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Comments
Fearful about what we'll read in the upcoming new model year issues of C&D, MT, R&T, etc. Will there be any substantive change for '02 LS? Or will they pass over LS or just talk about minor changes like new color, revised standard equipment, etc? I noticed that the DN article mentioned changes with other Lincoln products but not LS. That doesn't seem to bode well for generating any new buzz or interest for '02 LS.
Had to go to Des Moines. On way back tonight I noticed 5 LS on I-80, going East. Also noticed 1 M5, 1 M3, and 1 330i, each going West. The 3 Bimmers passed me doing 74 mph in my work Sonata GLS. I didn't pass a single LS nor did one pass me. Not sure if that means anything, but would've been nice if an LS had whipped by me like the M5 or M3 did!
And you can be just as certain that BMW, Acura, Lexus, Audi, Infiniti are not going to stand still. So any news on the '02 freshening will be helpful. As for me, I am going to give the Jag X-type a real hard look in August. Had the LS promised a stick for the V8 or more hp/torque for the V6 manual, I would wait.
Fact is, the 5 Series sales for the year are off THE SAME AS the LS.
for January thru April period...
'01 >> 12,769 for LS and 11,929 for 5 Series
'00 >> 16,994 for LS and 16,025 for 5 Series
I can see why Brian left this board, there seems to be a whole lot of whining going on.
I don't think "American Luxury and Performance" is going to alienate the "traditional" LM buyer if it's applied to the LS and selectively to a performance model. Do Crown Victoria buyers look elsewhere because Ford also builds the Cobra ? Do Impala buyers leave the showroom because a Corvette sits in the corner ? Nonsense. And Jag buyers won't leave the showroom because VVT is on an optional LS performance model. I think that current LM buyers are pretty well sold on their Conti or TC before they hit the showroom. And tomorrow's luxury buyers, raised on BMWs, Audis, etc and being alot more knowledgeable about mechanicals, are not going to settle for poor "performance value". The LS must be the performance leader for LM if not for all of Ford in the 4 door, RWD department. Grab the gauntlet before Land Rover eats Ford and BMW recovers from their Land Rover debacle. Lexus and Acura are working hard to make LM's great efforts with the LS a distant memory. Ford has the parts, and with just a minimum amount of R&D, the LS could be a class leader. Ok, I'm putting the soapbox away and donning the Nomex.
I have very minimal noise in the LS. At high speeds, above 80, I can hear some directional wind in the rear doors and a tad in the front, but this is when I am not blasting the radio. Overall, the car is rock solid with no noise or vibrations. I have the V8 and two things to compare over my old 96 Taurus, one, the Taurus was mad noisy, I always noticed it and I had to reseat three of the window seals with screws since they popped out over time. Two, I still have to get used to the LS V8. I was so used to getting in the Taurus and punching the gas when I wanted to go. On the LS, just tapping the accel lurches me forward. I love it.
To bad that one guy gave up the LS for an Audi, I don't think they compare for the offering and value. But, he wanted a manual. I was going to get the LS V8 sport, but after driving the regular, I figured, you have the option to shift into all five gears. I have done this a number of times with ease. Drop to fourth or third on the freeway, or drive on the roads in any gear I choose. It's an easy transition to the next gear once you get used to it. Just my preference I guess.
As for the Licoln incentives, I don't think it cheapens the brand. Of course, in terms of resale, it might hurt the current owners, but times are hard and any marketeer knows that you gotta sell more or the people you employ are in jepordy, dealers included. As a die hard american, I love value, and I think many agree. Not all can afford the expensive options, so many look for the value, which is why I think the type of incentive offered fits very well with most peoples perception of Licoln, a great car at a good value. When I was in Dallas last weekend, I saw two middle aged women driving V6 LS's. I saw another young man driving a V8. They looked truly content in each case. All these sightings in a two day period.
Just my 0.07cents (it was a long post)
Jeff
Looking at heyjewel's posted DN article, Lexus, BMW, and Acura all posted significant increases while both Lincoln and Cadillac suffered significant decreases. For BMW, would be interesting to see what has happened to 3, 5, & 7 Series, as well as their SUV. New 3 Series is a big enhancement. Is it cutting into some 5 Series sales? I'd be surprised if it isn't. Price of their SUV is in heart of 5 Series territory. Guessing it, too, has cut into 5 Series sales. But the net effect has been an increase in total BMW sales, not a big decrease as with Lincoln.
Will be interesting to see if new Blackwood and revised TC & Navigator can reverse Lincoln's sales trend. If there are no substantive enhancements to LS for '02, guessing LS won't be the vehicle to pull Lincoln out of its sales doldrums. Not with Jag introducing the hot new X-type, Acura improving 3.2TL, Cadillac to revamp Catera, etc. Will LS sales be foreced to rely on rebates, subsidized financing, and fleet sales for '02? '03?
I don't know I just feel like the DEW98 Platform has become the World Platform for the other vehicles but not the LS.. All the visions of Grandeur quickly fell to the Way Side..... No WorldWide Deployment, No 2002 Manual V8, etc...
It has become apparent the LS8 will not be the BMW Killer we all wanted it to be... Neither will the JAG I surmise... The JAG is LUXI the LS is the one Slated to Dethrone BMW but it is not to be... Could, But Won't. Is Lincoln Really a competitive company, or does it have monopolistic trends in niche markets like the 60, and 70 year old markets.. Jim Made a good point at LS MANIA in January When the Age group who is buying the TC and CONTI are increasing in AGE, it doesn't take long to figure out that market will soon disappear. Well The LS Owner might have bought the First one just like Lincoln set out to do, to Tap the younger market 30 somethings (26 in my case), However, I think they will be seeing my market disappear in about 2 years...Not at 70 plus like they would like.
Maybe its all a part of the Strategy which it does appear this way, Get them into a Lincoln Then, Entice them to move up to a Jag, or whichever brand is next up the totem pole. That is great and all, but the Fact is Different Brands and cars especially have different feel... The Jag is a little on the Feminine, and Luxurious type. The new Image the LS was portraying and the Whole American Luxury thing is where I want to be. Not the jag....
I am sorry I am whining but I am somewhat of a perfectionist, and the LS has so much potential. It seems simple to perfect it...
First you get the customer, then you keep them coming back for more... (Retention) I believe is the word.. Jim I hope you are just holding out on us, I want to come back so bad but from what I have heard its not to be...
Regards,
Airwolf1000
You guys should listen to the Song Download it in MP3 format, or let me know at durangokit@yahoo.com and I will MP3 it and send it to you so you know what I am talking about. It is nice...
Regards,
Airwolf1000
I would only point out that the market in which the LS competes is probably more aggressive and faster moving than any market Ford has ever been in. Further, the LS was a "clean sheet of paper" product in early 1999. Were are only in the second model year. Ford has never had a reputation for taking many chances and I don't think we should be terribly surprised that we don't yet have a 540 killer.
Frankly, I would be surprised if there is ever a V8/Manual. However, I will bet dollars to doughnuts that more power is on the way. Like someone mentioned earlier, the GS430 Lexus somehow struggles along without a manual. I haven't seen any ads for it in my market lately either. Wouldn't you be tickled pink if the LS could run wheel to wheel with a GS430, have the Lexus refinement, and still cost less? That is very doable in my humble opinion.
The current LS does a lot of things very well but there are trade-offs. Maybe, at some point, there should be more of a difference between the sport and non-sport models. Maybe focus the non-sport more to the luxury set with plenty of wood, leather, sound insulation, and gee-gaws. Maybe the sport should be more carbon fiber trim, supercharged engines, minimal weight. With two versions of the LS focused on their respective niches, there would be less need to compromise the product.
Bruce
brucelinc, #2462: As regards Lexus GS430, check out the June issue of Motor Trend, p. 59. Quick test headline reads "More cubes, more peformance, more lux for the edgy GS." Brakes like a Corvette Z06 (60-0 mph in 108 ft). Accelerates like a 540i manual (0-60 mph in 5.9 secs). Base price is $47K and their tested one had an MSRP of $54K. Too rich for me.
The new program is wonderful. The automatic transmission (non-SST) never will shift like a Z-F on an Aston Martin, but it is now very predictable and refined. I can use the stick to manually shift down through the gears for engine-braking, and the car doesn't lurch or hop or free-wheel. The car engages reverse, and forward quickly and expectedly now every time. (It was a valet who nearly backed the LS through a wall by gunning the engine waiting for reverse to engage that convinced me to get the re flash done).
The transmission always shifted well going through the gears in acceleration, and I notice no change there. Going up hills in stop and go traffic, the transmission doesn't seem to hunt for a gear as much. All in all, after a year and a half ownership, I still enjoy driving the car, and think the transmission programming is now "invisible."
Interestingly, the re flash seems to have changed the manner the headlight auto-on works. I always leave it on about a 10 second delay - off. Now, the sensor seems a bit more quick to turn on the lights when I am stopped under an overpass, and then holds them on a bit longer in bright sunlight until it turns them off automatically.
I'm not nuts - this feature really did change after the reflash! Must be the way the MY 2001 cars are set up.
People who are unhappy with Lincoln because their LS has quality problems are right to complain and expect more for their money. People who are unhappy that their $35k car doesn't perform like a $55k car should have known better, and bought something else.
Besides, what do you do with a BMW after you've killed it?
Scott (protective gear in place)
"While we complain, why no manual in this sportiest Mercedes?"
"If we were offering it, real demand would be less than 5 percent," said Zimmerman. "We
would never recover our costs."
Unfortunately it always comes down to money.
"I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I guess I haven't seen the downward spiral you are talking about."
1)More HP. Plain and simple. 210hp and 252hp was par for the automotive course in the Spring/Summer of 1999 when the LS was introduced, but now its 2001. For 2002 those numbers are well below par for this segment. The LS has to have at least 230-240hp for the V6 and at least 280plus for the V8. Is adding VVT to the LS engines THAT cost prohibitive? Jim, is it REALLY that important to keep HP differences so extreme between the S class Jag and LS? Note the HP differences between the Maxima and its bog brother Infiniti I30. Exact same engines, I30 is the upper class version of the Max, and the HP figures are usually only 5 or so HP apart, yet they both have been selling well for years. Max 20th anniversary edition even has that 5hp more added.
2)Sorry, but no need to waste the money on the stick shift version. Take the money and improve on the current automatic transmission. Make it shift 35% faster. Quiet all the critics(ie Edmunds own reviewers) of the current auto transmission, and do something so the automatic trannys dont sap as much power as they currently do. Dont Vette's automatic transmissions get almost the same performance as a manual transmission Vette?
3)Do something to improve gas mileage, or, if you can keep the same mileage with the HP improvements mentioned in my #1 above, then you are ok.
4)Thats it. The suspension is perfect. I now have 32,000 miles on my 2000 LS, and the suspension is STILL fine, shocks dont feel worn at all, and the balance/neutral handling is still tremendous, especially for a Lincoln. (EVERY LS owner needs to push their LS handling to the limits at least once...you gotta understand what you have...take it to a wide open stadium parking lot one weekend and run it hard. This thing is nothing short of BMW handling).
5)Oh, and one more thing. If you do all of the above, you must keep the price where it is NOW. Nope. Cant charge a dime more. Ok, maybe $100 more. But you gotta keep sucking in more people with the value factor before you can creep up the price. BMW has the reputation that can carry the high prices. Lincoln doesnt.
Comments anyone?
I was thumbing through the Jan, 2000 edition of MT last night and they had a long term wrap-up of the 98 GS400, which was a new model at the time. Raved about the performance but 43% of owner responses indicated mechanical problems. 10% complained of steering vibrations and 16% indicated problems with tires. They also mentioned at least 3 recalls or TSBs. Sound familiar? Spending 55k doesn't guarantee satisfaction.
One last thing: I don't think it is surprising that not all LS owners will buy another LS. I agree that if your expectations are a 540 killer, by all means ante up another 15 - 20 thousand and go for something else. I think the current LS is very competitive in it's price range and the potential is there to improve it and keep it competitive without much of a price increase.
Bruce
Bruce
1) How many pedals on the floor?
2) How many feet do you have?
3) How many feet do you use while driving?
Think about it.
Maybe the Mercury Marauder would be the choice for Auto fans. But if it's a Cobra drivetrain in a Crown Vic body, it will need some kind of suspension transplant. I drove a Marquis De Sade a few weeks ago and the suspension was downright clunky compared to the LS.
To Albert: Congratulations!! Sounds like you were treated right! You may not have as much time to contribute to this board because you will be looking for excuses to drive somewhere instead!
Bruce
Also I am open to a 6 Cylinder configuration with a 6 speed manual as long as it gets the desired results. Come on the Acura TL is getting a 6 speed, the Audi S4, both of which are sedans smaller ones at that. Also VVT. I want 0-60 times though in the 6 second range. This is common nowadays for a sports sedan. God knows the new 530 V6 will beat the LS V8 barely but with two cylinders less. I don't care how it happens as long as it does... The NSX, a world class sports car did it with a 3.0 Liter V-6 pumping out only 275 HP (Initially).
I would definitely enjoy the savings on Gas. I have a question for Jim, maybe I have been to engrossed with the V8 which is nice once you have it. I don't want to step back down to a V6, the Passing power on the V8 at 60 -70 mph is unreal. But is Lincoln doing any work on a hotrod LS V6.? Better than the current V6.
Regards,
Airwolf1000
2. Board should be for current owners, past owners, potential owners, or people who drop by to see what LS is about. I want all types dropping in and feeling welcome. Even those who want to complain about their car or dealer issues.
3. I don't think people are whining. Many of us love the underlying platform. I do! We want to see the car improved. We don't want the LS to die a slow, neglected death. Ending up like those GM products that promise a lot initially and then don't deliver or only deliver in last MY after GM announces the vehicle is to be killed (e.g., the Pontiac Fiero).
4. I say do RAISE BOTH CONTENT AND PRICES. The key is NOT to raise MSRP. Why raise it when you are discounting with rebates or cheap financing? Raise the invoice price charged to dealer while holding constant the MSRP. That why Lincoln can recoup its investment, the dealer might not have to discount much (if at all), and buyers get a better product at a reasonable final price. Nothing better for all than to see MSRP held constant while the manufacturer adds a thousand or more dollars of improvements or previously optional equipment. Better to do this than resort to sales gimmicks. Let the car do the talkin' by making a better car or one with higher perceived overall value.
5. Don't forget non-performance improvements as well. Lots of little things and medium things would be useful as well. Use the 2 visor designs so common in many cheaper cars. More interior storage and trunk space (e.g., non-intrusive trunk hinges). Make a single disc CD player standard. Add advanced safety features becoming common in competitors (brake assist, side curtain and rear air bags, pretensioners & force limiters for all seat belts, etc.).
I agree with scott8 and ronniepoohs posts. We have to realize that for the price, there is only so much that we can get. We also have to realize, we are a very small segment of the LS population. If I recall, there are over 50K LS's in circulation, yet we are what, several hundred on this board? And, it seems most of this board is men and enthusiasts. I have rarely if ever seen a woman post, yet I have seen several women with LS's. Lest not forget this other segments that the LS targets.
Does the LS need more horsepower, not for me, but I would definitely like to see better gas mileage for the vehicle in it's class. I had noticed in researching the vehicles that there are many other premium vehicles that demand 91 octane, so the LS doesn't appear too disadvanted in this respect. Other than that, for the price I paid, I am completely satisfied and I think there are many others that are not represented on this board that are as well.
And lastly, to Albert, congrats on your purchase. I hope you will be as happy as I to drive the vehicle.
Jeff
Lincoln has a reputation as a luxo, older crowd Marque. How far can Jim market/push performance, without messing up the audiences for the Town Car/Continental crowd? Gotta be confusing. The LS is in a place by itself. Might be hard for Jim to get the support for additional performance for the LS when the rest of Lincoln's products are nowhere in line with the LS. Now that I think about out, Im still shocked that Lincoln ever built the LS to begin with! Glad they did, though...
Having owned and driven a 300HP Northstar STS for the last several years, I just can't do away with having that kind of power at my disposal. The Jag/LS definitely out-handle the STS. Feels like you are driving a go-cart! Just get more power into the LS!! Also, I'd like to see (hear) the LS8 get a more "throaty" / sporty exhaust note. It's too muted as is.
ROB
I bought my rear wheel drive LS manual because it was a rear wheel drive manual.
I would have expected the LS8 to get lower mpg figures than my Z, but that has not been the case. Considering the LS8 weighs in at 3700 lbs., I think the fuel economy is pretty good.
ronniepooh: Great plan for the LS of the near future, but I agree with lolaj42 re gas mileage. I don't know what I'd do with more HP, but I recall my first test drives last year. Drove a V6 auto first and thought, "this is the car I want". Next day I drove a V8 Sport and thought, "I MUST have this car!" (Which is now in my garage.) I've suggested before: If Ford wants Jaguar to maintain their "superiority", just give the LS the Jag engine, complete with "Jaguar V8" or whatever on the cover. Call it the LS-J or something and make it a $X00 option.
robh3: What's the compression ratio in the Northstar engine? Octane requirements have been discussed here, and it's been mentioned that the Northstar doesn't require premium fuel.
albert19: Congratulations! Was the trip home from the dealership much longer than the trip there? I managed to cover over 100 miles getting my car home from a dealership 5 miles away.
Jeff (a cranky young guy ;-)
OK, I'm off my soap box; donning the nomex.
To Stan's point, the LS identity is certainly a changeable thing. Many, if not most, of us bought our LS's because of how they handled, or sounded, or looked, or whatever. It certainly wasn't because we all wanted a Lincoln because Lincoln was known for performance automobiles. Given that all the folks we met in January put a lot of effort into creating the LS, I'm also confused as to why the performance image of the LS isn't being put forth more forcefully. Ford bought Volvo? Someone in the executive suite decided the whole LS thing was a mistake? Teaching the geriatric sales staff in the Lincoln dealer network proved to be too big a nut to crack? Who knows? Either way, we may end up with "classic" vehicles in a few years because the momentum generated a year or two ago has been allowed to run into the sand pit.
That said, I still enjoy my car. I bought it for cash and intend to keep it until its reliability becomes unacceptable or until I want to buy something that's more fun. Don't see either happening soon.
Someone observed recently in the forum that Lexus has no manuals and that hasn't hurt their sales. How is it possible to know that? As Dagwood Bumstead once observed, "I'm going to have to stay home some day to see what goes on when I'm not around." Lexus could well have sold more units if they had manuals. I may well have looked much harder at the GS300 if it were offered with a manual.
The LS gas mileage still sucks, compared to similar vehicles, performance or otherwise.
I had the opportunity to rent a 300M Chrysler on my just-completed business trip. Some observations: 1) They must be having trouble selling these things in the quantities they're making them, given that I rent from a GM company (National) -- if National is renting Chrysler stuff, it's because Chrysler's dumping them big-time on the fleet marked, 2) The thing makes a lot of wind noise, 3) the German guy I was travelling with was completely enthralled with it -- I couldn't help wondering what he would have thought of my LS, and 4) It offered the features I remember from my Eagle Vision -- an ambient temp reading that's accurate, good gas mileage, huge interior, a computer that displays useful information in an intuitive fashion. Still, given how I use my car, I'm happy to own my LS. However, if the LS self-destructs at 4.5 years the way my Vison did, my posts will become quite spirited.
Ronniepooh brought up an excellent point. Why did Lincoln ever create the LS if they didn't intend to support it, long-term. I'm anxiously awaiting the answer. . .assuming there is one.
Bob
We're proud of LM for introducing such a driver's car into the market. We think they made a GREAT initial entry into this market. That's why we bought one.
Now, we want to be proud that we own a car whose manufacturer is clearly behind the product and pushing the concept forward. We want to have a GREAT temptation to trade in our present LS's for a new version way before we've worn ours out.
We're concerned that LM's advertising seems to hardly mention the LS, and when it does, they seem to avoid any real information. We see nothing but luxo-fluff. Who are they targeting? Luxury is necessary, but not sufficient for a PERFORMANCE vehicle.
We're concerned that LS's competition seem to realize they need to raise the bar. Oh LM.... are you watching? Are you concerned? Do you think you can just coast for another three years by offering new paint color choices?
We're not hearing or seeing the kind of evidence that LM is following through on the great thing they started. Can it be that the upper upper management doesn't understand this market they've put such a good foot in? Hello?
We know the LS management folks are true 'car guys'. We hope their bosses learn from them and SUPPORT them!
wlp2: Not bad mpg for the miles. My V6 auto was getting upper 12's around town at the same mileage. It will improve. These are VERY tight engines and take some breaking-in. Enjoy your new ride!