Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

Karen_S · July 2004

The only way to solve this issue is to manually click thru each page to the end of the discussion. I wish there was an easier way, but at this time there isn't. If you have any questions, send me an email.

Karen_S · July 2004

Oh yeah..that works, too...most of the time.

kmclean · July 2004

Lee - This solution worked for me: Go to the next-to-the-last page so that the "Recent Messages" "button" in the shaded "Messages" box is active. Click on "Recent Messages." Save that URL in your Favorites list, and when you click on it, you will be taken to the last page. Note that this URL does not have a message number imbedded in it. This way, if anything, you might have to "back up" a few pages if there has been a lot of activity since your last log-in. Speaking of which, make certain you're logged-in when you set this up.

Cheers,

Ken in Seattle

jchagtdi · July 2004

Don't take a vacation or skip a day..you'll have hours of reading!! I was away without internet last weekend, and when I returned on Tuesday I had 4 pages of posts to catch up on. Keeping pace in this forum is a full time task!

Jeff

phatride01 · July 2004

I was wondering what someone might pay for these options on a new 2.5GT sedan..(non-ltd.)...so please help out by being honest...

2.5 Legacy GT
air filter system; keyless security upgrade; metal pedal pad set; momo shift knob (M/T), rubber mats, short throw shifter, subwoofer/amp, and wheel locks. Cloth interior, dual climate control, etc.

I haggled them to the point where they quoted me $25,980.00. Do you feel that this would be a good deal? I will most likely not be getting dealer financing this time, to keep interest low...so that's the first step.

thanks for any input...

c.p.

njswamplands · July 2004

heck dont skip half a day

kmartin · July 2004

I just directly bookmarked the last page, and when I click on it, my browser always comes up with the "current" last page...whatever it may be.

-KarenM-

kmartin · July 2004

I went out and bought a WSJ this morning to read the review...overall very positive. They did cite the turbo lag and their disappointment over their initial MPG, but most of the rest of the review was quite positive.

I also happened to be in my local Borders Book Store tonight. Motor Trend has a great review (p.54, August issue).

As soon as I find these online I'll add 'em to my links page. (WSJ doesn't allow non-subscribers to view articles on their site...oh, well....you'll all just have to take our word for it, I guess!)

BTW, thanks to all who have shared so many kind words regarding my links page. It's been a labor of love, and I am thrilled so many of you are enjoying it.

-KarenM-
http://members.cox.net/kamartin/2005outbackreviews.html

sduford · July 2004

I have to concir, I found the auto way too slow off the mark. Once you're up to speed and can keep the revs up, then it works great.

The manual is much faster becuase you can get the revs up and the boost on before engaging the clutch.

saedave · July 2004

Perhaps the Legacy will get the H6 next year....the only cure for the problem. If Subaru intends to compete with Audi and VW, they will need to offer the smooth performance of the six. The H6 Outback's performance with the lower center of gravity and much better brakes of the Legacy GT would be a winner. The juvenile hot rod demeanor of the GT won't move Subaru upmarket.

lotsabones · July 2004

Greetings one and all. I have been following the discussion here for a month or so, and have read every page. I test-drove an Outback LLBean today (H6, 5EAT) and was impressed with its quietness, stability, and interior. However, what I really want to try is the GT with the manual transmission. The local dealer here has not had a 2005 GT of any type yet, although they said they could probably get one from another dealer (for their standard markup of $3000 ABOVE MSRP). I said no thanks. They did have three 2.5i Legacy wagons, but the only turbo-engined car on the lot was a Forester XT (2004), along with the usual collection of WRX's and one STi (stickered at $5000 over MSRP). I don't think the '04 Forester will drive quite like the '05 GT, and did not drive that. The next closest Subaru dealer to me is over 100 miles away - each direction. So it looks like I will be heading down to the SF Bay area next week. I have the whole week off, and would like to wrap this up at that time. Any tips on dealers in the bay area? I have received a few quotes (mostly at MSRP), but there do not seem to be a whole lot of GT wagons with the Manual Transmission around.

Thanks in advance
Phil

lotsabones · July 2004

Greetings again. While not exactly new to Subaru's, this next car will be our second. We had a '97 Legacy GT wagon for 4 years, which we eventually gave up because we thought we needed more space, hence the Sport Trac. Now, we found that we don't really need that space, or the weight, or the tugboat driving experience, or the poor gas mileage. What we do need is room for 4, a nice interior, and an engine that can pass anyone, anywhere (lots of rural 2-lane roads around here). I'm currently driving a MINI Cooper S, which I absolutely love - but the kids are of a size now that when they are both in the back, it becomes rather unpleasant very quickly. So more and more, when all four of us are in the car, we have to take my wife's car, and I just don't enjoy driving it. So - obviously - its time for a new car.

Phil

rob_m · July 2004

Phil, either sit back and wait for a GT, or find another dealer. I went to my local dealer expecting to see one or two. They had six! I made it very clear I was just looking, but they were ready to deal. Rob M.

frog · July 2004

It has been posted earlier that the dealer in Santa Cruz is well liked and very fair. You may want to try searching the inventory of dealer webpages and sending a few e-mails before making a long drive. Good luck.......

alpha01 · July 2004

KarenM,

I know that it doesnt change the fact that you cant provide a link to the WSJ review on this site, but I wanted everyone to know that the WSJ Online does allow subscribers to email articles online, even to non-subscibers. For those who really want the article, shoot me an email and I'll do my best to email the WSJ piece through the WSJ site.

Happy Motoring,
alpha

njswamplands · July 2004

very kind of you, thanks for your offer

kens · July 2004

It may, but I'm not sure if the current H6 is going to fit the sporting character of the GT. I think the impression of turbo lag on the GT is heightned by how hard the turbo comes on at around 2500RPM. The H6 is smooth, but doesn't offer quite the low-end grunt one would expect from the additional 0.5L of NA displacement.

I don't believe the GT has any juvenile hot rod demeanor one bit. It's a much more subdued and polished experience compared to a WRX.

Ken

kens · July 2004

In the Bay Area, the three big Subaru dealers are:

Carlsen Subaru (Redwood City):
Pretty large inventory, no-haggle up front pricing. Laid back and friendly dealership. Test drives allowed without salespeople. They are currently trying to keep 05 Legacy model prices higher by not discounting them as much as in the past. I was quoted $500 below MSRP as their standard price. They used to price several hundred over invoice as standard.

Stevens Creek (San Jose):
Large inventory, old-school tactics. Some very high pressure salespeople. My least favorite. They will immediately quote you $2-3K over MSRP. You probably could get them down quite a bit, but you'll have to go through a lot of negotiation.

Santa Cruz Subaru:
Smaller dealership, but 1st rate in service. Very friendly and laid back. Up-front pricing ($1000 over invoice). I'm buying from this dealership.

The best thing to do is call ahead and see if the model you want to test drive is available. Inventory changes quite a bit.

Other dealerships around the Bay Area that I've heard are good:
Marin Subaru (Marin county) and Diablo Subaru (Walnut Creek).

Let me know if you need any other info.

Ken

tsy · July 2004

I have to agree with Ken, I don't think the legacy GT is juvenile at all. Perhaps it's not a 540i or E500, but then again it's not meant to be. Both VW and Audi, as well as Volvo and Saab do well with small displacement turbocharged engines, and I would not call them juvenile either. In fact, having owned a Passat, I enjoyed driving the 1.8T more than the rather subdued V6 or W8 in terms of pure driving enjoyment. It was much lighter on it's feet than the other 2, which were both very nice cars, just different in character. I happen to like the rush of the turbo, and in the Legacy/Outback's case, it also happens to be the faster engine.

Each to their own, but please don't label us a juvenile because of a difference in opinion. (At least not until I mount a 10 ft tall spoiler on the back of my car!) ;-)

tom

tsy · July 2004

Does anyone know if you can add the airfiltration system? Also, does anyone know what the Alarm option really adds? I haven't figured out what it means to have the perimeter alarm. It doesn't seem to do anything very exciting.

tom

legacy191 · July 2004

If you are going to call the GT juvenile, then you have to put the Audi and VW in with it. The only way the H6 can compete is to have more torque on hand, say around 235-240. Then I bet that would raise the price. Then you are playing in TL, G35x, and 330IX territory. and i think thats what Subaru was trying to avoid..

Tony T

dcm61 · July 2004

Don't know about the '05 models but you could add the air filtration to the '00-'04 models. The only thing missing is the filter, everything else is already there. FYI - On the '00-'04 models you have to take the glove compartment out each time you replace the filter. Hopefully they made it easier on the '05 models.

DaveM

ntk1 · July 2004

Just to keep the other guys with a similar problem updated - The engine stutter is getting worse, it is now noticeable during acceleration in 4th and sometimes 5th. In addition, I also get a lumpy (almost mis-fire) type behaviour when at steady cruising in 3rd or 4th at 25 through 45 mph. I have booked the car into the dealer on wednesday - I will give you an update afterwards

Pete

ps - taking the engine to red line did not resolve the issue as it seemed to with someone who had a similar problem and posted earlier

manamal · July 2004

Thinking of a Legacy Wagon. UI really like the GT (haven't tried the 2.5i).

However. I was trying to estimate the 'life-cycle' cost of the GT vs. 2.5i. Here is what I came up with:

initially, $3000 more.

Lifecycle: 150000 miles
Fuel: 19 mpg GT, 22 mpg 2.5i.
$2.00 Regular
$2.20 premium

Total Gallons Cost
6818 13636
7895 17369

Total Extra cost for the GT:
3000+17369-13636=6733

I have not looked at any other differences, but I know tires will be more expensive, and maintaining the GT may be higher.

In addition, there is higher ins costs, and more speeding tickets

.

So, while the GT is nice, is it $ 7000 nicer?

Everyone gets to answer that question them selves.

I have not driven the 2.5i, so I can not give my opinion.

jwats · July 2004

The analysis is flawed because you assume no residual value--GT would always be worth more and probably hold value better. I pay only an additional 10 cents a gallon more for premium--but the point is still valid a GT will cost more-but if your horizon is 150,000 or 10 years and the real premium is less than indicated--it does not amount to much per year. Drive what you like Life is short

manamal · July 2004

That is a good point (about residual). I suspect we are looking at (after 150K miles) of less than $1000 difference.

My driving style emphisizes handling over accelleration. If the 2.5i handles close to the GT, then I would be happy.

dsattler · July 2004

...can be added at any time to the 2005 legacy. FYI, parts are not yet available at dealers.

snowbird · July 2004

Does anyone know if this option is now available at dealers, and if so, what is the part #? My dealer pleads total ignorance!

lumbar · July 2004

Great minds must think alike

I tried a similar analysis with the Outback 2.5i Limited and Outback Turbo Limited.

Clearly, there's a residual value difference that has to be taken into account, but, like you, I suspect it narrows over time. I'm not sure I see any reason that the turbo would hold its value -better- as a percentage of original cost than the base 4 cylinder. More likely, they will both do well on this count.

It's speculation without more info, but I also suspect that the mpg difference will be greater than 3 mpg (closer to 5), depending on one's driving habits. In my area premium is from .15-.20 more costly, tending to the higher number. There's also a matter of insurance costs.

I certainly wouldn't reject the turbo based on these calculations, but it helps to know the "true cost to own" difference if you think the base 4 cyl. might be perfectly adequate for one's needs.

once_for_all · July 2004

but I know the Subaru Gold extended warranties cost more for turboed models, so presumably SOA figures more repairs, or more expensive repairs, for turbo related issues.

John

ateixeira · July 2004

<please turn your sense of humor on>

Your models are severely flawed.

You are overlooking an opportunity cost. Smiles per mile.

Happiness is the real goal, not the cheapest possible car, else we'd all buy certified pre-owned Civics, LOL.

If you do actually buy the base 2.5l, you have to account for deflated ego, and perhaps therapy in the long-term.

You'll also be late for work more often, and this will cost you several promotions. In fact your career will basically stall where it is now.

So, turbo = happiness, less time in therapy, and more promotions occuring sooner in life.

But yes, that happiness will cost you 10 cents more per gallon.

-juice

kens · July 2004

Interesting analysis. To be even more technical, one would need to discount back future expenses (tires and regular maintenance) to present value.

I'm picking up my 05 GT wagon today so I'll inquire about air filtration. I forgot to configure my Legacy with it so I'm going to see if I can add it myself.

Ken

kmartin · July 2004

"Does anyone know if you can add the airfiltration system? Also, does anyone know what the Alarm option really adds? I haven't figured out what it means to have the perimeter alarm. It doesn't seem to do anything very exciting.

tom"

Tom, short answer: yes, you can add both. However, these seem to be quite common factory- or port-installed options, and you may very well find one on the lot with both. Mine actually had both, plus the rear cargo area net (also common, and very handy).

Longer answer :-)

...The air filtration system unit should come with the filter already in place, and these units are quite easy for the dealer to install. The filters are easy to change, too: just remember to change it regularly, just like at home. Also, the filters are specially designed for this system, and you can only get them through Subaru, as far as I know. I am not certain how much it really helps, but since I live in the desert, and I am allergic to dust, this is my second Subie to have it.

The security upgrade is actually the shock sensor. This is also an easy dealer-installable option. Note: this does NOT include the immobilizer (only available on upper end models, and not available on the base model, I am told).

Hope this helps!

-KarenM-
http://members.cox.net/kamartin/2005outbackreviews.html

manamal · July 2004

A better way to handle the 'smiles per mile' factor is to look at what happens when you comprimise on a car. I did that two years ago when I bought my (boring) Camry. Now, I am looking at buying another car.

I grove the 2.5i today, and was dissapointed in the handling. However, if I am pushing 30K, I can also buy a SAAB 9-5 Wagon...and give up the AWD.

Sigh....I will probably stick with my Camry for a while....

saedave · July 2004

The H6 just as it stands outperforms the Audi A4 3.0 quattro. The GT outperforms my Passat W8 wagon.........until you experience the turbo lag in traffic. 0-60 time does not define the VW/Audi ownership experience.( Lets not talk about reliability issues.) Since the GT seems to handle a little better than the A4 it would only take the H6 to cinch the deal. If my W8 wagon were stolen or totalled I would somewhat reluctantly replace it with a Bean. If the H6 were in the GT wagon, I would be driving one today.

rob_m · July 2004

The fence wobbled, but I held on. For the time being.

I drove an Obsidian GT LTD on Saturday. The dealer instructed me to not get any tickets, come back sometime today, and proceeded to point me to a winding back road.

What a ride! Needless to say I was extremely impressed with the car. Definitely well put together, handled nicely, and fast, fast, fast. I was able to run it down the highway, play on exit ramps and back roads. Sport shift was pretty cool.

I am now convinced that this is the only way to go. I know I would not be happy with anything less.

ateixeira · July 2004

manamal: yes! Good point!

If you buy the base model you have to add the price you paid for that car PLUS the price of a turbo model two years from now. ;-)

Sounds like fun, rob. Maybe I'll go by when I feel like borrowing a fast car for a day. LOL

-juice

rob_m · July 2004

juice, I didn't forget to grunt on the corners! LOL

ateixeira · July 2004

You get style points for that. ;-)

-juice

njswamplands · July 2004

i ripped that and created the juice grunt to be played during windows exit

kmartin · July 2004

My parts guru guy says this will not be available to dealers until August.

-KarenM-
http://members.cox.net/kamartin/2005outbackreviews.html

rob_m · July 2004

sweet! lmao.

lmacmil · July 2004

Have you ever owned or driven a car and said "gee, I wish this car wasn't so powerful"? You can't place a value on having enough power when you need or want it. Let's face it, any of today's family sedans are adequate with the 4 cylinder but once you've had some torque at your disposal, you'll never settle for less. $7000 spread over 10 years is nothing. Get the GT if that's what you want.

jf929 · July 2004

How about insurance cost? Is there any difference between these two models?
I agree with your $$ analysis. However, buying a car is not just a $$ decision. Otherwise, everyone will buy Ford Escort.

sopecreek · July 2004

I used to drive volvo 760 turbo. It had 4 speed automatic transmission and 4 cylinder turbo engine with pronounced lag. While it took about 8.5 seconds to 60 mph, I still remember the surge when the turbo kicked in and I enjoyed it a lot. I adapted to living with the lag quickly. When the power is not needed, I was able to save fuel by going easy on the gas pedal trying not to activate the turbo. Turbo lag is not necessarily bad if you can live with it. But if you can't, you may hate it forever.

snowbird · July 2004

Thanks, Karen. I will inquire again in August. Snowbird.

yankee617 · July 2004

Craig,

No. The hitch prices I quoted in Msg 2794 are correct. I'm looking at total cost (including wiring, draw-bar, and shipping) to make it comparable to what I'd get from my Subaru dealer. The prices you are looking at are for the receiver/hitch only...

Yan

c_hunter · July 2004

I got a little closer to purchasing today -- I drove a GT-Ltd wagon (5EAT) and an Outback XT (5MT). I absolutely love the way the GT drives and handles, and the 5EAT continues to impress the heck out of me. I was not as thrilled with the 5-spd MT in the OB XT. It shifted pretty smoothly, but the shifter leaves a lot to be desired (and I doubt shortening the throws will make much difference). I guess I am spoiled by the shifter on my WRX, with the STi linkage and Kartboy bushings. I'd really like to test drive an OB XT with 5EAT, but there are none around.

So I'm leaning towards the GT, but the lower ground clearance scares me a little. I use all the 7.4" or so on my current Outback when going kayaking and skiing, and the 6.1" of the GT could be a problem. In contrast, the 8.4" or so on the new Outbacks looks great, and the car still handles well despite the taller stance.

Craig

kens · July 2004

I took delivery of a 2005 Legacy GT Ltd Wagon 5EAT this afternoon. The vehicle came in with just 10.5 miles on the odo (fresh off the truck)and I was the first customer to lay their hands on it. I arrived at the dealership and there it was detailed, PDIed and ready to go, just sparking under the warm California sun.

I combed over the vehicle inside and out looking for any defects and only found a minor one. The bottom corner of the driver's door was ever so slighlty misaligned so that it was just a hair away from being flush with the rest of the body. It appeared that the original sheetmetal must have come that way since there were no signs of bumping or bending. Most people probably wouldn't have even noticed.

I pointed it out to the dealer and they offered to take it to a local body shop (a reputable one that I've also used too) and have it adjusted. It was just a little tweak and they would guanrantee any work so I agreed to it. Just in case, I did get a statement in writing from the dealer describing the problem and the corrective action. The work was done and it looked great.

With that out of the way, I took her out on a spin. Everything felt great, the vehicle felt amazingly buttoned down. I was sold.

I paid the agreed upon price of $1K over invoice. I also was able to trade in my Forester for above KBB trade-in value for my milage and condition.

It was a melancholy moment as I left my 98 Forester S at the dealer. I actually patted him on the roof rails and thanked him for all the great times. I'm going to miss him quite a bit.

With everything dotted and crossed, I was headed over the Santa Cruz mountains back to the Valley. It was very difficult to keep from reving the engine. I had to constantly tell myself to be gentle. The ride was whisper quiet (compared to my Forester) and the wagon just hugged the twisties on highway 17 with ease. The audio sounded fantastic with the subwoofer option.

What's nice about the 5EAT is that the final drive is geared low enough that I could still cruise at 70mph and be at only 2750RPMs.

So a new chapter in my Subaru onwership has started. I'll post my impressions as the miles add up. Let me know if you need to know anything specific. I'll be combing through the Owner's Manual the next few days.

A few hastily taken pictures are posted over at the Photo Gallery.

Ken

kens · July 2004

Craig,

The lower ground clearnce will take some getting used to. With my Forester I was able to pull up to any parking spot or go up any driveway without fear of bottoming out/scraping.

The OBXT 5EAT performed similarly to that of the GT 5EAT -- I couln't really tell a difference. But the ride and steering feel is very, very different.

Ken

Subaru Legacy/Outback 2005+

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