I have a major complaint here. I was disgusted, horrified, amazed and shocked to see one of our beloved LS's defaced and marred for life. Yes folks, today I saw live and in person a 01 black, LS complete with curb feelers and add-on white walls!! It is lurking the streets of CLeveland! I saw it parked at a downtown meter today. I was actually tempted to wait on the sidewalk for the owner to return to their vehicle. I had to meet and see this person. Unfortunately there was still about 45 minutes left on the meter and I would be late for a meeting.
I thought my list was impressive except mine is opposite to yours as it includes what you have'nt had problems with, like several oil leaks. Maybe our cars were built by the assembly line's children on "bring the kids to work day" or maybe it was government day "close enough for government work"
Can you describe you brake problem? I have had intermittent brake problem in where it feels like there is a restriction in the pedal when depressing and then it snaps back up at you with a thud/bang type sound. Seems to be more frequent in wet weather but not restricted to it.
The LS is a great car for the price. If it had perfect build quality then Lincoln would probably charge >$38K (540 prices) and that would put me out of the range I accept for something that its main object is for basic transportation from point A to B but having fun doing it.
George, By pressing the SETUP button above the stereo, I can switch from English to Metric (shocking to watch the odometer go from 9k to 15k!), and I can turn off auto lock, easy entry, and lock chirp.
I haven't tried turning off auto lock, but I assume that means that the doors won't lock when you reach the preset speed. I may be wrong, but I don't think you can program them to automatically unlock when you stop.
I know we have the cheapest gas here - hence the evil laugh There was an article in the Sunday paper pointing out the regional pricing. I was just amazed at my timing of leaving the office early and beating the 6¢ increase! Usually I am the guy that turns on the pump 0.01 sec AFTER the increase.
Having all the doors unlocked is not possible in the V8 with the computers, otherwise I would have done it already. It is on my list to have reprogrammed at my first 5K service. Just a convience that I had gotten used too with my old Tarus and now it bothers me when I walk up to a passenger door in the morning and it is locked, or the passengers in the back have to manually move the lock to open (if I don't hit the unlock button) because the rear doors won't open if the locks are engaged (and child proof is not engaged). I think it is reprogrammable, but I will live with it until it's time for service.
One thing to be cautious of is the easy exit feature. Normally, I drive with my seat all the way back. However, when a passenger rides behind me, I pull it forward. The thing I found to be cautious of is that when you remove the key to get out, the seat starts moving back and the passenger in the rear seat better be prepared or not have too long a legs. I was able to stop the seat by catching the button and holding it forward. But the first couple of times, this nifty little feature is a surprise. As with the closing of windows, I think that it should have pressure switch that prevents it from crushing anything on the floor behind the seat. If there were a child down there, it could be a liability issue for Lincoln, something they may want to consider addressing if they have not.
I love the fact that the steering wheel gets out of the way, but maybe the seat is pushing it on the easy exit and maybe there should be a way to just move them individually and/or both. If anyone knows if this is programmable, please let me know?
Thanks, John. I must've been mistaken about the all-doors-open option. Although my dealer still hasn't gotten back to me on whether he can do it.
My red LS is in for it's first oil change (2200 miles) Also, had to get them to fix the rear driver door window. Switch on rear door doesn't work, but the one on the driver door for that window does work. Problem has probably been there since day 1. One of my daughter's friends sat back there and found the problem.
A friend of mine noticed another problem I hadn't seen - The rear passenger door had an area about the size of a pack of smokes where the paint didn't look right. Could actually see a dimple about 1/2 the size of a dime outlined under the paint. Rivet or fastener maybe? Dealer body shop says they fixed it and looks great. I'll see tomorrow.
All else great with my LS, cept 2 elec gremlins: one is that the seat doesn't always go back when the car is turned off - but strangely this happens only when my wife drives it. Other one: I got home from work one day last week shut er down and got out of the car and pressed the trunk open button on the fob. Nothing. Tried the one on the dash. Nothing. Gas door worked, but not trunk. Put key in ignition and turned to ON and back OFF. Then it worked again.
As for mileage, I'm not terribly impressed with my V6 yet. 5 fillups so far, 4 avg'd just under 19, one was almost 22. Probably 2/3 of the miles are hiway, but not flat - up and down 1800 ft pass. Twice a day. My '93 Mark8 would get consistently over 22 on this drive. It got over 26 when we drove to Irvine with 4 people and luggage for LS Mania 1.
Have a loaner Sable LS wagon right now. Kinda like it. Great feature is the adjustable pedals. Has a 200hp Duratech mounted transversly under the hood. Feels peppy enuf for this car. Car rides quite well. But my LS is better, if a bit stiffer. The Sable also just doesn't have that solid, confident feel at freeway speeds I've become used to. Compared to the LS, I mean. Compared to a Dodge Stratus I had when my van was in shop 2 weeks ago, Sable is better and quieter on the road. Don't like the torque steer of the FWD though.
I'm glad I'm one of those 75%ers with a 3 year lease. Hopefully when my lease is up the 2003 will be add most of what we have been whining for in new features and upgrades. I've seen reports in several rags. that Jag and Lincoln are working on a new 3.3L V6. Hopefully the Lincoln version will have 240 HP and 250 ft lb of torque and make it into the 2003LS. Such a V6 with the message center would really increase the attractiveness of the V6 and help Lincoln's CAFE.
Your comment about "perfect build quality" being costly sounds like a Detroit engineer and manufacturing manager pre-1980. As Deming, Juran, and the other quality gurus taught Japan in the 1950s, it is no more costly for Honda to build a well built Civic or Accord than a 3.2TL or 3.5 RL. More options, features and more luxurious materials will raise the price, but building a reliable, trouble-free car doesn't cost. In fact, when you factor in re-work, warranty work, recalls, TSBs, customer complaints, lost sales, etc. quality pays for itself. It is much cheaper to build things right the first time and work hard to continuously improve them than to not do it this way. When the Japanese learned and applied this, they started building the best quality cars in the world, regardless of whether they were economy, sport or luxury. Guess that is why cars like the Civic and NSX are considered outstanding for quality. They start their model cycle well built and usually end it being even better built.
Ford claimed to adopt this mentality back in the 80s with the "Quality is Job 1" campaign. Can't say I really see Ford touting total quality management or continuous quality improvement much anymore.
I think there IS a "pressure" switch. I have found that if I am holding the steering wheel hard (I was trying to reach something on the dash), the seat did not go all the way back. Also, when returning to position 1, if I am leaning back with my feet on the floor or on the brake pedal, (I was trying to reach something on the right rear floor), it did not return to where I had the seat before. It stopped short of it. Maybe it is not a safety device, just an inability to overpower a well wedged in driver?
Ok, had a chance to play with it on the way home from work. There is a pressure switch on the seat, seems to take about 20lbs or more of force, as the motor boggs down, it shuts off. This is for the seat, so cool, a good safety feature.
However, Joe166, I wasn't able to stop the steering wheel. It would bogg down, but continue to move. Maybe I didn't bogg it enough, but I didn't want to break it trying to prove you right.
Don't assume that the LS is only being sold in the U.S. and Canada. Just because Lincoln won't be sold in Europe doesn't mean the car isn't selling in the rest of the world. Russia(kinda funny if you think about it!), Middle East and Far East sales take up about 5% of LS sales per year. Don't know what the breakdown of manuals to automatics are for the foreign market but I'm sure it is a higher percentage than our 2% share.
Now you manual owners know that if they stopped making manuals, considering the relatively small number of them out there, you would own a collector car With that small a number they should increase in value quite rapidly......
1. Welcome back Brian! Still hope to see you in MI this summer 2. George: this may not be the concern that you described, but sometimes owners of the 2001's inadvertantly hit the Valet switch in the glove box which disables the trunk switches. This has caused some owners to bring their cars in for service when it is not needed. 3. As I am at home right now I can't look it up, but as I recall the seat memory feature moves rearward a specific amount when the key is removed, not to the end of the track. If the seat is already with-in that distance from the end of travel it does not move. I don't recall how tall Whitney is, but if her legs are longer than yours (my wife's are longer than mine) that may be the reason. 4.Lastly, Although I don't believe I can make it to LS Mania II, on June 1st, 2nd, and 3rd I'll be at the "Mercathon" Mercury Owners get together during the All-Ford Nationals at Carlisle, PA. I'll be the one standing next to the mean looking 2003 Marauder, so stop by and say Hello if you get a chance.
I'm JEALOUS!! The CHEAPEST I could find today was ARCO for $2.099 The Chevron that I usually frequent, and was lower than Arco, was $2.149! Most stations are in the $2.249 range! It really is getting tough living in Paradise!
I'm in a quandry. My son just bought an '87 Mustang GT convertible with the 5spd manual . My "problem" is how to seperate him from his keys! My LS is soooo much more refined, but his car is an ABSOLUTE kick to drive! It needs a little work (the top is manual and the air consists of the top down), but for $3400 what do you expect? It has only 107k on the odo. No leaks and you can get rubber in all 5 gears! Gotta go and try to steal some keys! Oh. There ain't no way he's driving the Lincoln!
but just read the Jag X type review in the current Car and Driver magazine. As we all know, the Jag as a 230hp version of the Duratec found in the LS. The V6 is described as having smoothness "on par" with german inline 6's, or something like that..hmmm..
I waited awhile before reporting on the latest Transmission reflash, since the previous one reverted to it's old ways after a couple of weeks. This time everything seems perfect. Its been about a month, and it has only gotten better. No more long waits for a D to R switch, no more surprises when I stand on the gas. Also had an overheating problem(happened last summer, then disappeared over the winter) fixed by replacing the thermostat. Now if I could get the other window assembly replaced before it breaks in the middle of a storm, everything would be perfect. Still love it after 18,000 miles.
It's so nice to have you back where you belong. My apologies to Louis Armstrong.
Re 2554. Curb feelers and whitewalls???!!!! Is this the automotive equivalent of a "full Cleveland?" Sorry, I couldn't resist. Seriously though, I think this stuff is partially the fault of the way Ford has marketed the car. There are still legions of people who still think this is nothing more than an entry level Lincoln. I saw a new ad on TV last night. They were pushing the new incentives. A brief MTV type clip of an LS paired once again with a Navigator. Whoopee. Exciting as watching paint dry.
Ask yourself if you have ever seen this stuff on a BMW, even a 3-series ("entry level").
Mike- my son had an 89 GT H/B, 5 speed headers, Magnaflows, 3.73 gears, MAF upgrade, cold-air kit, Motorsport clutch, underdrive pulleys, open hood scoops, etc., etc. I'm sure it was fun (had the bald rear tires to prove it), but I never drove it and he can't use the Lincoln unless I'm in the passenger seat.
1. C&D: From their test of X-type... "a few instrumented acceleration runs revealed that the measured 0-to-60 mph time of 6.3 seconds was only 0.2 second slower than the small BMW. We would rate the smoothness of the X-type's V-6 to be SIMILARLY CLOSE to that of the Bavarian in-line six." Close but still behind. Second is still second. Why be second?
Did you note how C&D raved about the new GM 4.2L I-6 in the tested Chevy Trailblazer LT that bested the Ford Explorer XLT 4.0L V-6? "Stirring engine sounds... No one will complain. The engine is smooth, quiet, and stron, powering to 60 mph in 7.9 seconds, easily besting the others." The heavier, more powerful Chevy also produced better fuel economy numbers & test results than the Ford.
2. Motor Trend: From their test of X-type... "These well balanced, 60 [degree] V-6s also proved quiet when driven in a civilized manner, ALTHOUGH THE INLINE-SIXES FOUND IN BMW 3 SERIES MAINTAIN A SLIGHT EDGE IN TERMS OF SMOOTHNESS AND OVERALL POLISH." Once again, second best is second best.
In the same issue, did you see how MT raved even more about GM's new 4.2L I-6, calling it "a breakthrough" and that it "work[s] wonders"?
Hey if all I needed to do was pay 50¢ a gallon to get your weather and nearby beach WOW! My wife is from Santa Barbara and they have the same high gas pricing. At least there you can get away from the "good" neighborhoods to pay a little less. Gas in outside the city usually runs 5-10¢ less.
I can also feel your pain about the 87 GT. NOT! Hehehe because I have the keys to my 87 GT (a Fiero GT not a Mustang). About the best it will do is chirp 2nd but it's a whole lot of fun, really noisy and quick, and relatively cheap to fix when it breaks. This is the car I bought to do autocross in lieu of the LS. The LS holds it's own but when I blow up the engine or tranny it would probably cost me more than $500 in junkyard parts to put it back on the road.
I didn't mean to imply that the steering wheel stopped. I just meant that the seat stopped when I had a death grip on the steering wheel and exerted pressure while trying to "adjust" my pants or reach into the back seat for something. I did think (but never tried to prove) that this might explain some of the complaints about the driving positions not resuming after the car was restarted. I still get a slight adjustment about half the time when I push the driving position #1 button after the car is started but before I take it out of neutral. Since I had not changed the position while driving, this seems proof positive that there is some variation in the position the seat and steering wheel return to each time. It is very seldom that I actually notice the difference and when I do it is almost always the steering wheel being in a slightly different position. No big deal, but along with the phantom beeps, not particularly confidence inspiring. Makes me wonder how accurately the stabili Trac (or whatever it is called) will react if I really needed it.
I did find a squeak in an unusual place. My solution may help others, I almost never found it. My squeak was in the headliner where it ends at the rear window. I put some small rubber pieces between the headliner and the roof at the rear window (there is a gap there)and it seemed to solve the problem.
In celebration of Brian's return, I promise to not use the term "LSD" and I will not even touch the "inline-six" issue. I enjoy my LS Manual daily and overall, it is the best performing car I have owned. I'm sure even the M5 has shortcomings (probably the monthly payment). I haven't filled up with my $2.14 a gallon Chevron 92 octane yet this morning, but I have over 300 miles on this tankful with a little less than 1/4 tank remaining. This could have something to do with the change to Mobil 1 10-30 about two weeks ago. I now have 12,200 miles on the car and I don't think the car was really fully broken in until 10k was on the clock. The car has this interesting "growl" at high rpm and revs so much more freely now. Welcome Back Chief!
So, do synth oils like Mobil 1 increase gas mileage? Or is it performance? Or both? And what is the cost tradeoff, meaning, how much extra does the synth oil cost versus how much you save in gas spending, a quantifiable effect? Or, how much better the performance feels, a qualifiable effect?
I never used synth oils and would like the opion of some who have. I really don't need the performance increase, but would like to see if it is worthy to help save on fuel costs?
I know many may think that this post may not be the forum for this message, but I think we as owners of this Ford product should be advised about company policies. I for one will never again buy a Ford product or use any of their services until this issue is resolved.http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22838
Just switched to Mobil 1 - 5W 30 oil at 15,000 miles (V6). Now have 17,000. With the new syn oil and the 01-01-05 reflash, this car is even more refined feeling than before. It has really found its sweet spot! I couldn't recommend it more!
A neighbor just bought a LS 8. She had a Dodge Stealth before(FWD.) Noticed a couple of black marks where she pulled out onto the highway with the LS...
I saw this LS at the small-town Ford dealer that she bought this LS from. I recall reading "2000 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC" on the description line... that sums up LS awareness in the USA.
I continue to have a sporadic problem with a "oil" burining coming from engine. About every 300-600 miles this problem repeats itself.
A puff of white smoke came from the hood/fender the other day passenger side and also enters into my A/C system. Actually had a friend see it and think my car was on fire!
It smells like an oil but recently it was more pungent and actually made me get out of my car for the first time.
By the time I open the hood the smoke is gone, but can still smell the burning slightly while trying to diagnose where its coming from.
Any ideas? Its at the dealership today, but if they can't find it, see it, repeat it, they can't do anything about it. My guess is that it won't happen in the next day or two, because it only seems to happen after a while, which makes me think its a buildup problem.
Well, since you brought it up, I read the article and I have to say that your stance is just that, your stance. Me, being a black man, completely understands the case of discrimination. However, I don't find the company at fault because someone complains. That is what the court system is for. If the courts determine Ford is liable, then so be it, but this is my opinion. The courts are what gave blacks the majority of the liberties we have today, so I do have faith in them. My company uses similar practices, but I know we don't pick one over the other, it is more a change on how we go about recruitment. My company, being a Fortune 500 company, is probably very similar to Ford. Hence, why I caution finding fault because some people are upset over being fired and of course, use a lawsuit as recourse. Hope I didn't open up too big a can of worms, but I don't like to be judged prematurely, and I am sure that Ford nor the plantiffs like it either.
Well, just got a call from my LM service advisor. My car is ready and they *were* able to reprogram it so that all doors unlock when the car is shut off. For some reason I don't understand (and he didn't either) they also had to reprogram the key fobs for this. I'm trying to interpret some conflicting things he said which sounded like maybe when they did this, it unavoidably also causes all 4 doors to unlock with one press of the fob unlock button, but I can't be sure. I'll let y'all know tomorrow when I get the car.
There are lots of other issues I'd like to address as well (one of which is I found myself, Gulp, strongly agreeing with one of Giowa's recent posts :>) but I'll post more about these later.
For now, thanks to Dick Cupka for addressing my 2 glitches above. As to the valet switch? Nope, I've never touched it. As for the seat not moving back when Whitney drives it? She's shorter than I and has the seat far forward. Your post might explain what's happening though. Perhaps the seat is moving a prescribed distance back from where she's got it set. Then when I get in, I notice it being far forward of where it moves back to when I get out, and I assume it hasn't moved back at all.
Yeah, this is one I was going to comment on as well. I could say a whole lot on this issue, but all I want to say at this point is, how would it be, Jeff, if this was the quote from the head of Ford Credit, Don Winkler:
"We went to headhunters who didn't find us 51-year-old black males."
To answer your question, it is typical of journalist and lawyers to take statements our of context. Hence, while it may be the case, it also may not, so I choose not to judge on the limited facts. However, if I were a juror and had to hear all the facts, then I would pass judgement accordingly. That is all I am saying, not that I am biased. I don't believe in discrimination or reverse discrimination for that matter, just that people tend to make unrational judgements because the media or lawyers try to play it that way. Time will tell the truth of this matter.
I just filled up the tank and hit the 20mpg mark for the first time. Texaco Premium 92 octane "California Gasoline" was $216.9 a gallon and that's average to lower here in San Diego. This is the first time I've used Mobil 1 so I will compare it to the oil I have used since 1974 in all my cars - Amsoil 100% Synthetic 10-30, the first syn oil for cars (since 1972). I think Amsoil may be a slight bit better but it is difficult to obtain and I am tired of the procurement game. Why Syn oil? To quote March 1999 Pop Sci page 82: "Both synthetic and standard motor oil come from petroleum products originally derived from naturally occuring crude oil.But as you might guess from the name, synthetic oil is the creation of chemists. Standard motor oil, on the other hand, is a refined version of the crude oil that sits in underground deposits until it is pumped. The most natural oil is far from the best or the most efficient, however, when it comes to your engine. In its natural state, crude oil is a cocktail of thousands of different compounds, many of which would interfere with engine lubrication or damage your motor if poured into the crankcase. Ideally, the refinement process removes most of the other compounds so that only those that are best for engine lubrication are left in the motor oil. Realistically, however, this is difficult to do, and small amounts of other petroleum products - such as gasoline, kerosene and waxes - remain. Synthetic oil is made to order, and so has virtually none of these extra compounds. In essence, synthetic oil is an artificial ultra-refined oil. The true difference between the two types of oil can be seen only at the molecular level. The molecular building blocks of all petroleum compounds are hydrocarbons, chains of carbon and hydrogen atoms. Naturally derived motor oils may contain hydrocarbons of various lengths, all of which perform differently with changing temperature. The light hydrocarbons, like gasoline and kerosene, vaporize at high temperatures and are too thin to lubricate high-speed metal parts like pistons. Heavy hydrocarbons, such as the waxes, can become sluggish or even solid at low temperatures, making the pumping of oil difficult. High engine temperatures can also sever the long hydrocarbon chains. In contrast, the molecules of synthetic oil are almost entirely uniform, which increases its stability across a wide range of temperatures. This uniformity also tends to produce fewer engine deposits and prolongs the time between oil changes". My experience with engines is that engine life is very much related to how long the top piston ring stays free and able to expand. With regular oil, the oil tends to coke and freeze the top ring. That's the beginning of the end. Syn oil has a much higher burning temp, minimizing this problem. It also keeps your engine licking clean inside and outside, since vapors from regular oil deposit on the engine and collect dirt. Sludge is rare or non-existant. Oil life is longer, and your engine uses less since the top end doesn't boil off. All jet engines have used syn oil only since the 1940's. It also helps the engine run cooler because it has superior heat transfer (thermal) properties. The diff lubricant in the LS is synthetic. The use of Syn lube in your auto tranny will really increase its life. I currently use Redline MTL Synthetic in my Getrag in the summer (I use 50-50 MTL and Redline Syn Mercon in the winter). I even change my wheel bearing grease to synthetic. Cost? If you like your car, plan to keep it, and want increased component life, Syn oil is worth it. It is factory fill in at least the Corvette. A good price on Mobil 1 10-30 is what I paid - $25.74 for a case of six bottles. Castrol Syntec is being challenged for the use of the word 'Synthetic". The whole story was in Car and Driver magazine. It costs the same as Mobil 1 so you make the choice.
The whole controversy over Castrol Syntec is covered by columnist Patrick Bedard at www.carand driver.com. Type in "Patrick Bedard" in the search box and drill down to November 2000.
Can anyone steer us to a scientifically done independent longitudinal test, with control group, that studied the real world impact of synthetic versus "natural" oils? If they are so good, it shouldn't be hard to show us the research? (And I don't mean studies done by Castrol, Amsoil, Mobil, etc.)
When people discuss synthetics, they often don't discuss how they are actually using them. Are we talking about the oil being changed, along with filter, every 5,000 or less miles or going 10,000 or more miles? I have never seen any research that showed a conclusive advantage to synthetic if high grade "natural" oil is changed every 5K or less along with filter.
11/00 issue of C&D has Patrick Bedard's comments on the synth labelling controversy. In addition, he discusses the purported merits of synth. He can't find proof it is better. And, as he points out, the synth makers still recommend changing your oil every 3,000 miles.
I respect your opinion as well, of course. Couple of points, though: The Nasser quote, as I understand it, though I have not seen it myself, is on a videotape used in Ford "diversity training". Personally, I'm very pissed that he would say that. And I wouldn't care if the adjective applied to 'faces' was white, black, red, green, ugly or whatever. But if it *had* been black or brown, eg, how quickly do you think the US Justice Dept would have descended on Detroit? Second, I don't believe in discrimination of any kind. You say you don't either, yet you also say your Fortune 500 company: "uses similar practices [to those of Ford], but I know we don't pick one over the other, it is more a change on how we go about recruitment." This is pretty strange territory. If your company has a goal of "diversity" then, by definition, your company will choose *anyone* over a white male, all else equal. Believe me, reverse discrimination exists. I've seen it in the USAF, I've seen it at NASA and I've seen it in corporate America. Now, we probably should find a different forum for this conversation before it hits the fan. So I hope we can agree to disagree and focus on one of the things we have in common: the Lincoln LS.
Oil used in gas turbine engines (aka aircraft engines) are NOT used primarily for lubrication. The primary use of oil is for cooling only. The above quote provided by stanny is somewhat misleading in this regard. I am a former development engineer for gas turbine engines, and I can assure you, lubrication is a distant, secondary benefit of oil. Oil is used to cool the main engine bearings in a gas turbine engine. Water would be preferential to oil if it didn't have the tendancy to boil-off and or vaporize at altitude.
Other than the sentence or two about "aircraft engines" I thought the article stanny quoted was insightful and accurate. In my humble, and somewhat educated opinion, I have no doubt that syn oils are much better than non-syn oils as they apply to the internal combustion engine, however, I cannot attest to their "cost effectiveness" over non-syn oils, particularly when one changes oil at intervals less than 5K miles.
Yes I have, more than once on both 3 & 5 series. I've seen big whitewalls, padded vynal tops, all kinds of grotesque spoilers, huge chrome exhaust tips, Chrome grills, wheel well trim, door edge trim plus gold kits!
Better than dino oil. Period. Much better hight temp protection. Flows much better at sub-freezing temperatures. Very glad I had Mobil1 in my LS when it overheated 4 times a few weeks ago. (hole in coolant hose that was eventually replaced). Previous cars: 1988 Acura Integra, traded in with 156,000 hard high-revving miles. Engine still ran strong, with no blue smoke. Used Synthetic oil and factory filters every 15,000 miles. 1992 BMW 318is. Changed oil/filter approximately every 12,000 miles. 110,000 miles when totalled. Engine tight as a drum/no blue smoke.
I believe that if you go to the SAE site (Society of Automotive Engineers) and spend the time to search their papers you will find 41 technical papers that have to do with synthetic lubricant qualities and tests versus petroleum-derived lubricants. Each cost $10.00 to download for non-members.
I, for one, have been a firm believer in high-quality synthetic oil since 1979 when I first used it in my 1979 Turbo Capri 2.3L race car. With a modified engine that had a turbo boost of 10psi(5 more than stock), the engine lasted the equivalent of over 100,000 miles without a major teardown.
Every car I've owned that I've used synthetic motor oil in has consistently gained approximately 1 mpg or more increase as compared to petroleum-based oils. I also do an oil analysis on my oil prior to changing it to determine if it needs to be. I normally go about 15,000 miles between oil changes on the street unless the analysis kit tells me different and I've done this pretty consistently over the years without any noticeable wear on the engine.But that is just MY personal observations and nothing scientific about it. As I pointed out if you really are dying to know, ante up the 10 bucks for each of the papers. Here are the papers that relate to the subject of oil lubrication. The web address is: www.sae.org
8. Paper: 2000-01-2920: Formulation Capabilities with API Group III Synthetic Base Fluids
9. Paper: 2001-01-1969: The Influence of a Commercial Oil Recycler on Oil Quality from a Bus in Service Using Synthetic Oil
12. Paper: 982002: Evaluation of Application Related Properties of Hydraulic Fluids by Laboratory Tests and Experiences with Biodegradable Fluids in Laboratory and Field
13. Paper: 982005: A Report on the Field Test Performanceof a Soybean-Based Hydraulic Oil
14. Standard: ARP4249: Bearing Corrosion Test Method
19. WebPage: Toward Improved Fuel Economy in Passenger Car Motor Oils: An Investigation into the Influence of Detergent System & Friction Modifier as Measured by the EPA Federal Test Procedure and Highway Fuel Economy Test Cycles
20. WebPage: SAE Aerospace Propulsion Division
22. Paper: 1999-01-3464: Development of a Wear Test Procedure to Evaluate Automotive Lubricating Oils
23. Paper: 2000-01-1822: Evaluation of Oil Performance Using the TU High Temperature Engine Test with a View to Extending Oil Drain Intervals
24. Paper: 2000-01-1913: Impact of Fuel and Oil Quality on Deposits, Wear and Emissions from a Light Duty Diesel Engine with High EGR
25. Paper: 2000-01-1992: Development of High Performance Heavy-Duty Diesel Engine Oil to Extend Oil Drain Intervals: 5W30 Fully Synthetic Oil Containing MoDTC
26. Paper: 2000-01-1993: Performance of an Advanced Synthetic Diesel Engine Oil
27. Paper: 2000-01-2922: Alkali Metal Salt/Arylamine Antioxidation System in Synthetic Lubricants
Wow, thanks for the feedback Stan, very detailed and informative. I have never used Syn oil and wanted some personal opinions on user experience with it. Couple your comments with Brian's and I am sold. If you can go at least 10K or more miles between oil changes, and the MPG is slightly better, then it just may be that the Syn pays for itself. Not to mention the performance and feel boost it may give. I guess at the 5K mark I will opt for a switch. But here is the kicker, I am leasing and I may not keep this LS at lease end, so is it possible to go back to regular oil after using syn oil? And, I guess I will have to go for the 5K interval due to warranty considerations, is this an accurate assumption?
Just out of curiosity, in the Army, they used to have a kit to test the oil on the vehicles, helping to know when they needed changing. Brian, since you said you do the same, where do you get such a kit?
Not to be a wet blanket or anything, but I used syn in my Sable. I never noticed any mpg gain. Not a tenth. The car gets the same mileage no matter what oil I use. As the Sable is the "occasional use only" car, I've switched back to dino. I need to change the oil every 3 months as the car isn't driven often or far enough to heat the oil sufficiently to burn off any condensation. For me it is the economics with this car. I'm still vasilatting on whether to switch to syn when I have to pay for the oil changes. There is a very interesting forum on this subject over in Maintenence and Repair. I plan on changing every 3-5k anyway. If I have to go to all the trouble of changing the filter, I figure I might as well do the whole job.
Given that nearly all cars specify dino oil tells me that the manufacterers have thoroughly tested and understand the characteristics of their engines when using dino oil. I know the Corvette is one exception to this, as GM specifies syn oil in this application. This is not to say that dino oil is better than syn oil, just the opposite, there is a huge body of evidence that PROVES syn oil is a better product. My point is, dino oil, when changed at the intervals specified by the manufacterer, is sufficient to maintain the overall health and performance of your engine over its normal life expectancy. I agree that you MAY see improved performance from your engine if you use syn oil, but no one will guarantee that (note ezaircon4jc's experience), although it would be reasonable to expect it. This debate is less a matter of "bad vs. good" and more of "good enough vs. better".
However, I'm not so sure it is a good idea to change back to dino oil once you've used syn oil as I believe there are issues relating to engine seals that do not react well to backward change. In all, I'm still on the fence with syn oil. First, I believe if it were completely safe to use (for the engine, not the driver), the OEMs would endorse it with their owners manuals (LM does not for the LS). Second, the cost is greater for syn oil, regardless who pays for the oil changes, and last, when dino oil is changed per the OEMs recommendations, the engines will operate as designed. FWIW.
I think theres also an added benefit in fewer oil changes. How so? Ever notice how long your red oil warning light stays on after chaning your oil? Takes a few seconds for the oik pressure to build up/for your oil filter to fill with new oil. That dry start has to be harder on your engine. I figure that 1 dry start every 15,000 miles vs. 5 dry starts (changing oil every 3k miles) is better. Thats just me.
Now after all of this positive talk about synthetics, I think we all know there is still one member on this forum who will make 9000 posts trying to convince everyone that dino oil is better than synth. Not that he actually believes it, but just because it's an attempt to stir the pot. Lets not let that occur guys.
Your original post said "If it [the LS] had perfect build quality then Lincoln would probably charge >$38K (540 prices)." All I was pointing out is that quality does NOT cost. It saves money. It is actually cheaper.
Yes, smart buyers want more reliable cars. So buyers tend to be willing to pay more for better built cars. But building a more reliable, troublefree car is no more expensive. From a pricing and marketing strategy standpoint, it can allow a manufacturer to charge a slightly higher price (all other things being equal), but the pricing determination is one based on marketing and profit factors, and not due to any increase in costs associated with using TQM/CQI to build a more reliable car. The same manufacturer could use the cost advantage to actually charge less and grab market share. Who wouldn't buy more of a less expensive, well built product?
I just happened to notice that I see no "condensate pool" underneath the car after having parked it having been running the AC. I realize this is a function of many variables but I'm recollecting that I have most always noticed a little drainage after stopping on the other vehicles I've owned. It's not something you normally think about and I have no idea why the thought struck when it did but now I am curious. I did a quick check to see if the carpets were wet thinking maybe the drain was plugged or kinked but all was OK. Next time someone parks their car after having the AC on, if you think about it, take a quick peek and see if you can see any condensate dripping down anywhere.
Comments
Mark
Can you describe you brake problem? I have had intermittent brake problem in where it feels like there is a restriction in the pedal when depressing and then it snaps back up at you with a thud/bang type sound. Seems to be more frequent in wet weather but not restricted to it.
The LS is a great car for the price. If it had perfect build quality then Lincoln would probably charge >$38K (540 prices) and that would put me out of the range I accept for something that its main object is for basic transportation from point A to B but having fun doing it.
By pressing the SETUP button above the stereo, I can switch from English to Metric (shocking to watch the odometer go from 9k to 15k!), and I can turn off auto lock, easy entry, and lock chirp.
I haven't tried turning off auto lock, but I assume that means that the doors won't lock when you reach the preset speed. I may be wrong, but I don't think you can program them to automatically unlock when you stop.
One thing to be cautious of is the easy exit feature. Normally, I drive with my seat all the way back. However, when a passenger rides behind me, I pull it forward. The thing I found to be cautious of is that when you remove the key to get out, the seat starts moving back and the passenger in the rear seat better be prepared or not have too long a legs. I was able to stop the seat by catching the button and holding it forward. But the first couple of times, this nifty little feature is a surprise. As with the closing of windows, I think that it should have pressure switch that prevents it from crushing anything on the floor behind the seat. If there were a child down there, it could be a liability issue for Lincoln, something they may want to consider addressing if they have not.
I love the fact that the steering wheel gets out of the way, but maybe the seat is pushing it on the easy exit and maybe there should be a way to just move them individually and/or both. If anyone knows if this is programmable, please let me know?
Jeff
My red LS is in for it's first oil change (2200 miles) Also, had to get them to fix the rear driver door window. Switch on rear door doesn't work, but the one on the driver door for that window does work. Problem has probably been there since day 1. One of my daughter's friends sat back there and found the problem.
A friend of mine noticed another problem I hadn't seen - The rear passenger door had an area about the size of a pack of smokes where the paint didn't look right. Could actually see a dimple about 1/2 the size of a dime outlined under the paint. Rivet or fastener maybe? Dealer body shop says they fixed it and looks great. I'll see tomorrow.
All else great with my LS, cept 2 elec gremlins: one is that the seat doesn't always go back when the car is turned off - but strangely this happens only when my wife drives it. Other one: I got home from work one day last week shut er down and got out of the car and pressed the trunk open button on the fob. Nothing. Tried the one on the dash. Nothing. Gas door worked, but not trunk. Put key in ignition and turned to ON and back OFF. Then it worked again.
As for mileage, I'm not terribly impressed with my V6 yet. 5 fillups so far, 4 avg'd just under 19, one was almost 22. Probably 2/3 of the miles are hiway, but not flat - up and down 1800 ft pass. Twice a day. My '93 Mark8 would get consistently over 22 on this drive. It got over 26 when we drove to Irvine with 4 people and luggage for LS Mania 1.
Have a loaner Sable LS wagon right now. Kinda like it. Great feature is the adjustable pedals. Has a 200hp Duratech mounted transversly under the hood. Feels peppy enuf for this car. Car rides quite well. But my LS is better, if a bit stiffer. The Sable also just doesn't have that solid, confident feel at freeway speeds I've become used to. Compared to the LS, I mean. Compared to a Dodge Stratus I had when my van was in shop 2 weeks ago, Sable is better and quieter on the road. Don't like the torque steer of the FWD though.
Ford claimed to adopt this mentality back in the 80s with the "Quality is Job 1" campaign. Can't say I really see Ford touting total quality management or continuous quality improvement much anymore.
However, Joe166, I wasn't able to stop the steering wheel. It would bogg down, but continue to move. Maybe I didn't bogg it enough, but I didn't want to break it trying to prove you right.
Jeff
Now you manual owners know that if they stopped making manuals, considering the relatively small number of them out there, you would own a collector car
Just joking about the last part!
Brian
2. George: this may not be the concern that you described, but sometimes owners of the 2001's inadvertantly hit the Valet switch in the glove box which disables the trunk switches. This has caused some owners to bring their cars in for service when it is not needed.
3. As I am at home right now I can't look it up, but as I recall the seat memory feature moves rearward a specific amount when the key is removed, not to the end of the track. If the seat is already with-in that distance from the end of travel it does not move. I don't recall how tall Whitney is, but if her legs are longer than yours (my wife's are longer than mine) that may be the reason.
4.Lastly, Although I don't believe I can make it to LS Mania II, on June 1st, 2nd, and 3rd I'll be at the "Mercathon" Mercury Owners get together during the All-Ford Nationals at Carlisle, PA. I'll be the one standing next to the mean looking 2003 Marauder, so stop by and say Hello if you get a chance.
Dick
Oh. There ain't no way he's driving the Lincoln!
Please, please do not show the same Marauder at Carlisle that was on display at the NY Autoshow, unless it's repainted.
Re 2554. Curb feelers and whitewalls???!!!!
Is this the automotive equivalent of a "full Cleveland?" Sorry, I couldn't resist. Seriously though, I think this stuff is partially the fault of the way Ford has marketed the car. There are still legions of people who still think this is nothing more than an entry level Lincoln. I saw a new ad on TV last night. They were pushing the new incentives. A brief MTV type clip of an LS paired once again with a Navigator. Whoopee. Exciting as watching paint dry.
Ask yourself if you have ever seen this stuff on a BMW, even a 3-series ("entry level").
Mike- my son had an 89 GT H/B, 5 speed headers, Magnaflows, 3.73 gears, MAF upgrade, cold-air kit, Motorsport clutch, underdrive pulleys, open hood scoops, etc., etc. I'm sure it was fun (had the bald rear tires to prove it), but I never drove it and he can't use the Lincoln unless I'm in the passenger seat.
1. C&D: From their test of X-type... "a few instrumented acceleration runs revealed that the measured 0-to-60 mph time of 6.3 seconds was only 0.2 second slower than the small BMW. We would rate the smoothness of the X-type's V-6 to be SIMILARLY CLOSE to that of the Bavarian in-line six." Close but still behind. Second is still second. Why be second?
Did you note how C&D raved about the new GM 4.2L I-6 in the tested Chevy Trailblazer LT that bested the Ford Explorer XLT 4.0L V-6? "Stirring engine sounds... No one will complain. The engine is smooth, quiet, and stron, powering to 60 mph in 7.9 seconds, easily besting the others." The heavier, more powerful Chevy also produced better fuel economy numbers & test results than the Ford.
2. Motor Trend: From their test of X-type... "These well balanced, 60 [degree] V-6s also proved quiet when driven in a civilized manner, ALTHOUGH THE INLINE-SIXES FOUND IN BMW 3 SERIES MAINTAIN A SLIGHT EDGE IN TERMS OF SMOOTHNESS AND OVERALL POLISH." Once again, second best is second best.
In the same issue, did you see how MT raved even more about GM's new 4.2L I-6, calling it "a breakthrough" and that it "work[s] wonders"?
I can also feel your pain about the 87 GT. NOT! Hehehe because I have the keys to my 87 GT (a Fiero GT not a Mustang). About the best it will do is chirp 2nd but it's a whole lot of fun, really noisy and quick, and relatively cheap to fix when it breaks. This is the car I bought to do autocross in lieu of the LS. The LS holds it's own but when I blow up the engine or tranny it would probably cost me more than $500 in junkyard parts to put it back on the road.
I never used synth oils and would like the opion of some who have. I really don't need the performance increase, but would like to see if it is worthy to help save on fuel costs?
Thanks,
Jeff
A neighbor just bought a LS 8. She had a Dodge Stealth before(FWD.) Noticed a couple of black marks where she pulled out onto the highway with the LS...
I saw this LS at the small-town Ford dealer that she bought this LS from. I recall reading "2000 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC" on the description line... that sums up LS awareness in the USA.
I continue to have a sporadic problem with a "oil" burining coming from engine. About every 300-600 miles this problem repeats itself.
A puff of white smoke came from the hood/fender the other day passenger side and also enters into my A/C system. Actually had a friend see it and think my car was on fire!
It smells like an oil but recently it was more pungent and actually made me get out of my car for the first time.
By the time I open the hood the smoke is gone, but can still smell the burning slightly while trying to diagnose where its coming from.
Any ideas? Its at the dealership today, but if they can't find it, see it, repeat it, they can't do anything about it. My guess is that it won't happen in the next day or two, because it only seems to happen after a while, which makes me think its a buildup problem.
thanks in advance,
Eric
Jeff
http://www.autonews.com/html/main/stories/ford516.htm
There are lots of other issues I'd like to address as well (one of which is I found myself, Gulp, strongly agreeing with one of Giowa's recent posts :>) but I'll post more about these later.
For now, thanks to Dick Cupka for addressing my 2 glitches above. As to the valet switch? Nope, I've never touched it. As for the seat not moving back when Whitney drives it? She's shorter than I and has the seat far forward. Your post might explain what's happening though. Perhaps the seat is moving a prescribed distance back from where she's got it set. Then when I get in, I notice it being far forward of where it moves back to when I get out, and I assume it hasn't moved back at all.
George
"We went to headhunters who didn't find us 51-year-old black males."
Or had Nasser said:
"I do not like the sea of black faces ... "
George
Respectfully,
Jeff
This is the first time I've used Mobil 1 so I will compare it to the oil I have used since 1974 in all my cars - Amsoil 100% Synthetic 10-30, the first syn oil for cars (since 1972). I think Amsoil may be a slight bit better but it is difficult to obtain and I am tired of the procurement game.
Why Syn oil? To quote March 1999 Pop Sci page 82:
"Both synthetic and standard motor oil come from petroleum products originally derived from naturally occuring crude oil.But as you might guess from the name, synthetic oil is the creation of chemists. Standard motor oil, on the other hand, is a refined version of the crude oil that sits in underground deposits until it is pumped.
The most natural oil is far from the best or the most efficient, however, when it comes to your engine. In its natural state, crude oil is a cocktail of thousands of different compounds, many of which would interfere with engine lubrication or damage your motor if poured into the crankcase. Ideally, the refinement process removes most of the other compounds so that only those that are best for engine lubrication are left in the motor oil. Realistically, however, this is difficult to do, and small amounts of other petroleum products - such as gasoline, kerosene and waxes - remain. Synthetic oil is made to order, and so has virtually none of these extra compounds. In essence, synthetic oil is an artificial ultra-refined oil.
The true difference between the two types of oil can be seen only at the molecular level. The molecular building blocks of all petroleum compounds are hydrocarbons, chains of carbon and hydrogen atoms. Naturally derived motor oils may contain hydrocarbons of various lengths, all of which perform differently with changing temperature. The light hydrocarbons, like gasoline and kerosene, vaporize at high temperatures and are too thin to lubricate high-speed metal parts like pistons. Heavy hydrocarbons, such as the waxes, can become sluggish or even solid at low temperatures, making the pumping of oil difficult. High engine temperatures can also sever the long hydrocarbon
chains.
In contrast, the molecules of synthetic oil are almost entirely uniform, which increases its stability across a wide range of temperatures. This uniformity also tends to produce fewer engine deposits and prolongs the time between oil changes".
My experience with engines is that engine life is very much related to how long the top piston ring stays free and able to expand. With regular oil, the oil tends to coke and freeze the top ring. That's the beginning of the end. Syn oil has a much higher burning temp, minimizing this problem. It also keeps your engine licking clean inside and outside, since vapors from regular oil deposit on the engine and collect dirt. Sludge is rare or non-existant. Oil life is longer, and your engine uses less since the top end doesn't boil off. All jet engines have used syn oil only since the 1940's. It also helps the engine run cooler because it has superior heat transfer (thermal) properties. The diff lubricant in the LS is synthetic. The use of Syn lube in your auto tranny will really increase its life. I currently use Redline MTL Synthetic in my Getrag in the summer (I use 50-50 MTL and Redline Syn Mercon in the winter). I even change my wheel bearing grease to synthetic.
Cost? If you like your car, plan to keep it, and want increased component life, Syn oil is worth it. It is factory fill in at least the Corvette.
A good price on Mobil 1 10-30 is what I paid - $25.74 for a case of six bottles. Castrol Syntec is being challenged for the use of the word 'Synthetic". The whole story was in Car and Driver magazine. It costs the same as Mobil 1 so you make the choice.
When people discuss synthetics, they often don't discuss how they are actually using them. Are we talking about the oil being changed, along with filter, every 5,000 or less miles or going 10,000 or more miles? I have never seen any research that showed a conclusive advantage to synthetic if high grade "natural" oil is changed every 5K or less along with filter.
11/00 issue of C&D has Patrick Bedard's comments on the synth labelling controversy. In addition, he discusses the purported merits of synth. He can't find proof it is better. And, as he points out, the synth makers still recommend changing your oil every 3,000 miles.
The Nasser quote, as I understand it, though I have not seen it myself, is on a videotape used in Ford "diversity training". Personally, I'm very pissed that he would say that. And I wouldn't care if the adjective applied to 'faces' was white, black, red, green, ugly or whatever. But if it *had* been black or brown, eg, how quickly do you think the US Justice Dept would have descended on Detroit?
Second, I don't believe in discrimination of any kind. You say you don't either, yet you also say your Fortune 500 company: "uses similar practices [to those of Ford], but I know we don't pick one over the other, it is more a change on how we go about recruitment." This is pretty strange territory. If your company has a goal of "diversity" then, by definition, your company will choose *anyone* over a white male, all else equal. Believe me, reverse discrimination exists. I've seen it in the USAF, I've seen it at NASA and I've seen it in corporate America.
Now, we probably should find a different forum for this conversation before it hits the fan. So I hope we can agree to disagree and focus on one of the things we have in common: the Lincoln LS.
Other than the sentence or two about "aircraft engines" I thought the article stanny quoted was insightful and accurate. In my humble, and somewhat educated opinion, I have no doubt that syn oils are much better than non-syn oils as they apply to the internal combustion engine, however, I cannot attest to their "cost effectiveness" over non-syn oils, particularly when one changes oil at intervals less than 5K miles.
Are you a journalist/lawyer as you seem to take many postings out of context!!
Synthetic works for me..
I, for one, have been a firm believer in high-quality synthetic oil since 1979 when I first used it in my 1979 Turbo Capri 2.3L race car. With a modified engine that had a turbo boost of 10psi(5 more than stock), the engine lasted the equivalent of over 100,000 miles without a major teardown.
Every car I've owned that I've used synthetic motor oil in has consistently gained approximately 1 mpg or more increase as compared to petroleum-based oils. I also do an oil analysis on my oil prior to changing it to determine if it needs to be. I normally go about 15,000 miles between oil changes on the street unless the analysis kit tells me different and I've done this pretty consistently over the years without any noticeable wear on the engine.But that is just MY personal observations and nothing scientific about it. As I pointed out if you really are dying to know, ante up the 10 bucks for each of the papers. Here are the papers that relate to the subject of oil lubrication. The web address is: www.sae.org
8. Paper: 2000-01-2920: Formulation Capabilities with API Group III Synthetic Base Fluids
9. Paper: 2001-01-1969: The Influence of a Commercial Oil Recycler on Oil Quality from a Bus in Service Using Synthetic Oil
12. Paper: 982002: Evaluation of Application Related Properties of Hydraulic Fluids by Laboratory Tests and Experiences with Biodegradable Fluids in Laboratory and Field
13. Paper: 982005: A Report on the Field Test Performanceof a Soybean-Based Hydraulic Oil
14. Standard: ARP4249: Bearing Corrosion Test Method
18. WebPage: SAE Automotive Fuels & Lubricants Database: Content and Sources
19. WebPage: Toward Improved Fuel Economy in Passenger Car Motor Oils: An Investigation into the Influence of Detergent System & Friction Modifier as Measured by the EPA Federal Test Procedure and Highway Fuel Economy Test Cycles
20. WebPage: SAE Aerospace Propulsion Division
22. Paper: 1999-01-3464: Development of a Wear Test Procedure to Evaluate Automotive Lubricating Oils
23. Paper: 2000-01-1822: Evaluation of Oil Performance Using the TU High Temperature Engine Test with a View to Extending Oil Drain Intervals
24. Paper: 2000-01-1913: Impact of Fuel and Oil Quality on Deposits, Wear and Emissions from a Light Duty Diesel Engine with High EGR
25. Paper: 2000-01-1992: Development of High Performance Heavy-Duty Diesel Engine Oil to Extend Oil Drain Intervals: 5W30 Fully Synthetic Oil Containing MoDTC
26. Paper: 2000-01-1993: Performance of an Advanced Synthetic Diesel Engine Oil
27. Paper: 2000-01-2922: Alkali Metal Salt/Arylamine Antioxidation System in Synthetic Lubricants
28. Paper: 981444: Advanced Synthetic Passenger Vehicle Engine Oils for Extended Oil Drain Performance
29. Paper: 981448: Used Oil Analysis and Study of Oil Drain Period in Gasoline Engine
30. Paper: 981489: Environmentally Acceptable Hydraulic Fluids Based on Natural Synthetic Esters
36. Paper: 982718: Extended Oil Drain Performance Capabilities ofDiesel Engine Oils
37. Standard: ARP424: Bearing Corrosion Test Method
Just out of curiosity, in the Army, they used to have a kit to test the oil on the vehicles, helping to know when they needed changing. Brian, since you said you do the same, where do you get such a kit?
Jeff
However, I'm not so sure it is a good idea to change back to dino oil once you've used syn oil as I believe there are issues relating to engine seals that do not react well to backward change. In all, I'm still on the fence with syn oil. First, I believe if it were completely safe to use (for the engine, not the driver), the OEMs would endorse it with their owners manuals (LM does not for the LS). Second, the cost is greater for syn oil, regardless who pays for the oil changes, and last, when dino oil is changed per the OEMs recommendations, the engines will operate as designed. FWIW.
Now after all of this positive talk about synthetics, I think we all know there is still one member on this forum who will make 9000 posts trying to convince everyone that dino oil is better than synth. Not that he actually believes it, but just because it's an attempt to stir the pot. Lets not let that occur guys.
I have NEVER seen anything like you describe!
Yes, smart buyers want more reliable cars. So buyers tend to be willing to pay more for better built cars. But building a more reliable, troublefree car is no more expensive. From a pricing and marketing strategy standpoint, it can allow a manufacturer to charge a slightly higher price (all other things being equal), but the pricing determination is one based on marketing and profit factors, and not due to any increase in costs associated with using TQM/CQI to build a more reliable car. The same manufacturer could use the cost advantage to actually charge less and grab market share. Who wouldn't buy more of a less expensive, well built product?