for me, i'd put one vote down for a manual transmission option for an ODY in '05.
i have only driven automatic transmission vehicles when renting on business or vacation. never really liked the thought of turning over control to the car to decide on when to shift up, or for that matter shift down. always appreciated the additional control i had with a manual. my wife is the same. maybe we are in the minority.
maybe i'm getting better mileage with the automatic than i would if it were manual. maybe.
i don't think i'll use the ODY cruise ctl either, just like i never used it in my manual '94 accord coupe. there's an automation feature i could do without. i'm fairly confident i can control the accelerator better than the automation, specially when there's traffic.
i want to stay more actively engaged with the driving task...shouldn't everyone?
will ABS help me? I don't know. I'm used to pumping the brakes in non-ABS equipped vehicles. i think i'm not supposed to do the same w/ABS. on that one, i'm on the fence.
probably the simplest and cheapest way to increase safety through the use of automation is for cell phone owners to use their "off" button before they head off anywhere.
please honda - don't go implementing numerous computer configurable and automated options for cabin lights, door locks, and climate control. keep it simple.
consider tossing in an electronic compass and outside temp standard.
Keep it clean and simple with a lower price than the Sienna. Also, while I'm at it, how about a tiptronic shift feature, electronic compass and temp display, three zone climate, and maybe a hybrid version. Otherwise, Keep it clean and simple and inexpensive and we'll have a hit, Honda.
Dako_tian, by clicking on your name I find that you own a 1929 Yugo. So you own a 1929 Yugo and you want "as much of that technological assist" as you can get ?! This is weird. By the way, I agree with your friend.
Thanks for support User777. It would be really funny to see a manual transmission Odyssey. But you have no chance ! People who loved cars, so loved to be in control of them, were replaced by people who want computers to drive their cars. Probably the only thing who really bothers me is that the computers, if malfunctioning, got the power to kill us. For instance any ordinary traction control system has the authority to apply brakes to even one wheel at a time, without touching the others. Volvo recently designed the "stability control" system who can do the same thing. These are safety systems !
So you drive peacefully with 60 miles/hour listening to your kids chat, the malfunctioning system suddenly decides to apply the brakes on the front left wheel, obviously the car instantly steers to the left and hits the incoming truck ! You and your family are history. Sounds impossible ? Better believe it ! Especially if the system is made in Taiwan ...
Best advice, rightfully predicted by dako_tian: if you bought one of those computer driven cars better keep both hands glued to the steering wheel. If you are fit and fast ... you could override the computer and survive. You won your bet Timoy !
I lied about driving a 1929 Yugo. I couldn't find one that old.
I'm betting that the odds are several orders of magnitude higher that the very best driver alive today will someday make (has already made?) at least one mistake while driving that could have caused an accident than that the same driver would ever experience such a failure of the technologies you despise so much. IOW, if we are ever in our lifetimes involved in an automobile crash, the odds are much, much, much higher that it will be due to driver error than to technological failure.
I am a programmer, among other things, and so not to be trusted. But that almost means that I am not so foolish as to trust programming and technologies completely. However, from what I've seen and heard and read, I will place my bets on the technology before I will trust any driver, including me... or you!
so i suppose you write absolutely defect free code? at least i presume you believe you do.
complex systems these days are pretty complex...
frankly, i'd put more trust in say the 1968/69-vintage Apollo LEM computer technology - of orders more simple than some present day embedded systems. way back then, people did a really excellent job designing reliable mission critical systems...
sorry, but you potentially strike me as a technology for technology's sake zealot.
have you had the good fortune to have been exposed to human-computer interaction issues related to complex systems?
if so, you know that when automation does too much for the human, people become more passive rather than actively engaged - and people are poor passive monitors! they have a more difficult time accurately maintaining proper situational awareness. they have a difficult time forming and keeping an accurate mental model of what the current technology state is, what it is doing for them, and further, predicting future system states.
you don't necessarily make a system inherently safer by tossing in more technology. typically you end up making it more complex, expensive, less reliable, harder to maintain, and harder to understand and use.
i'll place my money on the better trained, actively engaged driver on every trip.
Honda. Please remain true to fundamentals.
Please no runflats, no laser cruise, no indash DVD-video, no playstation consoles, no multi-option configurable system computers, no sat uplink/downlink LAN interfaces.
Reliable, dependable, safe, affordable, simple people mover technology. KISS.
A dizzying array of ala-cart or bundled options, high tech or medium tech would just cheapen the car.
Actually, I thought dako_tian made some good points.
There is ample evidence that computer-aided driving aids (eg. ABS, stability control, skid control) do improve safety under extreme driving conditions. Many auto insurance companies now offer discounts on the same vehicle if equipped with these options...and those bloodsuckers don't offer discounts unless the numbers solidly prove the case. I'm not talking laser cruise control or DVD players here, I'm talking safety devices.
user777 said it best:
"i'll place my money on the better trained, actively engaged driver on every trip"
No kidding! Problem is, you can't count on the other guy being well trained and actively engaged, and that will never change. So the next time some moron is daydreaming in rushhour traffic and has to slam on his brakes and/or swerve around me, I'll be glad he's got ABS.
And said it better and more succintly, I might add (good man, phil47!).
But, what the hey, I worked hard on this reply, so...
Note that I did not say nor did I imply "technology for technology's sake." I'll admit my reference to my vocation was perhaps too subtle in showing why I know for certain that no code should be trusted implicitly. I definitely do not write flawless code (and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise! ;-)). In fact, as a certifiable UNIX "cowboy" (double meanings wrt my Texas location intended), my tendency is to get it going fast and fix it on the fly when it breaks (brakes?) later. But then, I don't code anything with a human-life-threatening potential either.
Even when I did support an E911 address database, I believed and still believe that an occasional failure of the information automation could be a good thing if it reminds the E911 operators to never fully trust the address info that pops up on their screens. Some healthy skepticism is warranted in this case, but that skepticism tends to fade over time if the system is never, ever unavailable. That very too-trusting mistake has sent police officers, paramedics and/or fire trucks to the not-yet-updated-in-the-database last address of a few unfortunate callers in years past. Now, before anyone jumps my case, please do notice that I am talking about the portion that automatically displays an address and not the E911 voice connection.
But our friend rodut has not been talking about "laser cruise, ...in-dash DVD-video, ...playstation consoles, ...multi-option configurable system computers, [nor]...sat uplink/downlink LAN interfaces." Neither was I (though their may be value in some of those also).
Rodut did specifically object to anti-skid technology and ABS systems. Both, I have no doubt, are much more reliable than the best drivers out there. Surely, the automated versions will someday experience a provable and possibly fatality-causing failure. But drivers in the United States still do that much more regularly to the tune of 40,000+ traffic deaths every year.
I am simply unconvinced that those two technologies put any of us more at risk. Quite the opposite and until proven otherwise, I am reasonably certain that they have helped keep the highway death numbers almost unchanged as population, total number of vehicles and total number of miles driven have all skyrocketed.
On another note; a new "favorite" Dallas area way to kill oneself vehicularly these last few years (adding to running red lights/stop signs and good old-fashioned excessive speed) seems to be to simply drive around the crossing gates as a commuter train approaches. Unfortunately, a fair number of these people have brought their children with them as they hurried into the after-life. Disgusting.
Which makes me think that an automatic-engine-kill-and-brake-lockup-at-lowered-train-track-cro- - - ssing-gates device might be an excellent technological development! Hmmmmm, maybe I'll offer the idea to TI for free. Now where is their phone number?....
I thought this was about future honda ody, nothing sofar, so just ramble, give us meat not this stuff. Move to a general discussion board, where is the Host monitoring this stuff and fluff. dig for details, this is boring.
Has anyone heard if the 2005 Ody will have AWD in it...Trying to decide between Sienna and Ody but I whatever I end up with, I want AWD. Any info is appreciated. Thanks.
ok, dako, i'm convinced your not a technology zealot.
you make some good points and i don't disagree with them.
and, you also demonstrate you are aware of human/computer interaction issues.
my main point was that increasingly complex systems have attributes which remove the driver from the act of driving.
it's true that i mentioned a few technologies that merely detract from and compete with a driver's situational awareness. they don't add safety...they only take away from it. ;(
as for safety related technologies: one can make the argument that ABS could make it harder for a driver to get and maintain proper road condition SA (situation awareness) under some scenarios.
hypothetically, you drive on some slippery road with the conditions near freezing, and come to some stops and the ABS does the breaking finesse for you. you conclude (falsely) the conditions are more favorable / safer than they really are. you come to another intersection and there's a good patch of ice, and well...no amount of break pulsation is going to help...your luck just ran out.
poor drivers may be lulled into believing they are safer in an ABS equipped vehicle and they won't skid, they can drive faster and the car won't get away from them in a panic manuver...
technology can be confusing and/or misleading. for example: "traction control": unless I'm mistaken, on the Honda, it doesn't do anything for you when you're speeds are above 10MPH. It just slows down one of your front wheels when your taking off from a stop so the tires spin at the same speed. by its very name, it may falsely lead some people to believe the traction they have at ANY speed is improved (when it is not). OK, that's more of a training/education issue...time to RTM.
and yes (it was late when I posted) I mentioned some technologies which the thread wasn't discussing...apologies.
if Honda chooses to include alot of entertainment / information mgmt stuff in the car, the driver will likely become more distracted. so i oppose that.
i was suggesting that there's this desire by people to get vehicles which tend to be "feature laiden". IMHO, they are pulling too much of their non-transportation lives into their transportation experience, because the technology is faciliating that...and it shouldn't.
while i believe technologies like ABS can help average and poorly trained drivers, i still believe (and admittedly i could be wrong about it), that a skilled aware driver is the safer bet.
i admittedly need to do some research to see if there is a comparison of ABS used by the common driver vs. a skilled driver and see how performance compares.
nofeer, i don't think the dialog was off topic. the forum topic seems to imply discussion about what might be, what we might want it to be, what's been released about what will be...
my apologies again for wasting the bandwidth. regards.
I agree with your statement that "increasingly complex systems have attributes which remove the driver from the act of driving."
I saw a highway surveillance camera video of a German Autobahn driver rounding a corner at over 150 mph, sliding, then rolling several times, before ending up upside down. The amazing thing was that the driver then climbed out and sat down beside the car, essentially unharmed though undoubtedly shaking like a leaf. This was accomplished because he was driving a Mercedes convertible(!?!) that was equipped with a roll over-sensing device that had instantly deployed a hidden roll bar that prevented the driver from leaving a long, nasty smudge on the landscape.
Now, maybe that driver has wrongly concluded that his driving was not really so bad since he walked away. But I'm guessing it took a very long time for those shakes to stop and his driving was probably much improved for some weeks afterward, if not forever. I'm all for him having the chance to reform rather than dying for his errors.
Similarly, I suppose some dense drivers ignore the pulsing they feel in their braking foot when ABS kicks in. They will doubtless pay for that error eventually. But the point is that they will have at least one extra chance to learn.
FWIW, I think you are correct about the Honda "traction control" only functioning under 10MPH. But, if my '95 Civic had been so equipped, it might have been slightly less exciting pulling out onto the damp asphalt trying to join the relentless commuter convoy.
The last thing I'll mention is my disdain for a friend (not a close one) who spent an extra $7,000+ on an MDX by loading it down with every electronic gadget available at the dealer. He apparently did so for the dubious honor of saying he had them. Of course, I question that wisdom anyway, but the more so when I heard he was asking his wife to limit her driving because of fears of using too much gas!?! To each his/her own, as they say....
Some features please. The NAV system would help in unfamilar places, and the rear seat DVD player would shut kids up. Otherwise, just keep it simple, Honda. the buyers will come. (Rear sonars would be nice but not necessary for me)
Hey guys, as you heat up I like you more and more ! This is better than TV !
I want to quote the post no 390 from the "Toyota Sequoia Owners: Problems & Solutions". That very lucky lady said:
"the VSC/skid control went out on me as I pulled out in traffic (with my two young children) and proceeded to brake on me without my control. I managed to force it off the road, without accident and called my mechanic whom I know his name and number by heart! Nice huh? Was a scrambled computer chip!??"
Guys I was right ... I was hoping that my sick imagination went too far ...
My final conclusions (just for myself) are: _ technology will make us dumber, but I agree that the dumbest among us would be less dangerous. Smart cars should be sold only to mentally impaired people or people showing dangerous driving skills. _ any PASSIVE safety device is welcome. Like curtain airbags or the jumping roll bar Dako_Tian talked about, etc. _ technology MUST NOT have the power to kill us IF defective. For instance anything steering or braking related is critical and better avoid it.
ABS systems should be the end of the game on steering and braking. If ABS breaks, either I will have regular brakes (almost no risk even for dummies) or I won't have brakes at all (there is some risk there, but I will still have the opportunity to fight for my life by using the hand brake and switching gears 5-4-3-2-1 to lower the speed). If a system who has the authority to APPLY brakes or steer the car breaks, I doubt I will have the luck the lady in Toyota's post #390 had. I can imagine lots of scenarios where sudden braking or/and steering will be the end of it. I am not sure I am afraid of death, but why die stupidly ?!
Last point: Honda has a good reputation among car enthusiasts. Do you want to put those Civic racers who leave lots of waving skid marks in the middle of the highway in front of the police station in traction control cars ?! This won't work Honda ...
has always been the sporty guy's car. Don't change, or you'll be like Toyota. Overboard with options. Keep it simple. Buyers will come. The TL is simple enough. base, NAV, A-Spec, color, and tranny choices are it. Toyota? Options, options, finding the car, etc.... HONDA, BUYERS WILL COME IF YOU KEEP IT SIMPLE!
Since AWD would require moving/redesigning the gas tank and the folding rear seat, I would doubt that they would call any such creation an "Odyssey" but would design an entirely new vehicle. Oh wait. They already did that. It's called a "Pilot"... ;-)
If i were looking for a SUV and not a Minivan, then we could consider the Pilot, 4Runner, or many other SUV alternatives. If Honda doesn't consider AWD for it's vans in the near future, it will definately start losing share to the Sienna since it has all the things the Odyssey has and AWD(important to folks in bad weather climates especially after a winter like we had in 2002-2003).
I would love to buy a Pilot, but it is too small. I would love to buy a Sequoia, but it is too big and expensive. I would love to buy an Odyssey with AWD. Not available. I will buy a Sienna in 2 years to replace my Odyssey if Honda has not made AWD available on the Odyssey.
So Toyota is more technologically advanced that they can offer AWD, but Honda can't. IMHO, to not offer AWD when their primary competitor does, would not only cost sales today, but tomorrow on other vehicles from those who stray from Honda to get the AWD.
tmdep: You will find it harder and harder to shop by vehicle label type. Even the Pilot isn't really an SUV, it's more of a crossover vehicle (an SUV-look body sitting on basically a car chassis). What's more the Odyssey, Sienna, Chrysler's offerings, et al, are "Full-Size Minivans" -- if that isn't a stretch ala "Jumbo Shrimp" then I don't know what is.
IMHO, if you move a minivan up high enough to offer reasonable AWD while still keeping a true folding third seat (meaning that there is some large portion of cargo space available with the seat folded and not a mountainous protrusion on the floor), then you've pretty much got an SUV no matter what you call it. Ask Subaru about that one wrt their "station wagons"....
matherson: Since the Pilot has one more seat-belted seating position than any of these minivans, I call only assume you are refering to the cargo space behind the third row when you say that the Pilot is "too small." If so, then you are stating your case on more reasonable points. Certainly the only SUV that has such cargo space (akin to the bigger minivans) is the Suburban/Yukon XL twins. With special deals, astute shopping and willpower to avoid the more exotic options, you could get one of those behemoths for around $33,000/$34,000 (respectively) -- 4WD will set you back another couple of grand each. That also gets you a whole lot more quiet, comfort and convenience than any of the minivans offer. Plus it gets you a 8-cylinder engine that will move the thing around using very little more gas than the minivans do either (by virtue of the torque for startups without having to dump all the fuel in at once).
Since I mentioned gas mileage, go browse that topic under the Pilot boards. You'll see that all but the most old-lady-like drivers are getting abysmal mileage on the Pilots -- especially around town. That is because of the aforementioned strains that a 6-cylinder must go through to accelerate a couple tons from a stop. But it is also because the vaunted AWD kicks in every time you do so, pulling down even more of our precious fuel reserves (do we have any reserves left?). I can only suppose that a comparable "minivan" would do no better.
So, we seem to be arguing labels, semantics and trade-offs here. To my eye the market is already offering what you guys are saying you want. The only problem seems to be when it comes time to pay for it. I have the same problem myself. ;-)
The Pilot 3rd row leg room is laughable. My 7 year old was banging her knees against the 2nd row. Fine for a short ride, but that's about it. Also as you mentioned the space behind the 3rd row is lacking, to put it kindly. As much as I would rather own a large SUV, the minivan is more practical for my family. I have little interest in a GM vehicle. Have done that before and been dissapointed every time. Thanks for the info though.
Just curious. What are you driving while you wait for a suitably-spacious, reasonably-priced, conveniently-configured, AWD vehicle?
Our family has been able to struggle by with one vehicle (an extended-cab pickup) since I work from home most of the time and our children are not yet school age. But the time is coming faster than the money is!... ;-)
I currently own a SUV and a Minivan...replacing the existing van with a AWD Minivan. I was willing to hold off on ordering the Sienna if Honda was going to put the AWD in the Odyssey and then I would compare the two. The Pilot has the same step in height as my SUV which my family doesn't like. Sienna was able to accomodate a lower step in height, flat floor, fold into floor 3rd row seat. Honda had better reconsider as I know of several others who want Honda/Toyota quality but AWD....and right now, there is only 1 place to get it...Take it from a Van/SUV owner..love my SUV, however when loading up the family, usually take the van since it's easier to load the kids and stuff. Of course IMHO.
You know what you want and that is good. But why not get the Sienna with the AWD you like?
For me the answer would be because I think the new Sienna design is just about the ugliest I have seen in many years... from any angle. Maybe you forget about that once you are inside, but I haven't been able to get that far! Of course, I'm curmudgeony enough to write off Mazdas for no better reason than their silly-looking "hamburger" logo.... ;-)
We have a 99 Odyssey. Like it very much, but would be happier with an opportunity to buy an AWD Odyssey. UNless there isn't one, in which case I will have to buy an AWD Sienna.
dako_tian wrote: "if you move a minivan up high enough to offer reasonable AWD while still keeping a true folding third seat (meaning that there is some large portion of cargo space available with the seat folded and not a mountainous protrusion on the floor), then you've pretty much got an SUV no matter what you call it."
Have you seen the Sienna AWD? It has relatively large cargo space with the seat *UP* as well as seat folded! As far as "reasonable AWD", Sienna AWD system (same as RX330) works better than many SUV including MDX's VTM-4, Pilot, CR-V, RAV4 etc.
I can't see the difficulty in putting a AWD system into Odyssey, since it is based on the same chassis as MDX. The developmental cost should be much less than implementing a system from grounds up.
That helps explain why the side-view of the Sienna has those seemingly tiny tires under a huge mass of metal bulging up. They built it like an SUV but stretched the metal lower to call it a minivan. http://www.toyota.com/images/vehicles/sienna/gallery/exterior/lar- ge/photo_4.jpg If you take the profile and overlay it on that of most crossover SUVs, you'll find the only real difference is a little bit of length.
dako_tian wrote: "That helps explain why the side-view of the Sienna has those seemingly tiny tires under a huge mass of metal bulging up. They built it like an SUV but stretched the metal lower to call it a minivan."
But how is the side profile different from any other minivan like Odyssey and Caravan? Sienna is built as a minivan from grounds up. It does share some major components with RX330; but it is definitely not a "stretched SUV".
"If you take the profile and overlay it on that of most crossover SUVs, you'll find the only real difference is a little bit of length."
??? Since Sienna looks like another other MiniVan, so you imply that the above is true for all MiniVan? Anyways, I really don't get your point as interior, seat arrangements, ride height, sliding doors are all key difference between a minivan and SUVs.
Odyssey and MDX are also siblings; but there are still very different.
Then Honda will lose some customers, unless they make the Pilot bigger. But then why does the Sienna have the AWD? That is as much an overlap as Honda would have, especially when you consider the smaller Honda lineup compared to Toyota.
jchan2 wrote: "That's why we don't have a 7-Seat Highlander"
Toyota heard you.... 2004 Highlander will have 7 seat option with fold flat 3rd row, Vehicle Stability Control, Side guard curtain, Brake Assist and RX330/Sienna's 3.3L engine and 5 speed auto.
The Highlander could be an 8-Seater. Very cramped in that 3rd row, however. it'd be very interesting if Toyota pulls the plug on AWD Siennas. I've never seen one on the road- just a bunch of LEs, CEs, and XLEs. Not one AWD or XLE Limited.
The one thing I hate about Honda is the extreme secrecy. I have a 2003 Ody with NAV. I added DVD/VCR/TV. I like it a lot.
I think it would be a perfect minivan if they would make the DVD RES+NAV together from factory and then add real wood trim.
Of course, Honda won't listen to me. But I think it will sell great.
Have one Ody LX, one EX, one EX+RES+Leather, one EX+NAV+DVD RES+Leather+wood trim. I think people who want NAV will also want EVERYTHING like DVD RES and REAL wood trim and we would pay the extra $$.
Overall, after looking at the new Sienna XLE Limited and comparing it to the Ody, I still think the Ody is better if it had NAV+DVD RES+Wood trim+side curtain airbags+tire pressure monitor.
I would be crazy enough to trade in my '03 Ody to get the new Ody if it had all these features.
You know after you buy something for a while, you tend to look around and ask yourself if you had made the right decision. I still think the looks of the Ody is better than any minivan out there.
What honda needs to do is to make its 2005 odyssey luxurious as the sienna it should have side curtain airbags, wood trim, and its said that it will have climate control system for every row, it should also have HID's , and 17" alloys, tire pressure system, LCD display cluster, power rear liftgate, heated and cooled front seats abd 2nd row seats too, and if they can also do it 2nd row side airbags it would be a very nice feature, 2nd and 3rd row sunshade blinds, and of course they should make the ody bigger, bolder, and with sharp lines!! because honda have some catching up to do with the sienna and chevrolet is also bringing their new van to the market is called the Chevrolet Uplander its said that it wonrt be the same as the pontiac montana it will be a unique chevy design so thats something interesting to see chevys van skills ok but honda needs to make its van a bomb!1 because the 05 ody already has some custumers waiting so it better be good honda!!!!
as far as i know the 05' odyssey would be introduced on fall 2004 and i think the chevy uplander is too so that a big competition!
By the way dont you guys think that car magazines and everywhere they should not compare the 03 or 04 odyssey with the 04 quest or 04 sienna they should just compare the sienna and the quest not the odyssey because both the sienna and the quest have been redisingned but the ody hasnt they will but until fall 2004 on Motor Trend Nov 03 they compared the 03 ody EX-L with RES the 04 sienna XLE limited with rear DVD and the 04 quest with rear DVD leather and sky view roof i dont know the name of that trim but the point is that the 3 of them had rear DVD, NAV, leather, and all the goodies and the point of that test was to see if the odyssey could still beat the 04 sienna and the 04 quest but it didnt, the sienna won and of course it did because it has better stuff and its already redisign the honda isnt so they shopuld not compare the ody with the 04 vans they should wait untill the 05 ody is out and then compare to see how the 05 ody beats those other competing vans!
The idea of testing is so that people see what they can buy today. Fair or not, people buying today are comparing the current Ody against the new Sienna and Quest. Also, don't forget that in 1999 they were comparing the new Ody against the old Sienna and Quest - was that fair??!!
hey man can you tell us what web site can we log onto to see the magazine for the 2005 Japanese Honda Odyssey? or if it is in japanese can you tell us all the new options and new features that the 05 ody will have?? by having the 3rd row power folding seat the 05 ody will sure beat the sienna and the quest but please mhuang100 can you tell us all the new features and options because its very interesting to see in what ways will the 05 ody would beat the sienna adn the quest.
Here's what I think about the wood trim: I don't think that it is a real selling point- just something there to make it a little more beautiful. Also, I want the NAV but I don't want to be bogged down with the RES, Leather or wood trim. Hence why I bought a 2002 EX cloth instead of a 2002 EX-L NAV. Dealing without the NAV- bought a bunch of maps.
Comments
i have only driven automatic transmission vehicles when renting on business or vacation. never really liked the thought of turning over control to the car to decide on when to shift up, or for that matter shift down. always appreciated the additional control i had with a manual. my wife is the same. maybe we are in the minority.
maybe i'm getting better mileage with the automatic than i would if it were manual. maybe.
i don't think i'll use the ODY cruise ctl either, just like i never used it in my manual '94 accord coupe. there's an automation feature i could do without. i'm fairly confident i can control the accelerator better than the automation, specially when there's traffic.
i want to stay more actively engaged with the driving task...shouldn't everyone?
will ABS help me? I don't know. I'm used to pumping the brakes in non-ABS equipped vehicles. i think i'm not supposed to do the same w/ABS. on that one, i'm on the fence.
probably the simplest and cheapest way to increase safety through the use of automation is for cell phone owners to use their "off" button before they head off anywhere.
please honda - don't go implementing numerous computer configurable and automated options for cabin lights, door locks, and climate control. keep it simple.
consider tossing in an electronic compass and outside temp standard.
Thanks for support User777. It would be really funny to see a manual transmission Odyssey. But you have no chance ! People who loved cars, so loved to be in control of them, were replaced by people who want computers to drive their cars. Probably the only thing who really bothers me is that the computers, if malfunctioning, got the power to kill us. For instance any ordinary traction control system has the authority to apply brakes to even one wheel at a time, without touching the others. Volvo recently designed the "stability control" system who can do the same thing. These are safety systems !
So you drive peacefully with 60 miles/hour listening to your kids chat, the malfunctioning system suddenly decides to apply the brakes on the front left wheel, obviously the car instantly steers to the left and hits the incoming truck ! You and your family are history. Sounds impossible ? Better believe it ! Especially if the system is made in Taiwan ...
Best advice, rightfully predicted by dako_tian: if you bought one of those computer driven cars better keep both hands glued to the steering wheel. If you are fit and fast ... you could override the computer and survive. You won your bet Timoy !
I'm betting that the odds are several orders of magnitude higher that the very best driver alive today will someday make (has already made?) at least one mistake while driving that could have caused an accident than that the same driver would ever experience such a failure of the technologies you despise so much. IOW, if we are ever in our lifetimes involved in an automobile crash, the odds are much, much, much higher that it will be due to driver error than to technological failure.
I am a programmer, among other things, and so not to be trusted. But that almost means that I am not so foolish as to trust programming and technologies completely. However, from what I've seen and heard and read, I will place my bets on the technology before I will trust any driver, including me... or you!
Live long and prosper. ;-)
complex systems these days are pretty complex...
frankly, i'd put more trust in say the 1968/69-vintage Apollo LEM computer technology - of orders more simple than some present day embedded systems. way back then, people did a really excellent job designing reliable mission critical systems...
sorry, but you potentially strike me as a technology for technology's sake zealot.
have you had the good fortune to have been exposed to human-computer interaction issues related to complex systems?
if so, you know that when automation does too much for the human, people become more passive rather than actively engaged - and people are poor passive monitors! they have a more difficult time accurately maintaining proper situational awareness. they have a difficult time forming and keeping an accurate mental model of what the current technology state is, what it is doing for them, and further, predicting future system states.
you don't necessarily make a system inherently safer by tossing in more technology. typically you end up making it more complex, expensive, less reliable, harder to maintain, and harder to understand and use.
i'll place my money on the better trained, actively engaged driver on every trip.
Honda. Please remain true to fundamentals.
Please no runflats, no laser cruise, no indash DVD-video, no playstation consoles, no multi-option configurable system computers, no sat uplink/downlink LAN interfaces.
Reliable, dependable, safe, affordable, simple people mover technology. KISS.
A dizzying array of ala-cart or bundled options, high tech or medium tech would just cheapen the car.
There is ample evidence that computer-aided driving aids (eg. ABS, stability control, skid control) do improve safety under extreme driving conditions. Many auto insurance companies now offer discounts on the same vehicle if equipped with these options...and those bloodsuckers don't offer discounts unless the numbers solidly prove the case. I'm not talking laser cruise control or DVD players here, I'm talking safety devices.
user777 said it best:
"i'll place my money on the better trained, actively engaged driver on every trip"
No kidding! Problem is, you can't count on the other guy being well trained and actively engaged, and that will never change. So the next time some moron is daydreaming in rushhour traffic and has to slam on his brakes and/or swerve around me, I'll be glad he's got ABS.
But, what the hey, I worked hard on this reply, so...
Note that I did not say nor did I imply "technology for technology's sake." I'll admit my reference to my vocation was perhaps too subtle in showing why I know for certain that no code should be trusted implicitly. I definitely do not write flawless code (and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise! ;-)). In fact, as a certifiable UNIX "cowboy" (double meanings wrt my Texas location intended), my tendency is to get it going fast and fix it on the fly when it breaks (brakes?) later. But then, I don't code anything with a human-life-threatening potential either.
Even when I did support an E911 address database, I believed and still believe that an occasional failure of the information automation could be a good thing if it reminds the E911 operators to never fully trust the address info that pops up on their screens. Some healthy skepticism is warranted in this case, but that skepticism tends to fade over time if the system is never, ever unavailable. That very too-trusting mistake has sent police officers, paramedics and/or fire trucks to the not-yet-updated-in-the-database last address of a few unfortunate callers in years past. Now, before anyone jumps my case, please do notice that I am talking about the portion that automatically displays an address and not the E911 voice connection.
But our friend rodut has not been talking about "laser cruise, ...in-dash DVD-video, ...playstation consoles, ...multi-option configurable system computers, [nor]...sat uplink/downlink LAN interfaces." Neither was I (though their may be value in some of those also).
Rodut did specifically object to anti-skid technology and ABS systems. Both, I have no doubt, are much more reliable than the best drivers out there. Surely, the automated versions will someday experience a provable and possibly fatality-causing failure. But drivers in the United States still do that much more regularly to the tune of 40,000+ traffic deaths every year.
I am simply unconvinced that those two technologies put any of us more at risk. Quite the opposite and until proven otherwise, I am reasonably certain that they have helped keep the highway death numbers almost unchanged as population, total number of vehicles and total number of miles driven have all skyrocketed.
On another note; a new "favorite" Dallas area way to kill oneself vehicularly these last few years (adding to running red lights/stop signs and good old-fashioned excessive speed) seems to be to simply drive around the crossing gates as a commuter train approaches. Unfortunately, a fair number of these people have brought their children with them as they hurried into the after-life. Disgusting.
Which makes me think that an automatic-engine-kill-and-brake-lockup-at-lowered-train-track-cro- - - ssing-gates device might be an excellent technological development! Hmmmmm, maybe I'll offer the idea to TI for free. Now where is their phone number?....
you make some good points and i don't disagree with them.
and, you also demonstrate you are aware of human/computer interaction issues.
my main point was that increasingly complex systems have attributes which remove the driver from the act of driving.
it's true that i mentioned a few technologies that merely detract from and compete with a driver's situational awareness. they don't add safety...they only take away from it. ;(
as for safety related technologies: one can make the argument that ABS could make it harder for a driver to get and maintain proper road condition SA (situation awareness) under some scenarios.
hypothetically, you drive on some slippery road with the conditions near freezing, and come to some stops and the ABS does the breaking finesse for you. you conclude (falsely) the conditions are more favorable / safer than they really are. you come to another intersection and there's a good patch of ice, and well...no amount of break pulsation is going to help...your luck just ran out.
poor drivers may be lulled into believing they are safer in an ABS equipped vehicle and they won't skid, they can drive faster and the car won't get away from them in a panic manuver...
technology can be confusing and/or misleading. for example: "traction control": unless I'm mistaken, on the Honda, it doesn't do anything for you when you're speeds are above 10MPH. It just slows down one of your front wheels when your taking off from a stop so the tires spin at the same speed. by its very name, it may falsely lead some people to believe the traction they have at ANY speed is improved (when it is not). OK, that's more of a training/education issue...time to RTM.
and yes (it was late when I posted) I mentioned some technologies which the thread wasn't discussing...apologies.
if Honda chooses to include alot of entertainment / information mgmt stuff in the car, the driver will likely become more distracted. so i oppose that.
i was suggesting that there's this desire by people to get vehicles which tend to be "feature laiden". IMHO, they are pulling too much of their non-transportation lives into their transportation experience, because the technology is faciliating that...and it shouldn't.
while i believe technologies like ABS can help average and poorly trained drivers, i still believe (and admittedly i could be wrong about it), that a skilled aware driver is the safer bet.
i admittedly need to do some research to see if there is a comparison of ABS used by the common driver vs. a skilled driver and see how performance compares.
nofeer, i don't think the dialog was off topic. the forum topic seems to imply discussion about what might be, what we might want it to be, what's been released about what will be...
my apologies again for wasting the bandwidth.
regards.
I saw a highway surveillance camera video of a German Autobahn driver rounding a corner at over 150 mph, sliding, then rolling several times, before ending up upside down. The amazing thing was that the driver then climbed out and sat down beside the car, essentially unharmed though undoubtedly shaking like a leaf. This was accomplished because he was driving a Mercedes convertible(!?!) that was equipped with a roll over-sensing device that had instantly deployed a hidden roll bar that prevented the driver from leaving a long, nasty smudge on the landscape.
Now, maybe that driver has wrongly concluded that his driving was not really so bad since he walked away. But I'm guessing it took a very long time for those shakes to stop and his driving was probably much improved for some weeks afterward, if not forever. I'm all for him having the chance to reform rather than dying for his errors.
Similarly, I suppose some dense drivers ignore the pulsing they feel in their braking foot when ABS kicks in. They will doubtless pay for that error eventually. But the point is that they will have at least one extra chance to learn.
FWIW, I think you are correct about the Honda "traction control" only functioning under 10MPH. But, if my '95 Civic had been so equipped, it might have been slightly less exciting pulling out onto the damp asphalt trying to join the relentless commuter convoy.
The last thing I'll mention is my disdain for a friend (not a close one) who spent an extra $7,000+ on an MDX by loading it down with every electronic gadget available at the dealer. He apparently did so for the dubious honor of saying he had them. Of course, I question that wisdom anyway, but the more so when I heard he was asking his wife to limit her driving because of fears of using too much gas!?! To each his/her own, as they say....
http://www.handaccessories.com/odyelec02.html
if i'm not mistaken, i think it is also shown in the official Honda Accessories brochure available at the dealership.
I want to quote the post no 390 from the "Toyota Sequoia Owners: Problems & Solutions". That very lucky lady said:
"the VSC/skid control went out on me as I pulled out in traffic (with my two young children) and proceeded to brake on me without my control. I managed to force it off the road, without accident and called my mechanic whom I know his name and number by heart! Nice huh? Was a scrambled computer chip!??"
Guys I was right ... I was hoping that my sick imagination went too far ...
My final conclusions (just for myself) are:
_ technology will make us dumber, but I agree that the dumbest among us would be less dangerous. Smart cars should be sold only to mentally impaired people or people showing dangerous driving skills.
_ any PASSIVE safety device is welcome. Like curtain airbags or the jumping roll bar Dako_Tian talked about, etc.
_ technology MUST NOT have the power to kill us IF defective. For instance anything steering or braking related is critical and better avoid it.
ABS systems should be the end of the game on steering and braking.
If ABS breaks, either I will have regular brakes (almost no risk even for dummies) or I won't have brakes at all (there is some risk there, but I will still have the opportunity to fight for my life by using the hand brake and switching gears 5-4-3-2-1 to lower the speed).
If a system who has the authority to APPLY brakes or steer the car breaks, I doubt I will have the luck the lady in Toyota's post #390 had. I can imagine lots of scenarios where sudden braking or/and steering will be the end of it. I am not sure I am afraid of death, but why die stupidly ?!
Last point: Honda has a good reputation among car enthusiasts. Do you want to put those Civic racers who leave lots of waving skid marks in the middle of the highway in front of the police station in traction control cars ?! This won't work Honda ...
BUYERS WILL COME IF YOU KEEP IT SIMPLE!
I would love to buy a Sequoia, but it is too big and expensive.
I would love to buy an Odyssey with AWD. Not available.
I will buy a Sienna in 2 years to replace my Odyssey if Honda has not made AWD available on the Odyssey.
You can't satisfy everyone.
IMHO, to not offer AWD when their primary competitor does, would not only cost sales today, but tomorrow on other vehicles from those who stray from Honda to get the AWD.
IMHO, if you move a minivan up high enough to offer reasonable AWD while still keeping a true folding third seat (meaning that there is some large portion of cargo space available with the seat folded and not a mountainous protrusion on the floor), then you've pretty much got an SUV no matter what you call it. Ask Subaru about that one wrt their "station wagons"....
matherson: Since the Pilot has one more seat-belted seating position than any of these minivans, I call only assume you are refering to the cargo space behind the third row when you say that the Pilot is "too small." If so, then you are stating your case on more reasonable points. Certainly the only SUV that has such cargo space (akin to the bigger minivans) is the Suburban/Yukon XL twins. With special deals, astute shopping and willpower to avoid the more exotic options, you could get one of those behemoths for around $33,000/$34,000 (respectively) -- 4WD will set you back another couple of grand each. That also gets you a whole lot more quiet, comfort and convenience than any of the minivans offer. Plus it gets you a 8-cylinder engine that will move the thing around using very little more gas than the minivans do either (by virtue of the torque for startups without having to dump all the fuel in at once).
Since I mentioned gas mileage, go browse that topic under the Pilot boards. You'll see that all but the most old-lady-like drivers are getting abysmal mileage on the Pilots -- especially around town. That is because of the aforementioned strains that a 6-cylinder must go through to accelerate a couple tons from a stop. But it is also because the vaunted AWD kicks in every time you do so, pulling down even more of our precious fuel reserves (do we have any reserves left?). I can only suppose that a comparable "minivan" would do no better.
So, we seem to be arguing labels, semantics and trade-offs here. To my eye the market is already offering what you guys are saying you want. The only problem seems to be when it comes time to pay for it. I have the same problem myself. ;-)
My 7 year old was banging her knees against the 2nd row. Fine for a short ride, but that's about it.
Also as you mentioned the space behind the 3rd row is lacking, to put it kindly.
As much as I would rather own a large SUV, the minivan is more practical for my family.
I have little interest in a GM vehicle. Have done that before and been dissapointed every time.
Thanks for the info though.
Our family has been able to struggle by with one vehicle (an extended-cab pickup) since I work from home most of the time and our children are not yet school age. But the time is coming faster than the money is!... ;-)
For me the answer would be because I think the new Sienna design is just about the ugliest I have seen in many years... from any angle. Maybe you forget about that once you are inside, but I haven't been able to get that far! Of course, I'm curmudgeony enough to write off Mazdas for no better reason than their silly-looking "hamburger" logo.... ;-)
Like it very much, but would be happier with an opportunity to buy an AWD Odyssey.
UNless there isn't one, in which case I will have to buy an AWD Sienna.
"if you move a minivan up high enough to offer reasonable AWD while still keeping a true folding third seat (meaning that there is some large portion of cargo space available with the seat folded and not a mountainous protrusion on the floor), then you've pretty much got an SUV no matter what you call it."
Have you seen the Sienna AWD? It has relatively large cargo space with the seat *UP* as well as seat folded! As far as "reasonable AWD", Sienna AWD system (same as RX330) works better than many SUV including MDX's VTM-4, Pilot, CR-V, RAV4 etc.
I can't see the difficulty in putting a AWD system into Odyssey, since it is based on the same chassis as MDX. The developmental cost should be much less than implementing a system from grounds up.
If you take the profile and overlay it on that of most crossover SUVs, you'll find the only real difference is a little bit of length.
"A rose is a rose is a rose...."
"That helps explain why the side-view of the Sienna has those seemingly tiny tires under a huge mass of metal bulging up. They built it like an SUV but stretched the metal lower to call it a minivan."
I have no idea what you are talking about. The 17" tire would fill the wheel well a bit better than the 16" tire shown in your link:
http://www.tundrasolutions.com/photopost/data/602/110_2004_sienna- - _xle_ltd_awd-med.jpg
But how is the side profile different from any other minivan like Odyssey and Caravan? Sienna is built as a minivan from grounds up. It does share some major components with RX330; but it is definitely not a "stretched SUV".
"If you take the profile and overlay it on that of most crossover SUVs, you'll find the only real difference is a little bit of length."
???
Since Sienna looks like another other MiniVan, so you imply that the above is true for all MiniVan?
Anyways, I really don't get your point as interior, seat arrangements, ride height, sliding doors are all key difference between a minivan and SUVs.
Odyssey and MDX are also siblings; but there are still very different.
But then why does the Sienna have the AWD? That is as much an overlap as Honda would have, especially when you consider the smaller Honda lineup compared to Toyota.
"That's why we don't have a 7-Seat Highlander"
Toyota heard you....
2004 Highlander will have 7 seat option with fold flat 3rd row, Vehicle Stability Control, Side guard curtain, Brake Assist and RX330/Sienna's 3.3L engine and 5 speed auto.
I think it would be a perfect minivan if they would make the DVD RES+NAV together from factory and then add real wood trim.
Of course, Honda won't listen to me.
But I think it will sell great.
Have one Ody LX, one EX, one EX+RES+Leather, one EX+NAV+DVD RES+Leather+wood trim.
I think people who want NAV will also want EVERYTHING like DVD RES and REAL wood trim and we would pay the extra $$.
Overall, after looking at the new Sienna XLE Limited and comparing it to the Ody, I still think the Ody is better if it had NAV+DVD RES+Wood trim+side curtain airbags+tire pressure monitor.
I would be crazy enough to trade in my '03 Ody to get the new Ody if it had all these features.
You know after you buy something for a while, you tend to look around and ask yourself if you had made the right decision. I still think the looks of the Ody is better than any minivan out there.
By the way dont you guys think that car magazines and everywhere they should not compare the 03 or 04 odyssey with the 04 quest or 04 sienna they should just compare the sienna and the quest not the odyssey because both the sienna and the quest have been redisingned but the ody hasnt they will but until fall 2004 on Motor Trend Nov 03 they compared the 03 ody EX-L with RES the 04 sienna XLE limited with rear DVD and the 04 quest with rear DVD leather and sky view roof i dont know the name of that trim but the point is that the 3 of them had rear DVD, NAV, leather, and all the goodies and the point of that test was to see if the odyssey could still beat the 04 sienna and the 04 quest but it didnt, the sienna won and of course it did because it has better stuff and its already redisign the honda isnt so they shopuld not compare the ody with the 04 vans they should wait untill the 05 ody is out and then compare to see how the 05 ody beats those other competing vans!
AWD options
Power folding 3rd row seat
I don't think that it is a real selling point- just something there to make it a little more beautiful. Also, I want the NAV but I don't want to be bogged down with the RES, Leather or wood trim. Hence why I bought a 2002 EX cloth instead of a 2002 EX-L NAV. Dealing without the NAV- bought a bunch of maps.