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We don't always get along, and our views may contradict with each other. But nevertheless, it's holiday season. Have fun, guys
The HS250h will just be a re-badge of the Camry Hybrid. It better get better mileage or the Fusion/Milan hybrid will cut into the sales. Unlike the Volt none of these are Plug-in Hybrids. Until they actually go on sale the Volt will be GM vaporware. The key being new battery technology that is virtually untested in any vehicles. Li-Ion or whatever the latest combination to be tried, has NO longevity history. Even the Prius with NiMH battery, has not reached its expected life cycle of 10 years.
As far as GM and hybrids go they are a farce. I owned one for a short time and the only thing it offered that was practical was a heavy duty 110 volt AC supply for running power tools or emergency power. I hated the auto stop feature as it would stop going around a corner and then surge when you tried to accelerate. Bad in the rain. Glad I was able to get a decent price selling it.
Bill
So two reasons Ford may build more in Mexico. Cost of labor and quality of workmanship. I would bet you get less complaining out of Mexican workers also. They are Union in Mexico. So that should please Rock & DD.
That's not to say Detroit isn't already saving a bundle by moving to Mexico. Mexican assembly workers average just $3.50 an hour plus benefits, compared with about $27 hourly plus benefits at a GM or Ford plant in the U.S.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_15/b4029081.htm
That's not to say Detroit isn't already saving a bundle by moving to Mexico. Mexican assembly workers average just $3.50 an hour plus benefits, compared with about $27 hourly plus benefits at a GM or Ford plant in the U.S.
Look at the savings Ford realizes by having their vehicles built there! The benefits are added to that $3.50/hr., true, but how much could the bene's be? Interesting and telling bit of data there.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Or by my new dentist friend in Sonora, Mexico?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Actually the government has not yet decided how the money will be distributed. Once they figure it out the automakers can then put in proposals and ask for it. But perhaps we are talking something different. The $25 billion for alternative energy research, etc. was not approved until September of this year. I do not know of, and could not find anything from 2007 pertaining to this.
http://blog.mlive.com/chronicle/2008/09/auto_industry_to_receive_25_bi.html
And as far as shutting down plants we will see more of it. GM up to this year had to keep plants open due to the fact that even if they closed a plant they still had to pay the workers even if they were sitting home. This last contract allowed massive hourly buy outs and the elimination of job banks.
GMAC LCC won Federal Reserve approval on Wednesday to become a bank holding company, giving it access to government lending programs, after owners General Motors and Cerberus agreed to cut their stakes.
GM agreed to reduce its 49 percent stake in GMAC to no more than 10 percent, while Cerberus, which owns 51 percent, will distribute equity interests to investors to get its control to no more than 14.9 percent of voting shares.
"GMAC believes becoming a bank holding company is the best long-term solution to provide automotive and mortgage financing to consumers and businesses, including auto dealers," spokeswoman Gina Proia said.
GM's dealers had said that their customers were having difficulty getting credit from GMAC to buy new cars and were pressing for a swift resolution of GMAC's bid to become a bank.
Detroit-based GMAC already has a banking unit that offers certificates of deposit and online savings accounts, but becoming a bank holding company will make it eligible for government support, including guarantees of new debt that it issues. The company could also apply for billions of dollars of capital under the government's $700 billion financial rescue program. ...
http://www.gmacmortgage.com/index.html
http://www.gmacbank.com/index.html
And then they have a GMAC financial group that offers "Demand Notes" that when I call the above link they say they have nothing to do with the Demand notes, yet the logos look the same.
http://www.gmacfs.com/us/en/business/investing/demandnotes/
Which of these 3 are getting the money and becoming a bank?
Well I answered my own question. Per the media GMAC FINANCIAL will be getting the money. I believe that when Cerberus bought GMAC from GM they only purchased the Financial part and not the bank/Mortgage part? So now there will be two GMAC banks?? So confusing.
But now I found a link to GMAC bank/Mortgage from the GMAC financial website and this:
GMAC Financial Services is a global finance company operating in and servicing North America, South America, Europe and Asia-Pacific. GMAC specializes in automotive finance, real estate finance, insurance, commercial finance and online banking. As of Dec. 31, 2007, the organization had $249 billion in assets and serviced 15 million customers.
Founded in 1919 as a wholly owned subsidiary of General Motors Corp., GMAC was established to provide GM dealers with the financing necessary to acquire and maintain vehicle inventories and to provide customers a means by which to finance vehicle purchases. The company's products and services have since been expanded and now include three primary lines of business: automotive financing, real estate financing and insurance.
On Nov. 30, 2006, GM sold a 51 percent controlling interest in GMAC to a consortium of investors led by Cerberus Capital Management, L.P., a private investment firm, and included Citigroup Inc., Aozora Bank Ltd. and a subsidiary of The PNC Financial Services Group, Inc.
So it looks like all of the above is one company with 51% owned by Cerberus and 49% by GM. So the first link says they are a bank. What changed to make GMAC a bank that can get money? What is different that they can call themselves a bank holding bank??
FYI, GM got $13 billion for the 51% they sold to Cerberus in 2006.
If GM held 51% I would say it would get out since it would help GM. At 10% with non voting shares I believe they will have little recourse?
In an effort to prevent a delay of the new Camaro, GM has filed a lawsuit against Cadence Innovation LLC, accusing the company of “holding hostage” the parts it needs to put the car into production. The suit demands Cadence immediately hand over the parts and equipment required for a new supplier to take over. GM says it needs to have a new supplier in place by January 12th, or it will not be able to begin production of the Camaro on schedule.
“Even one day’s disruption in supply of certain component parts could cause a shutdown of GM assembly operations, disrupting not only GM’s business, but the operations of countless suppliers, dealers, customers and other stakeholders,” the lawsuit states.
My company for example has our R&D people sourcing materials from a 2nd supplier even if we don't use them. We have them as a backup. On some of our parts we buy 50% from Supplier 1 and 50% from Supplier 2 to keep both in business, and to play one against the other if needed.
GM then is really vulnerable to any strike. Or what if the plant making those parts has a fire and burns down tomorrow? Maybe GM ought to manage better, and stop suing others because of their stupidity.
And the truth to be told, there are more "foreign" plants operating on U.S. soil than ther are GM plants. Canada isn't the U.S. auto industry. Mexico isn't either. China is pretty much the anti-industry(think Anti-Christ for appropriate emphasis here).
Tennessee and Georgia? Last I checked, those are inside the U.S. Yes, it's a "Japanese" make, but the reality is is that the U.S. auto industry has been taken over just like the TV and electronics industries were. And last I checked, people seem awfully happy to buy those iPods. And Hondas and Toyotas.
Lastly - I bring this up again because the reality is that it doesn't matter where the car company's headquarters is. All that matters is where it's made. Those plants generate hundreds of millions of dollars a year in wages, upkeep, taxes, and other money just to keep running. And 99% of it is staying in the local economy. Honda is making a couple of thousand profit over cost on most cars that it sells. Most of that is eaten up by marketing and other costs, though. Their actual "profit" is very small. More than 50% of the entire cost of the car that you buy, though, is going into the pockets of the workers or someone who works or services or supplies the plant.
The NUUMI plant in Fremont, CA. Generates a total of one billion dollars to the state economy. That's GM and Toyota working together, but it's not the norm. It's buying "Not made in the U.S." that's killing our industry. Not failing to support GM, Ford, and Chrysler.
Know why the PC market isn't subject to the same worries? Standardization. Why is the automotive industry not standardized, even within brands? Don't know, but engine mounts on a Malibu and Impala aren't even the same. In retrospect, faced with the loss of possible "critical" suppliers, this may have been a major mistake, having so little standardization.
So the Camaro is a niche product. The Volt will be a niche product. With perhaps the exception of the Malibu, where are the profitable non-niche products at GM, besides trucks and SUVs? Where is the mainstream competitive small car? Will that be the Cruze?
If I could afford it I'd buy a new Chevy. I would like the R&D part spent in this country. Honda pays a paltry $320 wages to the american assembly worker for making their car here. Honda demands that their suppliers from Japan come over to Ohio to make the parts that go in their cars that are assembled here. There is very little R&D by the transplants here in USA. GM sells 9 million cars a year at $25000 avg. That is 225 Billion dollars in sales per year, worldwide. Honda has their eye on that!
The better plan?
Obama talks about a 700 Billion stimulus package to create jobs. We are all pissed because GM will get a $9 billion loan to keep 900,000 jobs. If Obama's plan is as good as GM's at job creation, his stimulus package will create 90 million jobs. 20 times as many as we could use.
Honda pays a paltry $320 wages to the american assembly worker for making their car here.
Assembly is a very *small* part of the labor going into making a car. Other US labor used in Honda vehicles:
- Parts manufacturing (most of it in US for many Honda cars)
- Engine plants
- Parts transport
- Assembly plant maintenance, overhead, management
- Parts plant maintenance, overhead, management
- Plant electricity, water, sewage, gas, etc. - all provided by US workers
- Honda USA in California who puts together marketing and handles corporate customer service
- Transportation of Hondas from assembly plants to the dealers on trains and trucks, all US labor
- Honda dealerships: sales, administrative, service, maintenance, etc.
- Honda advertising put together by advertising agencies in the US
We are all pissed because GM will get a $9 billion loan to keep 900,000 jobs.
GM does not have 900,000 jobs. You are drinking the UAW kool-aid. We keep hearing about how GM is labor competitive with the D3. So that means GM only pays around $320 labor per vehicle assembled, just like Honda.
If you want to compare apples to apples then include all of the Honda-affected jobs just like all the GM -affected jobs. Not this foolish $320 vs. 900,000 jobs comparison which is total nonsense. Use the same comparison rather than slanting your argument so ridiculously that it means nothing. Or does the real argument not hold water?
If Obama's plan is as good as GM's at job creation, his stimulus package will create 90 million jobs. 20 times as many as we could use.
GM is good at job creation? Tell me where a $9billion loan is going to *create* ANY jobs. GM has been killing jobs left and right for 30 years. At least in this country, not so in China, Mexico, and Europe. You're probably trying to imply that a $9billion loan saves 900K jobs. Obama is trying to create jobs. GM is trying not to lose tons of jobs, which is a big difference.
Using the same flawed logic as above, you also forget that the $9billion is just a down payment on $100billion or more to keep General Titanic Motors afloat for a few years until they eventually fail unless they make radical changes that they have not yet made. Like focusing more on quality vehicles rather than how many brands and dealers they can have.
GM has had to cheapen its vehicles so much in the past 20 years to stay cost competitive that the quality difference showed. GM has lost over half its market share. If you are one of the few surviving UAW workers then the protected life has been good. All others have been screwed. Think of all the GM dealerships' staff that have lost their jobs over the past 5 years due to the UAW sucking all the resources for itself. There's some real American pride.
You're on the verge of touching a very sensitive issue here. Just a friendly advice, careful with the choice of words there.
I agree with the "built in US" issue. With so many parts of GM cars, hell all D3 cars for that matter, produced abroad, plus some built elsewhere then shipped to US, I wonder if the products still qualify as American made.
And what exactly is the penalty for fudging that, anyway? Probably nothing more than a slap on the wrist.
GM by itself doesnt have 900k jobs, it's the total of factory workforce, parts suppliers, dealers, etc,etc that leads to a total of hundreds of thousands. I personally believe that only about half of that number will actually lose jobs, and not even for that long.
But 900k is a ridiculous number imo. Like I mentioned earlier so many parts for GM cars are made overseas, I cant really believe some of those "parts suppliers" even exist.
My prediction: some parts suppliers will still live, supplying parts to other makers instead. Some dealers will fold, a few start selling other brands, the same as assembly workers. Another point, within a few years companies will come in and cherry pick the GM assets, then a new company emerges, employees will be called back. The good apples will stay alive, the bad ones... oh well, who cares about them anyway.
If Obama's plan is as good as GM's at job creation...
What the??????? LMAO, nice joke, Dave... goodness, this is too hilarious... :P :P :P
We have to protect the jobs, and not just the "big 3". Every plant that makes a car in the U.S. needs to be seen by the public as vital. For instance, if the NUUMI plant in California were to close, that would take one billion a year in primary and secondary costs out of the economy here. If Honda's plants closed and stopped making cars, it would be a similar disaster.
I think what needs to be done is a big media campaign. One that puts the focus on "Made in the U.S.A." and not where the company's headquarters is. And, yes, it should give GM and Ford grief for making vehicles in Mexico and then whining to The Government about needing money to prop up those foreign interests.
I guess the only way to return investments and manufacturing jobs back to US is to lower costs again. This includes labor wages and other operational aspects, at least back to the point where it can become competitive again with outsourcing. How that can happen is something I'm honestly still trying to figure out
Then, we can create jobs the old fashioned way because an honest living can by the goods others create and make. We can't pay $4.50/gal. for milk and tax people at 30% and expect them to spend money to by the products other people make. Unless you buy everything on credit and care less when you can pay it back. Sound familiar?
Regards,
OW
Top 20 Vehicle Sales YTD vs. 2007
Model YTD 2008 % Chng 2007
Ford F - Series PU 473,933 -25.4
Chevrolet Silverado PU 431,725 -23.5
Toyota Camry / Solara 411,342 -5.3
Toyota Corolla / Matrix 328,878 -4.1
Honda Civic 321,987 5.9
Honda Accord 350,441 -2.9
Dodge Ram PU 229,222 -29.7
Chevrolet Impala 244,692 -16.6
Honda CR-V 183,346 -8.6
Nissan Altima 252,357 -2.8
GMC Sierra PU 155,564 -17.5
Ford Escape 145,577 -4.4
Chevrolet Malibu 159,733 51.8
Toyota RAV4 128,225 -19.3
Ford Fusion 137,295 0.9
Toyota Prius 151,025 -9.6
Toyota Tacoma PU 135,962 -15
Ford Focus 184,152 15.7
Toyota Highlander 96,870 -14.4
Chrysler Town & Country 110,411 -10.9
The Big 3 sold 775,872 cars vs. 1,665,005 by the A3 in the top 20. Real nice, eh?
Regards,
OW
I am really confused on why is the Cobalt not there? They have sold 175,259 thru November (-4.2%) Where does this data come from? Some of it does not agree with published data. Impala is correct but the Malibu is low. The G6 also sold 132,534 (down .3%) which would have been about 17th on this list.
Whys is the Impala listed below Dodge Ram? The numbers are 08 so they are not reordered for 08??? What is an A3?
But the numbers are from a different socio/economic time. For this coming year it will be more like what has happened from October on which will be very interesting. Pretty much all compact and subcompact vehicles (including Hybrids) have plummeted around 70%. Look for the Cobalt/Civic/Corolla/Prius to go to the bottom of the list and perhaps drop off.
With the domestics, I think it is a lot more instructive to look at how retail sales have changed, because that's who is really BUYING these cars and trucks. I would assume, for instance, that while Impala sales are down so much overall, they are down a lot less for retail sales? I know that both Ford and GM have continued their 2007 successes this year in getting fleet sales down.
Having said that, I will also say that what catches my eye here is just a few of the numbers: in year 3 (year 4? year 5? I am losing track) of the Lutz plan to turn the ship, GM's volume is still in the Silverado (as is Ford's in the F-150) whereas Toy/Hon's is in the Camry/Accord. They also have the Corolla/Civic, which has no sales counterpart on the domestic side, although Focus and Cobalt do sell well, just at roughly half the volume. And I don't know fleet numbers there, but with both of those models pretty old at this point, I would bet there are a lot of Focuses and Cobalts getting shovelled into the rental fleets.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Let's see what happens in December. Goldman Sachs predicts GM is down 42%.
Regards,
OW
Edmunds Forecasts 5 Percent Further Decline in Vehicle Sales in 2009
I don't see a breakdown by make.
What I do not understand is where I got my data for Cobalt/Civic/Corolla that said 65% drop. I know I posted it here yet the WSJ does not show that. Need to investigate.
Found the data. It was a 65% from May to November. May was the height of the gas price mania and November is at the low. And with that data it looks like the Compacts will probably keep their relative positions.
The Civic that was hot in May 2008 with 53,299 sales was not in November
with 17,690 sales,(that is a 70% drop!!) according to the Automotive News Data Center. Ditto the Corolla, 52,826 sold in May 2008 versus 21,807 (60% drop) sold in November; and the Focus, 32,579 sold in May versus 8,194 sold in November.(75% DROP) Cobalt was down 65%.
Also Malibu was the only vehicle in November to actually increase volume from 2007 (35%).
Ram truck is 7th on the list. That shows that Chrysler has at least something to bargain with. If Nissan had the money they should pick up the truck part.
I am going to post a yearly sales chart after I format it later on.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
"In October, Glendale-based Johnson Controls said it assumed there would be production of 12.3 million vehicles in North America and 21.2 million in Europe. The company's latest production estimates for 2009 are 9.3 million units in North America and 16.2 million in Europe."
http://www.jsonline.com/business/36225934.html
This downturn in the economy is not yet thru, with more dominos to fall. Commercial real estate is going to go bust next, unless they get several hundred billion in bailouts. And banks have not yet started taking losses on people's defaults on credit cards en-masse.
Regards,
OW
How good is 621 vs. 700? Is a 621 a very high risk? What are the GM competitors doing? Are they also limited to 700 or can they go lower?
Fresh off of receiving a hefty bailout, GMAC says it is opening up its loaning channels to potential buyers with credit bureau scores of 621 or higher. Two months ago, GMAC limited its loans to potential buyers with credit scores of 700 or higher, but the financial institution says it will begin loaning to those who meet the lower criteria effective immediately.
“The majority of GMAC’s auto financing has been in the prime arena,” GMAC President Bill Muir said in a statement released earlier today. “Therefore, opening access to credit for those with CB [credit bureau] scores of 621 or better will allow us to return to more normal levels of financing volume, and should help in efforts to stabilize the U.S. auto industry.”
OK I found this:
Up to 499: 1%
500 - 549: 5%
550 - 599: 7%
600 - 649: 11%
650 - 699: 16%
700 - 749: 20%
750 - 799: 29%
Over 800: 11%
So the number of eligible buyers went from 60% to about 80%.
Seeing that it is the wealthier part of the population that buy new vehicles, and these people are likely to have better credit scores, I don't see where GMAC lowering their acceptable score is going to help drive sales much.
In fact there have been plenty of local banks and credit unions where you could get an auto loan, all thru this period, with lower credit scores.
I just don't see the lower 40% of the credit-score population, who are struggling from paycheck-to-paycheck, going out shopping for a typical $25K vehicle. And if they do go out and buy something like this then they are a higher risk to default on the loan.
I think this society needs to live within its means, rather than giving people loans for houses and vehicles which they can not afford. When enough of these sorts of loans are given out and defaulted on, that's what damages the whole economy.
I guess everybody knows it's STILL just a Hyundai, even though they hide the emblems real well. :P
How many cars showed up on our shores? Are you willing to quote all of these numbers as percentage of inventory sold versus just pure volume? :shades:
(Incidentally, i have no clue what percentage of available inventory each one sold, but I am curious).