I second babicka's compliment on your post. Not sure anyone could've said it better. Lyrical, almost poetic! But is Lincoln listening and will they act before it is too late? They can't wait for '03 or '04. Continuous significant improvement is the name of the game in this highly competitive market segment. Stand still too long and you get run over!!!
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but what V8 powered cars in this class have significantly better gas mileage than the LS? I can believe that there are LS6 competitors with better gas mileage, because frankly, the American automakers have never been famous for their 6 cylinder engines (although they're improving). However, I feel V8s are a different story.
I think what makes the LS8 so attractive is that it doesn't really have many direct competitors (the Olds Aurora has a V8 with a similar price). The LS8 compares favorably with the 528, A6, and GS300 . . . but obviously, these are very refined 6 cylinder cars. Lincoln hit a sweet spot in the market here. I'd continue buying an American V8, particularly if its cheaper, over a 6 cylinder import if my performance is better and quality similar.
I think I'm rambling now, but I don't think that the LS8's gas mileage "sucks".
thomas l: I think something is defective in your fuel sensor/mileage computer. The kind of erroneous output you describe is not typical or normal. I have a log book in my car where I record every maintenance action, every fuel stop, every trip, etc. On the average, my car's MPG display comes out quite close to my manual calculations.
I see several people complaining about poor fuel mileage. After 20K+ miles, my overall mileage, including city driving, trips, and everything in between is 20.5 MPG. I have developed a "light foot" for city driving, and can usually average about 17 MPG in the city. If I get bogged down with a lot of stop and go situations, mileage will drop to 15 or 16, but very seldom less than 15 and by the time I have to fill the tank the city driving mileage is almost always close to 17 MPG. If I do a lot of urban freeway driving, mileage improves to 18 or 19 MPG. On open highway driving, typical of long trips, we see 23-25 MPG. At typical 80 MPH cruising, our LS8 gets right at 23.5 MPG.
From what I've seen of other posts, this is pretty much the typical LS8 mileage experience. If you are seeing much worse than this, and your car has at least 3000 miles on it, I think you either have a heavy foot or something may need adjusting in your fuel system.
Only two issues for me: low highway mileage and premium fuel.
The LS8 is not that heavy. Isn't a pickup or van. Doesn't use a huge engine. But the car is lucky to get 24 mpg during interstate cruising. V-8 DeVille and host of other similarly sized & weighted cars with comparable engines will do better on interstate. My 4,200 pound '96 Impala SS w/5.7L OHV V-8 gets about 2 mpg better at 74-84 mph. The overdrive 5th gear needs to be numerically lower in the LS8. Would go long way toward improving cruising distance on a tank of gas.
Then to pull up and have to use premium while the Northstar V-8 DeVille, Seville, or Eldo guy next to me, who just went 500 miles on the interstate on a tank of gas, gets to save 20 cents a gallon buying 87 octane regular.
Giowa: Not to be argumentative here, but getting 24 mpg from a V8 on a highway is not bad, and far from "low". This is a V8 for crying out loud. V8s have never been marketed for their fuel economy. The 3.9 liter LS is clearly not as effecient as GM's Northstar, but I don't consider the STS, DeVille, Eldorado to be the LS's primary competitors (nor are they desirable for my automotive tastes). The Northstar is a great motor. Too bad it only comes with a Cadillac wrapper!
Notwithstanding, the Cadillac, Lexus, Infinity, and BMW, Mercedes, Audi V8s come in significantly higher priced cars. I'm not sure what you have in mind for "host of other similarly sized & weighted cars with comparable engines".
Either way, I'm not disappointed with my mileage.
As an aside: What's the mileage on your Impala for "city" driving?
they'd be rolling on the floor laughing at Lincoln owners kicking around gas mileage. I'm glad we're discussing this topic though. Over on a Cadillac board the other day there were quite a few posts regarding excessive oil consumption in Northstar engines. Hmmm.
Off for a weeks' vacation tomorrow. Please, all you cranky people, try not to let this board slide any farther downhill. I'd like to be able to find it when I get home.:)
Yes, the early GS Lexi two-door coupes had the excellent Toyota overdrive 5 speed Manual with the base Supra drivetrain. If I remember right, and maybe Giowa can look it up, it had around 215 hp. The IS300 will definitely have the Getrag six-speed soon. Look for some semi-M3 0-60 numbers. My theory is that Manual editions don't succeed unless the model has a performance "image". Like the early manual GS300, the LS Manual is developing the "why shift a luxury car" syndrome. BMW avoids that by selling a "Manual is performance" image. BMW owners expect a higher performing car with a Manual. They can see the difference in the car mags and in the model line-up. Not so with the LS: "Like what are the numbers?" You can't fool the enthusiast crowd - they read C&D, Automobile and R&T. Besides the IS300, the upcoming Focus and Nissan SE-R will feature the Getrag six-speed in FWD form ala Audi. Truly, Getrag six-speeds will become ubiquitous. And if the econoboxes can have them, why not the LS? The problen with the Getrag design (or is it German philosophy) is that most of their 5 speeds have no overdrive fifth gear. The Japanese 5 speeds had them, but now the six-speed is taking over. And the Japanese are switching to the Getrag and putting these only in "performance" models. So I think LM should install the Getrag 6 in the V-6 and designate it as a performance model. It could be advertised in the car mags, while the LS V-8, the TC and Conti could be advertised in Modern Maturity, Sunset and Golf mags and not alienate the "American Luxury" buyers. I'm sure the marketing guys can figure this out without dreaded "crossover". The demographics are available for any kind of campaign. But I wouldn't start without working on product identity and direction first, and getting the LS to a credible performance level is the first step.
I have a very annoying squeak coming from the rear drivers side door/window of my '00 V-8 non-sport. I wanted to see if any of you had this problem and if it may be related to the infamous rear window issue. It happens all the time except on the smoothest of roads and it is driving me crazy.
Well said Stan! I could not agree more. I originaly purchased my '01 manual LS rather than a 5 series for two reasons: 1)the hope of a bright future for Lincoln to actually take on BMW and 2)the number of Lincoln personel who actively participate on this board. However, if Lincoln decides to ignore we enthusiasts, then my next car WILL be the BMW. You have a golden opportunity here Lincoln. If you truly want to entice a younger buyer into your showrooms you cannot remain AARP focused. The TC and Conti crowd will just ignore the "hot rod" in the corner as a fluke, but you will attract those of us who who still enjoy challenging life. When was the last time you saw a big grin on the face of a TC driver as he acclerates out of a curve? This is normal for the LS driver! These are two different cars and two different types of drivers. Satisfying both may not be easy within the same name brand but it is possible and, I believe, Lincoln's future depends upon doing so.
Have just a sec before going to church this morning and saw your note about SC300. Culled thru a couple old books. At least from '95-'97 the SC300 2-dr coupe came standard with 225 hp 24V DOHC I-6 and 5-speed manual. The Jan 98 issue of Consumer Guide Car & Truck Test mentions, for the '98 MY: "The SC300 is now sold only with 4-speed automatic, the previous standard 5-speed manual dying of slow sales." Guess I had also wrongly thought that Lexus had offered manual in early GS300. But doesn't appear so.
As for fuel economy, if you can afford a car like this, doesn't that mean you are a person of above average intelligence? Wouldn't such a person rather spend less on fuel and more on other things, all else being equal??? Extra dough can be used to upgrade speakers, add wood, etc. Why let the Caddy drivers save all the money by getting better mileage and needing only regular 87 octane?
Actually I think it's my driving. I have reset the display before taking a road trip and seen 22-24 mpg displayed consistently. My normal drive is a 12 mile round trip to work and half of it is in gridlock, with the other half in slow traffic. I am relatively sure the hours of idling are screwing the average calculations with divide by zero problems. When I fill up on normal driving, the miles to empty gives me 280-300. On a road trip that goes up to as high as 360. My guess is that the running average uses a less forgiving algorithm than the miles to empty.
Our '01 C240 with its 160-something hp V6 and 5 sp automatic got 26 mpg on a trip to FL and around 18-20 around town. Not much different than the V8 LS. And it specs premium gas too ;-D
thomas l: I almost always reset the MPG ONLY when I fill the tank. Then I watch the average fluctuate in different types of traffic. The displayed MPG is more traffic sensitive during the first 50-80 miles, since the instantaneous mileage is a larger proportion of the weighted average. Toward the end of a tank, the average mileage doesn't change as quickly.
My 1990 Sable LS had both an instantaneous MPG and an average MPG readout. It also had dual sun visors. It seems ironic that my 2000 LS falls short in those categories (but not in many others!).
I meant the old SC300, not the GS series. Too much luxury for the stick. Not so for the great,late Supra. It seems to be a matter of public perception. BMW doesn't emphasize luxury until you get to the age range of the 740i and 740iL. Alot of the public expects certain amenities with price and model, and there really isn't that much difference in equipment unless you go full tilt with an MB500. The LS has taken it's hits on interior appointments from the press but the enthusiast probably doesn't care that much about the degree of luxury in the car. My Manual has the convenience package,stock stereo with CD but no sunroof and I'm satisfied. I didn't really care about 12 speakers unless the drivetrain had RWD and a Manual first.I never took a test drive because the LS represented the only alternative to the 5 series. I think the near-luxury buyer will find the Non-Sport LS a great value. You could doll-up the interior for that market. The Sport package LS8 and LS6 Auto buyer could have the current interior. And the Manual buyer could have the carbon fiber interior with the improved drivetrain. Then the Conti or TC buyer who drifts over to the "wrong" side of the showroom and sees the loaded LS V-8 Non-Sport won't be offended. The current Sport Model V-8 and Auto V-6 will look rather stripped to this buyer but he/she will just brush it off as a poor person's LM entry vehicle. Of course, the dealer could honor the present practice of denying the existence of the Manual and reserve the car as "Special Order Only". Everybody would be happy. The Manual could then be "LM's Dirty Little Secret" or the "Black Sheep" of the LM family or the "Closet Smoker". I'd like to see the car more as a "Skunk Work's Car" or something exotic and rare. You would need little advertising for the right performance package. The word gets around.
Back from church... Had a vision. God told me he wants an LS8 manual, preferably a 6-speed manual, with overdrive 6th around .70:1 and direct drive 5th, and w/LSD. I forgot to ask him about final drive. He'll be very mad if Lincoln doesn't build it soon, but not sure he'll end the world on account of this one. He seemed a bit pleased XFL died (I'll be the only person to miss it) and won't guarantee me a Raiders Super Bowl (saying we blew it last year, so don't blame him). Go figure.
Pulled out '92 AAA Auto Test mag/book. It says the Lexus SC300/400 introduced the summer of '91 as a 1992 model. The SC300 came standard w/5-speed manual and the 3.0L 225 HP 24V DOHC I-6 engine. Thus Lexus sold the manual SC300 for 6 model years: 92-93-94-95-96-97. Not too bad. The '95 AAA Auto Test discussed both the SC400 auto and SC300 manual: "the SC300 with the manual transmission accelerated just as fast [as the 4.0L V-8 4-speed auto, at 7.3 secs] and gave us 20 mpg [versus a bit under 17 mpg for the V-8]."
Now I want to find an old SC300 manual full test report. Appears LS6 manual Sport competitive w/former SC300 manual, as it should be since both weigh about 3,600 pounds.
Thanks,Giowa. That was one heavy coupe! I sat in one in 1995 (one of my clients) and I thought it was too small inside. Must have been the weight of luxury. I guess it was a Lexus version of the Porsche 928. The straight-six was very similar to the Supra engine.
My 01 V8 Sport has 9k miles now. Mileage has continually been improving. I reset the computer at each fillup and record and calculate the mpg.
I am now at an overall average (calculated) of 17.80 mpg city/hwy. The car's computer has consistantly reported the mpg within 2% of my calculated mpg (sometimes higher, sometimes lower) and now averages out to 17.92. I can get 23 to 24 mpg in strict hwy driving doing 70 to 80 mph. And I do have a heavier foot than most. :-)
This is a little spooky. My '01 V8 Sport also has just over 9k miles, mileage also improving. I also reset & hand-calculate after every fillup.
Overall mileage is 17.73; my trip computer consistently registers .1 to .3 higher than actual. Best tank so far was 22.24 MPG, nearly all on the highway at 75-80 with three people onboard.
The only thing that's slightly troubling about the mileage is that it's virtually identical overall to what I got in my '96 Mark 8, but that car had 38 more HP from a 4.6 liter engine and weighed just about the same. Hope the LS continues to improve...
John, So it seems that us LS owners think, and drive alike...
My last car was a '92 Mark 7 LSC. It had 225 hp, was an old technology 5 liter V8, was heavier, and used standard gas. My driving habits haven't changed but that car got only a couple of tenths less avg mpg than my LS. I think this is why everyone is curious about why the LS doesn't get better fuel economy.
I don't consider this a big deal. Afterall, if you can afford a Lincoln, you can afford a few cents more per gallon. And I certainly wouldn't want to sacrifice power for mpg, but one has to wonder why all of this new technology hasn't resulted in better economy.
There is a noise that can be generated on bumpy/rough roads by the door latch pawls moving relative to each other. The noise can usually be eliminated by applying grease to the contact surfaces.
To do this: With the door open look into the latch opening and use a pen or other suitable instrument to close the latch. Observe how the latch pawls move and note surfaces that contact each other when opening and closing. Apply lubricant to the black (overmolded covering) with a Q-Tip or brush on the sliding surfaces. This should eliminate the noise , if it is the one that I am familiar with.
I have not researched the reason for this but if I reset the fuel computer every tank or even every other tank, it is quite accurate. However, if I never reset it, after the third tank or around 1000 miles, the computer will give those crazy readings on 1.3 MPG or whatever. A reset puts everything right again. I do not know if that is normal but it sounds like it is pretty common.
Regarding mileage, I don't lose any sleep over it, but the comparison to the Mark VIII or Continental is valid. One would expect the LS to do a little better than those but it doesn't. The running change from the 3.58 axle ratio to the 3.31 on the V8 improved the EPA rating from 23 to 24 but I am not sure if real world mileage is any better. I think perhaps there are improvements that could be made on the intake and exhaust characterisics of the 3.9. Ford is traditionally pretty conservative on ignition timing, too. I still would like to see a displacement increase, VVT, and a higher OD ratio in 5th. I am not whining! After 32,000 miles, I like the car better than I did when I first got it. Incidently, I picked it up exactly 2 years ago this week. Happy birthday, Silver!
That's probably it. I never reset the mpg display. Actually I rarely even look at it - I find the miles to empty more useful. Once it dips under 100 I work a gas stop into my next trip.
Have any of the rags or sites shown a 2002 LS yet? I have the June issue of C&D and MT, but no luck there. I know the truth is out there!
If the street date is this fall, then won't Lincoln have to start production no later than August...just three months plus change away? So where are the images/pics?
With regards to pricing I found that $500 above dealer invoice will in most cases put you into the LS. I shopped several LM dealerships and found that Edmunds new car invoice and TMV were just about right on! However, I also found that their used car trade-in is not. I shopped my trade with four LM dealerships and could not get within $750 of their trade-in value. My Mark VIII (95) only had 48,000 miles and was in excellent condition....so my suggestion is if you have to, I would try and sell my trade to a private party rather than try to work both ends of a deal..Good Luck !!!!!
I would like some advice on tinting my windows. I have a 2000 LS, black exterior, light graphite interior. I would like some feedback concerning how dark, whether to use titanium, possible radio interference, etc. Any info. from someone who's had it done would be much appreciated.
Hi Dennis I had my windows tinted several week after I bought the car I had the front side windows done "legal" with the back and rear windows done the next darker tint. I am really happy with it and most people think it makes the car look much better. I didn't notice any change in the radio reception. However I dint get the metallic tint. Thanks to Ronniepooh for his referral... The windows and car look great but... Here we go again. I've had heated seat failure Windows crashed AC problem EXT Temp misread ( which screws up the AC function) Lots of squeaks and rattles. Lumbar switch failure trans problems ball joint recall Noisy vent control ( when AC comes on a loud sqeaking noise is heard from behind the center vents) intermittant brake problem ( chattering in front of the brake pedal area when applied) Dash light problems( they sometimes dim for no reason) The after car is turned off you can still close the windows for 10 minutes thing works when it wants to. However I haven't had the drone, wind noise, or any fliud leaks of any kind. So I should be happy. Thank Heaven I didn't respond to the consumer reports survey or the Reliability rating would have been worse. Sorry I could care less about a V8 with more power, A manual V8( I'm way too lazy to shift) or the benefits of a gertag trans or inline V6, or my ability to do a quarter mile in 6.7 secs. IMHO the reason this car is not selling better is because since Bush was appointed president people are buying cars that get 40 mpg so they can afford the price of gasoline.(OK that one was for fun)
Kevin V8 2000 LS 15000 miles Cordovan with light graphite interior, auto, moonroof, audiophile system with polished aluminum wheels.
I find my MPG readout to be very accurate, only about 0.1 to 0.2 MPG optimistic. I used to reset it every tank full and compare it to manual calculations. Mine readout is accurate over a full tank. On the top half of the tank it is 1+ MPG high and on the bottom half it is 1 MPG or so low, but over the full tank very accurate. I quit resetting it 9 months ago and just let it run. I get no grossly erroneous readings. During the winter in my mix of driving it was a struggle to keep my MPG at 21. As soon as things warmed up the MPG started to climb above 21 and a couple of long trips has me now running over 22 MPG - long term average. This is with mostly oxygenated, MTBE added gas. Real gas (when I'm in an area that has it) gives me close to 1 MPG better mileage.
Regarding the LS's somewhat low gas milage, I wonder if some of the other vehicles that the LS is being compared to are "Low Emmissions" vehicles. Defying all logic is seems that everytime emmissions are further reduced gas mileage suffers.
I haven't seen any photos, either; nothing in any of this month's mags, & I haven't found anything on the web. I'm guessing we'll see something in the July issues.
I believe that the Job 1 date for the '02 LS is July 16. Last year the Lincoln plant shut down the first two weeks of July for the model-year changeover, and I think that's a typical pattern. Dealers got their '01 order books at the end of May last year; I saw the LS order sheet on June 3 and my order was entered & accepted on June 5 or 6. I would expect this year's info to be available in a similar fashion, but that's just a guess on my part.
I'd just like to remind everyone that the deadline for registration is coming up soon. The deadline is June 12th to insure a fun filled week end of fun and adventure in the St. Louis area on the weekend of July 12th through the 15th.
Please make your reservations early to make sure that you will enjoy yourself. See the details at www.llsoc.com to register for a weekend of your fellow enthusiatis
johnnylinc: You wonder why your '96 Mark VIII with 38 more HP and a 4.6L engine got almost the same mileage as your LS. I wonder, did that Mark VIII have a 4-speed or a 5-speed transmission?
Do you suppose the fact that the LS in automatic mode always starts in 1st gear and perhaps spends a bit more time revving could reduce the city driving mileage?
For a while, I experimented with using SST mode in city driving, and I got the feeling it may have improved the mileage a little bit. However, the hassle wasn't worth it, so I went back to using automatic mode in city driving... After all, isn't that one of the big advantages of an automatic transmission?
That's a good point; the Mark did, indeed, have a 4-speed automatic. It was also computer-controlled and, if I remember correctly, was programmed for nearly imperceptible shifts--tended toward the "luxury" side of the chart. I believe the timing was retarded slightly during each shift to make it as smooth as possible; consequently, the shifts were a bit "lazy". (It also started in first.)
I'd have to do some research; don't remember the Mark's axle ratio or tranny ratios. I don't recall the EPA rating, either, nor do I remember the RPM at speed in 4th. (Am I a blank slate, or what? )
What's odd is that the Mark got better highway mileage, and the LS is better in town. I could get 23-24 on the highway in the Mark with ease, and got as high as 26.5 at times. The LS has barely cracked 22 on a highway trip. The big caveat here, though, is the fact that I bought the Mark used. It was 8 months old and had 8k miles when I got it, so I have no idea what the mileage was from the start, and I'm not really comparing apples to apples at this point.
It may well be that the LS V8 takes longer than I would expect to become fully broken-in. The highway mileage has improved slightly over the past couple of months. I'll be doing another 500-mile round trip the first weekend of June, so it'll be interesting to compare the results from the same trip a couple weeks ago. (Interesting to me, at any rate...;-))
Sometimes I think we get hung up on this discussion. My wife has 98 Lexus LS400. Her car is heavier and has about 25 more horsepower than my V8 Sport. It consistanly gets 24 in town and 27-28 on the road.
Blows my mind yet do I care? No, the Lexus is nice for Sunday yet everytime I drive my LS, I think about how much better it is than the BMW 528 that I almost bought.
We got together with one of my cousins from out of town last night. The last time I saw him, he was driving a Maxima. I was a little surprised when he came tooling in with an LS - a manual, no less!
Obviously, I took it for a spin and I was very impressed. His car had about 15,000 miles on it and it revved freely and the shifter was very slick. I thought second gear seemed particularly strong. It sure seems to make good use of 210 horsepower. My cousin loves it and has forgotten all about his Maxima.
I know there aren't a lot of manuals out there but I sure have a new appreciation for that combination. I see why you guys who have one seem to really like them. While it may be only 3%, I wonder if the manual buyers aren't among the most satisfied LS owners.
Honestly, I would not be driving an LS if it weren't for the manual option. Whether I buy my 2000 LS at lease end or a new 2002 depends entirely on if the manual option is available in 2002.
I had a laundry list of items like yours on my 95 Mark. I kept bringing it back to the dealer thinking this would be the end of it. Well 6 1/2 years later I traded in the Mark for an LS. I contacted Lincoln Mercury about 9 months ago told them my horror stories and received an OAC, which I used to purchase my new LS. Point being, I would contact Lincoln, tell them what you have experienced to date in your LS and take it from there...Mabey you got an LS that was built when the assembly workers were thinking about the weekend instead of the car!!!!! But seriously I would contact Lincoln NOW, not 2-3 years from now. Oh and by the way, why did I keep my Mark...it was a great car...why did I buy another Lincoln....you just need to drive the competition, carefully look at their build quality, and finally compare the numbers..thats why I'm driving an LS. Good Luck.
Does anyone have or can anyone point me to a list of the programmable features in the LS? What I mean is, eg, the features you V8 guys can do from the message center. We V6 folks have no such luxury and must ask the dealer to do this for us. One thing I've asked them to do is change the default so that all doors unlock when I shut the car off. I'm wondering what other interesting options I can consider. Thanks.
George
BTW: Work and family and time preclude me from travelling to St. Louis. Hope you all have a great time.
Okay, okay. Enough already with the emails asking me to return. Didn't realize that I was that popular. Sheesh, even had the Edmunds senior board host call me So nice to feel da luv, as they say!
So now you get to put up with my rather warped sense of humour again.
Just to set the record straight I didn't have a beef with anyone one individual. What I was seeing the board do was turn into a gripe session. I know we all go through cycles where we seem to get real down on the LS or on Lincoln but it just seemed to me(personal opinion here) that we were stuck on the negatives. Now I don't expect that everything we talk about will be positive. We don't have a perfect car.
But what I would like everyone to think a little about is part of what makes this particular forum a wonderful experience is that we have very active involvement of the Lincoln and Ford marketing and engineering people. Constructive criticism is always a good thing, and I will be the first to say that there are things that should be changed in the LS. There are some build quality issues that still need resolution. There are dealer service issue that will probably never be solved to our satisfaction.
But I don't think berating Lincoln constantly about LSD, manual V-8s(guilty!), more power or why they haven't jumped in and made changes instantly because we ask them to is a good thing.
Remember that this car, like everything else, goes through a typical 3 year development cycle. The 2002 car was bolted down around Xmas 2000. They are working on the 2003 now. Lincoln didn't really know the reaction to this car when they first started working on the 2001 and 2002 because the car hadn't been introduced to the public yet. This was a completely new arena for Lincoln, similar to Porsche building an Oldsmobile Vista Cruiser.
So guess when we will start to see some real improvements? It is unrealistic and ridiculously expensive to a car line to be changed post-lockdown. So there aren't going to be any big changes for 2002. There will be changes for 2003 that will reflect some of what we have talked about on this board. That is a part and parcel of a 3 year development cycle.
FYI. 75% of all LSes are leased. Of the 75%, 66% of them are 3 year leases, most likely through Ford's Red Carpet Lease. And, please I don't care about the stock fiasco last year with Ford. Yes, they could have spent their time and money more wisely, but then again, none of us work there.
So let's continue critiquing the car in a constructive manner. I know that problems can be very frustrating to deal with, especially when you have a car that seems to have been built on a New Year day after the big party with everyone hung over, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and it's not a train headlight We'll help you work through the problems, one way or another. If we can't at least we'll try to make you laugh a little!
This forum is a much better place with you - I will again feel good about reading it - not that I stopped, but you're right - we need to stay positive.
Can anyone make me feel positive about Nasser's decision not to market Lincoln in Europe? I wanna stay with the brand but feel like we'll get overlooked with the likes of the X-and S-Types.
"American Luxury" is not a bad target; but darn it all, let's go beyond these shores in terms of design and attitude.
Which leads me to ask: Has Ford designated a Premier brand to beat BMW? Guess if it's not stated policy, the odds are with Jaguar.
I would probably agree with you that it's Jaguar. Let's look at the similarities:
1. Both global. 2. Both with a rich racing and performance luxury heritage. 3. Both with fanatically loyal owners, usually repeat buyers, probably similar demographics. 4. Both have a luxury cachet about the brands. 5. Both "European". It's in quotes because I realize that some BMWs are made in NC.
The S-type squares off against the 5-series in price, the X-type against the 3-series. Both of these are pretty comparable in terms of quality, price and performance to the respective BMWs.
The link a few posts ago that indicated that Lincoln wasn't going to be marketed outside North America was extremely interesting. . .and would go a long ways toward explaining why the things some of us have been commenting on (complaining about) are occurring. Those of us with manual LS's who thought we'd be supported long-term because "no one buys a car in Europe without a manual" can now consider our futures with a bit more information. Last I heard the manuals were under 2% of total sales, but I think over 1%. If they've managed to sell 45,000 LS's per year, and we're coming up on the 2nd anniversary of retail sales, there are somewhere between 900 and 1800 manuals. Sorta brings into focus why there's less than zero interest in a V8 with a manual back there in Michigan (or is it California?), doesn't it?
Based on what we were told in January (at LS Mania I), a lot of the reason this car is how it is has to do with the XX countries the thing was supposed to have been designed to be sold in (pardon that preposition at the end). Now that we're down to two (that would be Canada & the U.S.), perhaps we can hope for a chip and other design parameters that aren't "all things to all people."
For some reason I left the office early and decided to stop for gas on the way home. While pumping the $1.59 premium (bwahhahahah) the attendant was out raising the numbers to $1.65 *yikes* a 6¢ increase in one whack!
Thomas, you have got nothing to complain about at $1.65 a gallon for premium, as I am sure everyone from California will agree. But even here in Denver, reg unld is running at about $1.65 and I actually saw a station the other day that exceeded that damned $2 mark ($2.02 to be exact). That's the first time I have ever seen a $2 price in our area.
Bruno - who went from a 4 cyl. 30 MPG car that took reg unld to the LS (but never disappointed by the change)
Mark - I expect to be attending. I am VERY glad that you and some of your (clearly very brave!) associates will also be there. The more the merrier - particularly late in the evening..... Are we placing small wagers on who will lap the race track quickest? Cheers, - Ray Expecting to leave 5,000 miles of tire rubber on the track in one day...
I happened to have run my 2000 LS8 Sport from the Atlanta area to Clearwater, FL and back last week. Averaged (car computer and "manual" method) very close to 25 mpg.
This was about as close to ideal conditions as I ever see in the 'real world'. Meaning: One cold start - at the start of each 500 mile day. Moderate temps. One person - traveling light. Only 2 stops each way. Virtually all Interstate - cruising with light traffic 95+ percent of the way. Rarely below 65 mph - and rarely over 80.
A previous car I owned (Pontiac Grand Prix GTP, w/supercharger and a 15% HP / TQ boost, from a smaller s/c drive pulley) would return 28 to 29 mpg under the same conditions.
By way of comparison - The GP was a V6, HP: 240 TQ 280 @ 3200 (stock) - and weighed about 3600. EPA: 18/28. The LS8 HP 252 / TQ 267 @ 4300 - and weighs about 3700. EPA: 17/24.
So I could beat the EPA hiway estimate by about one mpg under these same conditions in each car. 29/25 = over 15 percent better.
YMMV.
Cheers, - Ray Who still misses the low speed torque of that GTP...
Comments
I think what makes the LS8 so attractive is that it doesn't really have many direct competitors (the Olds Aurora has a V8 with a similar price). The LS8 compares favorably with the 528, A6, and GS300 . . . but obviously, these are very refined 6 cylinder cars. Lincoln hit a sweet spot in the market here. I'd continue buying an American V8, particularly if its cheaper, over a 6 cylinder import if my performance is better and quality similar.
I think I'm rambling now, but I don't think that the LS8's gas mileage "sucks".
I see several people complaining about poor fuel mileage. After 20K+ miles, my overall mileage, including city driving, trips, and everything in between is 20.5 MPG. I have developed a "light foot" for city driving, and can usually average about 17 MPG in the city. If I get bogged down with a lot of stop and go situations, mileage will drop to 15 or 16, but very seldom less than 15 and by the time I have to fill the tank the city driving mileage is almost always close to 17 MPG. If I do a lot of urban freeway driving, mileage improves to 18 or 19 MPG. On open highway driving, typical of long trips, we see 23-25 MPG. At typical 80 MPH cruising, our LS8 gets right at 23.5 MPG.
From what I've seen of other posts, this is pretty much the typical LS8 mileage experience. If you are seeing much worse than this, and your car has at least 3000 miles on it, I think you either have a heavy foot or something may need adjusting in your fuel system.
The LS8 is not that heavy. Isn't a pickup or van. Doesn't use a huge engine. But the car is lucky to get 24 mpg during interstate cruising. V-8 DeVille and host of other similarly sized & weighted cars with comparable engines will do better on interstate. My 4,200 pound '96 Impala SS w/5.7L OHV V-8 gets about 2 mpg better at 74-84 mph. The overdrive 5th gear needs to be numerically lower in the LS8. Would go long way toward improving cruising distance on a tank of gas.
Then to pull up and have to use premium while the Northstar V-8 DeVille, Seville, or Eldo guy next to me, who just went 500 miles on the interstate on a tank of gas, gets to save 20 cents a gallon buying 87 octane regular.
Notwithstanding, the Cadillac, Lexus, Infinity, and BMW, Mercedes, Audi V8s come in significantly higher priced cars. I'm not sure what you have in mind for "host of other similarly sized & weighted cars with comparable engines".
Either way, I'm not disappointed with my mileage.
As an aside: What's the mileage on your Impala for "city" driving?
Off for a weeks' vacation tomorrow. Please, all you cranky people, try not to let this board slide any farther downhill. I'd like to be able to find it when I get home.:)
Peace & prosperity
Scott
My theory is that Manual editions don't succeed unless the model has a performance "image". Like the early manual GS300, the LS Manual is developing the "why shift a luxury car" syndrome. BMW avoids that by selling a "Manual is performance" image. BMW owners expect a higher performing car with a Manual. They can see the difference in the car mags and in the model line-up. Not so with the LS: "Like what are the numbers?" You can't fool the enthusiast crowd - they read C&D, Automobile and R&T.
Besides the IS300, the upcoming Focus and Nissan SE-R will feature the Getrag six-speed in FWD form ala Audi. Truly, Getrag six-speeds will become ubiquitous. And if the econoboxes can have them, why not the LS?
The problen with the Getrag design (or is it German philosophy) is that most of their 5 speeds have no overdrive fifth gear. The Japanese 5 speeds had them, but now the six-speed is taking over. And the Japanese are switching to the Getrag and putting these only in "performance" models. So I think LM should install the Getrag 6 in the V-6 and designate it as a performance model. It could be advertised in the car mags, while the LS V-8, the TC and Conti could be advertised in Modern Maturity, Sunset and Golf mags and not alienate the "American Luxury" buyers. I'm sure the marketing guys can figure this out without dreaded "crossover". The demographics are available for any kind of campaign. But I wouldn't start without working on product identity and direction first, and getting the LS to a credible performance level is the first step.
I have a very annoying squeak coming from the rear drivers side door/window of my '00 V-8 non-sport. I wanted to see if any of you had this problem and if it may be related to the infamous rear window issue. It happens all the time except on the smoothest of roads and it is driving me crazy.
Any thoughts?
Thx..
Rambling mode off.
As for fuel economy, if you can afford a car like this, doesn't that mean you are a person of above average intelligence? Wouldn't such a person rather spend less on fuel and more on other things, all else being equal??? Extra dough can be used to upgrade speakers, add wood, etc. Why let the Caddy drivers save all the money by getting better mileage and needing only regular 87 octane?
My 1990 Sable LS had both an instantaneous MPG and an average MPG readout. It also had dual sun visors. It seems ironic that my 2000 LS falls short in those categories (but not in many others!).
The Manual could then be "LM's Dirty Little Secret" or the "Black Sheep" of the LM family or the "Closet Smoker". I'd like to see the car more as a "Skunk Work's Car" or something exotic and rare. You would need little advertising for the right performance package. The word gets around.
Pulled out '92 AAA Auto Test mag/book. It says the Lexus SC300/400 introduced the summer of '91 as a 1992 model. The SC300 came standard w/5-speed manual and the 3.0L 225 HP 24V DOHC I-6 engine. Thus Lexus sold the manual SC300 for 6 model years: 92-93-94-95-96-97. Not too bad. The '95 AAA Auto Test discussed both the SC400 auto and SC300 manual: "the SC300 with the manual transmission accelerated just as fast [as the 4.0L V-8 4-speed auto, at 7.3 secs] and gave us 20 mpg [versus a bit under 17 mpg for the V-8]."
Now I want to find an old SC300 manual full test report. Appears LS6 manual Sport competitive w/former SC300 manual, as it should be since both weigh about 3,600 pounds.
I am now at an overall average (calculated) of 17.80 mpg city/hwy. The car's computer has consistantly reported the mpg within 2% of my calculated mpg (sometimes higher, sometimes lower) and now averages out to 17.92. I can get 23 to 24 mpg in strict hwy driving doing 70 to 80 mph. And I do have a heavier foot than most. :-)
Joe
Overall mileage is 17.73; my trip computer consistently registers .1 to .3 higher than actual. Best tank so far was 22.24 MPG, nearly all on the highway at 75-80 with three people onboard.
The only thing that's slightly troubling about the mileage is that it's virtually identical overall to what I got in my '96 Mark 8, but that car had 38 more HP from a 4.6 liter engine and weighed just about the same. Hope the LS continues to improve...
So it seems that us LS owners think, and drive alike...
My last car was a '92 Mark 7 LSC. It had 225 hp, was an old technology 5 liter V8, was heavier, and used standard gas. My driving habits haven't changed but that car got only a couple of tenths less avg mpg than my LS. I think this is why everyone is curious about why the LS doesn't get better fuel economy.
I don't consider this a big deal. Afterall, if you can afford a Lincoln, you can afford a few cents more per gallon. And I certainly wouldn't want to sacrifice power for mpg, but one has to wonder why all of this new technology hasn't resulted in better economy.
Joe
To do this: With the door open look into the latch opening and use a pen or other suitable instrument to close the latch. Observe how the latch pawls move and note surfaces that contact each other when opening and closing. Apply lubricant to the black (overmolded covering) with a Q-Tip or brush on the sliding surfaces. This should eliminate the noise , if it is the one that I am familiar with.
Dick
Regarding mileage, I don't lose any sleep over it, but the comparison to the Mark VIII or Continental is valid. One would expect the LS to do a little better than those but it doesn't. The running change from the 3.58 axle ratio to the 3.31 on the V8 improved the EPA rating from 23 to 24 but I am not sure if real world mileage is any better. I think perhaps there are improvements that could be made on the intake and exhaust characterisics of the 3.9. Ford is traditionally pretty conservative on ignition timing, too. I still would like to see a displacement increase, VVT, and a higher OD ratio in 5th. I am not whining! After 32,000 miles, I like the car better than I did when I first got it. Incidently, I picked it up exactly 2 years ago this week. Happy birthday, Silver!
Bruce
If the street date is this fall, then won't Lincoln have to start production no later than August...just three months plus change away? So where are the images/pics?
only had 48,000 miles and was in excellent condition....so my suggestion is if you have to, I would try and sell my trade to a private party rather than try to work both ends of a deal..Good Luck !!!!!
I had my windows tinted several week after I bought the car
I had the front side windows done "legal" with the back and rear windows done the next darker tint. I am really happy with it and most people think it makes the car look much better.
I didn't notice any change in the radio reception. However I dint get the metallic tint.
Thanks to Ronniepooh for his referral...
The windows and car look great but...
Here we go again.
I've had heated seat failure
Windows crashed
AC problem
EXT Temp misread ( which screws up the AC function)
Lots of squeaks and rattles.
Lumbar switch failure
trans problems
ball joint recall
Noisy vent control ( when AC comes on a loud sqeaking noise is heard from behind the center vents)
intermittant brake problem ( chattering in front of the brake pedal area when applied)
Dash light problems( they sometimes dim for no reason)
The after car is turned off you can still close the windows for 10 minutes thing works when it wants to.
However I haven't had the drone, wind noise, or any fliud leaks of any kind. So I should be happy.
Thank Heaven I didn't respond to the consumer reports survey or the Reliability rating would have been worse.
Sorry I could care less about a V8 with more power, A manual V8( I'm way too lazy to shift)
or the benefits of a gertag trans or inline V6, or my ability to do a quarter mile in 6.7 secs.
IMHO the reason this car is not selling better is because since Bush was appointed president people are buying cars that get 40 mpg so they can afford the price of gasoline.(OK that one was for fun)
Kevin
V8 2000 LS 15000 miles Cordovan with light graphite interior, auto, moonroof, audiophile system with polished aluminum wheels.
Regarding the LS's somewhat low gas milage, I wonder if some of the other vehicles that the LS is being compared to are "Low Emmissions" vehicles. Defying all logic is seems that everytime emmissions are further reduced gas mileage suffers.
I believe that the Job 1 date for the '02 LS is July 16. Last year the Lincoln plant shut down the first two weeks of July for the model-year changeover, and I think that's a typical pattern. Dealers got their '01 order books at the end of May last year; I saw the LS order sheet on June 3 and my order was entered & accepted on June 5 or 6. I would expect this year's info to be available in a similar fashion, but that's just a guess on my part.
Don't hold your breath for the VVT heads...;-)
The deadline is June 12th to insure a fun filled week end of fun and adventure in the St. Louis area on the weekend of July 12th through the 15th.
Please make your reservations early to make sure that you will enjoy yourself. See the details at www.llsoc.com to register for a weekend of your fellow enthusiatis
Do you suppose the fact that the LS in automatic mode always starts in 1st gear and perhaps spends a bit more time revving could reduce the city driving mileage?
For a while, I experimented with using SST mode in city driving, and I got the feeling it may have improved the mileage a little bit. However, the hassle wasn't worth it, so I went back to using automatic mode in city driving... After all, isn't that one of the big advantages of an automatic transmission?
I'd have to do some research; don't remember the Mark's axle ratio or tranny ratios. I don't recall the EPA rating, either, nor do I remember the RPM at speed in 4th. (Am I a blank slate, or what?
What's odd is that the Mark got better highway mileage, and the LS is better in town. I could get 23-24 on the highway in the Mark with ease, and got as high as 26.5 at times. The LS has barely cracked 22 on a highway trip. The big caveat here, though, is the fact that I bought the Mark used. It was 8 months old and had 8k miles when I got it, so I have no idea what the mileage was from the start, and I'm not really comparing apples to apples at this point.
It may well be that the LS V8 takes longer than I would expect to become fully broken-in. The highway mileage has improved slightly over the past couple of months. I'll be doing another 500-mile round trip the first weekend of June, so it'll be interesting to compare the results from the same trip a couple weeks ago. (Interesting to me, at any rate...;-))
Blows my mind yet do I care? No, the Lexus is nice for Sunday yet everytime I drive my LS, I think about how much better it is than the BMW 528 that I almost bought.
http://wcbs880.com/trouble/StoryFolder/story_1172054846_html
Obviously, I took it for a spin and I was very impressed. His car had about 15,000 miles on it and it revved freely and the shifter was very slick. I thought second gear seemed particularly strong. It sure seems to make good use of 210 horsepower. My cousin loves it and has forgotten all about his Maxima.
I know there aren't a lot of manuals out there but I sure have a new appreciation for that combination. I see why you guys who have one seem to really like them. While it may be only 3%, I wonder if the manual buyers aren't among the most satisfied LS owners.
Bruce
I'm planning on it, along with several of the engineers from my area.
Mark
George
BTW: Work and family and time preclude me from travelling to St. Louis. Hope you all have a great time.
So now you get to put up with my rather warped sense of humour again.
Just to set the record straight I didn't have a beef with anyone one individual. What I was seeing the board do was turn into a gripe session. I know we all go through cycles where we seem to get real down on the LS or on Lincoln but it just seemed to me(personal opinion here) that we were stuck on the negatives. Now I don't expect that everything we talk about will be positive. We don't have a perfect car.
But what I would like everyone to think a little about is part of what makes this particular forum a wonderful experience is that we have very active involvement of the Lincoln and Ford marketing and engineering people. Constructive criticism is always a good thing, and I will be the first to say that there are things that should be changed in the LS. There are some build quality issues that still need resolution. There are dealer service issue that will probably never be solved to our satisfaction.
But I don't think berating Lincoln constantly about LSD, manual V-8s(guilty!), more power or why they haven't jumped in and made changes instantly because we ask them to is a good thing.
Remember that this car, like everything else, goes through a typical 3 year development cycle. The 2002 car was bolted down around Xmas 2000. They are working on the 2003 now. Lincoln didn't really know the reaction to this car when they first started working on the 2001 and 2002 because the car hadn't been introduced to the public yet. This was a completely new arena for Lincoln, similar to Porsche building an Oldsmobile Vista Cruiser.
So guess when we will start to see some real improvements? It is unrealistic and ridiculously expensive to a car line to be changed post-lockdown. So there aren't going to be any big changes for 2002. There will be changes for 2003 that will reflect some of what we have talked about on this board. That is a part and parcel of a 3 year development cycle.
FYI. 75% of all LSes are leased. Of the 75%, 66% of them are 3 year leases, most likely through Ford's Red Carpet Lease. And, please I don't care about the stock fiasco last year with Ford. Yes, they could have spent their time and money more wisely, but then again, none of us work there.
So let's continue critiquing the car in a constructive manner. I know that problems can be very frustrating to deal with, especially when you have a car that seems to have been built on a New Year day after the big party with everyone hung over, but there is a light at the end of the tunnel, and it's not a train headlight
Brian(who has received his new Nomex-wear!)
Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards
Can anyone make me feel positive about Nasser's decision not to market Lincoln in Europe? I wanna stay with the brand but feel like we'll get overlooked with the likes of the X-and S-Types.
"American Luxury" is not a bad target; but darn it all, let's go beyond these shores in terms of design and attitude.
Which leads me to ask: Has Ford designated a Premier brand to beat BMW? Guess if it's not stated policy, the odds are with Jaguar.
I would probably agree with you that it's Jaguar. Let's look at the similarities:
1. Both global.
2. Both with a rich racing and performance luxury heritage.
3. Both with fanatically loyal owners, usually repeat buyers, probably similar demographics.
4. Both have a luxury cachet about the brands.
5. Both "European". It's in quotes because I realize that some BMWs are made in NC.
The S-type squares off against the 5-series in price, the X-type against the 3-series. Both of these are pretty comparable in terms of quality, price and performance to the respective BMWs.
Based on what we were told in January (at LS Mania I), a lot of the reason this car is how it is has to do with the XX countries the thing was supposed to have been designed to be sold in (pardon that preposition at the end). Now that we're down to two (that would be Canada & the U.S.), perhaps we can hope for a chip and other design parameters that aren't "all things to all people."
Or not.
Bruno - who went from a 4 cyl. 30 MPG car that took reg unld to the LS (but never disappointed by the change)
I expect to be attending.
I am VERY glad that you and some of your (clearly very brave!) associates will also be there.
The more the merrier - particularly late in the evening.....
Are we placing small wagers on who will lap the race track quickest?
Cheers,
- Ray
Expecting to leave 5,000 miles of tire rubber on the track in one day...
I happened to have run my 2000 LS8 Sport from the Atlanta area to Clearwater, FL and back last week. Averaged (car computer and "manual" method) very close to 25 mpg.
This was about as close to ideal conditions as I ever see in the 'real world'. Meaning: One cold start - at the start of each 500 mile day. Moderate temps. One person - traveling light. Only 2 stops each way. Virtually all Interstate - cruising with light traffic 95+ percent of the way. Rarely below 65 mph - and rarely over 80.
A previous car I owned (Pontiac Grand Prix GTP, w/supercharger and a 15% HP / TQ boost, from a smaller s/c drive pulley) would return 28 to 29 mpg under the same conditions.
By way of comparison - The GP was a V6, HP: 240 TQ 280 @ 3200 (stock) - and weighed about 3600. EPA: 18/28. The LS8 HP 252 / TQ 267 @ 4300 - and weighs about 3700. EPA: 17/24.
So I could beat the EPA hiway estimate by about one mpg under these same conditions in each car. 29/25 = over 15 percent better.
YMMV.
Cheers,
- Ray
Who still misses the low speed torque of that GTP...