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Comments
VIP pricing (via IMBA or other Subaru partner) will get you invoice pricing no questions asked.
-Brian
Invoice according to Edmunds: 26084. (includes destination, perhaps that is confusion??)
-juice
Knowledge shared is power squared.
There are some small regional incentives, I think up to $750, but I still think that's a good deal.
-juice
Also, I live a long way from any dealership, and I can't find a XS 5-speed to test. I trust that they are more responsive than than the sluggish automatics. True?
And why the hell did Subaru choose to make the XT 5-speed without an available moonroof? The bias to automatics is bad enough in this country without Subaru adding to it.
To answer your question, yes, the 5 speed is more responsive, with either tranny. More ratios and more closely spaced.
I think the XS is perfectly adequate until you drive the XT, then anything seems slow. XS owners get anywhere from 22-26 mpg on average, for the XT it's more like 18-22. So yeah, it'll cost you about 4mpg and that premium fuel by the way.
Still, it adds up to $150 per year more for gas, or $12.50 per month. What price can you put on happiness? ;-)
-juice
5 speeds on the XS, 5 on the XT. More ratios?
Also, the XT 5-speed ratios are wider than those on the X/XS, not closer. First is the same on both (3.45). The X/XS has a 0.780 top, whereas the XT has a taller 0.738 top. Ergo, if close versus wide is defined as the span from 1st to top (as is customary), the XT gearbox is wider.
This mainly manifests itself in the very wide 78% gap between the XT's 1st and 2nd, versus the smaller (closer) 68% gap on the X/XS.
One other thing that I can't figure out. On the Edmund's "True cost to own" feature, it says that maintenance on the XS in year 4 is expected to be $1800 (as compared to under $1000 for the XT). I like it because it helps makes my case in justifying the XT to myself. But what does it mean and is it accurate?
OK, I'm a moron. Wider gear ratios?
Ideally I'd like to buy from a local dealer who has a really good service department. Any recommendations?
Wider ratios can either mean a larger total span separating bottom (1st) from top (5th), or can mean a wider step between one gear and the next one in sequence. Closer/narrower ratios mean the opposite.
For instance: The Forester XT shares the same ratios as the WRX. The total span between 1st and 5th is wider than on the regular Forester gearbox. Most of the increase is found between 1st and 2nd, which (on the XT and WRX) is wider than most other high-performance automotive transmissions I can think of. Most owners don't seem to mind this; I find it awkward. The XT's first gear is very low, redlining at barely over 30mph - almost unheard-of in a car with this much performance.
As for spacing, I'd be referring to the gears you would shift to while in motion, so 2-3-4 mostly. I think those are well spaced relative to each other.
Overall I thought the clutch was smooth and shifting was a joy, at least it didn't get in the way of the engine's phenomenal performance. The auto XT I drove had a tranny that did, IMO, reduce the performance. Caveat - it was not broken in, the tranny could still learn and improve. But it hesitated, and even in-gear acceleration didn't thrust you into your seat like the manual did.
Canadian models would have KM/hour and would not be covered under warranty, so I'd pass. Subies aren't cheap there, either.
-juice
Yeah, the Canadian option wasn't all that realistic. So, does anyone know if Subaru has any intention of changing this "moonroof/leather available only with automatic" bias?. The dealer says that he can have leather installed at $1500 extra, but I don't care about it THAT much. Frankly, the way things are going, I might not even be able to find a manual in five years! Better make the right choice now.
Any ideas about the maintenance costs in Year 4?
Finally, since I am about 75 miles from each of three different dealers, would I be better off doing an internet search for pricing/availability? Is carsdirect.com a reputable middle man? Any other such operations? (I live in upstate NY)
I just bought an XT from Rancho Subaru on Clairemont Mesa. So far, they've been a nightmare for service and they delivered a dirty car.
I read on another forum that Irvine Subaru is good (although far away). The Internet department at Norm Reeves Subaru and Bob Baker Subaru were both very responsive. Personally, I wished I used them instead.
Good luck.
Stuart
Thanks for the info. Incidentally Rancho Subaru was the dealership we visited yesterday. While on the back lot looking for an XT to test drive, I spotted one whose right front tire was completely flat! Later on the test drive the kid encouraged me to "really try and redline it going through this curve." After hearing your story I'm really glad I just walked away. I'll shoot an email off to Bob Baker even though his dealership has a stupid slogan. I'll let you know if it really *is* nice to be nice at Bob Baker.
regards,
Sep
I have found that costs vary widely. 60k service can cost $300 or $700, depending on where you go.
-juice
I bought my '03 Forester XS from Bob Baker Subaru in El Cajon in October 2002. Got lazy and purchased it through the Costco Auto Program. Price at that time was fixed at $500 over factory invoice. I dealt only with the fleet sales manager, primarily via phone and fax. Didn't meet him until I went to the dealership to sign the papers and pick up the Forester. It was the most positive, stress-free, auto purchase I've experienced.
I only recently learned that Rancho Auto Group acquired Balboa Auto Center. The first notice I had that something was up was after I logged in to mysubauru.com and noticed that Balboa Subaru was no longer listed among the dealers. The reports I've read about Rancho Subaru are much different than what I experienced at Balboa Subaru. I bought my wife's '01 Forester S from Balboa Subaru and paid $376 over factory invoice after haggling with the salesman. Their service department did well the two times we took the car in for regular maintenance. I hope Rancho doesn't scare off any more Subaru owners or potential buyers.
Cheers,
Lowell
If you can't do at least an invoice deal, now, you're not really trying! Also, if you get the CHASE SUBARU credit card you'll get 3% off all your card spending, getting "Subaru Bucks" for Subaru service/parts/etc. This should easily make up the difference in gas costs between XT and lesser Foresters. I just got $500 in "Suby Bucks" for some bonds I bought online..... They are good until Jan. 2008. Better than a Warranty extension !!!!
I have absolutely no regrets with my AT XT. AND I'm "only" getting 18-19 mpg in my mostly city driving.... I KNEW I'd be spending a few hundred bucks more a year with XT and, going into it with that knowledge, does not lead to disappointment -- IF you want the fun and performance that you get with XT. It's like why I buy leather seating. I'm going to be sitting in that seat for many many years (I keep cars 10+ years). I wouldn't buy a cheap chair for my living room, so why should I "suffer" in my car. The extra money, averaged over a 10+ year period doesn't amount to much at all (and even less when you get more for the car when you sell one that doesn't have ratty worn cloth seating). The leather seats in the 12 year old Explorer I just sold looked like new ones!
The Chase card is great, I gotta apply. The dealer let us put $3000 on credit when we bought the Legacy, so that would have been $90 right there. That would cover the first four oil changes already.
-juice
Cheers,
Lowell
Unfortunately it sounds like an entirely different dealership from the one you experienced. I knew that a Forester was the right car for me though so Rancho didn't succeed in scaring me off entirely. I used the car buying program that my credit union offered. I'm sure I could have haggled a slightly lower price but the price they came back with was fair and since I picked up my car at the credit union this afternoon, I didn't need to set foot in the dealership. At this point in my life I've begun to place a greater premium on my time and the couple hundred that I could have negotiated down wasn't worth the hassle.
cheers,
Sep
I'm wondering also if all these prices people keep quoting on this list as their our of door price include taxes, processing, etc.?
Also, has anyone heard that black is a harder color to resell?
Thanks-any input would be much appreciated!
-ninster
Usually, in my experience, out the door quotes by posters here don't include taxes and frequently don't include "processing fees" (i.e., additional dealer profit), which can be a hefty add-on in No. Va.
Black tends to be a color that polarizes opinions.
Prices quoted are almost always based off the invoice plus options and destination fee. Taxes, tag and title fees vary too widely from state to state (or even county to county) to be of any use for comparison purposes. The same is true for dealer processing fees although you should count them as part of the dealer's profit margin and adjust your offering price accordingly.
No I haven't heard that black is a harder color to resell (although it's certainly harder to keep clean!). Edmunds' used car price calculator does take color into account and it varies by area so you can check and see if black is a plus, a minus or a wash in your area.
-Frank P.
My 5-speed XT, including two Premium Packages plus the column-mount boost gauge plus $100 over dealer invoice, cost $23,973. All I had to add was Oregon's license fee, about $30 or so. There were no additional taxes or phony document-processing fees. That latter item is a tacked-on profit item that I would not tolerate from any car dealer, anywhere.
-Frank P.
<Contemplating a move to Oregon or New Hampshire>
-Frank P.
Is Connecticut "New England"? I'm still trying to warm up from four winters at New London 35 years ago.
Why yes it is. Although I dare say your present weather isn't much better! Not to get technical but I would have thought you were in Groton?
-Frank P.
anyone have any past experiences/suggestions regarding getting extended warranty outside of the dealership? seems like a good bit of money can be saved, just trying to make sure these internet warranty sellers are legit. looked at "warranty direct" website....if anyone has purchased extended warranties or atleast researched them and have advice, please let me know. thanks!
-Frank P.
yup - can't pump my own gas although when it is 15 F degrees outside w/a nice windchill bringing it below 0 - sorta nice to sit in my car will some kid does it for me (like i did when i was 16 for a bit). all that for 1.45/gal current rate for 87 oct regular.
oh yeah - and yup - our politicians in nj also suck. we couldn't grasp the concept of GRIP in the last election (get rid of incumbant politicians) hey swampy - what dealer will you use for service?
I have no quarrel with people who'd rather have it done for them. My problem is, what business is it of lawmakers to make it illegal for me to pump my own if that is my preference? Answer: None.
Let the market decide! If there are sufficient numbers of people who willingly pay a few cents extra to patronize a fully-staffed station, then you can be sure operators will meet that demand. On the other hand, we ought not all be compelled to sit in our cars and wait, wait, wait interminably while some scowling dropout who will never understand the concept of multitasking shuffles slowly from one car to another. Can some of these people possibly move any more slowly, or be any more surly?
Lest anyone think that's an attack on every gas pump jockey, I spent my first 10 working years (from age 9 to 19) pumping gas in family-owned stations. We greeted every customer with wide smiles, we always moved at a fast run from car to car and between car and cash register, we never asked "would you like your oil and water checked" - we automatically did it, and if anyone ever failed more than once to provide that level of enthusiastic service, my old man would send him out to find another job.
How times change. Every single time an effort has been mounted to repeal Oregon's idiotic can't-pump-your-own law, the anti-self-serve people rise up and defeat it. Ridiculous.
-Frank P.
full service gas prices in NJ are lower than any state around with self-service.
property taxes are very high but like in most towns pay for the local schools ( cheaper than paying for a private school plus we get a tax deduction for prop taxes ). some great schools in nj.
i got a killer home on a couple of acres for the same price i would get a postage size lot in los angeles.
This has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a station is self-serve or full-serve. It is impossible to provide full-serve without incurring additional labor costs, and those costs are paid by customers - there is no free lunch. The price advantage to which full-serve customers often refer is due entirely to differences in state fuel tax rates. If you're in a high-tax state, your fuel will cost more even if it's self-serve. If you're in a low-tax state, your fuel will be cheaper even if it's full-serve.
1. 03 forester xs w/pp
2. 95 chrysler cirrus
both w/collision (500 deduct i believe) and comprehensive (100 deduct which i just used to replace windshield in chrysler) and the usual liability stuff. think i did not check the 'i'll limit how much i sue for box' either - can't remember. (this incase some moron smears me across the road). this is with USAA (had our in here via wife who's dad was career USA - highly recommend them if you can get them they even refunded us like 175 usd due to 'good returns' or something like that in their performance) i have no idea honestly how that stacks up against similar car/driver situations. 2 drivers (me/wife) ages 33.