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What type of hybrid should I buy?
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Comments
-- Bill Ford, Jr.
Well, there goes any thought I'd ever have of buying an Escape hybrid, at least in its first few years of existence. What sticks in my mind is Ford's last two efforts in passenger car design for the U.S.: The Contique/Mystour and the Focus. Do you recall how many times each of those vehicles was recalled in their early years? I do. I owned a '95 Mystique that spent much of its first year in the dealer's service bay. I added up the recalls on the Focus in its first couple of years and lost count at 13. And the hybrid system in the Escape is far more complex than anything in the Mystique or Focus. If I were Mr. Ford, I think I might try building buyer confidence by referring to the proven technology they have licensed from Toyota rather than saying "it's a totally Ford-designed system."
Maybe the upcoming Highlander or RX400H will be able to justify their price premium with better power, but I doubt it.
Getting things started, from 6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET, If your passion is Mazda or you just like to go ZOOM ZOOM, the place to be is the Mazda Mania chat.
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Good:
1. 15 more HP than the ICE Accord V6.
2. Fuel economy rated at 30/37 (ICE is 21/30).
Bad.
1. Costs $3400 more than the equivalent ICE V6. Assuming 15-20K of driving a year, and even assuming that the EPA rating is accurate, it'll take 6-8 years to recoup this cost.
2. Only offered in totally loaded form for a bit more than $30K.
3. Gimmicky, odd-feeling electric steering rather than hydraulics to save fuel.
The added horsepower is a step in the right direction, but I still see nothing to spend an additional $3400 on. So for Joe Average, still no go. Gives Prius owners something to trade up to I guess.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/hybrid_news.shtml
First ask yourself, what is the MAIN purpose of my car? The answer is: Drive to work. Cars spend 99% of their time going to work or back home.
So that means you need a car that can carry one person (yourself) to the job & back. That car is:
The Honda Insight (70 miles per gallon)
troy
Folding my 3 teenagers into the back of an Insight would be interesting work, indeed.
kirstie_h
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You need a Suburban. I do think the Insight is the best commuter car on the market today. I would say it is safe to say that 90% of the cars on the road are solo, especially during the rush hours. If you have two vehicles and you commute to work you will do all of us a service driving the Insight. On the rare occasion I am on the road during rush hour in my Suburban I will not run over any Insights that are blocking the left lane.:-)
kirstie_h
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MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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.
The key word is "sometimes". Can't you take TWO cars for that small 1% of the time you are not alone? That's what my friends do.
I'm sorry, but when I drive down interstate 95, I don't see cars with 3 or 4 or 5 people. 99% of the cars I see have just 1-2 persons going to work & empty rear seats. What a gigantic waste of precious gasoline.
Like I said before, the Insight is ideal for that 1-person commute.
Or else compromise:
Car #1 = 70 mpg Insight for the sole commuter
Car #2 = a 5-seat car for family trips
Troy
I own two 5-seat compact cars. I need them for several reasons, including:
* There are many times when both cars are in use with more than two people, e.g. my DW has two of my kids (who go to the same school) and I have the other car with my older son and one or more of his buddies.
* My wife has one car with the 3 kids and I am taking customers or visiting executives someplace.
* One car is in for service and we need all 5 seats on the other car.
Also, I almost never use my cars for commuting to work. I work out of my home most days when I am not flying someplace. When I do go to the office it's usually by bus. I put 7-8000 miles per year on one car, 10,000 on the other. So I agree the Insight is good for someone with a single-person long-distance commute (if public transportation isn't an option), but not the answer for everyone.
Unfortunately, even an Altima won't be comfortable for those trips, so I'm still holding out for a minivan (or 3-row vehicle). However, I quite like the Altima, and would be interested in a hybrid version circa 2007/8.
kirstie_h
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I put very few miles on my 3 vehicles. I pick the one that fits the errand. If I was a commuter none of them would be practical. The 1990 Mazda 626 is lucky to get 20 mpg around town. The 1999 Suburban gets 13-14 mpg on short drives. I would like a mid size PU for most of my trips to Home Depot or shopping. Until they get one that gets decent mileage I'll just use what I have. Remember a big share of the pollution is in the manufacturing of a vehicle.
I hear this argument a lot, but I look around and every one of my neighbors/coworkers has 2 cars: 1 for the husband/1 for the wife, because they work in 2 different locations.
The number of people who don't have 2 cars is an insignifigant amount. The argument has no validity for the majority of Americans.
During the triathlon season, there are weekends where 3 car seats, my bike and gear all get loaded into the minivan and off we go (no airports for us - too expensive). I'd love a hybrid version.
I don't know about the majority, but in large cities (in the Northeast especially) it's a pricey proposition to own (and park and insure) two cars. And they have good public transportation in cities like New York and Chicago, so you can get by with only one car. The train uses a lot less gas than even an Insight.
PS
Most Californians do not consider San Francisco part of the state.
How about those hybrids, eh?
The concept makes imminent sense and we definitely need to become a more energy efficient society. But the hybrid examples available to date still do not make economic sense and are not equal in performance and utility to their conventional counterparts.
I have three cars for two drivers and although I admire the Insights technology and fuel economy and presently drive a 2-seat car daily, the Insight could not substitute for my Miata, in spite of its larger cargo volume since it does not provide comparable dynamic capabilities.
As for your statment..."hybrids do not make economic sense and are not equal in performance" well, you'd have a hard time proving that to Nissan, Ford, Honda, and Toyota since they are selling in access of 450,000 hybrids and growing. As for performance well, look out Miata here comes more than three hybrids from Toyota, Nissan, and Honda that will give you a run for performance.(and more to come)
Last point is for you personally. Test drive a Prius or Accord hybrid and get back to this site. Then lets see what you've got to say about the cars of the future.
Culliganman (seeing is believing)
It's got me curious. Anybody know of a recently released hybrid vehicle starting with letter "I"--he's not sure about the name at all, for what it's worth.
It's got me curious. Anybody know of a recently released hybrid vehicle starting with letter "I"--he's not sure about the name at all, for what it's worth.
It isn't about whether or not hybrid is the right answer, but if it is for the individual, then which ONE should they purchase.
By January 1, 2005, the Department of General Services, CEC and ARB are directed to develop and adopt specifications and standards for all passenger cars and light-duty trucks that are purchased or leased by the state including, but not limited to, the following:
1) Minimum air pollution emission specifications that meet or exceed the state's Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle II (ULEV II) standards for exhaust emissions,
2) Procurement policies enabling evaluation of emissions and fuel economy and maximizing procurement of hybrid electric vehicles (HEVs) or substantially fuel efficient vehicles and vehicle that meet or exceed SULEV standards, and
http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/progs/search_state.cgi?afdc|CA
Just found this article. Let us know how that tank ended up after the 450 miles. trip and around town.....Sorry Kansas lost.
I am going to see the Rams this sunday, and I have never been to a football game...they are probably going to lose..
Keep writing about the Prius. bjrich.
So it seems that 0-60 times are what matter most. And to be honest with you, I outgrew the boy racer phase before my 20th birthday...and these horsepower laden cars are affordable only to guys who are entering a midlife crisis and trying to recapture the glory days of their high school years. My Prius is rated a 0-60 in something like 10 seconds...nope, I won't be winning any stoplight challenges, but on the other hand, I haven't had any problems getting on freeways, I can make a right turn on red without impeding the flow of oncoming traffic, and I have power on tap to pass with confidence. And I find it to be a bit upsetting that the technology to deliver higher economy is being hijacked in the name of needless horsepower.
I agree. Anyone that says they are trying to be environmentally conscientious, then buys a performance car whether it is a Ferrari or a Honda Accord Hybrid. I don't give them much credibility. If you are compelled to worry about 0-60 times. You cannot be worried about saving fossil fuel. The two are not synonomous. I believe those driving the current hybrids are wanting to do their part for the environment. The hybrid cars and SUVs on the horizon are more to salve the conscience of people that don't want to give up high performance to save the planet.
Fact: Many are going to buy V6-powered cars and SUVs, like Accords, Camrys, Altimas, Highlanders, and RX400h's. Isn't it better that people can buy vehicles of that size and power that get 30-40 mpg rather than 20-25? The current hybrids--Insight, Civic, Prius, and Escape--don't meet everyone's needs.
Isn't it better that people can buy vehicles of that size and power that get 30-40 mpg rather than 20-25? The current hybrids--Insight, Civic, Prius, and Escape--don't meet everyone's needs.
___So what would be wrong with the current Accord or Camry I4’s being VCM’ed and possibly IMA’ed/HSD’ed to receive 40 - 45 mpg combined, having V6 like performance, and still maintaining the I4 based PZEV emissions std.’s. Oh, and cost ~ the same as the V6 ;-)
___Or how about the Euro Accord’s iCDTi in an American sized Accord or CRV receiving 40 - 50 mpg combined for less then the V6 today? Maybe VCM them for 50 - 60 mpg combined? Maybe install the future Honda designed 1.5 - 1.7 L iCDTi w/ both IMA and VCM that would be good for 70 - 75 + mpg combined in the true midsized Accord sedan or CRV SUV? All of these mid-sized cars and SUV’s would have 0 - 60 times in under 10 seconds.
___We have plenty to look forward too but it isn’t quite here yet although it could have been :-(
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I guess to summarize, I change your wording from "The current hybrids don't meet everyones needs" to "The current hybrids don't meet everyones wants".
That is what free choice is all about. They can buy a Ferrari if they can afford it. The connotation that goes along with hybrid is saving the planet. We have shown many times that the manufacturing of a hybrid is much more polluting than a conventional ICE. Then when you add the fact of very little or no improvement in mileage over the more economical vehicles of the genre. I don't see where we are going ahead with this kind of charade. A 4 cylinder Accord will equal the mileage of the Accord hybrid with less overall damage to the environment. Same goes for the Ford Escape Hybrid. Edmund's with their Escape Hybrid are doing 25.5 mpg overall much worse than EPA. The only gains I am seeing is in the price.
Why not? Some people need to tow trailers, don't they? How about a little empathy for people who can't get by without a large vehicle? I don't need a large vehicle myself, but I recognize that some people need them, e.g. the horse rancher that needs to tow a horse trailer might very well need that 300 hp SUV or pickup. I know for sure a HCH or Prius couldn't do it. As for soccer moms, I know many moms (and dads) that regularly need to haul more than five people. So a minivan or SUV might work best for them. Again, I think we need to respect other people's needs and not assume that what is right for us is right for everyone, and look down our noses at others because they don't drive the most fuel efficient vehicles on the planet.