Lexus RX 400h and 450h

john1701a · February 2004

Actually, the hybrid won't even have a tranny.

All the HSD design has inside is a power-split device. No gears. No torque-converter. Always engaged.

JOHN

igiban · February 2004

In its own league I guess. Now we just have to see if the HSD presents its own set of problems on an SUV...

ceric · February 2004

If an Akinson cycle engine is used instead, then I can understand why 400h could get 31mpg. By the way, I just heard from Nissan board that the CVT on Murano is a pain in the ?ss according to a service manager of Nissan. Let us hope the one used by Toyota is better.

ceric · February 2004

I hope everyone read the following article from MSNBC. Things you should be aware of before making purchase decision. I am not trying to bad mouth 400h. As I have said, I am very interested in ordering it. Just that people need to have a reality check. Don't be fooled by the 60/51mpg of Prius or the 36/31mpg of 400h. You are not likely to get it. I know I won't. But, it is the future. And, I praise Toyota for taking the lead.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3540844/
by a MSNBC reporter on 04 Prius.

P.S. If this post get deleted by the HOST, I will post a summary later.

usbseawolf2000 · February 2004

HSD design in Prius and RX 400h has a very different CVT transmission than Nissan and Honda. Nissan and Honda CVT uses belt, pulley, and cones to shift continuously mechanically.

HSD ECVT works fundamentally different. In fact, there is no transmission in HSD. CVT function is achieved by cleverly engaging ICE, Electric Motor, and Wheel in a planetary gear set (about the size of a coke can). Planetary gear set can combine power from any two sources and output to the third source. At a given ICE RPM, increasing Electric Motor RPM would increase the Wheel speed. At a given speed (Constant wheel rotation), ICE RPM can be adjusted by changing the Electric Motor RPM, thus, achieving CVT functionality electronically.

Planetary gear can also split power from one source onto the other two sources. ICE power can be split into the Wheels and Electric Motor (aka electric generator). Therefore, you are driving the car and charging the battery at the same time. This enables Prius/400h to take advantage of ICE "sweet spot" when you accelerate the engine RPM close to the "sweet spot". In that situation, the computer might put the ICE to the most efficient RPM and charge the battery. Mild hybrid such as Honda Civic can only route the power from the ICE to the Wheel and back to the battery through regenerative braking.

ECVT is also responsible for improving fuel economy and performance. You can take a look at the acceleration sensation curve from Toyota compared with Camry 2.4L Auto tranny (Third graph from top).
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/ths2/output.html

*note - From the graph, Current Prius is the classic Prius and THS II is the 2004 Prius.

lok888 · February 2004

ceric - Good point! I love to see more discussion on the RX400h. But I am not interested to order on, maybe my friend want to trade his '00 RX300. We need to figure it out the true cost to own and how long will this pay for itself. Like I mentioned before, dealers here in MA are taking order for December 2004 or January 2005 delivery. There are already 30+ people on the list at one local Lexus dealer even there is little information on this car. Actually, Toyota already has several hybird vehicles (in addition to Prius) in JDM. The RX, Highlander, Camry and Sienna will be their next project.

mytythor - Hang on to your RX300 for another year or more if you (or your wife) really want the RX400h. I personally love the RX330 much. The fully loaded one probably cost you around $43K. For a new one (RX400h), I am sure the $4K premium will be true for RX400h. For an old one (RX400h), it will take a year or two to see them in the market, maybe dealer's demos. I have a feeling Toyota will not make as many as of this (RX400h) to meet the demand. Just look at Toyota Prius with 7+ month wait and the '04 Toyota Sienna.

igiban · February 2004

Any expert can share what you think maintenance cost for 400h would be vs. the 330? Well for one thing there's no tranny fluid to change but I am sure there're things needed just for 400h as well. Maybe Prius or CivicH can be good examples?

Kirstie_H · February 2004

ceric et al - you're not going to get a post deleted for linking to a news story on another site! What we don't allow is 1) linking to a site that provides automotive message boards, or 2) posting large portions of copyrighted material from another site in Town Hall. Linking to stories is fine. Thanks!

wco81 · February 2004

I assume some of the people here interested in hybrid SUVs are driven in part by the perception of the safety of SUVs. While gaining the benefits of lower emissions and fuel efficiency from hybrid technology, of course.

But looks like SUVs aren't that safe after all:

http://www.tnr.com/easterbrook.mhtml?pid=1334

http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html

usbseawolf2000 · February 2004

> Any expert can share what you think maintenance cost for 400h would be vs. the 330? Well for one thing there's no tranny fluid to change but I am sure there're things needed just for 400h as well

There is an inverter fluid to change. It is like changing coolant, according to John1701a. Toyota recommends the same oil change period as traditional cars even though ICE is used less often. AC brushless motor and battery is also maintenance free.

HSD is mechanically simpler than traditional cars by design. It should be more reliable but we do not have enough data to prove it yet. (Do we?)

Dennis

mfullmer · February 2004

You assume wrong wco81. There is nothing posted here about SUVs being "safer" than anything else. This is about hybrid technology being brought to the Luxury/SUV segment.

ALL vehicles are unsafe and ALL vehicles are safe in any given circumstance.

It's quite easy to paste links to left-wing, SUV-hating publications but here is not the place to bring your one-sided view.

wco81 · February 2004

New Yorker is left-wing?

The article isn't anti-SUV. It just points out some popular conceptions about being in a bigger vehicle, high up, and whether that really equates to safety.

I am interested in the RX400H and the HL Hybrids. I'd also believed that being in a larger, heavier vehicle, particularly with all the safety features like side curtain airbags, would make SUV occupants safer in a crash.

But the New Yorker piece points out that SUVs are more likely to be involved in crashes than smaller more nimble vehicles.

For the record, I hope Toyota delivers everything they promise wrt to their hybrid SUVs.

mfullmer · February 2004

The topic of Luxury/SUV Hybrids has, at this point, only two "SUVS" to talk about - that is the Ford Escape and the Lexus RX. These articles are talking about "Light Truck based SUVS" and "Menacing Looking" SUVS.

The SUVs that are coming out with Hybrid power are small to mid-sized SUVs which are not included in the study. (The mid-sized Lexus is CAR based, not truck.)

You ASSUMATION is what I was referring to. Why would assume people talking about Luxury Cars and SUVs with Hybrid power think that SUVs are safer than anything else?

Kirstie_H · February 2004

We're focusing here on the new and upcoming hybrids, and speculating about which models might be desirable as hybrids. What we're not going to do is re-hash any of the pro- or anti-SUV debates that are taking place in other discussions. Let's try and stick to the hybrids. Thanks!

mfullmer · February 2004

Has anyone any information on Hybrid technology coming to a Full Size Luxury vehicle ( ie: LS430 ) or a Full Size SUV (ie: Tahoe or LX470 ). Now any of those are ones I would buy!

lok888 · February 2004

Nothing I read about the full-size hybrid SUV. The 2005 Ford Escape hybrid is coming out in this fall. And the Toyota Highlander hybrid will be here in 2005 follow by the Lexus RX400h in late 2004 or early 2005. Honda is working a hybrid version of the CR-V.

Kirstie_H · February 2004

My guess is that Honda is moving upward in testing the market for hybrid vehicles. They started with the tiny Insight, then the Civic. Now we've got info on the hybrid Accord and hybrid CR-V. If the market responds well to these vehicles, there's no reason they shouldn't move on to an Avalon and beyond.

mfullmer · February 2004

Avalon is Toyota.

Kirstie_H · February 2004

Um... yeah

Sorry, I'm in the member help chat and lost the plot there for a minute. Guess there's nowhere else for Honda to go for a hybrid sedan, unless they create a new model.

igiban · February 2004

Honda is indeed planning a hybrid Accord late the year, but I don't think they 'can move it up' to Avalon. That does not mean they can't move up to their Pilot! My guess is that they (Honda/Toyota) want to move the hybrid to midsize cars (incl. RX) and see that succeed first b4 jumping to the big cars. Makes sense to me.

wco81 · February 2004

A TL Hybrid would be cool, if Honda needed ideas on where to go next with hybrids.

Firebird_EOU · February 2004

phone and also when is Lexus going to enable nav address entering while the vehicle is moving? At least use the smart weight sensor on passenger seat to enable this. Right now RX330 is $1k over invoice if 400H comes out at MSRP that's a $7k difference (includes the $3k premium expected for 400h over rx330)

simon_tx · February 2004

I think it makes sense to put hte hybrids in larger vehicles - the price difference for hybrid system will be a smaller percentage of the cost of the vehicle and the potential savings for fuel is greater.

Plus, the more vehicles that get hybrid will drive the price of the systems dwon.

However, I think any auto maker who can come up with a minivan or comparabe family vehicle that is really safe and gets very good gas mileage will be way out in front of the others.

The Highlander is pretty close to that - it carries the SUV badge, but is really a tall car, like most minvians now.

Rreally, the future of hybrids depends more on lawmakers than anything else. If they gets some guts and push automakers to improve fuel economy - hybrids will increase market share. If they keep bowing to special interests then soon you will find only a couple Japanese automakers making hybrids

ceric · February 2004

Hi, Simon,
In fact, only recently Toyota made some break through to improve their electric motor to spin upto 12,000rpm (compared with 6,000rpm in Prius) to generate enough power for using in larger vehicle reliably. It takes some time for the system to be developed for using in even larger vehicle, but given time, it will happen, no doubt.

Current, 3 states are giving hybrid vehicles the right to use car pool lanes. IMHO, this is the best incentive for people (especial in CA) to buy hybrids than any sorts of monetary or tax break incentives. One proposal is being reviewed in the CA, but it seems like similar proposals in other states are being defeated. Strong lobbying from special interests are suspected, of course.

usbseawolf2000 · February 2004

4WD-i Minivan, Estima, has been available in Japan since 2001! Considering I started to look at hybrid in the late 2003, it makes me wonder where I have been. ;-) 400h and HH 4WD-i technology will be directly coming from Estima. It gets about 45 mpg, as Toyota claimed. I believe Estima used the first generation of HSD with I4 2.4L engine. 400h and HH will have the 2nd generation HSD with V6 so, they should be more robust.

A picture of Estima Hybrid:
http://www.businesswire.com/photowire/pw.102401/bb1.jpg

Link to Toyota Environment page about Estima:
http://www.toyota.com/about/environment/technology/minivan.html

Dennis

lok888 · February 2004

I have to add the Toyota Alphard (in JDM) as another 4WD hybrid vehicle. This minivan is similar to Estima (a redesigned Previa with less egg shape) in Japan. However, it is still too expensive to buy. With the current exchange rate, the Estima hybrid is about USD$30K plus options while they can buy an non-hybrid for USD$24K. We have to pay for the clean air.

Question - From what I read, hybrid vehicles tend to get more gas mileage in city's stop and go traffic. So are we only save commute time but not gas when cruising the car pool lanes?

usbseawolf2000 · February 2004

408hp 4WD, 0-60 in 4 secs and 220 MPG!!

http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_cod- - e=autoshows&loc_code=&content_code=04700872

Another example of hybrid advantage by escaping traditional ICE only trade-off boundry. This car is tuned for maximum performance using exotic materials but using HSD (3.3L V6) that will be used in RX400h.

BTW, I am open to the possibility of marketing hype.

Dennis
NYCLP4

usbseawolf2000 · February 2004

Autoweek probably has a typo. Another site said 700 kms with 52 liters gasoline. That comes out to 31.7 MPG. It is still amazing.

Dennis
NYCLP4

newcars · March 2004

I know this may be a dumb question but how safe are the hybrids?

I am very interested in the Lexus 400h but I wonder about any safety and reliability issues. For example, in a crash, would the batteries leak and/or explode and/or charge any metal in the car, shocking anyone (e.g. me, my family, resue workers, etc.) who would touch it?

Again, a dumb question but I want to know before I buy and possibly put my family at risk.

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

Not a dumb question at all.

Hybrid Synergy Drive (HSD) is mechanically simpler than a traditional car. There is no transmission in HSD. The electric motor's variable speed virtue eliminated the need for a mechanical transmission. Engine starter spins the engine 10 times faster(up to 1,000RPM) and ignite fuel to improve reliability. When the engine shuts off, an electric motor gently slows the pistons down and park them. Electric motors are maintenance free also. Therefore, HSD should be more reliable.

As for safety, when air bags deploy, the system should cut off electricity so the wires are safe to handle.

201.6 Volt Nimh battery explosion is not likely since NiMH batteries have pressure relief seals that will open if the pressure inside the battery becomes too high.

As for battery leaking, all 168 Nimh cells are packaged in a metal housing. Even if it leak out of it, there is no acid like in lead acid battery. There are Nickel and Metal Hydride which are safe to recycle.

Dennis

lok888 · March 2004

Good info. I just read an article from the National Motorists Association (www.motorists.com) about the pros and cons for hybrid vehicles. They got quoted by Toyota/Lexus that the replacement cost of the battery pack might cost as much as $4000. It is like 80 times more than your $50 battery from Sears. But experts project the cost will cost $1000 or less when the time the original battery pack need to replaced in 7+ years due to the mass production. No one know for sure the price of hybrid battery pack will go down that much. The Edmunds' true cost to own figures only showed the cost for the first five years of the ownership. I guess we need to wait few more years for a long term report for those '00 Honda Insight or '01 Toyota Prius.

newcars · March 2004

Thanks for your reply, usbseawolf2000. I feel much better about getting a hybrid SUV now.

Just one more question though. From my computer days, I know that NiMH batteries have a "memory" problem: where after time they no longer hold as much of a charge as they did when new. What prevents the NiMH batteries in hybrid cars from developing a "memory"?

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

newcars,

"From my computer days, I know that NiMH batteries have a "memory" problem: where after time they no longer hold as much of a charge as they did when new. What prevents the NiMH batteries in hybrid cars from developing a "memory"?"

NiMH battery in the laptops or AA rechargables had about 500-700 cycles(deep cycle) before the battery drops down to 80% of it's original capacity. If your new laptop lasted 2 hours per charge, now, it'll last about 1.5 hours. BTW, NiCD rechargables batteries has much worse memory effect problem. Their capacity is about half to begin with.

NiMH battery in the Prius has about 10,000 pulse cycles before the capacity drops down to 80%. HSD hybrid electric cars do not totally discharge the battery before it recharges. The behavior of HSD battery usage is with minor discharge/recharge cycles. This further extends the number of cycles.

HSD uses pulse charging technology which condition the battery during the period of charging. That is how it's panasonic battery achieved 10,000 pulse cycles.

Panasonic hybrid electric battery's life expectancy is 150k to 200k miles. I believe it will still have 80% of it's original capacity after that.

Dennis

sorter · March 2004

In a few short years, a lot more vehicles will be equipped with hybrid, either through their own R&D or through buying from Toyota. a traditional RX330 will be less in demand than a h400. It is more or less like people tend to look for a AT than 5M when buying a used car. a few K up front with tax deduction, plus saving on gas and frankly a faster vehicle, plus a better resale value, should make the h well worth the 3k extra.
The downside, of course, is that the h will be a very high grade car and therefore commands a lot more than the current base RX price.

newcars · March 2004

I found this website discussing the forthcoming Toyota Highlander hybrid (http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/previews,view,Toyota.spy?art- id=22210&pg=4). It seems to indicate that the hybrid systems of the Toyota Highlander and the Lexus 400h will be different. The relevant section reads:

"The differences, when compared to the Lexus RX 400h, are that the Highlander Hybrid will offer 'electric four-wheel-drive with intelligence' (4WD-I), where the front and rear electric motors deliver balanced power to all four wheels to provide simultaneous acceleration."

Does anyone (usbseawolf2000?) know anything definitive.

avery1 · March 2004

Any thoughts on how capable the 400h AWD will be? I have a '99 RX 300 and it really isn't that capable as an AWD vehicle. When I replace it I want to get a more capable AWD vehicle. If they ever get the bugs out, the Touareg looks good but the gas mileage is terrible.

kullenberg · March 2004

The Touareg is a very capable vehicle, on and off road, and in the snow and ice. All that being said, all that capability does you no good if the vehicle is in the shop for lack of parts, or knowledge on the part of technicians. Other forums (which shall remain nameless) are full of horror stories about VW of America's lack of customer support for a vehicle that wasn't "left in the oven long enough".

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

This is from the RX 400h information that Lexus send me.

The AWD model has one motor for the front and one for the rear wheels. The FWD model has one in front.

RX 400h will have AWD(sounds like 4WD-i) and FWD models.

Dennis

carguy1234 · March 2004

Same for Highlander Hybrid.

Some info on the Highlander:

http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2004/highlander/minisite/printall.- html

wco81 · March 2004

With the two high torque motors for each axel. From the link above:

"HYBRID SYNERGY DRIVE SYSTEM
Hybrid Synergy Drive Pure power for both worlds.

Highlander will feature two versions of Toyotas Hybrid Synergy Drive: a front-wheel-drive model and a 4-Wheel-Drive with intelligence (4WD-i) model. The 4-wheel-drive Highlanders Hybrid Synergy Drive combines the power of a 3.3-liter DOHC 24-valve VVT-i V6 gas engine with the efficiency of two high-torque electric motors. Using a series of sophisticated computers and sensors, it constantly monitors multiple on-road variables to provide an ideal blend of power and fuel efficiency for any driving situation."

It doesn't say if the total output of the AWD will be greater than the FWD model or whether fuel efficiency will be different between the two models (since normal AWD models tend to have slightly lower fuel-efficiency than the FWD models).

Does promise 0-60 under 8 seconds. Isn't the normal RX330 in that range anyways?

If the Accord Hybrid sees improved performance over the V-6 model, that could be interesting.

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

HSD defies conventional concept. 4WD-I should get higher MPG due to ability to recapture more energy from braking. The extra motor in the back will also add extra torque and horse power.

RX 300. 0-60 mph acceleration, seconds, 8.8 (4 x 4) / 8.5 (4 x 2)

Dennis

hongcho · March 2004

I know that the Prius' ICE uses the Atkinson cycle. But it seems that the Lexus RX 400h uses the same 3.3L V6 engine from 330. Does this mean that its ICE uses the Otto cycle?

Hong.

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

It doesn't take much to change 3.3L V6 Otto cycle engine into Atkinson cycle. Atkinson cycle engine is about 10%-15% more efficient and reduces emission. The down side of it is the engine produces very weak torque in the very low RPM range. Fortunately, this is where electric motor(s) shine with very high torque. HSD design takes advantage of two power sources that are beneficial in opposite situation so, I am pretty sure 400h will have an Atkinson cycle engine.

Dennis

ceric · March 2004

I have been reading about Lexus(Toyota) hybrid and those of Honda. Some questions I got:
- The Atkinson ICE runs at the most optimum efficient RPM (3~4K RPM) constantly. True?
- If yes, wouldn't it shorten Atkinson ICEs' life span due to constant high RPM in contrast to those found on regular vehicles?
- Why don't Toyota hybrids allow plugging into the household electricity outlet to recharge battery as an alternative, say overnight in garages? That would further save gas, wouldn't it?

Thanks in advance.

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

"The Atkinson ICE runs at the most optimum efficient RPM (3~4K RPM) constantly. True?"

Not true. Atkinson cycle ICE is very efficient from 30% load(1,500 RPM) all the way to 100%(5,000 RPM) load. Any load below 20%(less than 7 horse power) starts to suffer from pumping loss. Fortunately, there is high torque electric motors to prevent from loss of efficiency. Optimum efficient RPM is very wide. You can see it on the first graph on page 11. http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/HV/2.pdf
Note: Data from the classic Prius.

"wouldn't it shorten Atkinson ICEs' life span due to constant high RPM in contrast to those found on regular vehicles?"

As explained above, Prius can use efficient RPM range from 1,500 RPM - 5,000 RPM depending on the load requirement. 5,000 RPM isn't high comparing to Otto cycle engine which redline is 7,000 RPM to 10,000 RPM. Prius does not require any RPM higher than 5,000 RPM therefore saving some weight in the ICE. I do not know the RPM limitation that will be set for the RX 400h.

"Why don't Toyota hybrids allow plugging into the household electricity outlet to recharge battery as an alternative, say overnight in garages? That would further save gas, wouldn't it?"

It would but it will also "damage" hybrid image. Most uninformed consumers already think a hybrid needs to be plugged in. Plus, the battery in the Prius isn't that big unlike an electric car. The computer also maintain the battery state of charge at certain minimum percentage so, the capacity that is left to plug in and charge would be limited.

BTW, Honda design uses Otto cycle ICE and you are welcome.

Dennis

usbseawolf2000 · March 2004

Interesting C&D article explaining another key aspect of HSD very well.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article- _id=7894&page_number=1

birger · April 2004

Hi,

I could consider the RX400h as a replacement for my current '00 Mercedes 270 CDI. The Lexus RX is a more refined vehicle, and the hybrid technology could probably compensate for the current RX300's biggest drawback here in Europe: Its remarkable thirst for gas.

But one thing is not yet clear: Which size will the 400h's fuel tank be, and thus what kind of range can you expect? Driving smoothly, mostly keeping at the speed limits (ie 130 kph/85 mph), the 75 liters of diesel in the Mercedes will take me from here in Luxembourg to somewhere well beyond Milan, or some 750 kilometers/466 miles, which I find comfortable. But if the current 72 liters tank of the RX is amputated to make room for the battery or what have you, and you end up with a 500 km range, I'll rather get the VW Touareg I-5, which has a fuel consumption comparable to the Mercedes's, but a whopping 100+ liters tank ;-)

Does anyone know any further details?? Also, any rumors on towing capability - with the Prius it's a no-no.

Enjoy your weekend,
Birger

carguy1234 · April 2004

I know for the Highlander the towing capacity is slated for 3500 pounds, and the fuel tank is 19+ gallons, yielding a cruising range of 600+ miles.

I would think the RX will be similar.

Kirstie_H · April 2004

New article at Edmunds.com
Hot Hybrids

lexusguy · April 2004

Is your Toureg the same 5,000+ lb. that ours his here in the states? i dont even want to think about how slow that would be with an even smaller engine than the 3L gas engine that the entry level Toureg uses here. You could probably read a few Tolstoy novels before it gets to 60mph.

Lexus RX 400h and 450h

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