or at least as perfect as it can be.
The point with the 4MM offset is this: modern manufacturing technology has eliminated that level of "tolerance" between metal panels on a car. It's not unreasonable to expect a modern vehicle to have a better fitment than that, and that's the point I think the reviewer was making.
Yes, assembly problems can arise, and they aren't isolated to any particular manufacturer. That's not the issue here, IMO.
If you're asking one of the prettiest girls you would like to date out to the prom, you're probably going to dress as sharply as possible... A lot of "attention to detail".
I think that's what most of the posters that are critical of GM are saying. I know that's what I'm saying, anyway...
What makes lithium batteries highly volatile is their reaction to certain contaminants imbedded within the battery itself, which was what happened to the laptop batteries when they were manufactured.
Inconsistent quality control allowed contamination, which resulted in overheating, which, well, you know....
I look forward to seeing this put in context with other recalls of late. I know you'll do that
50K is a big number, but pales next to several Japanese and German recalls of late.
I had a complete windshield wiper (arm and all) come off in my hand one time. It was on my sister's 2001 Mitsubishi SUV (can't recall model name) in Feb. '03, when I was helping her move.
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I don't know the deal on "press" cars; I'd rather see the reviewers grab one off the dealer lot but that's not easily done. Best we can do around here is get one for a long term test, and some of those are loaners from the manufacturer.
IMO, the domestics (yes, even Ford, since they indirectly benefited and fully supported the bailouts) need to place their image on a pedestal
I think a lot of that may be happening, unless the source has blinders on due to their location.
That's a pretty good article, but I do disagree with his reference to Ford, saying "They didn't take the money."
Ford didn't take THAT money, but they took money earlier, and there's NO question they benefited directly from the bailouts, as well as fully supporting them.
IMO... If we're going to discuss the domestics and their relationship to how they interacted with government assistance, as well as how they are viewed by the public, we owe it to ourselves to ensure we keep a level playing field.
I also agree with you in that selecting a random vehicle off a dealer lot for testing and review gives the best insight into the true quality and construction of a vehicle.
I agree with most of what you are saying, I did put in one response ( perhaps the one that for whatever reason wouldn't send) that the issue although minor is one that because of previous perception ( and reality) needs to be addressed and more care taken, but unfortunately things will still happen, it is how they are addressed that will become more and more important. Not releasing a flawed product before it is working properly is only one step in the process of addressing it of course, you also need to check your quality procedures to see how the flaw made it that far in the development process without being caught and address that as well, hopefully GM ( and all the auto manufactures) as doing this step as well. As for the bail- out it was not just the domestics that indirectly benefitted, or you would not have had Toyota and Honda supporting the bail-outs too. I too am not sure what I would have done, as I do not have all the data that hopefully both presidents ( and Canadian governments) had to make their decisions ( and none of the posters or people for or against the bail-outs do either). I do think that if the financial crisis had not been occurring at the same time a more "normal" bankruptcy process would have been better, that said with the info I do have ( which is only what was available publicly at the time) the north American economy would have been badly affected by the failure of the companies, so hopefully the right decision was made. It is in the past for me, and I do think that the cars the domestics have come out with since then are very competitive and would be cross shopping them if I were in the market along with their Japanese, Korean, and European competitors.
In regards to your analysis on the bailouts, you echoed what Bob Lutz said.
When confronted about not using the normal bankruptcy channels, he stated that in a different time that may have been a solution, but because of the housing/financial Wall Street debacle, there wasn't any "private money" available in sufficient quantities at the time. I think he's probably correct there.
Where I disagreed with him was his statement that the government pretty much caused the smash-up of GM in the first place. Personally, I have a very different view of how GM got to where it was then.
For the most part, on average I think the big-3 do indeed have models comparable to the competition, and I think they are doing much better in that regard.
You don't want to go into a Ch. 11 without having financing lined up to carry you through the process (those "new" lenders get paid back first, assuming the company pulls out okay).
And if you can't get the money, there's little use filing since you're just going to wind up liquidating.
Ford had enough assets to hock to carry them through the lean times, but they sure supported the GM/Chrysler bailout.
My opinion is that if the Press Corp Model has flaws, then the flaws are likely 10 times worse on the real everyday models sold to the public. The Press Corp model is hand picked and selected for reviews by the manufacturer, it is like when you go to a home development, and they show you the "model" home which obviously had higher QA/QC and specification tolerances than the models they actually sell you.
That is why CR is so great, they randomly buy their own vehicles for testing from random dealerships just like you and I would.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
the north American economy would have been badly affected by the failure of the companies,
---------------------->>>>>>>
I on the other hand, believe that the American Economy was indeed BADLY affected, but I believe it to be by the enacting of bailouts to save failed companies. There is no doubt in my mind that the economy is sufferring right now, in significant part due to the bailouts. We've extended the pain for years!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I ran across this "issue" described below while scanning for how the new Camaro has been accepted by the public.
I have actually seen the issue described in the bulletin, especially on the couple of orange colored Camaros I've seen lately. I thought it was simply a poor paint match from a 2nd rate body shop after the door or rear quarter panel had been damaged and repainted, and a bit odd for 2 cars to have the same issue.
I understand and accept the explanation given by GM (the complete document has pictures that assist in the explanation of the "issue").
What I don't understand is why GM would allow paint colors/types on a new vehicle that would give the impression of a poorly matched paint job. To be fair, I can't see the illusion on the black Camaro that someone owns in the same apt. complex where my daughter lives, so its definitely color sensitive. Black definitely looks good on a new Camaro.
Also, there are complaints of lack of color/paint around the inside of the headlight trim. That's not perception.... its missing paint. Perhaps thats more common on all new vehicles than I might think. Since its not seen easily, I could probably live with that.
But... Perhaps its just me, but if I'm spending $30+ large on a vehicle, I wouldn't think it was too cool to have to tell friends that "No, the paint job's perfect, you're just looking at it the wrong way".
Service Information
Document ID: 2346049 ________________________________________ #09-08-51-004: Information on Door and Quarter Panel Paint Appearance - (Sep 10, 2009) Subject: Information on Door and Quarter Panel Paint Appearance Models: 2010 Chevrolet Camaro
________________________________________ On the 2010 Camaro, the shade of paint on the doors may appear to be different than the shade of paint on the quarter panels. This appearance varies in severity based on different viewing angles and light conditions. This perception is more apparent with certain colors. Use this bulletin to help the customer understand the design of their vehicle.
Paint Process
At the time of vehicle manufacture, the complete sheet metal body of the car is painted at the same time (the body, hood, decklid and doors). The panels (doors, hood and decklid) are attached to the vehicle and in the proper position when it goes through the plant paint process. All of the panels receive the undercoat layers and top coat finishes using the same material, application process and final bake process. This continuity of process ensures a uniform paint application to the entire vehicle. The result of this extensive process is a seamless paint match over the entire vehicle. The only major exterior panels that do not get painted during this process are the bumper fascias. The bumper fascias receive a flexible paint application using a unique process. All of the paint used in the paint process is matched to a paint color standard, ensuring that the colors are consistent from batch to batch. This color standard also ensures consistency from vehicle to vehicle.
Vehicle Design
On the Camaro, the door to quarter panel angle match is the design intent. The geometry of the quarter panel provides a sporty definition and highlights the depth of the design. It is intended to show the color variation created by angling the body panels a few degrees.
For most, if not all, buyers of the Verano the acceleration will be suitable.
___________
That statement is impossible given the Verano's price. If it was 15K, then yeah, the acceleration is acceptable. Since it's at least 10K more then that from what I've seen, the 2013 "stronger" engine is sorely needed to justify the price.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
but I think that's one downside to today's tighter tolerances _____________________________
If a manufacturer can't handle the heat, they should get out of the Kitchen. I've always admired Honda for having very tight tolerances for decades now. Never had an alignment issue on a Honda that wasn't a body shops fault (after a crash).
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
It's not a made up rule. Although I don't have a "horsepower per dollar spent requirement" there is nothing in the Verano that would make me accept a non-turbocharged 4 cylinder engine with 180 HP in a heavy car like that.
If those kinds of figures make Buick "premium," then Honda must be equal to Caddy, and Acura above them all.
The problem isn't anyone's "buying rules," the problem for GM is the competition providing MORE POWER, with MORE Fuel Efficiency, with LESS weight, for less dollars! I'll take the Hyundai Sonata's 2.0T over the Verano engine anyday of the week.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
I never said GM was the only one who operated this way, the debate has been whether GM has been shoving more vehicles to the dealers than needed, thus inflating their quarterly revenue. GM dealer inventory levels suggest that may be the case.
The point is the press is doing their job to point out inconsistencies in their review process. (You can do it yourself before you pick up your car from the dealer too.)
Regards,
OW
Its not just the D3. My 2012 LaCrosse has as good or better panel gaps than either my 09 Genesis or 06 Avalon had.
The average person doesn't look at any of that BS.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic
Regards,
OW
Just a car, just a car.
You got that straight!
Regards,
OW
Hear, hear. I've been hanging around car buffs my whole life, and I work with a Ford buff. I've never heard a soul--except here--say that would keep them from buying a car they wanted.
I want looks, features, availability of service even in the hinterlands, and value for dollar. A 4mm gap under the hood...'meh' doesn't even capture it.
I want looks, features, availability of service even in the hinterlands, and value for dollar. A 4mm gap under the hood...'meh' doesn't even capture it.
I'd likely never notice gap/finish issues under the hood, but I have passed on a few models based on poor exterior quality.
I bought a brand new '98 Ford SVT Contour. I didn't notice it on the test drive, but after I bought it, leaving the dealer , the top of the center console storage area fell off and the passenger airbag cover was horribly aligned.
I made the mistake of complaining about the air bag cover on the dash (I fixed the storage lid/arm rest, the screws were in the storage area), the dealer ordered a replacement airbag cover and the color was noticeably off.
But I really liked that car despite all of the build quality and reliability issues it had. It's the last car to leave me stranded too. Not even a month old and 2k miles, it completely quit on me out in the sticks. It only took for roadside assistance an hour or so to pick me up:(
I would bet the same goes for recalls, too, unless the recall is something like the Ford Explorer/Firestone tire issue or the Toyota UA issue, where there's a real possibility of being injured or killed.
We all make a big deal about that stuff here, but I'd be willing to bet its small potatoes to the average guy. I guess one way to find out is the next time you have a friend or acquaintance who buys a new vehicle, do a search to see if any recalls are in place for the vehicle or the manufacturer, then ask the owner whether or not he's familiar with any of the specifics. Just guessing, but unless there is some sort of major recall in effect, I doubt the owner would know anything about it.
'Extreme testing' blamed on prototype battery blast at GM Tech Center (Detroit News)
Also, why were people posting earlier, multiple times, that only GM did this?
That's not what I remember. What I remember is that people were insinuating that GM was making its sales look better by stuffing the sales channel with product more than the other makes.
Do you have a link to a post where somebody said only GM counted sales by shipments to dealers when nobody else was counting that way? Or is that from *memory*?
Frankly, I work for a living, so I'm not going to search that. That's what I remember...someone saying GM 'altered' sales that way.
My memory's not perfect, but I did remember that "Automobile" magazine stated the Sonata had four recalls, when people here stopped just short of calling me a liar...'til the magazine article showed up on the net...and also was disputed when I said that someone here stated that American car buffs were racist...but I did find that link too and posted it here.
Best wait 1-2 years for new model launches at GM. Nothing changed there, now, did it?
Production of the ZL1 resumes next week now that the hold for a software issue has been lifted, and cars not yet built will see some adjustments on their options packages.
Here's the Camaro launch in a nutshell when it was re-introduced 2009-10 after discontinuation in the early 2000's:
Quality Control Seems Shaky
Let me know how things really changed at GM....besides abandoning debt and owing the Government.
It's nice to support local jobs for a great company!
Regards,
OW
You laughed about the few launch issues with the Camaro...'til sales shot it out of the park.
I don't even like the Camaro, but I'm able to give credit where it is due.
That is a lesson that could sure be spread around in this place.
I like the Camaro. However, the company needs constructive criticism to keep it improving.
No use in blindly defending every issue GM has. They continue to reminds us that some skeletons still exist.
Regards,
OW
A "fanboy" is someone who blames a supplier for a recall instead of the manufacturer, for example.
But I don't discount what others have posted as well. The domestics dug themselves a big hole, and getting out should never have been viewed as being easy. When you're on top of your game, people let minor things slide... It's a different story after you've fallen and are attempting to get back up.... Especially when you're using their tax $$$ to do it.
Quite a lot of folks resent the bailout. Personally, I can't say what I would have done if it was my decision, but I suspect given the circumstances I probably would have done it as well.
While I can honestly say I have only seen rare postings that suggest (to me, anyway) that the poster simply hates the domestics, primarily due to the bailout, the fact is there are a lot out there that do exactly that.
Couple that with some really bad owner experiences over the years, and that's a lot of ill will and disgust with the big-3.
IMO, the domestics (yes, even Ford, since they indirectly benefited and fully supported the bailouts) need to place their image on a pedestal and be ultra-sensitive to everything they do that is exposed to the public eye.
One way to do that is to deliver a car for review that has been gone over with a fine-tooth comb. When you know your product is going to be examined under a magnifying glass, it's just poor practice to deliver a product that's less than perfect, or at least as perfect as it can be.
The point with the 4MM offset is this: modern manufacturing technology has eliminated that level of "tolerance" between metal panels on a car. It's not unreasonable to expect a modern vehicle to have a better fitment than that, and that's the point I think the reviewer was making.
Yes, assembly problems can arise, and they aren't isolated to any particular manufacturer. That's not the issue here, IMO.
If you're asking one of the prettiest girls you would like to date out to the prom, you're probably going to dress as sharply as possible... A lot of "attention to detail".
I think that's what most of the posters that are critical of GM are saying. I know that's what I'm saying, anyway...
Inconsistent quality control allowed contamination, which resulted in overheating, which, well, you know....
I look forward to seeing this put in context with other recalls of late. I know you'll do that
50K is a big number, but pales next to several Japanese and German recalls of late.
I had a complete windshield wiper (arm and all) come off in my hand one time. It was on my sister's 2001 Mitsubishi SUV (can't recall model name) in Feb. '03, when I was helping her move.
Seems like these kinds of recalls are becoming more frequent these days...
IMO, the domestics (yes, even Ford, since they indirectly benefited and fully supported the bailouts) need to place their image on a pedestal
I think a lot of that may be happening, unless the source has blinders on due to their location.
New auto era leaves no time for swagger (Detroit News)
Ford didn't take THAT money, but they took money earlier, and there's NO question they benefited directly from the bailouts, as well as fully supporting them.
IMO... If we're going to discuss the domestics and their relationship to how they interacted with government assistance, as well as how they are viewed by the public, we owe it to ourselves to ensure we keep a level playing field.
I also agree with you in that selecting a random vehicle off a dealer lot for testing and review gives the best insight into the true quality and construction of a vehicle.
Isn't that what CR does?
http://www.freep.com/article/20120412/BUSINESS0103/204120548/Jeep-Wrangler-fire-- probe-expands
As for the bail- out it was not just the domestics that indirectly benefitted, or you would not have had Toyota and Honda supporting the bail-outs too.
I too am not sure what I would have done, as I do not have all the data that hopefully both presidents ( and Canadian governments) had to make their decisions ( and none of the posters or people for or against the bail-outs do either).
I do think that if the financial crisis had not been occurring at the same time a more "normal" bankruptcy process would have been better, that said with the info I do have ( which is only what was available publicly at the time) the north American economy would have been badly affected by the failure of the companies, so hopefully the right decision was made. It is in the past for me, and I do think that the cars the domestics have come out with since then are very competitive and would be cross shopping them if I were in the market along with their Japanese, Korean, and European competitors.
When confronted about not using the normal bankruptcy channels, he stated that in a different time that may have been a solution, but because of the housing/financial Wall Street debacle, there wasn't any "private money" available in sufficient quantities at the time. I think he's probably correct there.
Where I disagreed with him was his statement that the government pretty much caused the smash-up of GM in the first place. Personally, I have a very different view of how GM got to where it was then.
For the most part, on average I think the big-3 do indeed have models comparable to the competition, and I think they are doing much better in that regard.
And if you can't get the money, there's little use filing since you're just going to wind up liquidating.
Ford had enough assets to hock to carry them through the lean times, but they sure supported the GM/Chrysler bailout.
That is why CR is so great, they randomly buy their own vehicles for testing from random dealerships just like you and I would.
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I on the other hand, believe that the American Economy was indeed BADLY affected, but I believe it to be by the enacting of bailouts to save failed companies. There is no doubt in my mind that the economy is sufferring right now, in significant part due to the bailouts. We've extended the pain for years!
Regards,
OW
"all three companies will need to lean forward in refining their business and squelching complacency."
"Or they'll pay a price — again." Guess who pays in the end??
Regards,
OW
I have actually seen the issue described in the bulletin, especially on the couple of orange colored Camaros I've seen lately. I thought it was simply a poor paint match from a 2nd rate body shop after the door or rear quarter panel had been damaged and repainted, and a bit odd for 2 cars to have the same issue.
I understand and accept the explanation given by GM (the complete document has pictures that assist in the explanation of the "issue").
What I don't understand is why GM would allow paint colors/types on a new vehicle that would give the impression of a poorly matched paint job. To be fair, I can't see the illusion on the black Camaro that someone owns in the same apt. complex where my daughter lives, so its definitely color sensitive. Black definitely looks good on a new Camaro.
Also, there are complaints of lack of color/paint around the inside of the headlight trim. That's not perception.... its missing paint. Perhaps thats more common on all new vehicles than I might think. Since its not seen easily, I could probably live with that.
But... Perhaps its just me, but if I'm spending $30+ large on a vehicle, I wouldn't think it was too cool to have to tell friends that "No, the paint job's perfect, you're just looking at it the wrong way".
Service Information
Document ID: 2346049
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#09-08-51-004: Information on Door and Quarter Panel Paint Appearance - (Sep 10, 2009)
Subject: Information on Door and Quarter Panel Paint Appearance
Models: 2010 Chevrolet Camaro
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On the 2010 Camaro, the shade of paint on the doors may appear to be different than the shade of paint on the quarter panels. This appearance varies in severity based on different viewing angles and light conditions. This perception is more apparent with certain colors. Use this bulletin to help the customer understand the design of their vehicle.
Paint Process
At the time of vehicle manufacture, the complete sheet metal body of the car is painted at the same time (the body, hood, decklid and doors). The panels (doors, hood and decklid) are attached to the vehicle and in the proper position when it goes through the plant paint process. All of the panels receive the undercoat layers and top coat finishes using the same material, application process and final bake process. This continuity of process ensures a uniform paint application to the entire vehicle. The result of this extensive process is a seamless paint match over the entire vehicle. The only major exterior panels that do not get painted during this process are the bumper fascias. The bumper fascias receive a flexible paint application using a unique process. All of the paint used in the paint process is matched to a paint color standard, ensuring that the colors are consistent from batch to batch. This color standard also ensures consistency from vehicle to vehicle.
Vehicle Design
On the Camaro, the door to quarter panel angle match is the design intent. The geometry of the quarter panel provides a sporty definition and highlights the depth of the design. It is intended to show the color variation created by angling the body panels a few degrees.
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See the entire document...
http://www.nebraskaautobody.com/filedownloads/2010CamaroColorMatch.pdf
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That statement is impossible given the Verano's price. If it was 15K, then yeah, the acceleration is acceptable. Since it's at least 10K more then that from what I've seen, the 2013 "stronger" engine is sorely needed to justify the price.
How many Veranos have you driven?
None?
This sounds like another of those made up rules as to what is which for someone's idea of a certain car requirement. Horsepuckies.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
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If a manufacturer can't handle the heat, they should get out of the Kitchen. I've always admired Honda for having very tight tolerances for decades now. Never had an alignment issue on a Honda that wasn't a body shops fault (after a crash).
It's not a made up rule. Although I don't have a "horsepower per dollar spent requirement" there is nothing in the Verano that would make me accept a non-turbocharged 4 cylinder engine with 180 HP in a heavy car like that.
If those kinds of figures make Buick "premium," then Honda must be equal to Caddy, and Acura above them all.
The problem isn't anyone's "buying rules," the problem for GM is the competition providing MORE POWER, with MORE Fuel Efficiency, with LESS weight, for less dollars! I'll take the Hyundai Sonata's 2.0T over the Verano engine anyday of the week.
Wait a minute...didn't you say they'd be giving rebates on the ZL-1's as of a couple months ago?
Hey, the 2011 Sonata had some launch issues as well.