Oil Filters, whose is best, and Why?

malachy72 · March 2003

you terrorist supporting dino users!

americanflag · March 2003

oil issues?? You guys live on this forum, and probably use pocket protectors to boot!!

bluedevils · March 2003

The first half of your post was beyond my level of comprehension. Really had no idea what your point was.

The second half I think I disagreed with. Why does everybody always use their own personal numbers in a synth vs. dino cost debate as if that is the only set of numbers that matters? Maybe for that person, it's all that matters. But there are lots of different ways that people look at that comparison.

bluedevils · March 2003

I have no idea. It's one of the mysteries of this board the last couple months, and it has begun to get under my skin. People come on here and discuss all this stuff, but because you seem to have questions about issues that some participants have already answered for themselves, they think you are wasting your own time in that same pursuit.

bluedevils · March 2003

All I can say about the 2nd paragraph of your #2174 is that it seems like really strange logic to me.

The notions of 'better' and 'performance' as they relate to oil filters are quite fuzzy. How exactly do you define and/or measure these?

bigorange30 · March 2003

that we have given the information we have and we keep going round and round and round asking and answering the same questions again and again. I realize that our information doesn't convince him so why keep asking the questions? No one here has any more answers.

bigorange30 · March 2003

that these are fuzzy issues. That's why there are so many different types of filter made and bought. I believe its better because it filters out smaller particles. No one has argued that it doesn't filter out smaller particles. I am also impressed by the studies that have been done that show how much better it is put together other filters available.

fleetwoodsimca · March 2003

Don't tell anybody I told you, but I found an old pocket protector from the 1950's. It was in my downstairs storage room. There weren't any oil filters down there, though.

bigorange30 · March 2003

would you put it in your engine? :-)

fleetwoodsimca · March 2003

Waste not, want not...

bigorange30 · March 2003

re: ruking's #2175 that you don't understand

What is hard to understand about the fact that everyone who uses an SL dino and changing at 3k is throwing away at least 25% (not 33%) of the useful life of their oil? What is so hard to understand about the fact that dino users ought to do oil analysis (and many do) also to see where they should really change their oil? Like syn users, dino users also have to include analysis in the calculation. Also, if the same % of oil changes are analyzed, then dino users will be spending more on analysis than syn users. Do you really want to include this cost too as it will make the syn look even more economical than dino?

joatmon · March 2003

ruking posted:

2000 BMW 330i up to 15k. They also use a propriatery 0w-40 or 0w-50? synthetic.

Since MB and BMW provide the oil during new car warranty they 1. do not run afoul of anti trust laws. 2.can get away with making you use their oil. The hope is after the warranty that you will want to or continue to pay the very high per quart charge, and buy through the OEM logistical chain.

Actually, BMW uses a Castrol produced 5W30. They ask you to use regular Castrol synthetic or Mobil 1 if BMW synthetic is not available. They charge $3.80 for a quart of BMW synthetic oil. Not a high cost IMHO.

MB uses 0W40 Mobil 1.

Jack

armtdm · March 2003

Good point about using ones own numbers. My experience, if cost were an issue along with warranty and time etc. etc. I would probably still be doing 3000 mile oil changes with dino and a off the shelf reasonably priced filter. This would easily get me where I want to go in engine life.

the 15,000 mile changes of Ruking1, well, in 5 vehicles I have "two" that maybe could make it there realistically and have a good analysis result. All others about 7500. No way it is cost effect for me to use synthetic especially with analysis. I do it because it is somewhat of a hobby and I can afford to do it now and I do believe it offers a larger window of protection. I cannot really recommend analysis to anyone that changes their oil every 3-4000 miles. A true waste of money unless they suspect a glycol problem. Their car body will fall off long before that engine will with 3000 mile changes.

Same is true of using a high cost (better quality???) filter then a $3-$4 off the shelf. Also, like humam life expectancy, yea, we can alter how long we live through lifestyle (oil changes etc as teh engine comparison) but the ole genetics make the biggest difference. Thus, if you have a crap engine to begin with or if you are unlucky enough to have an accident at 15,000 miles or if it is stolen or you yourself die in the long run and (very likely) get bored with the same car after 10 years, whether you use synthetic oil, pricey filters or the opposite does not really matter. What matters is what you feel comfortable with and if you can sleep at night with your plan.

bigorange30 · March 2003

"No way it is cost effect for me to use synthetic"

How can you possibly say that? I have not seen a reasonable economic analysis that supports that. Are you changing the synthetic at 3k or something?

fwatson · March 2003

I have read enough to understand that to the analysis crowd this is mostly a hobby. I think I'll just stick to my 6 month 3-4000 schedule and not devote my life to whether my clapped out car will make it to 250000 instead of "only" 200000.

I repeat, I have never had engine failure due to oil or filter. So why squander an additional $20 for an analysis I do not need, and know I do not need from 45 years of car ownership experience.

As for the supposed 25% life still left in the oil at 3000 miles. An easy solution. Just go on to 4200 miles and you will have found the "perfect" point at which to change your oil.

This is all fun reading, but I think unless you are just having a good time doing all this experimenting you are wasting your time.

bluedevils · March 2003

Oil analysis can be helpful, but it surely is not necessary or critical. If it really were, more than a miniscule portion of the car-driving public would be doing it. It's a hobby for most folks who do it, and in some cases it borders on fanatical.

Did you really say, with a straight face, that dino users who change their oil every 3-4k miles should be doing oil analysis? Give me a break. And in the same post, you implied that SL oil can safely go 4k miles without analysis? I am getting really confused. I know what *I* think, but I am confused about what *you* think.

There are a million different scenarios that would lay out a situation in which dino is cheaper to use than synthetic. I've given a few examples in the past and won't bother to repeat that again. Why do you insist on pretending that it's impossible? You make these wide-ranging statements based on what YOU think the intervals should be. Well, there are other intervals that people use.

bluedevils · March 2003

Very good post. You are a reasonable person.

adc100 · March 2003

And I fall into exactly the same catagory. Except armtdm has done oil analysis for many many more years thn me on many more cars.

fwatson I will say one thing on the oil analysis-as armtdm pointed out: An oil analysis can spot serious problems like antifreeze leak or an intake leak which can be addressed before uglier issues arise.

bigorange30 · March 2003

Everyone has to determine how long they will leave whatever oil they are using in their engine.

Some just go by what Jiffy Lube and oil manufacturers say. These companies make more money if you change more often.

Some listen to what others (fathers, automakers, their specific car manual etc.) and just do what they have been taught.

Still others want to know what is REALLY required whether its dino or synthetic. Those of us in that camp will do an analysis and find out. Each car is different. Even within the same make and model there can be some differences. Also, each driver has different driving habits. Different areas of the country will also affect how an oil performs differently. Therefore, another person's analysis is helpful but does not fully define what you might see in your own car. There are alot of analyses here and on Bob's site and yes, some of them are even from dino oil. No one said it was critcal or necessary but it is helpful in determining YOUR requirements for YOUR car.

Feel free to guess for your own car, I choose not to for mine.

fwatson · March 2003

Not being into operating a fleet of taxis or semis, I've gotta bring up another question.

Do fleet operators run an analysis every oil change on every vehicle? Or do they rely on the results of tests on another identical vehicle as a guide to their maintenance?

I have a feeling they would soon be bankrupt if they followed the every vehicle/every time schedule. Of course truck fleet operators are also dealing with changing gallons at a time as opposed to 4-5 quarts.

bigorange30 · March 2003

Since they have several of the same make and model driven with similar driving habits in the same region, they can rely on a small # of analyses. I would think they would do it on a different one in the fleet each time it needs to be done though in case there are some differences in the individual vehicles. As far as big rigs if that what you mean by "truck fleet operators", the regional issues go away since they drive all over the place. I bet they test each rig at least once or twice in its life. Its peanuts compared to the cost of the truck and the value they would get from it.

Any fleet operators here that can tell us?

ruking1 · March 2003

I used to have a NDI, non destruct inspection section for a fleet of F4E fighter jets. In that shop one of the critical sections was gas spec. As part of periodic maintenance the applicable tests were run. Also if the techs found something out of the ordinary it was easy to authorize testing.

While the care and feeding of a multi million dollar aircraft might be considered important, the goal that kept me motivated and at times up at night was to never put a pilot at the risk of not fulfilling the mission due to a maintenance malfunction. Even though at times his life was really quite secondary.

Of course for our cars, the standards are mercifully not that extreme.

opera_house_wk · March 2003

and they had these people who inspected the blades and ground the nicks out of them. They were classified as "visual inspectors" and they certified the blades for use. They were also classified as legally blind. They would form a human train, hand on sholder of the person ahead, when it was time for a restroom break. Interesting thing was that the others who could see all had bandaids on their fingers from being burnt by the high speed grinding belt that had no guards. None of the blind guys ever had bandaids.

After an engine was put together sometimes it wouldn't pass the performance specs. Too many notches in the blades and new blades were always in short supply. So they would call in the calibraion guys. After about the third calibration it would somehow pass. If you tweek enough parameters in the right direction, you can get the numbers you want.

Nothing to do with oil but a cute story. I see nothing achieved from using anything more than my 4K $6.50 Walmart oil and filter changes.

ruking1 · March 2003

I do like the WalMart filters!! It has to be close to the best bang for the buck on the market.

fowvay · March 2003

If those jet engines were operated on civil aircraft and over U.S. airspace then by FAA guidelines "ALL" critical rotating engine parts were required to have been FPI inspected after any blending or other rework. All fan and turbine blades with 'fir tree' roots are required to be HFEC inspected for cracks also. And if they are British made Rolls-Royce RB series engines then their frequency of inspection is doubled in most applications.

Would you care to publish the name of this repair station? I believe a few of my co-workers would like to pay you a visit.

ruking1 · March 2003

#2209

We are here to HELP you!!

blackz24 · March 2003

I am just curious, the synthetic from what this chat is saying, is that it can last longer then conventional oil.
1. I do run synth. and it comes out black after 5000kms (3125 miles).
2. The filter is always Delco.
3. But I DON'T baby my car.

The engine has 78000 miles on it, and a few bolt on's. Does anybody have some insight into why the oil comes out this way?

Thanks

bigorange30 · March 2003

That doesn't mean its bad.

ruking1 · March 2003

My Mobil One after 14-15k miles is pretty dark, now that you mention it!

Black means or shows that your oil is doing the job for which it was formulated.

When you say a few mods are they mods that can affect or effect the oil?

blackz24 · March 2003

It matters because when the filter is removed it is very heavy. This would lead me to conclude that the oil is past its point of usefulness

The mod's to the engine that may affect the oil would be a short ram intake with a K&N off of a 5.0L Mustang. My car is a Z24 Cavalier

bigorange30 · March 2003

How does the oil being black relate to the filter being heavy? How does either issue lead you to conclude that the oil is exhausted?

fleetwoodsimca · March 2003

...because it is full of oil. (:o<

blackz24 · March 2003

clarify, after allowing the filter to drain overnite, the filter feels about 2 or 3X heaver then a new filter. The oil also appears to be a lot thinner upon draining, even if its cold. I use 5W30. But the new oil is a lot thicker. Is there a way to accurately conclude if they are spent?
Is there a place in Canada that does oil / filter analyzed?

americanflag · March 2003

Filters are just useless appendages, remember?

americanflag · March 2003

talk about oil issues on an oil board, then where can you talk about these things? And it's the people that are most obsessed with this stuff that are getting on me about it!

americanflag · March 2003

individuals on this board are having difficulty following the line of reasoning here, so I came up with a hypothetical example to illustrate it.

Imagine you have to clean a wall with a water hose. The wall is next to a machine that is constantly throwing dirt on the wall.

In addition, the water coming through the hose is dirty. There is a filter that cleans the water as it comes out the hose.

Which would allow you to keep the wall cleaner? A filter that took a higher percentage of the dirt out of the water, but flowed less water overall, or;

a filter which took out less dirt from the water but flowed a stronger stream of water.

This is not a perfect example but it is an example of why I think there is more to a filter than just its filtration level.

bigorange30 · March 2003

With the dirty water, the wall will never get any cleaner than the water is. Clean water has more dirt holding capacity/gallon than the dirty water has. The low flowing clean water MAY never get it any cleaner than the the high flowing dirty water but it has a POTENTIAL to be as clean as the water is.

americanflag · March 2003

more clear, imagine the more efficient filter only flowed 1/3 as much water as the less efficient filter. I think the wall would be cleaner with filter #2 in that case.

Also, imagine that the purpose was not just to keep the wall clean, but to also cool the wall (cooling is also one of the functions of engine oil). Then the high flowing filter would have even more of an a chance of being the more effective design.

bigorange30 · March 2003

And the flow in filters is not as much different as you are talking.

knapp3 · March 2003

I suspect the basic problem is that eventually you reach a point of diminishing return. Namely it doesn't matter how clean the water is, or good the flow is, because what dirt is left on the wall won't do any harm anyway. Same with Mobil 1 filters. Their flow most likely passes the minimum amount needed to keep any engine protected. And oil any cleaner probably won't make the engine last any longer.

Examples: I use Mobil 1 filters on some of my cars, but in the back of my mind I always wonder if it's money wasted because so many others can point to great engine life with a history of using Frams. I've also run a few oil analysis too. Fortunately in my case, the single digit wear numbers are so low I don't see how a higher flow filter can improve the results any. And yes, I've read Bobistheoilguy's little mobil vs fram test.

bigorange30 · March 2003

through the mobil1 filter? They actually claim that there is less resistance to flow than other filters while still filtering better. I am certainly not one to believe any company's propoganda without verifying it so I want to see some objective evidence. Anyone have a link? I figured since some of you believe it has less flow, you know where there is some evidence.

knapp3 · March 2003

Evidence? What Evidence? I don't think there really is any, other than this post where a guy compared two oil analysis results and voiced the interpretation that the differnce may be due to the difference in the flow of the 2 oil filters, one of which was a Mobil 1. Ever since then there seems to be more interest at various oil-related web sites on the internet about oil flow when selecting filters.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;- f=3;t=000211

bigorange30 · March 2003

is just totally irrelevant because between the 2 filters, he is using different oil. He has claimed that the additives make all the difference and he says that the only difference between the thes 2 oils is the additives. huh? So, how can you consider that comparison valid then? It tells you nothing about flow either. He guesses that the difference is flowrate but has not data to support that. I submit that the difference was the additives in the oil that made the difference.

bigorange30 · March 2003

http://www.reliabilityweb.com/articles/oil_clean01.htm

It describes just how important clean oil is. Extending engine life 8-10 times is tremendous. It means that I wouldn't ever have to think about having to replace an engine. It makes me wonder what the real results will be with mobil1.

ruking1 · March 2003

#2227

Well surely the experimental design can introduce some doubt and call into question the confidence levels for sure. But certainly, there is something to be gleened from this effort.

So assume that the raw numbers are correct, i.e. unfaked etc. Lets take it from there.

#2228

If I understand the gist of what your above article says. I think it makes a serious case for bypass filtering and pre oilers. Not to mention synthetic oil!!

adc100 · March 2003

I think its difficult to extrapolate ISO cleanliness to a specific piece of equipment such as a gasoline engine. For instances-High precision ball and roller bearings are extremely prone to early failure with larger dirt particles. So its not only the number but the distribution. For instance ISO Cleanliness 18/16/13 referrs to cleanliless at 2microns/5microns/15microns (just an example). You need to know the cleanliness levels the micron size and than equate it from say a very small clearance hydraulic system with high precision parts. That compared to the relative cave-man dimensions of the automobile engine. What micron filter size is needed for a great improvement in life. 20 micron? 15 micron? 10? 5? No onre really knows what micron gives what improvement in life-if any. Yes cleaner oil will help-but to what degree?

bigorange30 · March 2003

that explains exactly why the mobil1 high efficiency filter does not sacrifice flow for filterability. Basically its in the depth of the media.

http://www.carjunky.com/news/motor_oil/mom7.shtml

americanflag: Look under the "What About Oil Starvation?" section to see this

"This is also how high efficiency oil filters work. Instead of trapping all of the oil contaminants on the surface of a paper (cellulose) type filtration media, high efficiency oil filters have a depth type media which will trap contaminants throughout the entire filtration media. This, combined with the different type of materials used for the filtration media allows high efficiency oil filters to remove more and smaller particles without restricting oil flow - just as high efficiency foam air filters remove more and smaller particles without restricting air flow."

americanflag · March 2003

got me thinking about the Mobil 1. The best research is from the SAE, does anyone have any of that stuff?

By the way, not to rain on the parade, but the air filter is probably much more important than the oil filter. Just please don't start bashing the K&N, it is the best filter made. There is just a lot of superstition out there about it.

americanflag · March 2003

the K&N Air Filter works.

according2me · March 2003

the V6 Altima and Maxima users that have blown MAF sensors and use K&N filters. At over $300 to replace the sensors, that's one expensive air filter!!!

Just use the OEM paper airfilter.

Oil Filters, whose is best, and Why?

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