Nice pictures on the site. I particularly liked the last shot that showed off the BBS RK wheels. These wheels also fit the LS (in an 18 x 7.5 inch size) and weigh only 17 lbs each.
GLeen: What's the price tag on a 530 with Euro delivery? The site didn't say. Is there a monetary reason for taking Euro delivery?
For those of you interested in wheel upgrades, the wheels mentioned above can be had for about $300 each, and shave about 5.4 lbs off the weight of the stock 17 x 7.5 inch Super Silver alloys (those weigh in at 22.6 lbs each -- I weighed them myself). I had these wheels fit checked on my LS, and they clear the brake calipers just fine. The offset is close to stock at 52 mm, so I'd bet they'll improve the handling even more (without spoiling the ride). My "toy" budget is a little tight for the moment, so I'll be waiting on this mod for awhile (that goes for the Borla system as well), but some day soon . . .
I'm pretty sure all BMWs being produced now are using the Bosch ME7 or similar control system. Bosch uses a torque-based electronic throttle control system and can do some wonderous things (um, I used to work for Bosch): -> Throttle control for speed and RPM limiting (no more stuttering rev limiters) -> Driveability can be improved because the powertrain control module has control over the throttle blade(s). Do a quick WOT and the throttle can open quick enough to give good response, but not too quick as to cause driveline shock. Heck, I think Lexus' "snow mode" (not bosch) slows down throttle response and limits opening to make the car more driveable on bad roads. -> Most improtantly - you (calibrator) can tune the throttle to open however you want it to regardless of the pedal position. My take on why the 525 and 530 *feel* like they have more torque than the LS8 is this: a. Lighter car b. A light "tip in" of the accelerator pedal opens the throttle (for example only) 50%. This way, you get the feeling of a lot of power at small pedal inputs. Sounds like something you could never fall for, but you will! You especially notice how powerful the car seems around town without even trying.
Also, we've been a bit rude to Gerard (Giowa, he didn't mention what route he test drove on, but he did write that he drove a V8 sport - you can seem aggressive to someone that doesn't know you;) Personally, I think it's great that a BMW owner stopped and considered the Lincoln LS before moving into his next BMW lease.
To me, that speaks volumes. The BMW owners I know are die-hards, just like most of the people that contribute to this list. Whether it is for the image of owning the marque or the pure satisfaction of how the car operates, BMW owners are very loyal customers.
Sdouglas2. Great post. One thing that I find interesting is peoples perceptions vs. real life stats, and which of the two matters most. To me, its the feel and perception. From the very beginning, my LS V6 Sport felt very quick to me. Period. I would have had no idea it was "slow" if certain persons on this board and their mothers didnt say so. :-) Consumers Reports and at least one other mag stated that the V6 LS's performance numbers were deceptive, as the car felt much quicker than the numbers revealed. So while the numbers are good for magazines, isnt it most important how the car feels to the owner/driver? The lower powered 525 might feel quicker than the LS8 to gleen. If thats the case, he has a right to say it/believe it without a lot of flak. When I was deciding on the LS, I test drove the LS V6 Manual and the LS V6 Auto. Drove both over the same test area. At the time, I could have sworn both were VERY close in acceleration. The numbers say differently. Ditto for the LS V6 Auto and the 528ia Sport I test drove back then. No one could have told me that the LS was slower in acceleration than the 528ia, but it is.
So, for online bragging, numbers are fine. But for everyday driving, go for feel and perception, in my book. Thats what really counts...
According to a little blurb in the National Enquirer of Ford Motor Co (aka BON), it appears that BON feels the 2004 Mustang is going to be built on a version of the DEW98 platform (LS).
If this turns out to be true it could mean some good things for us in the form of a) more horsepower, b) manual V-8.
Ok guys: As you know, my original front Sport pads on my V6 Sport LS worn out at around 33,500 miles. Replaced them with the O.E. pads from the dealer, but I specified the Non-Sport compounds, as it was reported on this board that the non-sports dust much less. Well, its a bit preliminary, but my informal studies are showing that the non-sport pads are SIGNIFICANTLY less dusty than the sports, with no noticeable performance trade off whatsoever. (During regular street driving...I assume on the track, the non-sport pads will probably succumb to brake fade earlier). Washed the car over the weekend, and ensured front and wheels were totally clean. Now have 89 miles on the car since the wash..combo city and highway...and brake dust is almost equal on the back rims as on the fronts! (For my fellow sport package owners, you know this is kind of amazing). Ran my finger across several portions of drivers side front and back, and again, only minimal light grey dust appears to be on the rims. With the Sport package, I could wipe my finger across the front rim after a 18 mile drive to work, and black dust would clearly be on my finger. A worthwhile "upgrade" in my opinion.b
It has been widely reported in the automotive media that the 2004 Mustang will be made on the "DEW98 Light" platform. Also a DEW98 Light Fairlane has been thrown about as a higher end replacement for the Taurus which is supposed to be downsized in the next version. This is a cost reduced DEW98 that most likely gets the fancy cast aluminum suspension arms replaced by stamped steel along with other cost reductions. Also reported in more than one place was that Ford was considering a stretched DEW98 replacment for the Crown Vic, Gran Marquis and Town Car but that this was dropped due to the high manufacturing cost of the DEW98. It has also been reported that the cost concious bean counters were pushing to have the 2004 LS update based on DEW98 Light.
There has been a lot of speculation on the Mustange engines with a 5.0 L version of the current Cobra engine DOHC mentioned frequently and a version of the 3.0 L V6 as the base engine. Also mentioned have been versions of the 4.0L V6 (Explorer), 4.6L SOHC and most recently the 3.9L LS / T-Bird engine has been mentioned. It seems unlikely that Ford would not have a manual V8 Mustang so we can hope that the V8 manual will spill over to the T-Bird & LS
I don't have the date or a link but there was a recent NY Times article about the death of manual transmissions in American cars. Like a breif thread this site had a few weeks ago the jist of the NY Times article was that most American drivers preferred to be entertained by their food & drink, cell phones, digital assistants, stereo systems etc. than by a shift it yourself gearbox. If I remember the article correctly it speculated that from a manufacturing economics standpoint it will soon be (if not already) financial foolishness for the manufacturers to offer manual transmissions on any US car.
A couple of people have asked about 525ia acceleration. According to the '01 BMW brochure, the 525ia has actually a pretty slow 0-60: 8.3 seconds. The 5-speed is still a not-great 7.8 seconds. For the 530, the auto and manual times are 7.0 and 6.8, respectively. For the 540, 6.0 and 6.2, but for that price you can have 1-1/2 LS'...!
Regarding Euro Delivery, I just bought a 530i manual that way. I saved a little under $3 grand on MSRP, plus the dealer (CarMax) further discounted the price a similar amount. Net, I paid $38,900 for a car with domestic MSRP of $44,300. Also, I got 5.9% for 60 months thru BMW. A pretty good deal, I thought.
For full details such as MSRP and invoice on ED, go to eurobuyers.com. I'm not endorsing this guy or anything, but his figures were accurate for the 525 and 530.
In a nutshell, ED is probably worth considering only if you wanted to go to Europe anyway. That said, I thoroughly enjoyed the process and it was a blast driving my car on the autobahns!
There are no Xenon Lights for next year. In fact it appears the changes are minuscule. Some colors have been deleted and others added. Full Alpine Audiophile System with AM/FM and 6 disc in dash CD changer (single loading) reinstated as standard audio system on Sport Package vehicles. Go to your nearest Lincoln dealer and ask to see the following: 2002 Lincoln LS MAJOR PRODUCT CHANGES this is an eight page fact sheet which will give you all information for the 2002 model year.
I posted about this last week. The article you seek was printed in the 5/28/01 issue of NY Times. Front page story. Headline, "Dad, What's A Clutch? Well, at One Time ..."
As the article points out, manuals comprise a mere 8.7 percent of today's American market, down from 12.4 percent in 1996. Article points out that the "new Lincoln LS" has one. Does a great service of pointing out fact manuals comprise a whopping 88 percent of European market. Quotes General Motor's spokesperson Kester as saying, "The European mind-set is A, you can't get good mileage with an automatic, and B, only weenies drive them." To add insult to injury, a NY Times story in same week discussed how much better the sex lives of the French are vis-a-vis Americans. Could it be because they drive sticks?
Check out the latest Motor Trend for some great pics on the new Tbird. Great two page spread of the dash (looks amazingly familiar but I can't put my finger on it). Part of the interior can be color matched to the exterior - it's way cool. J Mays said his was being prepared now - black with saddle interior plus - get this - a supercharger. They said the Tbird had a numerically higher rear gear than the V8 LS but did not specify. 0-60 was 7.0. Here's some really good news: the OEM tires are Michelin Pilots 235/50R17. I think it says mxm4 on the tire - hard to read. Michelin shows several sizes close to this on their web site (225/50R17 and 235/55R17 e.g.) so that's probably it. They're listed as grand touring H and V rated. Sounds like just the ticket for folks that don't like the Firestones. I don't mind the Firestones but I love Michelins. Pricey but great tires.
What happened to the postings with the name calling? Did the site censor erase them? I do not know why you fellow LS'ers are wasting your breathe/typing on convincing someone who had no intention of buying an LS. Look at all his reasons (poor ones or incorrect ones at that): no torque no acceleration poor leather poor quality etc and he will find more if your data shows he is wrong
Let this guy go spend his wad so he can impress his neighbors with his B M W
Speaking of dealers, it might be true that BMW service is superior (and they can afford to since they made an exorbitant amount of profit on the sale at your expense). In dealing with the dealer on purchasing I found the two I visited to be very arrogant in how dare you waste their time unless you pay MSRP and accept less than blue book trade in value on your trade and not tell you how much that might be until you sign the purchase agreement and then wait for your new vehicle and once it arrives then appraise your car and then tell you how much they are willing to give. Thus putting you into a position of accepting their low offer or having to deal with 2 cars.
To me it is better having one less LS on the road and one more BMW to match the many others like them who think they are driving an ultimate driving machine and trying to impress someone.
My copy arrived yesterday. Naturally, I went to the T-Bird article first.
How about them complaining about the too-soft shifts? I realize this is a pre-production model and I wonder if those are the final settings. We'll have to ask Mark. I'm flabbergasted that there's no SST.
I saw the review of the new T-bird on Motor Trend TV. The thing that amazed me (well... not really) was that the dash and console looked ripped out of the LS with little effort to make it unique. I'm thinking that will open up the option to get the T-bird white faced gauges for a ricey LS transplant.
With respect to CWZ's remark about snob factor and how the BMW dealer treated him: Sure maybe you have a better chance of dealing with pure dicks at some places because they have it and you don't. Plus, it's just that attitude that they are playing up to when they sell their exclusive brand X. On the other hand, I do agree that they don't have to be that way even in a seller's market.
When my wife and I started seriously looking at the new C240 we phoned all 3 Mercedes dealers in Atlanta. Only 1 or 3 was able to get a salesman on the phone reasonably quick. All I was asking them was 1. did they have a demo and 2. could I schedule a test drive. A receptionist could have done that. Anyway, we visited the one that would speak with us and were greeted with a very friendly, no-pressure sales effort. At that time (late Oct) we were told that, due to demand, they were only taking orders and getting MSRP on delivery (only $500 deposit on order, 90-120 day delivery). We also decided that we would just sell our extra car rather than take a beating at any dealer (we tried 3 others with really bad trade offers). A couple of months went by and our Mercedes guy called out of the blue. They were selling two demos would we be interested? We made an appointment, they had the car my wife liked, and the rest is history.
The fact is, I knew there would be no negotiating on that car because there were 20 others ready to jump on it if I passed. In fact, I overheard two couples discussing it near by as we were closing the sale. So I can honestly say there is one salesman working at one German marque dealer who is not a dick.
Your perspective is interesting, but still wonder what your priorities were/are when car shopping. Do you consider yourself an automotive enthusiast? If so, and being a multiple BMW owner yourself, I would think you are, how could you consider the front wheel drive I30? Its a nice car, but FWD is FWD. Period. Poor balance. The new Q45 is in a totally different price range than even a fully loaded LSV8, and has 345hp, if I recall. (I never quite understand folks who car shop with a HUGE range of price possibilities in mind) Also Interesting that you found that the LSV8 Sport didnt "come close" to your 528ia, when it outperforms it in just about every category. Heck, in Motor Trends comparison test, the V6 LS Manual came very close to the 528i Manual, particularly in BMW's strongest suite, handling, yet the LS has tons more room inside. I guess we simply dont understand your priorities. If you think the LSV8 Sport didnt "feel" as fast as your 528ia, maybe you simply needed to pull next to one at a stop light. Im fairly certain you'd get a great view of the purty tail lights of the LS. :-)
Again, if you didnt like the LS, thats cool. To each his own. But to say in one post it didnt have" enough pickup", then in another post say you would have bought it if it "came even close to your 528ia", when the LSV8 (and possibly the LSV6 Manual) will clearly outaccelerate the 528ia any day of the week, is contradictory and confusing.
Had the ball joint recall done (better late than never) - no problem. Trunk sticks intermittently - of course it worked fine at the dealer. Lubed latch. Brake vibration - diagnosed as rotor runout. Turned rotors. Works fine now. Found and repaired nail in front tire - had no idea it was there. $13.
Asked for reflash. Was first told that it had already been done (that was the original 12/99 reflash). Does anyone else find it amazing that the service writers have no idea what you're talking about when you give them a TSB number? I said it's TSB 01-01-05 with these symptoms. Blank Stare. But they must have figured it out because the shifts are almost perfect now. 2-3 under WOT was horrible (2-part shift with .5 second delay in between) and I was convinced it was a mechanical problem that the reflash wouldn't fix. So far so good - with some learning it should be even better although I'm happy with it now. Reverse engages right away. Great job Mark!
Now for the one thing they wouldn't/couldn't fix. Since day one (11/99) I've had a burning smell anytime I've held 2nd or 3rd gear above 3000 rpms for more than 60 seconds. Very prominent if you open the moonroof. Dealer says vehicle not designed to be held above 3000 rpms for more than a few seconds and that it's transmission fluid that makes the smell. Smells like bull to me. I'm worried that something is being or will be damaged. This is the second time I've asked them to check it.
Questions: Mark - is there a problem holding say, 3rd gear at 50 mph (between 3000 and 4000 rpms) for a few minutes? I certainly didn't see anything in the owner's manual and it doesn't make sense that this should be a problem.
Others - can anyone try this for comparison? Open the moonroof, put it in 2nd or 3rd and hold the rpms around 3500-4000 for 1 or 2 minutes and see if you get a burning smell - it's very strong. Thanks. Allen
I've been quiet for a couple of weeks, but feel the need to throw in my $.02 worth.This whole discussion of GLeen and his car preferences is sounding way too much like the I-6 vs. V-6 debates of a couple months ago. He seems to love his Bimmer, and no matter what you say, he'll still love it. The abundance of choice is what makes America great, and the option to miss out on the fun of driving an LS on a daily basis is part of that choice. Let's let him rest in peace........
If this has been discussed before, forgive me. In the 01/29/01 Autoweek mag, there is a brief writeup on the MB SLK32 AMG. (Supercharged V6 putting out 349hp...wow...a lot for that tiny little two seater). Anyways, it mentions AMG's Speedshift transmission provides 35 percent faster gearchanges than a standard auto tranny. Under heavy braking, SpeedShift automatically downshifts to the optimal gear. Conversely, by holding the gear lever to the left, it automatically determines the best gear for maximum acceleration. Sounds nice...
My wife has a 2000 model LS with approx. 39,000 miles, we have taken this car into the dealership three times for the following reasons: Stalling out, not starting at all, transmission not responding, all warning lights on the dash display lighting up.
My wife was stranded due to the not starting problem, she was 2 hours from home with no transportation avaliable from surrounding dealerships. I went and pick-up wife car and all and delivered the car to a dealership the next morning. The dealership worked on the car for 14 days with no luck finding a problem. They duplicated the problem one time with no success in repairng.
I did find if you take the key out of the ignition switch and let the seat and steering wheel move back, re-insert the key and in most cases the car will start.
I feel this is not a safe car for my wife to be traveling in away from home every week 200 plus miles from home.
Has anyone had this type of problem???
Is there any mechanics out there that can fix this car???
Have you tried using the other key to see if it does the same thing? Almost sounds like the little chip in the key might be defective or the ignition switch might be the problem. If you're a LLSOC member you may want to post your question on the Master Technician Forum on the LLSOC board. Mike Mosley is pretty good about answering difficult questions.
This sounds similar to the problem Rene LeBlanc described a year ago. Rene's No-start problem was diagnosed to be a problem with the PATS (Passive anti-theft system) and the fact that there wasn't a solid wire connection behind the ingnition switch in the dash. Rene reported that using some contact cleaner and firmly pressing the wire connections together repeatedly solved the no-start problem.
Perhaps Rene could recount his experience in this matter?
This is indirectly posted at Gleen. The article you posted was a good read, but only reinforces the LS's abilities. While it may seem as though the bimmer has more get up and go, the net effect is, they both have power to get you there. For me, it seems as though the LS has power in the upper RPM range, which a couple of charts I saw reinforce. In the low RPM range, the LS puts out 125HP, but when it gets to its optimal RPM, about 4-5K, it is putting out near max HP and max torque. Maybe your impression of the bimmer is that you like the torque in the initial start up. And a former post about the bosch control system may be the reason for this.
I am not trying to say yours or mine is better, just that they both get us there in roughly the same time and I love mine. To each their own. For your reference, the charts for the HP and torque on the LS are on llsoc.com under picture gallery, 3.9L - V8.
Just out of curiosity, what was your purpose for posting the article link? If educational, then thanks. If you are trying to use it to show the bimmer in a better light, then I don't think it read that way, but maybe your interpretation is different and please share if you want to?
The LS8 always makes more than 200 ft-lbs. of torque at any point in the operational speed range of the engine. While the BMW 525 makes its peak torque of 175 ft-lbs at 3500 rpm, the LS is "loafing" at 250 ft-lbs. Based on all comments made to date by GLeen, I can only surmize that his observations are more reflective of throttle sensitivity attributed to the Bosch control system.
GLeen, if you like the appearance of the BMW 5 series better than an LS, by all means get it. The BMW is a well made performance sedan, and if it suits you, I'm sure you'll be happier (the Euro Delivery could be a fun experience as well). However, to pass on the LS8 for its "less torquey" feel doesn't add up. Perhaps your less than favorable opinion of the LS had more to do with the dealership experience than you've expressed, and if so you should be able to find another dealer. I've had my LS8 for 18 months, and I've had an extremely positive experience thus far. If I had to do it all over again, I'd make the same choice.
As hkurte said in post 2863, the 2002 LS product info sheet has been sent to dealers. Here's a summary of features & changes for the '02 LS:
Powertrains remain essentially the same as '01. There is still a 3.0 V6 auto & manual and a 3.9 V8 auto; all are still 5-speeds. Rear gear ratios are unchanged, as are horsepower ratings. Torque for the V6 is unchanged; the V8 is shown as having 261 lbs.ft. of torque @ 4300 RPM, rather than the 267 of prior model years.
As hkurte noted, the full-boat Audiophile sound system will be included in the Sport package for '02. It will have the in-dash CD changer (no cassette) and is the only sound system available in the Sport. Last year's Alpine Sport system is gone.
The only new option of significance is the Vehicle Communication System that includes a digital/analog Motorola Timeport phone, a manual and automatic "SOS" feature, route guidance and points-of-interest assistance, and voice-activated information services (news, weather, sports, stocks, etc.)
Note that Ford recently announced that the Wingcast system launch has been delayed until the 2003 model year; I do NOT know if the VCS described above is the same as Wingcast; the "Wingcast" label is not mentioned in the info sheet.
There is NO mention of a navigation system. Although GPS capability must be included in order for the SOS feature to work, I believe that the "route guidance" feature means phoning the customer center via a single-touch button and getting route info from a person.
The Premium Package is still available, with the same content and colors as '01. Sport is the same as '01 except for the sound system.
Interior colors are the same as '01.
Regarding exterior colors: Aspen Green Metallic will replace Medium Charcoal Green Metallic at the beginning of the model year. Later in the year, Silver Birch Metallic will replace Silver Frost Metallic, and Charcoal Grey Metallic will replace Midnight Grey Metallic.
The non-Sport will have new 7-spoke wheels (still 16") in brushed satin aluminum; polished aluminum is optional.
AdvanceTrac, heated seats, chrome Sport wheels, and the moonroof are still on the option list as is the Audiophile system on non-Sport models. The standard sound system in non-Sport is the 80-watt, 4-speaker system with the in-dash CD changer. If you want a cassette in the non-Sport, it appears that you have to get the Audiophile system with the glovebox-mounted CD changer.
I haven't seen any official photographs, but there is NO mention of any styling changes, so I assume there are none.
Later in the year, an LSE appearance package will be available as an add-on to the Sport, but this appears to be a cosmetic-only package; no power increase. (Wheels, exhaust tips, spoiler, grille, lower trim, etc.; black or silver exterior, graphite or charcoal interior.)
Gas mileage for the V8 will be rated at 17 city and 23 highway; for the V6, both manual and auto are 18 city and 25 highway.
I have no information on pricing.
It would seem to me that if you're in the market for an LS and plan to keep it for several years, you should probably give strong consideration to getting an '01 model from dealer stock due to the discounts and incentives that are currently available. By the same token, if you're planning a 2-year lease, an '01 might also make sense due to incentives. There should be some good deals out there on '01 models.
I believe that '01 production ends at the end of June, and '02 production begins on July 16. I ordered my '01 exactly one year ago, so dealers are probably accepting '02 orders now. (Note: The '02 Thunderbird is already in production at the Wixom plant. I think.)
Oh, and don't quote me on any of this stuff. It's basically the same sort of summary I posted this time last year, and I didn't get in trouble then...
I made another Austin-Dallas-Austin run this weekend. On the trip up (by myself, minimal luggage), I had a steady 15-20 MPH tailwind. I was on an Interstate running 78 as often as I could; when I arrived in Dallas, the trip computer registered 26.4 MPG. This is by far the best I've seen.
After a day of running around Dallas, the tripmeter was down to 23.4, but when I filled up and did the actual calculation, it was 22.70. On the trip home (still by myself) and the 15-20 MPH wind coming straight at me, the computer registered 22.1; when I got home I filled up and calculated 22.15.
This is in an '01 V8 Sport that now has 10,300 miles. I always use Premium (93 octane) fuel and run the tires at 31-32 PSI. I use the cruise control as much as possible on these trips and try to avoid jamming the loud pedal to the floor. Overall mileage seems to still be improving slightly, but I'm REALLY jealous of you guys that are getting 24-25 on a regular basis!
Total calculated mileage from day 1 now stands at 17.87 MPG; much of my driving is in-town freeways and short trips. Not too bad, I guess...
I have an 01 LS Sport V8. I now have a grand total of 600 miles on the car. I bought it 3 weeks ago. My gas mileage is averaging 18.6 mph. (some freeway and some surface streets). I'm hoping it will improve. I'm running 92 octane.
I learned AFTER I bought my new LS that the owners manual says that you can't use chains with the 17" wheels. SURELY there is some way to chain up. Does anyone have any suggestions? My inquiries to Lincoln have resulted in advice that I buy a set of 16" steel wheels for winter use which I consider ridiculous. Would appreciate any thoughts. boatr2@worldnet.att.net.
I would suggest that you buy 16" wheels for winter use. Seriously, if they say you can't use chains it must have something to do with clearance. Obviously you can chain up. The question is what part of the car would you be banging up with the chains and is that part or are those parts needed for the safe operation of the car. I would rather not worry about that.
I think it is interesting to see the feelings people have when someone else takes in the same information and makes a different choice. It is natural for people to group together and reinforce each other's decisions and to feel disappointment when someone takes another path.
Gleen's perception of the BMW quality and feeling of acceleration was different from those of us who bought LSs.
We think the quality of the LS is very close to that of the BMW and with its advantage of more passenger and trunk space, equivalent handling, and important price advantage, it is a better choice.
Gleen felt the BMW torque was stronger and more immediate, even if the 0-60 times don't show it. It might have to do with the accelerator linkage design. He thinks the BMW leather quality is better. I really don't know. Even though we quite a few complaints from LS owners that the interior storage is inadequate and even the trunk size is marginal, Gleen didn't think the much smaller BMW trunk was an important difference.
If I saw the BMW through his eyes, and if I didn't think the few thousand bucks more I had to pay was very important, I'd probably buy a BMW too. I think the important things we can learn from Gleen are what Lincoln could have done differently to have erased those perceived BMW advantages.
BTW, I am also a BMW fan. I have one too. It just happens to have only two wheels, but I can tell you that BMWs are extremely well designed and thought out machines. BMW doesn't rest on its laurels, but with each model update they try to captialize on the previous model's strengths and reduce its weaknesses. They never leave "well enough" alone. They just keep getting better and better, and they are good in such subtle ways that you really need to own one for quite a while to discover the many subtle ways in which it is an excellent machine.
I suspect Gleen is seeing many little things about the BMW that go beyond his explanation of leather and torque that add up to make the total package worth its price and space disadvantages.
If Lincoln could get a handle on these things, Gleen may buy one in a few years. I hope Lincoln will also not rest on their laurels. They need to keep refining, keep replacing weak points with strengths, keep improving quality. If they begin taking short cuts, they'll NEVER catch BMW's reputation.
Don't even think about gas mileage until your car has 3-4k or so on it. 18+ is very good for a new engine. You must have a light foot. Your patience during break-in will be rewarded.
On p. 52 of the July '01 issue of Motor Trend, in their review of the Pontiac Vibe, the author notes "warning for those who live in mountain communities: Chains will not fit over the 17-inchers". Guessing he's bummed as the Vibe GT which gets the 180 hp motor and 6-speed manual comes standard with the Z-rated 17-inchers.
Would you care to outline your thoughts on what makes the BMW 5 series a "fine tuned machine while the LS is not", per your assertion in another discussion on Edmunds? Thus far, I have not found your comments to be insightful enough to be useful, nor have you bothered to try to pursuade those of us that compared them and selected the LS. Based on your somewhat short answers, I get the feeling you're merely trying to incite a fruitless argument rather than engage in conversation with useful and mutual exchange of ideas and information.
What makes the BMW worth the price differential over the LS?
Why does Gleen need to persuade anyone why he made his selection. Buying decisions rarely are based on raw fact alone. BMW has built a brand image based on decades of engineering and marketing that the LS does not yet have. Could many Taurus owners say that you may have overbought?
I would read Brian's posts above and on the 5 series board. In this market, selling value or price as the major factor will not work - BMW has proven that.
I didn't ask GLeen to outline his reasons for selecting the BMW, afterall, its his money. My question, based on his rather inflammatory assertion that the LS is not "a fine tuned machine", has more to do with his views on what makes it so? Thus far, there has been an acute lack of substance in his statements.
Finding what one describes as a "finely tuned machine" is an infinite search. After owning four BMW's over the last 15 years, I have had to attempt to justify to my wife what it is that makes these cars different and worth the premium each time. She still doesn't get it.
I guess it is somewhat like what what Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart once said about pornography..."I don't know how to define it, but I know it when I see it".
On most cars, 17 inches and above (used to be 15 inches and above, back in the old early GTI days) is a performance oriented diameter. In that area, you end up with high-performance rubber compounds, and a wider contact patch for optimum adhesion on dry roads. Trade-off is not the greatest snowy weather traction. For optimium traction on snow, you need a different compound of rubber, and a smaller contact patch for your tire. In order to get the best of both worlds above, you need to consider two sets of rims. Its all about compromise. Check out www.tirerack.com, or www.discounttiredirect.com. They have writeups that explain it all in detail, and offer complete snowtire/wheel packages for just about every vehicle.
Come on guys, stop trying to make Gleen justify his opinions. Don't try to objectify a subjective decision. If it was all objective then you could buy every vehicle from the spec sheet alone.
What we should be doing is making sure a prospective buyer has the correct facts on the LS and give them our subjective opinions for comparison. Dispel any misinformation that the buyer may have from ill-informed salespeople. But you can't argue with his opinions.
It's his money, his decision. He has to live with it, not you. Don't let it bother you.
I do find it amusing to hear Giowa on the other side of the argument, though. Now you know how we've felt these last few months.
I guess its just me, but I have a hard time justifying spending an additional $8K for something I can't define/describe. This is particularly true when also taking into account the BMW 5 series has: 1. Cheaper, less refined front suspension components (Macpherson struts vs. double wishbone) 2. Smaller, lower powered engine (525/530 - not the 540), without a commensurate improvement in gas mileage 3. Smaller passenger cabin and trunk
Further, the LS was tested to be superior to BMW in terms of overall braking performance and its resistance to fade. And last, the BMW will more than likely cost you more for insurance and routine maintenance.
Don't take this wrong, but have you ever driven a BMW? Most automotive pundits consider the E39 5er to be the finest sedan in the world. Based on my seat time in various permutations I would agree. That's not to say that the LS is a bad car; in fact, my experience with a relative's LS shows that it is an exceedingly good first effort for Lincoln. However, I see trouble on the horizon. I hope that Lincoln doesn't follow the pattern of benign neglect it took with the Merkur brand. Both the XR4 and the Scorpio were introduced to good reviews and encouraging sales figures. However, once sales dropped off, development ceased and the two fine cars were allowed to wither on the vine. I owned and enjoyed driving a Scorpio and had an excellent service experience with a local LM dealer but I decided to sell it once it was orphaned- before resale completely tanked. I hope Lincoln is looking at ways to refine and improve the LS beyond new color combinations. I also think it is hard to appeal to the AARP customer and the LS customer in the same showroom. Most(but not all) L-M salesman I've met have been sadly ignorant about the LS, much preferring to push a TC or Continental to the white belt set. Can't say I blame them; it's usually a much more profitable and easier sale. I would like nothing better than to see the LS evolve into a truly world class sport sedan. Competition keeps all the manufacturers on their toes. I hope Lincoln realizes that they cannot rst on their laurels at this point. Standing still in the luxury sport market segment only gets you run over.
Your points are well taken, and I too have concerns about Lincoln's long term commitment to the LS. However, based on the Lincoln/Ford personnel input to this discussion topic, and my experience at the LS Mania event that took place in Irvine, I take them at their word that the LS will not die on the vine, but will continue to improve. I own my LS outright, and it has been completely trouble free. If it remains so, I hope to own it for another 5 years. When it comes time to replace it, I will weigh my options at that time, although I will be probably inclined to remain loyal.
As for experience behind the wheel of the BMW 5 series . . . yes, I drove a 528 two years ago when I needed to replace my 1990 300ZX. I needed a backseat to accommodate a child carrier, and/or 2 full size adults. The 5 series just doesn't have the room I needed, nor did the handling proove itself superior to the LS. The 528 also didn't have the performance edge over the LS8. I was actively considering the Audi A6 2.7T w/Quattro when making my final decision. I'd take the A6 over the 5 series hands down . . . for virtually the same price, the A6 provides LOTS more power, AWD, and a bigger/nicer interior.
1. Comments about long-term commitment and the unfortunate history of the Merkur XR4ti and Scorpio are right on. Notice how it is reportedly taking Lexus only 1 model year to add the manual tranny to the IS300? They screwed up big time introducing it with only an automatic and they aren't going to perpetuate the mistake into the second MY. Lincoln should've done same with LS8 Sport manual.
(My cousin had an XR4ti for about 4 years in late '80s. He bought it new. Used to love to ride and drive it. Handled great, had sufficient room for 4, and decent luggage space. He lived in middle of rural Iowa, nowheresville, and we could find some nice empty blacktopped county roads to put her thru her paces. Merkur screwed XR4ti up by offering the max HP engine only in the manual and a severely de-tuned motor in the automatic. Should've used same motor in both.)
2. My "beef" with gleen involves posters who make one set of positive assertions (e.g., the LS lacks "pickup") and then another set that essentially is self-refuting (somehow the slower 525iA has "pickup"). Are we quibbling over the definition of "pickup"? If so, his definition seems to allow for a car like a Geo Metro to have "pickup" regardless of how slowly it might accelerate in test runs. Same might be made in regard to saying LS is "not a fine tuned machine", without elaboration, but then complimenting it on its handling (or seeing all the press reports complimenting it on its balance and handling).
Did gleen ever describe the test drive? Fearful he took the dealer's "dog & pony" drive, while ridig with the salesperson. If you're gonna test drive, do it right. Boot the salesperson out and go over a wide variety of surfaces, in differing levels of congestion, at different speeds, etc. If gleen did that for both cars and believes the 525iA is superior, then I got no "beef" on the test drive angle. Most of his comments after the test drive centered on things one could readily glean from looking at the car in the showroom (e.g., trunk space, interior room, perceived level of materiel quality).
I must really travel light; my wife and I used our ti hatchbacks to transport our only son until he was six. The sole reason we traded up to a 5er was due to the fact we now frequently need to transport our elderly parents. As for price/value, we bough a CPO car so that issue is moot for us. The more member LLSOC can recruit the better; manufacturers will listen to a large segment of their customer base. As an example, a letter-writing campaign by BMW CCA members convinced BMW NA to offer the E36 M3. If LLSOC continues to grow they could exert similar influence. FWIW, I once had dinner with Vic Doolan when he was CEO of BMW NA. He's a real car guy and he knows his stuff. Ford needs a thousand more like him.
Don't know if anyone noticed in our rush to defend our beloved LS, but GLeen currently drives a 528 and likes the fact that the 525 feels exactly like his current car. I think that a comfort level that is already established with a certain brand pre-disposes you to favor that brand, for any number of valid reasons. I'm a Ford guy and I feel most comfortable in a Ford product. Our Suburban still feels like a strange environment to me after 4 years.
I think the fact that there are some current BMW owners who at least have been open-minded enough to test drive a LS, even if they don't buy one, should speak volumes about how close our LS is to the BMW and should be something that Lincoln needs to build upon.
I test drove a M3 and thought it was a magnificent car, worth all the accolades that were given it. I would have test driven a M5 but it was so far out of my price range that I decided not to put drool marks on the car. Kinda like trying to date a Hooters girl when all your looks can handle is Broomhilda
That said, there isn't a day that goes by when I wish I had something other than my LS. This car has so much competence and has the potential to get to be the standard bearer for this class that I can't help but smile every time I drive it.
Comments
GLeen: What's the price tag on a 530 with Euro delivery? The site didn't say. Is there a monetary reason for taking Euro delivery?
For those of you interested in wheel upgrades, the wheels mentioned above can be had for about $300 each, and shave about 5.4 lbs off the weight of the stock 17 x 7.5 inch Super Silver alloys (those weigh in at 22.6 lbs each -- I weighed them myself). I had these wheels fit checked on my LS, and they clear the brake calipers just fine. The offset is close to stock at 52 mm, so I'd bet they'll improve the handling even more (without spoiling the ride). My "toy" budget is a little tight for the moment, so I'll be waiting on this mod for awhile (that goes for the Borla system as well), but some day soon . . .
-> Throttle control for speed and RPM limiting (no more stuttering rev limiters)
-> Driveability can be improved because the powertrain control module has control over the throttle blade(s). Do a quick WOT and the throttle can open quick enough to give good response, but not too quick as to cause driveline shock. Heck, I think Lexus' "snow mode" (not bosch) slows down throttle response and limits opening to make the car more driveable on bad roads.
-> Most improtantly - you (calibrator) can tune the throttle to open however you want it to regardless of the pedal position. My take on why the 525 and 530 *feel* like they have more torque than the LS8 is this:
a. Lighter car
b. A light "tip in" of the accelerator pedal opens the throttle (for example only) 50%. This way, you get the feeling of a lot of power at small pedal inputs. Sounds like something you could never fall for, but you will! You especially notice how powerful the car seems around town without even trying.
Also, we've been a bit rude to Gerard (Giowa, he didn't mention what route he test drove on, but he did write that he drove a V8 sport - you can seem aggressive to someone that doesn't know you;)
Personally, I think it's great that a BMW owner stopped and considered the Lincoln LS before moving into his next BMW lease.
To me, that speaks volumes. The BMW owners I know are die-hards, just like most of the people that contribute to this list. Whether it is for the image of owning the marque or the pure satisfaction of how the car operates, BMW owners are very loyal customers.
So, for online bragging, numbers are fine. But for everyday driving, go for feel and perception, in my book. Thats what really counts...
If this turns out to be true it could mean some good things for us in the form of a) more horsepower, b) manual V-8.
Brian
As you know, my original front Sport pads on my V6 Sport LS worn out at around 33,500 miles. Replaced them with the O.E. pads from the dealer, but I specified the Non-Sport compounds, as it was reported on this board that the non-sports dust much less.
Well, its a bit preliminary, but my informal studies are showing that the non-sport pads are SIGNIFICANTLY less dusty than the sports, with no noticeable performance trade off whatsoever. (During regular street driving...I assume on the track, the non-sport pads will probably succumb to brake fade earlier). Washed the car over the weekend, and ensured front and wheels were totally clean. Now have 89 miles on the car since the wash..combo city and highway...and brake dust is almost equal on the back rims as on the fronts! (For my fellow sport package owners, you know this is kind of amazing). Ran my finger across several portions of drivers side front and back, and again, only minimal light grey dust appears to be on the rims. With the Sport package, I could wipe my finger across the front rim after a 18 mile drive to work, and black dust would clearly be on my finger.
A worthwhile "upgrade" in my opinion.b
There has been a lot of speculation on the Mustange engines with a 5.0 L version of the current Cobra engine DOHC mentioned frequently and a version of the 3.0 L V6 as the base engine. Also mentioned have been versions of the 4.0L V6 (Explorer), 4.6L SOHC and most recently the 3.9L LS / T-Bird engine has been mentioned. It seems unlikely that Ford would not have a manual V8 Mustang so we can hope that the V8 manual will spill over to the T-Bird & LS
Regarding Euro Delivery, I just bought a 530i manual that way. I saved a little under $3 grand on MSRP, plus the dealer (CarMax) further discounted the price a similar amount. Net, I paid $38,900 for a car with domestic MSRP of $44,300. Also, I got 5.9% for 60 months thru BMW. A pretty good deal, I thought.
For full details such as MSRP and invoice on ED, go to eurobuyers.com. I'm not endorsing this guy or anything, but his figures were accurate for the 525 and 530.
In a nutshell, ED is probably worth considering only if you wanted to go to Europe anyway. That said, I thoroughly enjoyed the process and it was a blast driving my car on the autobahns!
I must confess that I did not consider the LS...
As the article points out, manuals comprise a mere 8.7 percent of today's American market, down from 12.4 percent in 1996. Article points out that the "new Lincoln LS" has one. Does a great service of pointing out fact manuals comprise a whopping 88 percent of European market. Quotes General Motor's spokesperson Kester as saying, "The European mind-set is A, you can't get good mileage with an automatic, and B, only weenies drive them." To add insult to injury, a NY Times story in same week discussed how much better the sex lives of the French are vis-a-vis Americans. Could it be because they drive sticks?
Steve-there's an ongoing discusssion over at LLSOC.com
Artie
I do not know why you fellow LS'ers are wasting your breathe/typing on convincing someone who had no intention of buying an LS. Look at all his reasons (poor ones or incorrect ones at that):
no torque
no acceleration
poor leather
poor quality
etc
and he will find more if your data shows he is wrong
Let this guy go spend his wad so he can impress his neighbors with his B M W
Speaking of dealers, it might be true that BMW service is superior (and they can afford to since they made an exorbitant amount of profit on the sale at your expense). In dealing with the dealer on purchasing I found the two I visited to be very arrogant in how dare you waste their time unless you pay MSRP and accept less than blue book trade in value on your trade and not tell you how much that might be until you sign the purchase agreement and then wait for your new vehicle and once it arrives then appraise your car and then tell you how much they are willing to give. Thus putting you into a position of accepting their low offer or having to deal with 2 cars.
To me it is better having one less LS on the road and one more BMW to match the many others like them who think they are driving an ultimate driving machine and trying to impress someone.
How about them complaining about the too-soft shifts? I realize this is a pre-production model and I wonder if those are the final settings. We'll have to ask Mark. I'm flabbergasted that there's no SST.
I think that FOMOCO and LLSOC have a lot to gain by making LS owners and shoppers aware of LLSOC, and this forum, via dealer sales personnel.
With respect to CWZ's remark about snob factor and how the BMW dealer treated him: Sure maybe you have a better chance of dealing with pure dicks at some places because they have it and you don't. Plus, it's just that attitude that they are playing up to when they sell their exclusive brand X. On the other hand, I do agree that they don't have to be that way even in a seller's market.
When my wife and I started seriously looking at the new C240 we phoned all 3 Mercedes dealers in Atlanta. Only 1 or 3 was able to get a salesman on the phone reasonably quick. All I was asking them was 1. did they have a demo and 2. could I schedule a test drive. A receptionist could have done that. Anyway, we visited the one that would speak with us and were greeted with a very friendly, no-pressure sales effort. At that time (late Oct) we were told that, due to demand, they were only taking orders and getting MSRP on delivery (only $500 deposit on order, 90-120 day delivery). We also decided that we would just sell our extra car rather than take a beating at any dealer (we tried 3 others with really bad trade offers). A couple of months went by and our Mercedes guy called out of the blue. They were selling two demos would we be interested? We made an appointment, they had the car my wife liked, and the rest is history.
The fact is, I knew there would be no negotiating on that car because there were 20 others ready to jump on it if I passed. In fact, I overheard two couples discussing it near by as we were closing the sale. So I can honestly say there is one salesman working at one German marque dealer who is not a dick.
I guess we simply dont understand your priorities. If you think the LSV8 Sport didnt "feel" as fast as your 528ia, maybe you simply needed to pull next to one at a stop light. Im fairly certain you'd get a great view of the purty tail lights of the LS. :-)
Again, if you didnt like the LS, thats cool. To each his own. But to say in one post it didnt have" enough pickup", then in another post say you would have bought it if it "came even close to your 528ia", when the LSV8 (and possibly the LSV6 Manual) will clearly outaccelerate the 528ia any day of the week, is contradictory and confusing.
Trunk sticks intermittently - of course it worked fine at the dealer. Lubed latch.
Brake vibration - diagnosed as rotor runout. Turned rotors. Works fine now.
Found and repaired nail in front tire - had no idea it was there. $13.
Asked for reflash. Was first told that it had already been done (that was the original 12/99 reflash). Does anyone else find it amazing that the service writers have no idea what you're talking about when you give them a TSB number? I said it's TSB 01-01-05 with these symptoms. Blank Stare. But they must have figured it out because the shifts are almost perfect now. 2-3 under WOT was horrible (2-part shift with .5 second delay in between) and I was convinced it was a mechanical problem that the reflash wouldn't fix. So far so good - with some learning it should be even better although I'm happy with it now. Reverse engages right away. Great job Mark!
Now for the one thing they wouldn't/couldn't fix. Since day one (11/99) I've had a burning smell anytime I've held 2nd or 3rd gear above 3000 rpms for more than 60 seconds. Very prominent if you open the moonroof. Dealer says vehicle not designed to be held above 3000 rpms for more than a few seconds and that it's transmission fluid that makes the smell. Smells like bull to me. I'm worried that something is being or will be damaged. This is the second time I've asked them to check it.
Questions:
Mark - is there a problem holding say, 3rd gear at 50 mph (between 3000 and 4000 rpms) for a few minutes? I certainly didn't see anything in the owner's manual and it doesn't make sense that this should be a problem.
Others - can anyone try this for comparison? Open the moonroof, put it in 2nd or 3rd and hold the rpms around 3500-4000 for 1 or 2 minutes and see if you get a burning smell - it's very strong. Thanks.
Allen
He seems to love his Bimmer, and no matter what you say, he'll still love it. The abundance of choice is what makes America great, and the option to miss out on the fun of driving an LS on a daily basis is part of that choice. Let's let him rest in peace........
three times for the following reasons:
Stalling out, not starting at all, transmission not responding, all warning lights on the dash display lighting up.
My wife was stranded due to the not starting problem, she was 2 hours from home with no transportation avaliable from surrounding dealerships. I went and pick-up wife car and all and delivered the car to a dealership the next morning. The dealership worked on the car for 14 days with no luck finding a problem. They duplicated the problem one time with no success in repairng.
I did find if you take the key out of the ignition switch and let the seat and steering wheel move back, re-insert the key and in most cases the car will start.
I feel this is not a safe car for my wife to be traveling in away from home every week 200 plus miles from home.
Has anyone had this type of problem???
Is there any mechanics out there that can fix this car???
Brian
Perhaps Rene could recount his experience in this matter?
Tom...
As for the shifts in the T-Bird all of you with a non-Sport V8 know just what those shifts feel like. The calibrations are identical.
Mark
I am not trying to say yours or mine is better, just that they both get us there in roughly the same time and I love mine. To each their own. For your reference, the charts for the HP and torque on the LS are on llsoc.com under picture gallery, 3.9L - V8.
Just out of curiosity, what was your purpose for posting the article link? If educational, then thanks. If you are trying to use it to show the bimmer in a better light, then I don't think it read that way, but maybe your interpretation is different and please share if you want to?
GLeen, if you like the appearance of the BMW 5 series better than an LS, by all means get it. The BMW is a well made performance sedan, and if it suits you, I'm sure you'll be happier (the Euro Delivery could be a fun experience as well). However, to pass on the LS8 for its "less torquey" feel doesn't add up. Perhaps your less than favorable opinion of the LS had more to do with the dealership experience than you've expressed, and if so you should be able to find another dealer. I've had my LS8 for 18 months, and I've had an extremely positive experience thus far. If I had to do it all over again, I'd make the same choice.
Powertrains remain essentially the same as '01. There is still a 3.0 V6 auto & manual and a 3.9 V8 auto; all are still 5-speeds. Rear gear ratios are unchanged, as are horsepower ratings. Torque for the V6 is unchanged; the V8 is shown as having 261 lbs.ft. of torque @ 4300 RPM, rather than the 267 of prior model years.
As hkurte noted, the full-boat Audiophile sound system will be included in the Sport package for '02. It will have the in-dash CD changer (no cassette) and is the only sound system available in the Sport. Last year's Alpine Sport system is gone.
The only new option of significance is the Vehicle Communication System that includes a digital/analog Motorola Timeport phone, a manual and automatic "SOS" feature, route guidance and points-of-interest assistance, and voice-activated information services (news, weather, sports, stocks, etc.)
Note that Ford recently announced that the Wingcast system launch has been delayed until the 2003 model year; I do NOT know if the VCS described above is the same as Wingcast; the "Wingcast" label is not mentioned in the info sheet.
(Here's a link to an Auto News article about the Wingcast delay: http://www.autonews.com/html/main/stories/ford516.htm )
There is NO mention of a navigation system. Although GPS capability must be included in order for the SOS feature to work, I believe that the "route guidance" feature means phoning the customer center via a single-touch button and getting route info from a person.
The Premium Package is still available, with the same content and colors as '01. Sport is the same as '01 except for the sound system.
Interior colors are the same as '01.
Regarding exterior colors: Aspen Green Metallic will replace Medium Charcoal Green Metallic at the beginning of the model year. Later in the year, Silver Birch Metallic will replace Silver Frost Metallic, and Charcoal Grey Metallic will replace Midnight Grey Metallic.
The non-Sport will have new 7-spoke wheels (still 16") in brushed satin aluminum; polished aluminum is optional.
AdvanceTrac, heated seats, chrome Sport wheels, and the moonroof are still on the option list as is the Audiophile system on non-Sport models. The standard sound system in non-Sport is the 80-watt, 4-speaker system with the in-dash CD changer. If you want a cassette in the non-Sport, it appears that you have to get the Audiophile system with the glovebox-mounted CD changer.
I haven't seen any official photographs, but there is NO mention of any styling changes, so I assume there are none.
Later in the year, an LSE appearance package will be available as an add-on to the Sport, but this appears to be a cosmetic-only package; no power increase. (Wheels, exhaust tips, spoiler, grille, lower trim, etc.; black or silver exterior, graphite or charcoal interior.)
Gas mileage for the V8 will be rated at 17 city and 23 highway; for the V6, both manual and auto are 18 city and 25 highway.
I have no information on pricing.
It would seem to me that if you're in the market for an LS and plan to keep it for several years, you should probably give strong consideration to getting an '01 model from dealer stock due to the discounts and incentives that are currently available. By the same token, if you're planning a 2-year lease, an '01 might also make sense due to incentives. There should be some good deals out there on '01 models.
I believe that '01 production ends at the end of June, and '02 production begins on July 16. I ordered my '01 exactly one year ago, so dealers are probably accepting '02 orders now. (Note: The '02 Thunderbird is already in production at the Wixom plant. I think.)
Oh, and don't quote me on any of this stuff.
After a day of running around Dallas, the tripmeter was down to 23.4, but when I filled up and did the actual calculation, it was 22.70. On the trip home (still by myself) and the 15-20 MPH wind coming straight at me, the computer registered 22.1; when I got home I filled up and calculated 22.15.
This is in an '01 V8 Sport that now has 10,300 miles. I always use Premium (93 octane) fuel and run the tires at 31-32 PSI. I use the cruise control as much as possible on these trips and try to avoid jamming the loud pedal to the floor. Overall mileage seems to still be improving slightly, but I'm REALLY jealous of you guys that are getting 24-25 on a regular basis!
Total calculated mileage from day 1 now stands at 17.87 MPG; much of my driving is in-town freeways and short trips. Not too bad, I guess...
Gleen's perception of the BMW quality and feeling of acceleration was different from those of us who bought LSs.
We think the quality of the LS is very close to that of the BMW and with its advantage of more passenger and trunk space, equivalent handling, and important price advantage, it is a better choice.
Gleen felt the BMW torque was stronger and more immediate, even if the 0-60 times don't show it. It might have to do with the accelerator linkage design. He thinks the BMW leather quality is better. I really don't know. Even though we quite a few complaints from LS owners that the interior storage is inadequate and even the trunk size is marginal, Gleen didn't think the much smaller BMW trunk was an important difference.
If I saw the BMW through his eyes, and if I didn't think the few thousand bucks more I had to pay was very important, I'd probably buy a BMW too. I think the important things we can learn from Gleen are what Lincoln could have done differently to have erased those perceived BMW advantages.
BTW, I am also a BMW fan. I have one too. It just happens to have only two wheels, but I can tell you that BMWs are extremely well designed and thought out machines. BMW doesn't rest on its laurels, but with each model update they try to captialize on the previous model's strengths and reduce its weaknesses. They never leave "well enough" alone. They just keep getting better and better, and they are good in such subtle ways that you really need to own one for quite a while to discover the many subtle ways in which it is an excellent machine.
I suspect Gleen is seeing many little things about the BMW that go beyond his explanation of leather and torque that add up to make the total package worth its price and space disadvantages.
If Lincoln could get a handle on these things, Gleen may buy one in a few years. I hope Lincoln will also not rest on their laurels. They need to keep refining, keep replacing weak points with strengths, keep improving quality. If they begin taking short cuts, they'll NEVER catch BMW's reputation.
Would you care to outline your thoughts on what makes the BMW 5 series a "fine tuned machine while the LS is not", per your assertion in another discussion on Edmunds? Thus far, I have not found your comments to be insightful enough to be useful, nor have you bothered to try to pursuade those of us that compared them and selected the LS. Based on your somewhat short answers, I get the feeling you're merely trying to incite a fruitless argument rather than engage in conversation with useful and mutual exchange of ideas and information.
What makes the BMW worth the price differential over the LS?
I would read Brian's posts above and on the 5 series board. In this market, selling value or price as the major factor will not work - BMW has proven that.
I guess it is somewhat like what what Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart once said about pornography..."I don't know how to define it, but I know it when I see it".
What we should be doing is making sure a prospective buyer has the correct facts on the LS and give them our subjective opinions for comparison. Dispel any misinformation that the buyer may have from ill-informed salespeople. But you can't argue with his opinions.
It's his money, his decision. He has to live with it, not you. Don't let it bother you.
I do find it amusing to hear Giowa on the other side of the argument, though. Now you know how we've felt these last few months.
1. Cheaper, less refined front suspension components (Macpherson struts vs. double wishbone)
2. Smaller, lower powered engine (525/530 - not the 540), without a commensurate improvement in gas mileage
3. Smaller passenger cabin and trunk
Further, the LS was tested to be superior to BMW in terms of overall braking performance and its resistance to fade. And last, the BMW will more than likely cost you more for insurance and routine maintenance.
Sounds like a bargain to me!?
As for experience behind the wheel of the BMW 5 series . . . yes, I drove a 528 two years ago when I needed to replace my 1990 300ZX. I needed a backseat to accommodate a child carrier, and/or 2 full size adults. The 5 series just doesn't have the room I needed, nor did the handling proove itself superior to the LS. The 528 also didn't have the performance edge over the LS8. I was actively considering the Audi A6 2.7T w/Quattro when making my final decision. I'd take the A6 over the 5 series hands down . . . for virtually the same price, the A6 provides LOTS more power, AWD, and a bigger/nicer interior.
(My cousin had an XR4ti for about 4 years in late '80s. He bought it new. Used to love to ride and drive it. Handled great, had sufficient room for 4, and decent luggage space. He lived in middle of rural Iowa, nowheresville, and we could find some nice empty blacktopped county roads to put her thru her paces. Merkur screwed XR4ti up by offering the max HP engine only in the manual and a severely de-tuned motor in the automatic. Should've used same motor in both.)
2. My "beef" with gleen involves posters who make one set of positive assertions (e.g., the LS lacks "pickup") and then another set that essentially is self-refuting (somehow the slower 525iA has "pickup"). Are we quibbling over the definition of "pickup"? If so, his definition seems to allow for a car like a Geo Metro to have "pickup" regardless of how slowly it might accelerate in test runs. Same might be made in regard to saying LS is "not a fine tuned machine", without elaboration, but then complimenting it on its handling (or seeing all the press reports complimenting it on its balance and handling).
Did gleen ever describe the test drive? Fearful he took the dealer's "dog & pony" drive, while ridig with the salesperson. If you're gonna test drive, do it right. Boot the salesperson out and go over a wide variety of surfaces, in differing levels of congestion, at different speeds, etc. If gleen did that for both cars and believes the 525iA is superior, then I got no "beef" on the test drive angle. Most of his comments after the test drive centered on things one could readily glean from looking at the car in the showroom (e.g., trunk space, interior room, perceived level of materiel quality).
I think the fact that there are some current BMW owners who at least have been open-minded enough to test drive a LS, even if they don't buy one, should speak volumes about how close our LS is to the BMW and should be something that Lincoln needs to build upon.
I test drove a M3 and thought it was a magnificent car, worth all the accolades that were given it. I would have test driven a M5 but it was so far out of my price range that I decided not to put drool marks on the car. Kinda like trying to date a Hooters girl when all your looks can handle is Broomhilda
That said, there isn't a day that goes by when I wish I had something other than my LS. This car has so much competence and has the potential to get to be the standard bearer for this class that I can't help but smile every time I drive it.
Brian