Have a 05 limited CRD. Up till now had no issues with it. Last week the check engine light came on (engine symbol). Today wife took it in to one of the largest dealers in Langhorne PA. The service writer informs the wife that the problem is a glow plug, and that the reason this happened is because i took the engine cover off, and then informs her that the the car will not be ready until sometime next week, and that she does NOT get a loaner for this, however the car is unsafe to drive because the plug could stop working all together and leave her stranded on the highway. Well, she goes to rent a vehicle from a rental agency on the premises, then has a a mechanic take her to the car to get some stuff. The mechanic tells her that the reason this will take so long is because we have an unusual german engine in the Jeep and the glow plug has to come in from GERMANY!!!!!!!!! I call the service writer and he asks me where the engine cover is. I tell him its in the garage and he informs me that that is the reason the glow plug failed because water got into it and shorted it out due to the engine cover not being in place. I told this idiot that he did not have a 16 year old on the other end of the phone and that I would come in after work so he could explain it to me. Wife and I show up after work (just as I promised) and this guy is a TRUE IDIOT!!!!! He actually tells me that my engine is german and that is why this will take so long. I tell him that I want his manger who shows up and gets the short version of the story. Mgr tells me he will get the paperwork and be right back. As he is walking away the service writer tells him (with attitude--I might add) " and we ever hooked them up with a loaner" To finish this off we explain our situation to the Mgr who was very understanding and then wife tells him about the statement the service writer made about a hook up with a loaner. She tells Mgr that she put the rental on HER CREDIT CARD because the service writer would not help. Mgr agreed to have dealership cover our rental. Which was great, but still can't understand why they have an idiot and liar representing the dealership and handing customers who won't bend to everything he tells them. How does this reflect on the dealership??? I'll NEVER go back there.
Steve:(Host) I read the article that you referred to, very informative and correct. Perhaps my DCX Jeep dealer is peddling aftermarket, or perhaps other dealers are getting Italian oil filters real Cheap. Oh well I suppose that in the scheme of things in less than four years most of these New CRD's will be nothing more than a used diesel Liberty, and at less than 1/2 the original price. Personally I pray I out live my payments. Thanks for your input.
moparbad: Oh my gosh! I sure hope to shout that my dealer isn't putting on the wrong darn filter! It just might be, can the filters from a 3.7 fit on the CRD? Thanks for the heads up.
You found one or possibly two if you caught his manager with his pants down. They are everywhere and they move around a lot. This is not the rule but the exception. If you are a decent guy always make friends with the right mechanics or look for employees giving you strange looks when talking to one of the these. Cool down and listen to your gut feeling.
I'm now over my tour of duty and rotating back home. I've survived my year again. 12 months ago I was a newbie and now we seem to have some help from the repo depot.
I kept bringing up the provent issue because of the possibilities between proventers and non-proventers. One we all will be okay. Two we both will have failure. Three one group will fail. I'm covered no provent and dc warranty and dc extended warranty. But if some from our group are proventing and have turbo failure with claim denied by dc - ouch. Our first wave trusted dc and the bell is for all of us even if feelings/emotions run counter.
RV sent me to freightliner. Freightliner sent me to Cummins. Google sent me to honeywell/garrett. They sent me to dealers? I went to regional distributors. Awaiting an answer to question-does garrett want ccv oil to lubricate their turbo?
If anybody has the answer already - let's help the group.
Dave: The turnip truck got lighter when I got off, which seems like just yesterday. To prove how fresh off the truck I am, would you please explain what the heck proventers and non-proventers are? And are they made in the USA or Italy? ... blush. I heard that adding hydrogen and nitro to the diesel fuel will improve mpg to over 300, and speeds of 1,500 mph. However, the cost per mile is about a hundred time more than the current cost of diesel fuel. Only the brave and rich will try these additives! I van assure you that anyone one who tries this will be.......Farout
Sounds like a dealer of long ago in LA, CA who used to say "go see Cal" he had all kinds of gimics to get people to "come on down". His service and honesty went hand in hand. Cal Worthington was the only dealer I know of who had an up charge to "prep for delivery" often this was more than $500 to $1,000. Cal had his Chrysler Dodge dealership taken from him after the Arizona Att. Gen. found his dealership was not in accord with Arizona laws.
We all are open for these kind of hucksters to attempt to sell you a Jeep Liberty with a MB diesel engine. I had at least three salesmen try to tell me the engines were made by MB. That's when I walked out and....Farout
Cal has a dealership in Anchorage near where I used to live; I toyed with buying a car there since I could easily walk or bike home from the service department, but just couldn't stomach the place. As far as I know, he's still starring in his own ads at age 86 (link).
My Liberty CRD Ltd came with the 17-inch chrome-plated factory aluminum wheels. I thought it was a dealer swap until I saw them on the window sticker. I thought they all came with 16's. Anyway, I got Goodyear Wrangler HP 235/65-17 tires with it. Is the Mobil-1 oil that I read about (0w-40, or 5w-40) the same as that sold for gas engines, or is this a diesel-recommended oil? I love the vehicle so far.
What you can observe in the rearview mirror is the diffraction of light from vehicles that follow you. You can also put a kleenex tissue behind the tailpipe and ask someone to gently accelerate. This will collect exhaust particles, if any. With this engine you never know how much effort it is really producing because there is a broad window of injection timing at a given rpm. This is why the a/c compressor cannot be felt during normal driving. I wouldn't worry too much about oil fumes. I think the only way to compare performance change-loss is to accelerate between 2 fixed points and measure the time with a stopwatch. I use a long incline on the motorway leaving the border from Switzerland where the speed limit is 70mph. I usually do this in 4WD/Full time to save my tires
I have a low tire pressure warning icon in the instrument cluster and a "check tire pressure warning system" in the overhead text display. Tire pressure is fine (35 psi) in all five tires. Manual says take it to the dealer.
Anyone had this? Is there a simple fix, i.e., fuse somewhere?
Not that it matters, but I had a posisitve experience from Cal and his dog Spot when we were in Anchorage 6 years ago. I was in the bush and they finances the Ranger for me at a good rate and stored it for 6 months until I could pick it up. No hidden charges or anything.
Just had this done. Check engine light came on while enroute to the dealer. Was told EGR valve needed replaced. Wow! I actually got 12500 miles out of an EGR valve. This will be the first EGR replacement in this vehicle. I have been doing the "Italian tune-ups" as discussed on this site. I guess that's why the EGR has lasted this long. For those that have had EGR failures, is mileage affected? My mileage is between 23-25mpg city and 25-27mpg highway. Once, I got 29mpg on a trip. Would this be considered low? I'm hoping to get improved mileage after EGR replacement. If not, I might be trading for a gasser of another build (foreign).
Cal Worthington Dodge!!!! Now that was a flash from the past for me!! When I was a young lad in the L.A. area (grade school and high school), you could not watch television without seeing Cal and his adds. I had not thought about that in decades!! Old guy's rule!!
I believe the low mpg is due to the syn oil. This oil is so slick it doesn't allow proper ring breakin. Has anyone used non-syn oil and gotten better mpg. I am getting only 21 to 23mpg. I am going to use regular 15-40 on the next oil change. Then switch back to syn after 3000 miles.
Yea, I kind of liked the guy. When I was a pup and had the boob tube on before school, they always had the Grand Ole Opry on and Ernest Tubb would be on there. Cal sort of reminds me of him.
Yea, Leadville is 2 giants steps up from the Alaskan Bush. I was there for 4 years and I DO have some stories ranging from bush flights gone bad, to Natives getting married WITHOUT having to change their last names, to bear stories, to BARE stories in a native steam bath sort of thing. Sure got some memmories....some good some bad. I highly recommend it but not to the faint of heart.
I called Overland Park Jeep in Overland Park KS this am and asked the parts man about the CRD oil filters. I ask where the oil filters were made? He responded why Germany of course! The engine is a MB engine! When I told him no way it was Italian he got indignant. What's so bad is this is Kansas's largest Jeep dealer and sells a good number of CRD's. Ah there is nothing like a well trained parts man at a 5 star dealer. one thing is for sure this parts man was.......Farout
A lot of people think Mercedes and read German made. All he has to do is go out on the lot and look at and CRD sticker and it say country of origin ITALY!!!
Hey, I've won a lot of bets so far with this whole Made in Italy thing. Everyone assumes that because it's DC that it's a Mercedes Diesel and it's made in Germany. So far the free beers have been great when I prove them it's Italian and made by VM Motori not Mercedes. Cheers!
Although, one can't help but wonder what kind of a difference a Mercedes Diesel would make? Things to ponder....
Maybe, since we can't have the easy fix like you and we don't have a huge intercooler, maybe we should have an a/c expert use a diverter and cycle our a/c and cool our intercooler dropping air temps and condensing oil and vapor out of the flow and keeping it out of the intake and draining it somewhere.
Actually, Dave you might be sort of on to something here. The intercooler is the same square area as the radiator and about half as thick so it is pretty good size – maybe not huge. Anyway, the in and out hoses attach at the top of the intercooler leaving most of the unit below the level of the hoses. I don’t know if the intercooler has internal baffles or the air just equilibrates downward where either way there is potential for oil/fuel mist to “condense” and collect in the bottom over a long period of time. Quite a bit could collect there before it becomes a problem. I could see pulling this thing off at 100-150k miles or so to wash/soak it out with an appropriate solvent.
For one thing, oil from the CCV system is NOT needed to lubricate the variable vanes in the turbo. The variable vanes are in the EXHAUST (DRIVE) section of the turbo.
Second, I've seen the intake system of a CRD that had 20K miles on it without any type of CCV filter and using factory 0W40 oil. The inside of the intercooler inlet and outlet hoses are bright red silicon rubber. On this vehicle, they were completely black, liquid oil literally dripping off the inside of both the inlet and outlet hoses. When we loosened the hose clamps, there was so much oil inside them they literally slid off by themselves and left standing oil on the stub tubes of the intercooler. In the bottom elbow of the outlet hose, where it turns up to connect to the intake manifold, there was a puddle of oil nearly a half inch deep. In summary, in 20,000 miles, enough oil had been sucked thru the CCV system to completely coat the intake hose, and fill up the intercooler to the point that it started blowing thru and also coated the inside of the outlet hose and form a half inch deep puddle in the elbow. It was so bad that when my friend showed this to the dealer service dept, they agreed to replace both hoses and flush his intercooler. You can imagine what this oil is probably doing to the valves and EGR mixing valve.
Switching to 5W40 oil only slows the process. I've got 8500 miles on mine, had some type of CCV filter installed since 900 miles (currently using Provent), and my hoses and intercooler are still nice and clean. IMHO, get a Provent or some type of CCV filter installed ASAP, it will save you a lot of grief.
In short, Mobil 1 0W40 isn't, Mobil 1 5W40 is diesel rated.
For the type of engine in the CRD, you want a synthetic oil with an API rating of CI-4 or CI-4 Plus.
Mobil 1 0W40 is only rated CF, not recommended for a road-going direct injection 4 cycle diesel with a closed CCV and EGR system. We're basically talking bulldozer oil. DC was trying to save a few pennies by using the same type oil as they put in their gas engine vehicles.
Mobil 1 5W40, also known as Mobil 1 Truck and SUV, and sold by the gallon as Delvac, is rated CI-4 Plus, meets all the requirements for use in the type of engine in the CRD.
Try www.airnowsupply.com . Complete Provent unit plus a spare filter element was $160, tax and all. Proper name for the filter is Mann and Hummel Provent 200. Filter element is good for 12,000 miles or two years, depending on which retailer you talk to. You can get all the parts, fittings, and hoses to hook it up at your local hardware store, install with just basic hand tools. Light enough you really don't have to mount it, fits rather nice and snug in behind the boost controller on the passenger side of the engine compartment.
My normal daily commute is 20 miles each way. Half of it is 45 mph two lane with several stops, and the other half 55 mph two lane county roads with several stops. Tonight when I pulled into the driveway after 2 weeks commuting on the same tank of fuel, 435 miles and still had better than 1/4 tank left. Averaging somewhere around 26 mpg or better, a 2 or 3 mpg improvement over last tank. What am I doing different now? I'm living by a simple motto -
"Below 55, lock out overdrive."
Diesels have what is known as a Brake Specific Fuel Consumption, or BSFC, curve. It plots how much fuel per HP generated that the engine burns at different RPM's. In other words, it shows you how efficient the engine is at different rpm's.
I found the BSFC curve for the CRD engine on the VM Motori website. Minimum fuel consumption for our engine is at 2000 rpm, with a band of perhaps 1800 to 2200 rpm where it is still close to minimum. Slope of the graph is steep below 1800 rpm, and rather gentle above 2200 rpm, slow rise toward redline at 4000 rpm.
In other words, you don't want to stay below 1900 rpm, you want to stay AT 1900 rpm! That's why some of us, myself included, have seen over 30 mpg on the interstate. At 70 mph in overdrive with stock tires, the engine is turning at 2000 rpm, it's most efficient speed. And when overdrive is locked out, at 45 mph, it's turning at 2000 rpm as well.
I've been locking out overdrive full time in the 45 mph section, and when forced below 55 mph by slow traffic on the rest of my commute. According to my fuel gauge, it's resulted in a quite noticeable increase in mileage.
I believe this is the most cogent and comprehensive post about CRD fuel economy written on this forum. My experience with fuel economy exactly parallels yours. The only thing that I can add, and it’s not much, is that by locking out the overdrive at the speeds you mention you limit the amount of energy wasting shifting of the automatic transmission enhancing fuel economy.
Your might find the following site (Bowling & Grippo) interesting, Retmil46:
You will have to develop BSFC numbers from the curve on the chart for use in the computations. I used the chart that you mention to estimate BSFC numbers and used the above site to calculate CRD mileage before buying a CRD in Mar ’05. My actual results are pretty close to the theoretical calculations obtained.
Neat web site, THANKS!!! says we need 41 hp at 70MPH but only 17 at 50. Would 2000 rpm in 4th gear give better fuel economy than 2000 rpm in 5th because of the air drag?
The graph may have been developed at WOT, but the shape of the graph, 2000 rpm being the most efficient speed, still holds true. From what I've seen on Freightliner big rigs, my CRD, a friend's CRD and Dodge Cummins pickup, etc, the minimum point on the BSFC graph still applies.
I've tried driving it the same way, lugging it in top OD between 55 and 60, and letting it lug at 1700 at 45 to 50 mph. Now that I'm driving it trying to maintain between 1800 to 2200 rpm, my fuel mileage has went up noticeably, to the point that I'm achieving close to steady-state interstate fuel mileage in stop and go 45 to 55 mph driving.
In the 55 mph section, I turn OD back on, but stay below 58 mph so that 5th doesn't kick in. In 4th at 55 mph, it's turning at 1800 to 1900 rpm.
With OD off, 4th and 5th gears are locked out. At 38 mph, it goes into 3rd gear TC lockup, and stays locked up until you drop below 38 mph. I've no doubt this has a good part to play in the increase in fuel mileage.
By way of comparison, a friend in Texas has an '04 Dodge Cummins Quad Cab 4X4 automatic, high pressure common rail version. In an issue of the Turbo Diesel Register, they printed the graphs showing that for his engine minimum BSFC was at 1900 to 2100 rpm. On a 60 mile round trip to Austin, he drove to try and maintain 2100 rpm. This gave him 67 mph and 22 MPG according to his EVIC. When he sped up or dropped below this band, his mileage dropped off to 17 MPG.
We can argue about BSFC, engine rpm, gearing, and speed all day long. The point is, in in-town and city driving, where you're never going to see 55 mph and above, locking out OD does look to give a noticeable increase in fuel mileage.
retmil46: I wonder why DCX and VM Motori say use 0-40? The owners manual says if 0-4 can't be found that 5-40 is ok to use. When I talked to a factory tec he said that the engine was designed for these weight oils. However, he never said that other weight oils could not be used either. Oh well I suppose the most that could happen is for us to be left out in the cold and ...Farout
You can't help but picture a two lane road going up a hill following a CRD doing 45mph (with 10 cars backed up behind) in a 60mph zone. At that point when you consider the other peoples time value, unless the CRD is a Good Neighbor Sam type of guy, He deserves a kick in the rump. The difference in cost per mile in doing 55mph over 65mpg can't be more than 2cents, can it? My time is worth something, unless I am just out on a sight seeing tour. On the 4 lane highways in Missouri 55 means 65 and 70 means 75 + what ever you are willing to risk. No way am I going to go 15mph less than the traffic flow. Because to drive real slow one would be left behind and....Farout
I was responding to it's hard to keep at a slower speed. I had no intention of offending anyone. Perhaps you got up on the wrong side of the bed? We rarely see mean words here, no need to blow an EGR valve. I once read a little thing went like this. Lord, help my words to be sweet and tender; for tomorrow I may have to eat them.When things get mean I get....Farout
Your post inspired me to go pull off my intercooler hoses to check out the oil deposits. After 17K miles, the turbo outlet hose is coated with a thin solid layer of black snot. However, the intercooler outlet hose is still mostly just red hose with some light oil streaking that looks like oil following air turbulence. There is no oil settled in the bend of the intercooler outlet hose. That area is clean red hose.
I think my different result is due to an easy driving style. I started the engine with the turbo side hose off and observed steady light fumes coming out of the hose at an idle. I attached the hose to the intercooler and observed that fumes were nonexistent going out of the other side – just cool air. My conclusion is that the intercooler is indeed collecting the oil/mist and might be pretty snotted up on the inlet side. The air flow seems to be the same going in and going out. I think I will check this every other oil change.
If I understand your question, Whitgallman, you are asking is it better fuel economy to drive at 2000 RPM in 4th gear at 61.6 MPH or 2000 RPM in 5th at 69.7 MPH? My answer is that you are probably better off driving at 1800 RPM in 5th gear at 62.8 MPH. Like Retmil46 says, the fuel consumption curve slopes only slightly upward either direction from 2000 RPM. As you know, diving at 2000 RPM in 4th gear will give you lower wind resistance but you engine will turn more revolutions per mile offsetting some of the gain. Can you keep yours in 4th gear at 2000 RPM? Roughly, I get: 23@80, 25@75, 27@70, 28@65, 30@60 and 32@55. I thought the Bowling and Grippo site was just kind of fun to compare varibles like tire pressure and wind speed.
Good to hear. I'd say an easy driving style might have a good bit to do with it. Also if you've switched over to 5W40 CI-4 rated oil, this slows down the process quite a bit.
On my friend's CRD - they lived in southwest Wyoming when they purchased it, and had to do a lot of long distance high speed interstate driving to get anywhere. In order just to get normal service done, they had to drive 2 1/2 hours each way to Salt Lake City. They purchased it in March last year, and when i helped them move in August it already had close to 10K miles on it. And when i drove down to Texas back in December, it was up to 20K miles. And he was still running factory fill 0W40 oil.
I noticed quite a drop in oil consumption on my vehicle when I switched from 0W40 to Rotella 5W40. Where I noticed a half quart drop with 0W40 over the first 900 miles before I changed it, after going to 5W40 I've went over 3000 miles with virtually no change in oil level. I'm attributing this to CI-4 rated oils being blended with a lower volatility, ie, less of it gets boiled/thrown off as vapor and sucked out the CCV system.
The CI-4 and CI-4 Plus rated oils were developed for direct injection diesels that comply with the '02 EPA regs, ie, closed CCV system and cooled EGR system. A higher soot loading/carrying ability to contend with the EGR, and lower volatility so less oil would get sucked out thru the CCV. The older CF rating is for off-road non-direct injection (pre combustion chamber) older diesels without all the extra EPA hardware. Matter of fact, Cat, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and Mercedes will all but void the engine warranty if you put CF rated oil in one of their current on-road EPA '02 big rig engines. Cat flat out says you will NOT put CF rated oil in one of their on-road engines. I work at the Freightliner Truck Manufacturing Plant in Cleveland NC, and the factory fill on all engines is API rating CI-4. When I mentioned to the Cummins and Detroit Diesel reps that DC was putting a CF rated oil in the CRD, they looked at me like I was speaking in tongues. IMHO, DC used the 0W40 because it could be used in "A" diesel engine and so they wouldn't have to stock another grade of oil for the same model vehicle - in other words they were being cheap. DC's big push of late has been commonality of parts and reducing inventory, and in this case i think the bean counters got carried away.
Agreed. Just because it's a diesel doesn't mean that the laws of physics have been repealed, especially when it comes to uphill grades and wind resistance. One other big factor with these engines (perhaps THE factor) as far as fuel mileage is the quality of fuel itself, but that's another can of worms.
In my case, there's a long uphill grade in the 45 mph section where normal traffic speed is 50 mph. With OD enabled, at 50 mph it's dropped into 4th gear and trying to lug up hill at 1600 to 1700 rpm with tall gearing. With OD enabled, I had two choices - drop down to 45 mph and 3rd gear and have someone riding my rear bumper, or grossly exceed the speed limit on a congested two lane road, to get the engine turning high enough to develop some torque and power. With OD turned off, in 3rd gear lockup, at 50 mph it's turning 2200 rpm, making more power and well up into the torque band, along with more effective gearing, and breezes up the hill with noticeably less throttle. And to top it all off, it's giving me better fuel mileage as well.
But what works for me doesn't work for everyone. Terrain, speed limits, traffic flow, etc, are going to affect how to operate the vehicle for the best fuel mileage and it's going to be different for each of us. When talking about BSFC graphs, peak torque, etc, perhaps we should preface the discussion with "For all things being equal....".
Only other comment I would make is that I would give my eye teeth if DC would put a bloody manual tranny in this thing.
First let me say I am a newbie to this group. I recently ordered a 2006 Liberty CRD and am anxiously awaiting delivery. Also, I have spent 32 years working as an engineer in the Diesel engine and lubricant industry. I am not an expert but am well versed in these areas. With that said, I read with much interest all the posts here in this group. You are all correct to an extent but here is my opinion FWIW. I know, everyone has an opinion just like a certain part of the our anatomy.
Fuel Economy - BSFC curves are generated at WOT and various engine speeds (no load to full load). All Diesel engines have a governor which limits high idle speed and regulates part throttle speed. Under normal driving conditions you are never at WOT for any long period of time so 99% of your time is at part throttle. When was the last time you had your foot to the floor for a long period of time? You can throw the BSFC WOT curve out the window. What BSFC is really telling you is the efficiency of the engine and is expressed as lbs/bhp-hr or g/kW-hr. To calculate fuel consumption, multiply BSFC by actual horsepower required then divide by 7 (approx. lbs per gallon of Diesel fuel) will give you gallons/hour of fuel used. What we need are PART THROTTLE BSFC curves at various RPMs (1800, 2000, etc.) but since we do not work at the engine OEM, these are never published for general consumption. Another tool used by the HD truck/engine OEMs are computer programs to calculate fuel consumption based on load, speed, gearing, tire size, aerodynamics, etc. In simple terms you want to keep the RPMs as low as possible without dropping below the peak torque speed (1800 rpm). Faster driving/engine speeds will require additional power (due mostly to higher wind resistance) and that equates to more fuel used. I was always taught to drive "like you have an egg between your shoe and the go pedal". Accelerate at a moderate steady rate and the automatic transmission will shift at the appropriate time. I admit, a manual transmission in the Liberty would be nice. Big rigs are geared for low engine RPM and high cruise speed. The quality of fuel is also important, the higher the BTU content the better the fuel mileage. An unknown at this time is ULSD that will be marketed later this year. Word is the BTU content will be lower. Also, use a high cetane premium fuel for improved ignition quality. The engine will run smoother and quieter. Number 2 Diesel has higher BTUs than number 1. Any bio blend (B5, B20, etc.) will decrease the BTU content and is dependent on the base fuel (No. 2 or No. 1). The higher the bio portion, the lower the BTU content. Using a multifunctional Diesel fuel additive with cetane improver, detergent, and lubricty will help keep the engine running in a "like new" condition. The major factor in fuel economy is the driver who can effect fuel consumption by 30%. Nuff said.
Engine Oil - CI-4 Plus was developed for low emissions EGR Diesel engines. I believe the CRD has EGR. This oil was developed to neutralize acids from the EGR and improved internal engine deposit control. I do not plan to use anything less (i.e. CD, CE, CF, CG, CH). As for the difference in 0W-40 and 5W-40...you may see a slight decrease in fuel economy with the 5W but only until the oil starts to get warm. Once 0W warms to 5W, they have virtually the same properties and there should be no difference in MPG. I would guess going to a 30 oil would make more improvement in MPG. As for synthetic versus mineral, I say, use a high quality branded mineral based oil (i.e. Rotella T, Delo 400, Delvac 1300) with the correct API classification (CI-4 Plus) and change it regularly, your engine will last just as long as using synthetic. 90% of the big rigs use mineral based oil and exceed 500,000 miles before overhaul. Synthetic engine oils are good to use in cold climates and in high load applications (trailering - over 50% of the time). Synthetic has the biggest benefit in gear oil.
Sorry for the long post. I wish everyone the best of luck with your CRD whatever your driving and oil preference. Remember, proper driving habits and regular maintenance will go a long way in keeping your vehicle running longer and economically.
As far as engine oil, exactly right. Factory fill at Freightliner is 15W40 CI-4 mineral based oil. Reason I switched away from the factory fill on the CRD is that Mobil 1 0W40 is only CF rated, while Mobil 1/Rotella T 5W40 is CI-4 Plus. BTW, factory fill on one of the big rigs is 8 GALLONS. How'd you like to pay for that oil change? :surprise:
I was reading in one of the back issues of the Turbo Diesel Register, concerning the correlation between minimum BSFC and peak torque. On the older 12 valve Cummins engines (pre-electronic), both pretty much lined up at the same RPM, the point of highest volumetric efficiency (VE). But once they added electronics on the 24 valve and then on the HPCR engines, while peak torque stayed in the same spot, the shape of the BSFC curve changed and the minimum point shifted up to a higher rpm. any thoughts/info on this?
Even if the BSFC curve is OTL, as you point out peak torque is still close to the same spot (1800 rpm), and so far in my case, driving to try and keep rpm's close to 1800 or slightly above has made a definite improvement in fuel economy. Curiously enough, the local fuel that has given me the best mileage has been B20 biodiesel. Either they're mixing with a good quality premium diesel and/or the 20% bio is giving a built-in cetane boost.
(just to show off ) my engines at work take 800 gal each to change. They get Mobil 1 15W-50. (they turn 4MW generators at McGuire) I've been studying Eastern #2 ULSD and per the BP diesel fuel engineer guy, it looks like we're going to get API gravity of 38, cetane of 47-48 and BTU content down about 1-1/2% from the S500 we get now. We get CITGO #2 "with muscle" now (used to call it premium) which reads API of 36.4. I'll look for the cetane number on this. I think our CRDs have their timing set up for the higher cetane ULSD that's coming out in October. I think that's the requirement of their EPA certification of the CRD. Seems like "Drawer 10" is for EPA cert on the promise that the new fuel is going to bring the engine into compliance when it comes out. This engine seems to get happy on high cetane fuel, like great mileage when I put a pint of Power Serve in it. (from Flying J truckstop @ SC exit 102) On oil, there may be some aspect of design that needs the oxidation stability of the synthetic, like turbo bearings. I'd be chicken to try a mineral oil except maybe the group II white base stocks in Chevron DELO 400.
I am not sure what oil I will use in my CRD but it will definately be CI-4 Plus oil.
Concerning your comments on the Cummins engine, electronics, variable turbos, 4 valve heads, higher injection pressure, split fuel injections, etc. have done wonders for reshaping BSFC and power curves.
What brand of Diesel fuel do you use? Where are you located? I would guess the B20 uses a high BTU and cetane base fuel with a multifunctional additive package.
I think the bio-diesel has lower BTU per gallon. BP's B20 sure does make my Cummins Dodge run smooth. Look at the Chevron diesel fuel book on post#4048. I think they talk about Bio-Diesel. I'm going with Delvac 1 (Mobil 1 truck & SUV) oil.
Hello all, I haven't signed in lately but I have a question for anyone that has gone thru the problems with the transmission shudder and egr valve problems. I started Libby up on a cold evening leaving work and after about 10 seconds of run time, I put it into drive and pulled away. Well the whole thing shook and came to a stop as it stalled. I restarted while I cursed DC and no more problems. While coming to work driving about 75mph I let off the accelerator and coasted and felt a shudder almost like the engine was starving for fuel which was felt in the steering wheel and front seats. It comes and goes so I can't quite nail the problem down. Also my battery died and over the weekend I needed a jump 4 times. I tested the battery with a load tester and it seemed to be about 550 cold cranking amps and the alternator was down to 12.4 volts with a load applied to it. The oil after 2200 miles is already tar black, no way I would be comfortable going 12,500 miles on it. I have read some recent posts about the Mobil 1 0w-40 being CF rated. I just bought a quart because Libby is a half quart low and the bottle reads CM rated which is higher than CI-4 rated. Right now I have to make my first car payment and already I am not happy with the reliability of my 05 Limited. Hope things get better or I will be car shopping for something else soon. I should have kept my 01 F-250 Powerstroke, at least I got 30,000 miles out of it before I needed a transmission rebuild. Any help with service bulletins/advice will be appreciated. Thanks All for letting me Vent.
i have a problem with all oil companys they went to 3000 mile oil drains in 1960 and stayed there till now they still call for three thousand mile drains but automobile companys are saying 5000 to 7500 somebody is playing games with us and i think it is the oil companys you are right about dellow 400 one of the best petroleum my opinan although i do sell amsoil
The oil tends to turn black quickly in Diesel engines. Without any real specifics, the shudder could be caused by several thinkgs: bad fuel, a plugging fuel filter, erratic shut-off solenoid (could be the cause of low battery), or malfunctioning EGR valve (this would contribute to the black oil). My suggestion is to take it to the dealer.
I have never heard of API CM category oil. API is only at CI-4 and the next category will be CJ-4 and it will not be on the shelves until Fall 2006.
Comments
Wife and I show up after work (just as I promised) and this guy is a TRUE IDIOT!!!!! He actually tells me that my engine is german and that is why this will take so long. I tell him that I want his manger who shows up and gets the short version of the story. Mgr tells me he will get the paperwork and be right back. As he is walking away the service writer tells him (with attitude--I might add) " and we ever hooked them up with a loaner"
To finish this off we explain our situation to the Mgr who was very understanding and then wife tells him about the statement the service writer made about a hook up with a loaner. She tells Mgr that she put the rental on HER CREDIT CARD because the service writer would not help. Mgr agreed to have dealership cover our rental. Which was great, but still can't understand why they have an idiot and liar representing the dealership and handing customers who won't bend to everything he tells them. How does this reflect on the dealership??? I'll NEVER go back there.
Farout
Farout
farout
I kept bringing up the provent issue because of the possibilities between proventers and non-proventers. One we all will be okay. Two we both will have failure. Three one group will fail. I'm covered no provent and dc warranty and dc extended warranty. But if some from our group are proventing and have turbo failure with claim denied by dc - ouch. Our first wave trusted dc and the bell is for all of us even if feelings/emotions run counter.
RV sent me to freightliner. Freightliner sent me to Cummins. Google sent me to honeywell/garrett. They sent me to dealers? I went to regional distributors. Awaiting an answer to question-does garrett want ccv oil to lubricate their turbo?
If anybody has the answer already - let's help the group.
I heard that adding hydrogen and nitro to the diesel fuel will improve mpg to over 300, and speeds of 1,500 mph.
However, the cost per mile is about a hundred time more than the current cost of diesel fuel. Only the brave and rich will try these additives!
I van assure you that anyone one who tries this will be.......Farout
We all are open for these kind of hucksters to attempt to sell you a Jeep Liberty with a MB diesel engine. I had at least three salesmen try to tell me the engines were made by MB. That's when I walked out and....Farout
Question of the day: Where are Diesels Banned? (Strategies for Smart Car Buyers)
Steve, Host
With this engine you never know how much effort it is really producing because there is a broad window of injection timing at a given rpm. This is why the a/c compressor cannot be felt during normal driving.
I wouldn't worry too much about oil fumes. I think the only way to compare performance change-loss is to accelerate between 2 fixed points and measure the time with a stopwatch. I use a long incline on the motorway leaving the border from Switzerland where the speed limit is 70mph. I usually do this in 4WD/Full time to save my tires
Anyone had this? Is there a simple fix, i.e., fuse somewhere?
Thanks,
Jim
06 CRUD
I hear that Cal's son is doing more of the commercials, so I guess Cal is slowing down a bit finally.
Steve, Host
Although, one can't help but wonder what kind of a difference a Mercedes Diesel would make? Things to ponder....
Maybe, since we can't have the easy fix like you and we don't have a huge intercooler, maybe we should have an a/c expert use a diverter and cycle our a/c and cool our intercooler dropping air temps and condensing oil and vapor out of the flow and keeping it out of the intake and draining it somewhere.
Actually, Dave you might be sort of on to something here. The intercooler is the same square area as the radiator and about half as thick so it is pretty good size – maybe not huge. Anyway, the in and out hoses attach at the top of the intercooler leaving most of the unit below the level of the hoses. I don’t know if the intercooler has internal baffles or the air just equilibrates downward where either way there is potential for oil/fuel mist to “condense” and collect in the bottom over a long period of time. Quite a bit could collect there before it becomes a problem. I could see pulling this thing off at 100-150k miles or so to wash/soak it out with an appropriate solvent.
I would say 10-15 grand$$$.
Second, I've seen the intake system of a CRD that had 20K miles on it without any type of CCV filter and using factory 0W40 oil. The inside of the intercooler inlet and outlet hoses are bright red silicon rubber. On this vehicle, they were completely black, liquid oil literally dripping off the inside of both the inlet and outlet hoses. When we loosened the hose clamps, there was so much oil inside them they literally slid off by themselves and left standing oil on the stub tubes of the intercooler. In the bottom elbow of the outlet hose, where it turns up to connect to the intake manifold, there was a puddle of oil nearly a half inch deep. In summary, in 20,000 miles, enough oil had been sucked thru the CCV system to completely coat the intake hose, and fill up the intercooler to the point that it started blowing thru and also coated the inside of the outlet hose and form a half inch deep puddle in the elbow. It was so bad that when my friend showed this to the dealer service dept, they agreed to replace both hoses and flush his intercooler. You can imagine what this oil is probably doing to the valves and EGR mixing valve.
Switching to 5W40 oil only slows the process. I've got 8500 miles on mine, had some type of CCV filter installed since 900 miles (currently using Provent), and my hoses and intercooler are still nice and clean. IMHO, get a Provent or some type of CCV filter installed ASAP, it will save you a lot of grief.
For the type of engine in the CRD, you want a synthetic oil with an API rating of CI-4 or CI-4 Plus.
Mobil 1 0W40 is only rated CF, not recommended for a road-going direct injection 4 cycle diesel with a closed CCV and EGR system. We're basically talking bulldozer oil. DC was trying to save a few pennies by using the same type oil as they put in their gas engine vehicles.
Mobil 1 5W40, also known as Mobil 1 Truck and SUV, and sold by the gallon as Delvac, is rated CI-4 Plus, meets all the requirements for use in the type of engine in the CRD.
"Below 55, lock out overdrive."
Diesels have what is known as a Brake Specific Fuel Consumption, or BSFC, curve. It plots how much fuel per HP generated that the engine burns at different RPM's. In other words, it shows you how efficient the engine is at different rpm's.
I found the BSFC curve for the CRD engine on the VM Motori website. Minimum fuel consumption for our engine is at 2000 rpm, with a band of perhaps 1800 to 2200 rpm where it is still close to minimum. Slope of the graph is steep below 1800 rpm, and rather gentle above 2200 rpm, slow rise toward redline at 4000 rpm.
In other words, you don't want to stay below 1900 rpm, you want to stay AT 1900 rpm! That's why some of us, myself included, have seen over 30 mpg on the interstate. At 70 mph in overdrive with stock tires, the engine is turning at 2000 rpm, it's most efficient speed. And when overdrive is locked out, at 45 mph, it's turning at 2000 rpm as well.
I've been locking out overdrive full time in the 45 mph section, and when forced below 55 mph by slow traffic on the rest of my commute. According to my fuel gauge, it's resulted in a quite noticeable increase in mileage.
Your might find the following site (Bowling & Grippo) interesting, Retmil46:
link title
You will have to develop BSFC numbers from the curve on the chart for use in the computations. I used the chart that you mention to estimate BSFC numbers and used the above site to calculate CRD mileage before buying a CRD in Mar ’05. My actual results are pretty close to the theoretical calculations obtained.
says we need 41 hp at 70MPH but only 17 at 50.
Would 2000 rpm in 4th gear give better fuel economy than 2000 rpm in 5th because of the air drag?
The CRD will get it's best fuel mileage at 1650 RPM and 56 mph. Try it sometime if you can stand it. Personally, I can't.
I've tried driving it the same way, lugging it in top OD between 55 and 60, and letting it lug at 1700 at 45 to 50 mph. Now that I'm driving it trying to maintain between 1800 to 2200 rpm, my fuel mileage has went up noticeably, to the point that I'm achieving close to steady-state interstate fuel mileage in stop and go 45 to 55 mph driving.
In the 55 mph section, I turn OD back on, but stay below 58 mph so that 5th doesn't kick in. In 4th at 55 mph, it's turning at 1800 to 1900 rpm.
With OD off, 4th and 5th gears are locked out. At 38 mph, it goes into 3rd gear TC lockup, and stays locked up until you drop below 38 mph. I've no doubt this has a good part to play in the increase in fuel mileage.
By way of comparison, a friend in Texas has an '04 Dodge Cummins Quad Cab 4X4 automatic, high pressure common rail version. In an issue of the Turbo Diesel Register, they printed the graphs showing that for his engine minimum BSFC was at 1900 to 2100 rpm. On a 60 mile round trip to Austin, he drove to try and maintain 2100 rpm. This gave him 67 mph and 22 MPG according to his EVIC. When he sped up or dropped below this band, his mileage dropped off to 17 MPG.
We can argue about BSFC, engine rpm, gearing, and speed all day long. The point is, in in-town and city driving, where you're never going to see 55 mph and above, locking out OD does look to give a noticeable increase in fuel mileage.
I once read a little thing went like this. Lord, help my words to be sweet and tender; for tomorrow I may have to eat them.When things get mean I get....Farout
Your post inspired me to go pull off my intercooler hoses to check out the oil deposits. After 17K miles, the turbo outlet hose is coated with a thin solid layer of black snot. However, the intercooler outlet hose is still mostly just red hose with some light oil streaking that looks like oil following air turbulence. There is no oil settled in the bend of the intercooler outlet hose. That area is clean red hose.
I think my different result is due to an easy driving style. I started the engine with the turbo side hose off and observed steady light fumes coming out of the hose at an idle. I attached the hose to the intercooler and observed that fumes were nonexistent going out of the other side – just cool air. My conclusion is that the intercooler is indeed collecting the oil/mist and might be pretty snotted up on the inlet side. The air flow seems to be the same going in and going out. I think I will check this every other oil change.
On my friend's CRD - they lived in southwest Wyoming when they purchased it, and had to do a lot of long distance high speed interstate driving to get anywhere. In order just to get normal service done, they had to drive 2 1/2 hours each way to Salt Lake City. They purchased it in March last year, and when i helped them move in August it already had close to 10K miles on it. And when i drove down to Texas back in December, it was up to 20K miles. And he was still running factory fill 0W40 oil.
I noticed quite a drop in oil consumption on my vehicle when I switched from 0W40 to Rotella 5W40. Where I noticed a half quart drop with 0W40 over the first 900 miles before I changed it, after going to 5W40 I've went over 3000 miles with virtually no change in oil level. I'm attributing this to CI-4 rated oils being blended with a lower volatility, ie, less of it gets boiled/thrown off as vapor and sucked out the CCV system.
The CI-4 and CI-4 Plus rated oils were developed for direct injection diesels that comply with the '02 EPA regs, ie, closed CCV system and cooled EGR system. A higher soot loading/carrying ability to contend with the EGR, and lower volatility so less oil would get sucked out thru the CCV. The older CF rating is for off-road non-direct injection (pre combustion chamber) older diesels without all the extra EPA hardware. Matter of fact, Cat, Cummins, Detroit Diesel, and Mercedes will all but void the engine warranty if you put CF rated oil in one of their current on-road EPA '02 big rig engines. Cat flat out says you will NOT put CF rated oil in one of their on-road engines. I work at the Freightliner Truck Manufacturing Plant in Cleveland NC, and the factory fill on all engines is API rating CI-4. When I mentioned to the Cummins and Detroit Diesel reps that DC was putting a CF rated oil in the CRD, they looked at me like I was speaking in tongues. IMHO, DC used the 0W40 because it could be used in "A" diesel engine and so they wouldn't have to stock another grade of oil for the same model vehicle - in other words they were being cheap. DC's big push of late has been commonality of parts and reducing inventory, and in this case i think the bean counters got carried away.
In my case, there's a long uphill grade in the 45 mph section where normal traffic speed is 50 mph. With OD enabled, at 50 mph it's dropped into 4th gear and trying to lug up hill at 1600 to 1700 rpm with tall gearing. With OD enabled, I had two choices - drop down to 45 mph and 3rd gear and have someone riding my rear bumper, or grossly exceed the speed limit on a congested two lane road, to get the engine turning high enough to develop some torque and power. With OD turned off, in 3rd gear lockup, at 50 mph it's turning 2200 rpm, making more power and well up into the torque band, along with more effective gearing, and breezes up the hill with noticeably less throttle. And to top it all off, it's giving me better fuel mileage as well.
But what works for me doesn't work for everyone. Terrain, speed limits, traffic flow, etc, are going to affect how to operate the vehicle for the best fuel mileage and it's going to be different for each of us. When talking about BSFC graphs, peak torque, etc, perhaps we should preface the discussion with "For all things being equal....".
Only other comment I would make is that I would give my eye teeth if DC would put a bloody manual tranny in this thing.
Fuel Economy - BSFC curves are generated at WOT and various engine speeds (no load to full load). All Diesel engines have a governor which limits high idle speed and regulates part throttle speed. Under normal driving conditions you are never at WOT for any long period of time so 99% of your time is at part throttle. When was the last time you had your foot to the floor for a long period of time? You can throw the BSFC WOT curve out the window. What BSFC is really telling you is the efficiency of the engine and is expressed as lbs/bhp-hr or g/kW-hr. To calculate fuel consumption, multiply BSFC by actual horsepower required then divide by 7 (approx. lbs per gallon of Diesel fuel) will give you gallons/hour of fuel used. What we need are PART THROTTLE BSFC curves at various RPMs (1800, 2000, etc.) but since we do not work at the engine OEM, these are never published for general consumption. Another tool used by the HD truck/engine OEMs are computer programs to calculate fuel consumption based on load, speed, gearing, tire size, aerodynamics, etc. In simple terms you want to keep the RPMs as low as possible without dropping below the peak torque speed (1800 rpm). Faster driving/engine speeds will require additional power (due mostly to higher wind resistance) and that equates to more fuel used. I was always taught to drive "like you have an egg between your shoe and the go pedal". Accelerate at a moderate steady rate and the automatic transmission will shift at the appropriate time. I admit, a manual transmission in the Liberty would be nice. Big rigs are geared for low engine RPM and high cruise speed. The quality of fuel is also important, the higher the BTU content the better the fuel mileage. An unknown at this time is ULSD that will be marketed later this year. Word is the BTU content will be lower. Also, use a high cetane premium fuel for improved ignition quality. The engine will run smoother and quieter. Number 2 Diesel has higher BTUs than number 1. Any bio blend (B5, B20, etc.) will decrease the BTU content and is dependent on the base fuel (No. 2 or No. 1). The higher the bio portion, the lower the BTU content. Using a multifunctional Diesel fuel additive with cetane improver, detergent, and lubricty will help keep the engine running in a "like new" condition. The major factor in fuel economy is the driver who can effect fuel consumption by 30%. Nuff said.
Engine Oil - CI-4 Plus was developed for low emissions EGR Diesel engines. I believe the CRD has EGR. This oil was developed to neutralize acids from the EGR and improved internal engine deposit control. I do not plan to use anything less (i.e. CD, CE, CF, CG, CH). As for the difference in 0W-40 and 5W-40...you may see a slight decrease in fuel economy with the 5W but only until the oil starts to get warm. Once 0W warms to 5W, they have virtually the same properties and there should be no difference in MPG. I would guess going to a 30 oil would make more improvement in MPG. As for synthetic versus mineral, I say, use a high quality branded mineral based oil (i.e. Rotella T, Delo 400, Delvac 1300) with the correct API classification (CI-4 Plus) and change it regularly, your engine will last just as long as using synthetic. 90% of the big rigs use mineral based oil and exceed 500,000 miles before overhaul. Synthetic engine oils are good to use in cold climates and in high load applications (trailering - over 50% of the time). Synthetic has the biggest benefit in gear oil.
Sorry for the long post. I wish everyone the best of luck with your CRD whatever your driving and oil preference. Remember, proper driving habits and regular maintenance will go a long way in keeping your vehicle running longer and economically.
I was reading in one of the back issues of the Turbo Diesel Register, concerning the correlation between minimum BSFC and peak torque. On the older 12 valve Cummins engines (pre-electronic), both pretty much lined up at the same RPM, the point of highest volumetric efficiency (VE). But once they added electronics on the 24 valve and then on the HPCR engines, while peak torque stayed in the same spot, the shape of the BSFC curve changed and the minimum point shifted up to a higher rpm. any thoughts/info on this?
Even if the BSFC curve is OTL, as you point out peak torque is still close to the same spot (1800 rpm), and so far in my case, driving to try and keep rpm's close to 1800 or slightly above has made a definite improvement in fuel economy. Curiously enough, the local fuel that has given me the best mileage has been B20 biodiesel. Either they're mixing with a good quality premium diesel and/or the 20% bio is giving a built-in cetane boost.
I've been studying Eastern #2 ULSD and per the BP diesel fuel engineer guy, it looks like we're going to get API gravity of 38, cetane of 47-48 and BTU content down about 1-1/2% from the S500 we get now. We get CITGO #2 "with muscle" now (used to call it premium) which reads API of 36.4. I'll look for the cetane number on this.
I think our CRDs have their timing set up for the higher cetane ULSD that's coming out in October. I think that's the requirement of their EPA certification of the CRD. Seems like "Drawer 10" is for EPA cert on the promise that the new fuel is going to bring the engine into compliance when it comes out. This engine seems to get happy on high cetane fuel, like great mileage when I put a pint of Power Serve in it. (from Flying J truckstop @ SC exit 102)
On oil, there may be some aspect of design that needs the oxidation stability of the synthetic, like turbo bearings. I'd be chicken to try a mineral oil except maybe the group II white base stocks in Chevron DELO 400.
Concerning your comments on the Cummins engine, electronics, variable turbos, 4 valve heads, higher injection pressure, split fuel injections, etc. have done wonders for reshaping BSFC and power curves.
What brand of Diesel fuel do you use? Where are you located? I would guess the B20 uses a high BTU and cetane base fuel with a multifunctional additive package.
Look at the Chevron diesel fuel book on post#4048. I think they talk about Bio-Diesel.
I'm going with Delvac 1 (Mobil 1 truck & SUV) oil.
I have never heard of API CM category oil. API is only at CI-4 and the next category will be CJ-4 and it will not be on the shelves until Fall 2006.