I don't like the travel well slogan, seems bland, but good luck to Lincoln. I'm sure that the marketing people have a plan. Hope it works.
Until recently, I wouldn't be caught dead in a Lincoln. Now, I think that they are great. What changed a very opinionated mind 180 degrees in a very short time? I actually had to drive one.
I used to have an image of grandma and grampa driving around in Lincoln's enclosed sofas. However, while investigating the LS, I found the Mark VIII group on the net, raving about their Marks. Power, handling, comfort. So I checked one out for myself. They were right.
I test drove a Mark for sale from a private party. The couple was the classic Lincoln target market - retired, well to do. I instantly noted that the interior was as good as a BMW, not cheezy like a GM product. Hmm...We drove around, and the owner explained the features. Air suspension, seat controls, JBL stereo. "It flat out goes on the highway", the elderly gentleman smiled. This grandpa had a cool car, I really liked driving it. As a car nut, I wondered how I missed such a great potential purchase.
Then I got outside, looked at it, and remembered. It was painted a gawd awefull champaign color, ready for the Lawrence Welk Retirement Villas. I could never park that monster in my driveway without issuing sunglasses to my neighbors. It was made and marketed to appeal to the retirement community - even down to color selection - but turned off anyone under 60. Hey Lincoln, we droids under 60 have jobs and make car payments. With the LS they listened.
I drove the LS, and liked driving it even better than the Mark. The LS looks and handles even better. I'm sure that there are thousands like me that would love the Lincoln driving experience, if they ever got their butts into one. That's who the marketing department should be trying to reach.
"Travel Well" would not have gotten me inside a Lincoln to change my mind. 99.9999% of car buyers are drivers, not passengers. Something as simple as "Have you driven a Lincoln lately" or "American Luxury - Lincoln Performance" might.
Lincoln Marketing: Get people like us out to test drive your cars! They're not just for grandpa anymore.
I have the Pioneer model GEX-FM903XM universal satellite digital tuner system and Pioneer antenna. Rather than replace my radio this unit uses the Alpine system in my LS. A very small control box is attached to the console just below the center air vents. The antenna is mounted on the truck lid. I cannot say enough about how much I like the system. 100 channels of music and news for $10 bucks a month! By the way, the Alpine with sub-woofer in my LS sounds great. I have no complaints although I have read that others are replacing the door-mounted speakers.
Travel well does not make it for the brand. Why not "Travel in Luxury" or "Travel in Style" instead. Come on Ann, you should be able to do better with that salary and education! My 5 year old daughter can come up with better slogans! Will the Lincoln Publication "American Luxury" become another "Travel" magazine? The LS cries for a better campaign.
I guess that by stating "Jerry Mac" you are referring to me, jerrym3, so I'll give you my assessment on their comments.
They hit the nail right on the head.
According to the review, the styling is "derived". If you look up derivative in the dictionary, the definition is "made up of or marked by derived elements". So, I guess they are saying that the styling is comprised of existing elements? This is their opinion, but I agree.
As for the plain interior comment, again, I agree. But, I'd rather have a plain interior than some of the interiors I saw at the AutoShow from competing vendors. (Everyone raves about the Altima, but the dash design, in my opinion, is poor. The Caddy CTS could also use some interior help.)
Both the LS and Jag S are scheduled for interior modifications for 2003. I've seen the Jag's. It's a vast improvement over the 2002 model.
Just to set the record straight, I'm a Ford product man and a car nut since I was 15. My last GMotors purchase was a new 65 Corvette which I purchased while I was employed by Ford. (Took some heat from my fellow UAW workers on that one.)
Except for a second car purchase for commuting (clean 62 Impala 2 dr), all my cars have been Fords or Mercs. I now have five Ford product cars.
I'd like nothing better than to see Ford build something that blows away the foreign competition. Looking at all the BMW's, Lexus', Audi's, etc and seeing how we let the foreign competition pass us by turns my stomach.
I remember driving Datsuns (Nissans) in 1962 from the Port Elizabeth seaport to a dealership in North Jersey and having all the electrical items (lights/wipers/etc) go dead in the rain at night on the NJ Turnpike at 60 mph. The cars were a piece of (censored).
It p****s me off that anything built or designed overseas automatically gets top billing over a US manufacturer's product.
But, as I think I heard in a Motorweek or MotorTrend TV show, out of approx 14 new car designs for 2002, only two were American vehicles. We've surrendered the car market to the competition to go after the big profit SUV/truck market. And now that we've had the car market taken away, the competition is after the truck market. What's next?
I applaud GM for hiring a car guy, and I applaud Ford for dumping Jack the knife, but I just hope it's not too late.
We used to have the top selling car in the USA, the Taurus, until Ford designers decided to turn the car into a bunch of ovals.
There's a product called "Wipers on! Lights on! " that was designed for just these situations. (NYS has a similar law). However, I don't know if I'd want to try to interface this product with the LS's electronics/autolamp system. At any rate, you can read about it & order from here:
I think funkcity may have been referring to Gerry McGovern.
On a slightly different note, anyone want to take bets that if Lincoln-Mercury goes back into the Ford fold, that Gerry goes bye-bye? And no one is going to shed any tears for his departure? Any takers on a pool to see how long before he leaves for "assorted reasons"?
P.S. For the record, I'm willing to give Lincoln the benefit of the doubt with the new ad campaign. But I will be the first to say I was wrong and skewer them if indeed the campaign makes Lincolns sound like pablum.
bought the LS because we thought the Ford Motor Company (that would be the outfit which has recently been represented by someone who's name is over the door) was looking to compete with BMW.
Not Audi.
Not Cadillac.
Not Volvo.
Certainly not Jaguar.
BMW.
If one wants to compete with the top of the pile, certain expectations result. Forgive me. Never mind why (who has time, with me at the keyboard), but the concept was that Lincoln was somehow willing to compete with the "Ultimate Driving Machine" people. Sign me up. That was then (January of '00). This is now. And, as has been pointed out, the "even-more-pinheaded-than-me" Consumer Reports folks bought into the LS.
I won't trouble everyone with that happiness = reality - expectations thing. It would be cruel. Or maybe not. The car is quite good. The interior needs only a few improvements to exceed all but Audi. The handling needs nothing. Given the car's weight, power needs help for those of us who prefer a manual (remember that we've all said for some time that the V8 with a manual would shut many of us up), but overall, it's a pretty decent car.
Forgive me for pointing any of this out. A number of people in the past couple of days have threatened "HR" (that would be Pat) reprisals. Spare us (especially me). Apparently we're not supposed to share our opinions.
Many years ago, in my aerospace company, a poster was put up that summarizes much of what we've seen since: "Our Direction is Toward Perfection."
Many of us who own the LS (especially the zealots on this board) wonder if the corporation shares that point of view. Brian says so.
I must have ordered a 2002 brochure as I got one in the mail. What a BEAUTIFUL cover. Nice, shiney valves, intake and exhaust. There must be enough valves for 10 LSes! This cover is perfect for our "American Luxury - Lincoln Performance" LSes. Unfortunatly, the valves aren't "Travelling Well" as they are out of the engine!
Mike LLSOC Charter Member and "Travelling (very) Well" in my "American Luxury-Lincoln Performance" LS
Fade from black: LS running through a twisting mountain road, engine revs as the soundtrack, camera looking at the front grill. Camera moves around driver's side of car stopping behind front wheel as it follows each turn in the road. Pan to driver's face wearing the LS grin. Switch to back view of LS as it accelerates away from camera on final turn, engine screaming. Fade to black. Tag Line: 143 miles per hour, .85g, 2xx horsepower. Next Line. LS Next Line. Travel Well Next Line. Lincoln Fade to black.
Outside a famous restaurant, the valet parkers and the owners of five BMW's (or Audi's) all the same color and model, are trying to determine which car belongs to which customer.
A smartly dressed (no suit) couple comes out of the restaurant, gives the keys to the valet parker and says "the Lincoln LS, please"
Next scene, the gleaming black LS pulls up (close up of the grille and Lincoln emblem), the valet parker gets out with a grin, the BMW owners stop arguing to look, and the smartly dressed couple get in (smiling) and drive away.
Last scene, the car drives out of sight (must be a two lane dirt rosd with a dust trail behind the car for effect)at a decent rate of speed, but not too fast. (A scene similar to the last scene in Hichcock's-The Birds.)
Closing caption- "American Luxury and Performance-Lincoln LS"
byebyels - no one is questioning anything Brian has said or done. We are, however, very apprehensive as to where Lincoln may be heading.
Well at least we now know why Reitzle was so upset about the LLSOC club visitors making so much noise. His meeting was probably about dumping Lincoln out of PAG and you low life Lincoln drivers had the audacity to breathe a little excitement into PAQ headquarters. No wonder he didn't come out to say hello.
Lincoln leaving PAG may be both good and bad. On the good side Lincoln returns to the undisputed top brand for Ford North America and is no longer is a feature crippled brand positioned at the bottom of the PAG ladder.
If you followed Reitzle and PAG is should have been pretty clear that he wants Jaguar to be the head to head competitor for BMW. Lincoln's attempt to compete with BMW became non important as why do you need 2 direct BMW competitors? For Reitzle's Euro background and focus Lincoln probably just became a pain in his [non-permissible content removed] that he never understood.
On the bad side, moving Lincoln back to Dearborn can just re-trench it in old American ideas about cars (read Town Car) with the view of the future as SUV's. The LS Euro-sedan anomaly could be left to die in favor of spending all the engineering $ on the next generation of Navigator cup holders or new tech. soft shocks and springs to keep the Town Car flopping all over the road for years to come. I'm still not sure that back home in Dearborn where American cars still dominate that they understand that in the Washington DC to Boston corridor and in California no one cares about Lincoln. Or how little any of the BMW, Audi, Lexus & Mercedes owners know or care about Lincoln. Lincoln is simply not on anyone's mind out here.
If Lincoln can get ahold of what American Luxury -Lincoln Performance means than moving Lincoln out of PAG will be a good move.
American Luxury - Lincoln Performance means keeping American plus sizing (i.e. LS is as big as a 7 Series but priced below the 5 Series, etc.), perfection in fit and finish, quality material, attractive design, great handling, responsive steering, smooth taught comfortable ride and gobs of torque pushed through a smooth fast responding drive train.
Do you think that Ford would move LM back to Dearborn or would they leave them out here in the land of no rain? I could see where there would be a benefit to having them in the Ford fold but staying out here to keep them, as slunar said, from getting retrenched in the old idealogy. But logistically it could get kind of hairy. Would they leave corporate out here but move back the designers? Or would they move corporate back and keep the designers here?
A friend told me about Edmunds and the various boards. I will be reviewing old posts to get some thoughts about purchasing or leasing a Lincoln LS versus a BMW or Audi. Have a nice day all
today, and parked directly opposite an Infiniti G35. Couldn't track down the owner/renter, but it looked pretty nice. Didn't take the time to look inside, but will, in due course.
There aren't but a few luxury or "near-luxury" vehicles that provide RWD and a manual. Even fewer cost less than $35K.
Hooray! Someone who wants to talk about cars. It's great to hear from someone who includes Lincolns with the German makes, instead of being fixated on imports. Drive, drive, drive, compare prices, including maintenance costs. Make sure the test drive includes hard braking; I don't think anybody has the anti-dive technology down as well as Lincoln, at least not without some electro-hydraulic trickery.
Personally, I'd love to have the LS's looks, size, power, handling, comfort, and price with the Audi interior and the BMW . . . hmm, doesn't seem to be anything I'm missing there.
Happy shopping, and please post back here and tell what you decided on, and why.
PS I hope LM stays in SoCal so we have a nice place for winter LLSOC events. Otherwise packv12 will have to show us how they autocross on Blizzaks on the Frozen Tundra.:)
I have been out of town for a week or so and have just caught up on the old posts. I live in Round Rock TX and purchased my LS form Johnson FLM in burnet and Marble Falls. While I have to drive a little to get to them, they are absolutely a pleasure to deal with. Everything is done right the first time no questions asked. To me it is worth the short drive. They are a Blue oval and Lincoln Premier dealer.
Michael Vande Voorde - drop me a line at LobsenzA@Rose-Grp.com and maybe we can get together sometime.
Welcome aboard, don't get too freaked out about the recent ramblings on this forum. I think a number of us are getting pretty wound up waiting to hear the all the details on the 2003 LS.
To me the LS is still a great choice. You get a BMW 740 sized sedan with the performance of a 530 for less than the price of a 330. Plus you can get it with smooth American V8 power without sellng your first born. Don't be fooled by BMW's higher residual %, the total depreciation in $$ not % will most likely be lower with an LS, especially with the current incentives. Overall I'd say that the LS is not as refined as the BMW's but you'll be paying a lot less.
I like the Audi exterior & interior styling so I can't knock them there plus the availibility of 4WD is nice. Where Audi falls apart for me is the standard models are FWD. If I got an Audi I would lease it for the warranty period as I have heard far too many Audi repair horror stories. I just heard last week that an aquaintance got nailed with a $10,000 transmission repair bill on his Audi. The new transmission was $9K + 1K labor. I haven't talked direct to the person so I don't know all the details but apparantly you can't get stateside rebuilts so you have to get a new or factory refurb from Germany.
The biggest downside to a LS seems to be some of the sleezy dealers still out there and some questionable service departments at some of the dealers.
All the fuss about "traveling well" reminds me of GM's introduction of the Chevy Nova in Mexico in the 70s. Big, expensive ad campaign. Billboards. Television. Then someone told them that no va means "won't go" in Spanish. Oops. Chuck
Okay trying to read this link in Altavista's translator is bringing tears to my eyes but it sounds like Wolfie is being recruited by GM. If anyone knows German and can translate this I'm sure it would be interesting reading.
Here's what the article translates into. I've got to admit I like the translation of Jacques Nasser to Jacques of wet. And is Nick Scheele the "Nod cross-eyed one"? Translation software still has a long way to go, but it is hilarious reading!
Brian
Reitzle on the jump
General of engine recruits the former BMW manager
The outlet would come a little early. Wolfgang Reitzle, which leads for three years from London the luxury marks of the American autocompany Ford, had said always, for this task needs he ten years. So for a long time it lasts, until an automark renewed and on the road brought all their models. Now the 53-jaehrige German already thinks about its parting from Fords. The competitor general of engine (GM) made an offer for it, is in the industry to be heard. Whether it goes to the competitor, is not safe. From the Ford daughter Prime Minister of automotives Group (PSG), whose boss Reitzle is, gives it no comment. Insider say, Reitzles decision is not yet pleases.
This change would be times again a spectacular jump in the career of the native new Ulmers. That had come as a young engineer to BMW and under the chairman of the board of many years Eberhard von Kuenheim a remarkable ascent made. With 38 years sat already in the executive committee. The autofool was considered as the technical brain of the white-blue, which ensured that BMW with fastidious technology and sporty image the competitor Mercedes temporarily ran off rank with the paragraph. Of course it was considered as a candidate on the BMW chief chair in Munich. But because of its inclination to show its ambition openly and because it also occasionally in multicolored lamellas was shown, could not struggle through itself from Kuenheim to make the talented technician to the company head. In the grind Reitzle left 1999 residents of Munich the enterprise and went for a multiple of his past Salaers to Fords.
The company head at that time Jacques of wet had bought to go with in the meantime the marks Volvo and country Rover and had created for Reitzle in London the Prime Minister of automotives Group (PAG), which bundles the elevated Ford marks. Of the Themse out of Germany bucked probably most well-known automanager, who is married with the Second Channel of German Television host Nina Ruge, the model pallet up of Aston Martin, Jaguar, Volvo, Land Rover, Mercury and Lincoln. But when wet end of past yearly was surprisingly fired, the life for Reitzle became substantially more difficult. And that, although the new company head Bill Ford von Reitzle holds so much that he offered even the line of the technical development for the entire company to him. But the envious people sharpened already the measurers. They strewed rumors that Reitzles star began to sink. Nod cross-eyed one, an old adversary of Reitzle, in the meantime to the second man under Bill Ford had ascended. Cross-eyed one was a jaguar boss, before Reitzle took over the PAG. One could temporarily win the impression, as if Reitzle had been impressed of cross-eyed achievements with the tradition mark only little.
The appointment Reitzles to the development boss of the Ford company would let the old rivalry revive again. Cross-eyed one is responsible with Fords for production and all factories. He could abblocken Reitzle at any time and accuse to him, its new developments were economically not to be manufactured technical and. This Sprengstoffpotenzial obviously recognized another striking sword of the automobile industry: Bob Lutz, 70, an old driving man of the industry with BMW -, Fords -, GM as well as Chrysler experience and an autofool such as Reitzle, is responsible despite its high age since at the end of of 2001 with general of engine for the autodevelopment. Lutz, a native Swiss, and Reitzle understand themselves in the best way. If Reitzle is in Detroit, he often arranges himself with Lutz to the Fachsimpelei when eating. And this cannot introduce itself in the day better one on its post as Reitzle.
Lincoln. Announced that it would be killing their "American Luxury" advertising theme line. It wasn't a real ad theme anyway, so we doubt anyone will even notice.
Lincoln. Then again, the replacement non-ad theme for Lincoln is equally stupid. Travel Well? Does anyone have a frickin' clue out there
Apparently the translation software assumes when you tell it is is German, then ALL words are German and it assumes non-properly spelled words are mis-spelled German words. So...
Nick Scheele becomes "nicken scheel" which translates to: nicken - nod (one's head); scheel - cross-eyed, squinting.
IMHO, I don't think any of us would have cared if Lincoln drop "American Luxury" and pick some new tag line. The problem is that Lincoln announced the change to the media. Media announcements are suppose to be catchy, "Travel Well" isn't. Given how NOT catchy "Travel Well" is, Lincoln should have released the commercials with the new tag line and then announced to the media that a new tag line exists. It's a safe bet that no one is waiting in anticipation of Lincoln commercials because of the tag line announcement.
I live in western New York. Although we experienced a really freak winter this year, with hardly any snow, the LS did quite well in last year's average snowfall. That is, with a set of snow tires on board.
Dont let the old rear wheel drive stereotype fool you. Those old 70's cars didnt have the 50/50 weight balance the LS has, nor did they have the electronic traction and stability controls offered by the LS.
Snow is no problem for the LS, and in some ways, superior to FWD in snow.
I have had the car through two winters in Boston commuting every day. The car peformed very well the first year when the tires were fairly new. We actually had quite a bit of snow that year. This last winter, however, the performance was very poor. I attribute this to the tires which had approx. 30k on them. The car spent a bit more time with the traction control on than I would have liked.
I will say this, I have driven many cars through many snow storms over the years. This car performs much more predictably than the front wheel drive stuff. When a car is inherently balanced, dynamics are in balance also, therefore the car behaves in a more predicable way (I read this as safer. just my opinion).
All this being said, I will be puchasing new tires soon. I have the sport with 17" wheels. I will most likely buy dedicated 16" snows if I can find some rims cheaply enough. I am going with the Nokian snows. They blow all away in my opinion.
Hope this helps. Its about time I can lend someone else a hand for once, given all the help this board have given me.
It's funny that the snow tire subject arose again, since I wanted to share that I finally got my snows removed last week just prior to a coast to coast flight from east to west. In removing the tires and their dedicated rims, "the grin" is back in full swing! No more "babying" the car through the off-ramps, etc.
I used 16-inch LS rims obtained over Ebay ($212.50 with shipping) and Firestone Winterfire 215-60-16 tires at only $75 each ready to roll. As stated in a recent reply, the car was very predictable and controllable. In fact, I would take most opportunities to get the car sideways over the winter when it was snowing, and my game was to try to keep it sideways as long as possible, just to hone my control skills (and to pretend that I was driving a 3400-lb., 750 HP car on a road course in the dry)... WIth a V6M 2000 LS, there is no traction control to speak of, so I cannot vouch for what it is like to drive an LS with any of the traction or dynamic controls that are otherwise available.
In need of 2 new Firehawks, I sure do wish that the tires were back in the double-digits for pricing. How short-sighted of me to not scarf some tires at $69/per.
Thanks for the input on the 16" rims. I have been freaquenting ebay lately. (will be getting the repair CD soon) I can get new rims from tirerack for ~$100 each. I have bid on a set on ebay, but I am not willing to pay more than $200 (on ebay) for the set, with shipping. At $199 it would be about $250 for the set to my house. A little too much to be worth my while. (Yes I would pay the $212.50 of mtnh's post.) That's ok, I have untill Nov to pick up something so I will keep my eyes open 'til then.
I have pretty much decided that the extra cost of at least $100 per tire for the Michelin Pilot Sport AS is just not worth it. I just don't have $400 to piss away on something that at this point is totally intangable, and it is not like I can test drive the tires. They seem to rate similarly to the Goodrich G-force Comp KDWS with the exception of the snow rating and no one can give me any real (as apposed to they're really nice) info as to what I am buying for the extra $100/tire. Does anyone have the Goodrich 245/45/17s. Are you happy with them? How do they compare with the stock Firehawks?
Scott, I looked at the BFGs and they appear to be a great tire for the money. Looks like you give up a little bit in the ride comfort and noise categories, but not a lot. Sounds like a great budget tire choice. Good customer reviews and ratings and good test track results.
I know, I know, it's the T-bird... But, I was just thinking that the Wixom plant cannot be running at an effecient level since they stopped production of the Continental. While I am seeing a lot more LS's recently, I would think Lincoln will need to boost throughput at Wixom and the simplest way seems to be making a Lincoln version of the T-bird. There have been show cars, but I have not heard of any plans to make one. That also may allow Ford to keep the T-bird price down.
Of course, with a realization that Lincoln and Mercury are tied together, a lower content LS could be made for Mercury, with the DEW98 lite platform for the Mustang also spreading the cost of the platform across more lines. Anyone for a Cougar version of the DEW98 lite ?
I have been looking at Rims for the LS and have seen a very limited selection. What are the Specs for the LS Rims, Offset, Bolt Pattern, etc.
I went to TireRack and only 7 of their rims fit the LS. I was looking at putting some BBS Rims on the LS but they said none of them would fit. I got a girl and she didn't know any of the Specifics for why the other rims did not fit the LS.
I feel like her(unknowledgeable). Can someone please edumacate me on the LS Rim specs. Thanks. Victor
I was told that it's a caliper clearence issue. I was talking with the guys at "Group A Autotrends". They import the ROH and Simmons wheels. I was originally interested in the ROH "Snyper" wheel, and they had the correct width and offset, but wouldn't clear the brake calipers. I wound up with a set of MIM "Venezias", from Discount Tire Direct. Good luck!
Check out LLSOC. There's been several discussions on bolt patterns, offsets, and wheels that fit. BBS has one called the RK026 wheel that is a Volvo wheel that I have on my car and fits quite well. Classic Design Concepts also has wheels that fit the LS and the LLSOC pricing make them very reasonable at around $115 per wheel
As Brian suggested, check LLSOC. We had a very active discussion on this subject quite some time ago (last year?) and exchanged alot of great information on wheel specs. The big things to keep in mind are offset, diameter (for tire fitment) and weight. Weight is an often overlooked wheel parameter in that it has a large impact on the ride characteristic of your car (it affects unsprung weight). Wheels lighter than stock wheels should improve overall ride quality while heavier ones should increase ride harshness.
Good luck in shopping this around, and please report back when you find something you like. Personally, I plan on getting a set like the ones Brian currently has on his car, as they are 18-inch and weigh significantly less than the stock 17-inch sport wheels.
By the way Brian, how are you liking the BBS RK wheel so far? How many miles have you put on them thus far?
The BBS wheels are very nice. I have about 2,000 miles on them. I like them a lot. They are definitely better quality than the Voxx MGRs that I had on the car before. Less vibration plus I do like the styling. I would recommend them without hesitation. Likewise the Bridgestone Potenza S03 tires. While I liked the Michelin Pilot Sports I really like the S03s. Better grip in the rain than the Pilots and less noise.
The only caveat with the BBS RK026 wheels and the reason BBS doesn't market it as fitting for the LS is that they believe in very tight tolerances for their wheels. The Volvo center hub is about 1 mm bigger in diameter so the wheel isn't hub-centric but lug-centric. If you use the cone-type lug nuts and put them on by hand you won't have a problem.
Just a clarification to Brian's post about the Potenza's being better in the wet than the Pilot Sports. Brian has the regular Pilot Sports which are Ultra High Performance summer tires, NOT the Pilot Sport A/S which as an Ultra High Performance All Season tire. The Pilot Sport A/S is GREAT in the wet stuff but gives up a little bit of dry grip in return. There are so many Pilots out there that it's really getting confusing. I wish they had chosen different names.
Good point. And to further clarify, the Pilot Sports that I had were fine in the wet. It seems that the S03s are newer so they benefit from later technology. Either tire works great in the wet. Main reason I switched was because the Pilots were $50 more per tire for basically the same specs. If they weren't that much more I would have probably gone with them again.
Comments
Until recently, I wouldn't be caught dead in a Lincoln. Now, I think that they are great. What changed a very opinionated mind 180 degrees in a very short time? I actually had to drive one.
I used to have an image of grandma and grampa driving around in Lincoln's enclosed sofas. However, while investigating the LS, I found the Mark VIII group on the net, raving about their Marks. Power, handling, comfort. So I checked one out for myself. They were right.
I test drove a Mark for sale from a private party. The couple was the classic Lincoln target market - retired, well to do. I instantly noted that the interior was as good as a BMW, not cheezy like a GM product. Hmm...We drove around, and the owner explained the features. Air suspension, seat controls, JBL stereo. "It flat out goes on the highway", the elderly gentleman smiled. This grandpa had a cool car, I really liked driving it. As a car nut, I wondered how I missed such a great potential purchase.
Then I got outside, looked at it, and remembered. It was painted a gawd awefull champaign color, ready for the Lawrence Welk Retirement Villas. I could never park that monster in my driveway without issuing sunglasses to my neighbors. It was made and marketed to appeal to the retirement community - even down to color selection - but turned off anyone under 60. Hey Lincoln, we droids under 60 have jobs and make car payments. With the LS they listened.
I drove the LS, and liked driving it even better than the Mark. The LS looks and handles even better. I'm sure that there are thousands like me that would love the Lincoln driving experience, if they ever got their butts into one. That's who the marketing department should be trying to reach.
"Travel Well" would not have gotten me inside a Lincoln to change my mind. 99.9999% of car buyers are drivers, not passengers.
Something as simple as "Have you driven a Lincoln lately" or "American Luxury - Lincoln Performance" might.
Lincoln Marketing: Get people like us out to test drive your cars! They're not just for grandpa anymore.
"Try it, you'll like it".
They hit the nail right on the head.
According to the review, the styling is "derived". If you look up derivative in the dictionary, the definition is "made up of or marked by derived elements". So, I guess they are saying that the styling is comprised of existing elements? This is their opinion, but I agree.
As for the plain interior comment, again, I agree. But, I'd rather have a plain interior than some of the interiors I saw at the AutoShow from competing vendors. (Everyone raves about the Altima, but the dash design, in my opinion, is poor. The Caddy CTS could also use some interior help.)
Both the LS and Jag S are scheduled for interior modifications for 2003. I've seen the Jag's. It's a vast improvement over the 2002 model.
Just to set the record straight, I'm a Ford product man and a car nut since I was 15. My last GMotors purchase was a new 65 Corvette which I purchased while I was employed by Ford. (Took some heat from my fellow UAW workers on that one.)
Except for a second car purchase for commuting (clean 62 Impala 2 dr), all my cars have been Fords or Mercs. I now have five Ford product cars.
I'd like nothing better than to see Ford build something that blows away the foreign competition. Looking at all the BMW's, Lexus', Audi's, etc and seeing how we let the foreign competition pass us by turns my stomach.
I remember driving Datsuns (Nissans) in 1962 from the Port Elizabeth seaport to a dealership in North Jersey and having all the electrical items (lights/wipers/etc) go dead in the rain at night on the NJ Turnpike at 60 mph. The cars were a piece of (censored).
It p****s me off that anything built or designed overseas automatically gets top billing over a US manufacturer's product.
But, as I think I heard in a Motorweek or MotorTrend TV show, out of approx 14 new car designs for 2002, only two were American vehicles. We've surrendered the car market to the competition to go after the big profit SUV/truck market. And now that we've had the car market taken away, the competition is after the truck market. What's next?
I applaud GM for hiring a car guy, and I applaud Ford for dumping Jack the knife, but I just hope it's not too late.
We used to have the top selling car in the USA, the Taurus, until Ford designers decided to turn the car into a bunch of ovals.
Sorry, had to vent.
http://www.securityworld.com/lighting/wiperson.html
On a slightly different note, anyone want to take bets that if Lincoln-Mercury goes back into the Ford fold, that Gerry goes bye-bye? And no one is going to shed any tears for his departure? Any takers on a pool to see how long before he leaves for "assorted reasons"?
P.S. For the record, I'm willing to give Lincoln the benefit of the doubt with the new ad campaign. But I will be the first to say I was wrong and skewer them if indeed the campaign makes Lincolns sound like pablum.
Brian
"I think funkcity may have been referring to Gerry McGovern.
Yes I was....with a G of course ;-)
And I STILL would like a Lincoln rep to shed some light on all this confusion!
The LS can rock.
We all know it but bottom line does Bill Ford?
Maybe a little writing campain to Mr. Bill is in order here? Before as some of us might feel, it's too late. :-(
Not Audi.
Not Cadillac.
Not Volvo.
Certainly not Jaguar.
BMW.
If one wants to compete with the top of the pile, certain expectations result. Forgive me. Never mind why (who has time, with me at the keyboard), but the concept was that Lincoln was somehow willing to compete with the "Ultimate Driving Machine" people. Sign me up. That was then (January of '00). This is now. And, as has been pointed out, the "even-more-pinheaded-than-me" Consumer Reports folks bought into the LS.
I won't trouble everyone with that happiness = reality - expectations thing. It would be cruel. Or maybe not. The car is quite good. The interior needs only a few improvements to exceed all but Audi. The handling needs nothing. Given the car's weight, power needs help for those of us who prefer a manual (remember that we've all said for some time that the V8 with a manual would shut many of us up), but overall, it's a pretty decent car.
Forgive me for pointing any of this out. A number of people in the past couple of days have threatened "HR" (that would be Pat) reprisals. Spare us (especially me). Apparently we're not supposed to share our opinions.
Many years ago, in my aerospace company, a poster was put up that summarizes much of what we've seen since: "Our Direction is Toward Perfection."
Many of us who own the LS (especially the zealots on this board) wonder if the corporation shares that point of view. Brian says so.
I hope so.
Mike
LLSOC Charter Member and "Travelling (very) Well" in my "American Luxury-Lincoln Performance" LS
LS running through a twisting mountain road, engine revs as the soundtrack, camera looking at the front grill.
Camera moves around driver's side of car stopping behind front wheel as it follows each turn in the road.
Pan to driver's face wearing the LS grin.
Switch to back view of LS as it accelerates away from camera on final turn, engine screaming.
Fade to black.
Tag Line: 143 miles per hour, .85g, 2xx horsepower.
Next Line. LS
Next Line. Travel Well
Next Line. Lincoln
Fade to black.
Outside a famous restaurant, the valet parkers and the owners of five BMW's (or Audi's) all the same color and model, are trying to determine which car belongs to which customer.
A smartly dressed (no suit) couple comes out of the restaurant, gives the keys to the valet parker and says "the Lincoln LS, please"
Next scene, the gleaming black LS pulls up (close up of the grille and Lincoln emblem), the valet parker gets out with a grin, the BMW owners stop arguing to look, and the smartly dressed couple get in (smiling) and drive away.
Last scene, the car drives out of sight (must be a two lane dirt rosd with a dust trail behind the car for effect)at a decent rate of speed, but not too fast. (A scene similar to the last scene in Hichcock's-The Birds.)
Closing caption- "American Luxury and Performance-Lincoln LS"
Please email me at: brian.gowing@llsoc.com. I have some information for you from Lincoln and your email address bounces back.
Thanks,
Brian Gowing
Well at least we now know why Reitzle was so upset about the LLSOC club visitors making so much noise. His meeting was probably about dumping Lincoln out of PAG and you low life Lincoln drivers had the audacity to breathe a little excitement into PAQ headquarters. No wonder he didn't come out to say hello.
Lincoln leaving PAG may be both good and bad. On the good side Lincoln returns to the undisputed top brand for Ford North America and is no longer is a feature crippled brand positioned at the bottom of the PAG ladder.
If you followed Reitzle and PAG is should have been pretty clear that he wants Jaguar to be the head to head competitor for BMW. Lincoln's attempt to compete with BMW became non important as why do you need 2 direct BMW competitors? For Reitzle's Euro background and focus Lincoln probably just became a pain in his [non-permissible content removed] that he never understood.
On the bad side, moving Lincoln back to Dearborn can just re-trench it in old American ideas about cars (read Town Car) with the view of the future as SUV's. The LS Euro-sedan anomaly could be left to die in favor of spending all the engineering $ on the next generation of Navigator cup holders or new tech. soft shocks and springs to keep the Town Car flopping all over the road for years to come. I'm still not sure that back home in Dearborn where American cars still dominate that they understand that in the Washington DC to Boston corridor and in California no one cares about Lincoln. Or how little any of the BMW, Audi, Lexus & Mercedes owners know or care about Lincoln. Lincoln is simply not on anyone's mind out here.
If Lincoln can get ahold of what American Luxury -Lincoln Performance means than moving Lincoln out of PAG will be a good move.
American Luxury - Lincoln Performance means keeping American plus sizing (i.e. LS is as big as a 7 Series but priced below the 5 Series, etc.), perfection in fit and finish, quality material, attractive design, great handling, responsive steering, smooth taught comfortable ride and gobs of torque pushed through a smooth fast responding drive train.
And by the way - you folks don't want to respond to a certain person unhappy with and trying to unload his LS - trust me.
Pat
Sedans Host
There aren't but a few luxury or "near-luxury" vehicles that provide RWD and a manual. Even fewer cost less than $35K.
This is all quite interesting.
Personally, I'd love to have the LS's looks, size, power, handling, comfort, and price with the Audi interior and the BMW . . . hmm, doesn't seem to be anything I'm missing there.
Happy shopping, and please post back here and tell what you decided on, and why.
PS I hope LM stays in SoCal so we have a nice place for winter LLSOC events. Otherwise packv12 will have to show us how they autocross on Blizzaks on the Frozen Tundra.:)
Scott
LLSOC Member
Michael Vande Voorde - drop me a line at LobsenzA@Rose-Grp.com and maybe we can get together sometime.
To me the LS is still a great choice. You get a BMW 740 sized sedan with the performance of a 530 for less than the price of a 330. Plus you can get it with smooth American V8 power without sellng your first born. Don't be fooled by BMW's higher residual %, the total depreciation in $$ not % will most likely be lower with an LS, especially with the current incentives. Overall I'd say that the LS is not as refined as the BMW's but you'll be paying a lot less.
I like the Audi exterior & interior styling so I can't knock them there plus the availibility of 4WD is nice. Where Audi falls apart for me is the standard models are FWD. If I got an Audi I would lease it for the warranty period as I have heard far too many Audi repair horror stories. I just heard last week that an aquaintance got nailed with a $10,000 transmission repair bill on his Audi. The new transmission was $9K + 1K labor. I haven't talked direct to the person so I don't know all the details but apparantly you can't get stateside rebuilts so you have to get a new or factory refurb from Germany.
The biggest downside to a LS seems to be some of the sleezy dealers still out there and some questionable service departments at some of the dealers.
Chuck
Thanks,
Brian
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/aktuell/sz/artikel141025.php
www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en
Brian
Reitzle on the jump
General of engine recruits the former BMW manager
The outlet would come a little early. Wolfgang Reitzle, which leads for three years from London the luxury marks of the American autocompany Ford, had said always, for this task needs he ten years. So for a long time it lasts, until an automark renewed and on the road brought all their models. Now the 53-jaehrige German already thinks about its parting from Fords. The competitor general of engine (GM) made an offer for it, is in the industry to be heard. Whether it goes to the competitor, is not safe. From the Ford daughter Prime Minister of automotives Group (PSG), whose boss Reitzle is, gives it no comment. Insider say, Reitzles decision is not yet pleases.
This change would be times again a spectacular jump in the career of the native new Ulmers. That had come as a young engineer to BMW and under the chairman of the board of many years Eberhard von Kuenheim a remarkable ascent made. With 38 years sat already in the executive committee. The autofool was considered as the technical brain of the white-blue, which ensured that BMW with fastidious technology and sporty image the competitor Mercedes temporarily ran off rank with the paragraph. Of course it was considered as a candidate on the BMW chief chair in Munich. But because of its inclination to show its ambition openly and because it also occasionally in multicolored lamellas was shown, could not struggle through itself from Kuenheim to make the talented technician to the company head. In the grind Reitzle left 1999 residents of Munich the enterprise and went for a multiple of his past Salaers to Fords.
The company head at that time Jacques of wet had bought to go with in the meantime the marks Volvo and country Rover and had created for Reitzle in London the Prime Minister of automotives Group (PAG), which bundles the elevated Ford marks. Of the Themse out of Germany bucked probably most well-known automanager, who is married with the Second Channel of German Television host Nina Ruge, the model pallet up of Aston Martin, Jaguar, Volvo, Land Rover, Mercury and Lincoln. But when wet end of past yearly was surprisingly fired, the life for Reitzle became substantially more difficult. And that, although the new company head Bill Ford von Reitzle holds so much that he offered even the line of the technical development for the entire company to him. But the envious people sharpened already the measurers. They strewed rumors that Reitzles star began to sink. Nod cross-eyed one, an old adversary of Reitzle, in the meantime to the second man under Bill Ford had ascended. Cross-eyed one was a jaguar boss, before Reitzle took over the PAG. One could temporarily win the impression, as if Reitzle had been impressed of cross-eyed achievements with the tradition mark only little.
The appointment Reitzles to the development boss of the Ford company would let the old rivalry revive again. Cross-eyed one is responsible with Fords for production and all factories. He could abblocken Reitzle at any time and accuse to him, its new developments were economically not to be manufactured technical and. This Sprengstoffpotenzial obviously recognized another striking sword of the automobile industry: Bob Lutz, 70, an old driving man of the industry with BMW -, Fords -, GM as well as Chrysler experience and an autofool such as Reitzle, is responsible despite its high age since at the end of of 2001 with general of engine for the autodevelopment. Lutz, a native Swiss, and Reitzle understand themselves in the best way. If Reitzle is in Detroit, he often arranges himself with Lutz to the Fachsimpelei when eating. And this cannot introduce itself in the day better one on its post as Reitzle.
Karl-Heinz
Shrub man
Well, wherever Herr Reitzle goes, I hope they're quiet.:)
Lincoln. Announced that it would be killing their "American Luxury" advertising theme line. It wasn't a real ad theme anyway, so we doubt anyone will even notice.
Lincoln. Then again, the replacement non-ad theme for Lincoln is equally stupid. Travel Well? Does anyone have a frickin' clue out there
Nick Scheele becomes "nicken scheel" which translates to: nicken - nod (one's head); scheel - cross-eyed, squinting.
Thanks!!
Snow is no problem for the LS, and in some ways, superior to FWD in snow.
I will say this, I have driven many cars through many snow storms over the years. This car performs much more predictably than the front wheel drive stuff. When a car is inherently balanced, dynamics are in balance also, therefore the car behaves in a more predicable way (I read this as safer. just my opinion).
All this being said, I will be puchasing new tires soon. I have the sport with 17" wheels. I will most likely buy dedicated 16" snows if I can find some rims cheaply enough. I am going with the Nokian snows. They blow all away in my opinion.
Hope this helps. Its about time I can lend someone else a hand for once, given all the help this board have given me.
Scott
LLSOC Maember
I used 16-inch LS rims obtained over Ebay ($212.50 with shipping) and Firestone Winterfire 215-60-16 tires at only $75 each ready to roll. As stated in a recent reply, the car was very predictable and controllable. In fact, I would take most opportunities to get the car sideways over the winter when it was snowing, and my game was to try to keep it sideways as long as possible, just to hone my control skills (and to pretend that I was driving a 3400-lb., 750 HP car on a road course in the dry)... WIth a V6M 2000 LS, there is no traction control to speak of, so I cannot vouch for what it is like to drive an LS with any of the traction or dynamic controls that are otherwise available.
In need of 2 new Firehawks, I sure do wish that the tires were back in the double-digits for pricing. How short-sighted of me to not scarf some tires at $69/per.
Surf well,
Mike
I have pretty much decided that the extra cost of at least $100 per tire for the Michelin Pilot Sport AS is just not worth it. I just don't have $400 to piss away on something that at this point is totally intangable, and it is not like I can test drive the tires. They seem to rate similarly to the Goodrich G-force Comp KDWS with the exception of the snow rating and no one can give me any real (as apposed to they're really nice) info as to what I am buying for the extra $100/tire. Does anyone have the Goodrich 245/45/17s. Are you happy with them? How do they compare with the stock Firehawks?
Thanks,
Scott
LLSOC Member
Of course, with a realization that Lincoln and Mercury are tied together, a lower content LS could be made for Mercury, with the DEW98 lite platform for the Mustang also spreading the cost of the platform across more lines. Anyone for a Cougar version of the DEW98 lite ?
I went to TireRack and only 7 of their rims fit the LS. I was looking at putting some BBS Rims on the LS but they said none of them would fit. I got a girl and she didn't know any of the Specifics for why the other rims did not fit the LS.
I feel like her(unknowledgeable). Can someone please edumacate me on the LS Rim specs.
Thanks.
Victor
I was originally interested in the ROH "Snyper" wheel, and they had the correct width and offset, but wouldn't clear the brake calipers. I wound up with a set of MIM "Venezias", from Discount Tire Direct. Good luck!
Check out LLSOC. There's been several discussions on bolt patterns, offsets, and wheels that fit. BBS has one called the RK026 wheel that is a Volvo wheel that I have on my car and fits quite well. Classic Design Concepts also has wheels that fit the LS and the LLSOC pricing make them very reasonable at around $115 per wheel
Brian
As Brian suggested, check LLSOC. We had a very active discussion on this subject quite some time ago (last year?) and exchanged alot of great information on wheel specs. The big things to keep in mind are offset, diameter (for tire fitment) and weight. Weight is an often overlooked wheel parameter in that it has a large impact on the ride characteristic of your car (it affects unsprung weight). Wheels lighter than stock wheels should improve overall ride quality while heavier ones should increase ride harshness.
Good luck in shopping this around, and please report back when you find something you like. Personally, I plan on getting a set like the ones Brian currently has on his car, as they are 18-inch and weigh significantly less than the stock 17-inch sport wheels.
By the way Brian, how are you liking the BBS RK wheel so far? How many miles have you put on them thus far?
The only caveat with the BBS RK026 wheels and the reason BBS doesn't market it as fitting for the LS is that they believe in very tight tolerances for their wheels. The Volvo center hub is about 1 mm bigger in diameter so the wheel isn't hub-centric but lug-centric. If you use the cone-type lug nuts and put them on by hand you won't have a problem.
Brian
Brian