Hybrids in the News

backy · March 2006

What is the comparo vehicle to the Prius--a 4-door hatchback with mid-sized interior room, voice navigation, Bluetooth, SmartEntry & Start? Hint: it's not the Corolla, or Camry.

rorr · March 2006

"What is the comparo vehicle to the Prius--a 4-door hatchback with mid-sized interior room, voice navigation, Bluetooth, SmartEntry & Start?"

What if you aren't interested in voice navigation, Bluetooth, SmartEntry and Start?

Are you saying that comparing the Prius to other mid-sized 4-door hatchbacks is not fair?

NO cars will line up 100% feature for feature. Does that mean they can't be compared?

snakeweasel · March 2006

First off I wouldn't get bluetooth or nav as I think they are a complete waste of money.

So that means a four door hatchback with all the power equipment ABS brakes with compartable interior room for considerably less than 23-24K?

Yes that can be done.

backy · March 2006

We aren't talking about what car YOU would buy (you've already made it clear you won't buy a hybrid). Many Prius buyers (most?) opt for the fully-loaded models with voice nav, Bluetooth, and SmartEntry & Start. You said earlier:

If I am going to compare car 'A' with car 'B' both will have comparatable equipment. I am not going to compare a 4 cylinder to a 6, or a stripped down one to a fully loaded one. Its never a fair comparison.

So for those people who buy a Prius with the features I listed, what is the comparo car?

snakeweasel · March 2006

See post 4849.

Of the three prius' that I have seen and talked to the owners of none had Nav or blue tooth

again see post 4849

backy · March 2006

I not only saw 4850, I typed it.

Three cars out of 100,000 per year is hardly a representative sample.

Anyone else have an idea what the comparable ICE vehicle would be for someone thinking about buying a well-equipped Prius?

snakeweasel · March 2006

I not only saw 4850, I typed it

Sorry corrected it

Three cars out of 100,000 per year is hardly a representative sample.

You have anything to prove otherwise?

Again see post number 4849

backy · March 2006

When I was in the process of ordering a Prius (and waiting for it), I kept up with the allocations of various option packages to the Central Region. The great majority of the Priuses being shipped to dealers were the fully loaded ones, with nav, Bluetooth, SmartEntry & Start etc. So the lightly-loaded Prius I ordered took forever to get to the dealer.

rorr · March 2006

"So for those people who buy a Prius with the features I listed, what is the comparo car?"

Loaded question. You might as well list "and with a hybrid drivetrain" as a feature to 'prove' your point.

BTW - my dad owns a Prius II. Without NAV. I've no idea if it has bluetooth. He wouldn't know what bluetooth was if it bit him in the posterior. And he didn't want to pay extra for the optional smartentry/start, but since he would have had to wait another couple of months for 'his' Prius to come in without it, he took one with it instead. He bought the Prius simply because he loves Toyotas and he loves high fuel economy cars. He didn't give a hoot if other cars would make more economical sense.

Why are you so afraid to simply compare the Prius to other 4-door hatchbacks with comparable room? Why must you handpick two or three features (which you KNOW aren't available elsewhere) to 'prove' a point? I might as well say that the new Dodge Caliber is in a totally different class from the Prius simply because it has a chilled glovebox. Heck, you've got to step up to a Rolls or a Maybach to find another car with a chiller built into the glovebox. But I'm not going to be so obtuse as to insist the Caliber is in that class based on a single feature.

gagrice · March 2006

Anyone else have an idea what the comparable ICE vehicle would be for someone thinking about buying a well-equipped Prius?

You left out a few things the Prius is for sure lacking in. Handling, moonroof, and performance. The Mazda6 Hatch has all that and satellite radio. Which I would take over a NAV any day of the week. You are under the misconception that people like the Prius because it is a Hatchback. Many people hate hatchbacks and that was a turn off. As far as bluetooth. The sooner a cell phone ban while driving, goes into affect nationwide and cops are equipped with scanners to nail people. The better off we all will be.

snakeweasel · March 2006

The sooner a cell phone ban while driving, goes into affect nationwide and cops are equipped with scanners to nail people. The better off we all will be.

They said the same thing about radios when they fo\irst appeared in cars.

backy · March 2006

One of the major plusses for the Prius for me was the fact it is a hatchback. I would never have considered it had it been a sedan, like the Classic Prius.

Cell phone bans will probably make Bluetooth more popular. The bans are for handheld phones.

backy · March 2006

Why are you so afraid to simply compare the Prius to other 4-door hatchbacks with comparable room?

I'm not. I compared the Prius (base with side bags) to the Matrix not long ago. For someone like me who doesn't need all the bells and whistles, there are a few ICE cars that are priced lower than the Prius. But when you start comparing cars with comparable features, as one poster stated that we must do, then consider all the features the Prius offers, it's pretty tough to find a lower-priced car with comparable features. Obviously, if someone must have a moonroof or stick shift or something else not offered on the Prius, they won't buy a Prius.

gagrice · March 2006

The bans are for handheld phones

Not everywhere. You can lose your driving privilege and your job, talking hands free on oil company roads where I work. Cell phones are a menace to drivers. They take their attention from their driving. messing with a CD or the radio can also be a distraction.

kdhspyder · March 2006

My point is that there is a value placed on each 'upgrade' by individual buyers that's personal to each one.

The Prius itself is an upgrade over other 4 door hatchbacks because of it's interior passenger space and hybrid technology. To some this has value and to others it does not. Certainly there is a difference in price but is the difference excessive or of no consequence.

If a person wants an XLE V6 Camry over an XLE 4c Camry is the price differential fair or excessive. It depends solely on the buyer's wants.

It's precisely the same with a hybrid over an ICE-only. Yes there is often a price difference but the value returned to a specific buyer is not quantifiable. If it were only about money then we should all drive used 5 year old vehicles ( how would this occur?

) because in the end it's just a hunk of metal with wheels and zero value in 15 yrs.

backy · March 2006

I am glad I don't drive on oil company roads then!

PF_Flyer · March 2006

A reminder... if you want to go indepth on specific vehicles like the Prius or HCH, please use the specific topics for those vehciels and leave this one for discussion of hybrid vehicle news items.

I KNOW that some of those news items are going to be about specific vehciles, but we want to avoid having the discussion about those vehicles migrate out of their designated topics and folders.

Thanks!

kdhspyder · March 2006

taken from the pages herein

.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/14/Autos/tipsandadvice/hybrid_worries/index.htm

On balance this article does present the questions and concerns in a balanced way. The writer must have reviewed the give and take herein in summarizing much of what is being discussed.

62vetteefp · March 2006

The great majority of the Priuses being shipped to dealers were the fully loaded ones, with nav, Bluetooth, SmartEntry & Start etc.
that is most likely because it the loaded vehicle gives the dealer the most profit. When cars are hot always load up on loaded ones because they will sell.

kdhspyder · March 2006

No it really was demand early on. Many buyers thought the $26K+ price for all the Prius-toys was a bargain and hopped all over it. 75%+ of all the models were loaded with 2-6 month waiting lists. Now 3 yrs down the road the most commonly ordered trim is Package #6 with no Nav, also at abt $26K+. It's the middle trim level.

dewey · March 2006

Prius Envy?

This will be a new term that will become a part of our daily vocabulary very soon. But Prius envy has nothing to do with gas guzzlers envying gas thrifty drivers. The term will be used to describe the road rage provoked by slow hybrid drivers on highways.

For more details read the following:

link title

snakeweasel · March 2006

My point is that there is a value placed on each 'upgrade' by individual buyers that's personal to each one.

My point is not everyone wants all those upgrades, For those that think that bluetooth and nav is a usless waste of money on a car then they are. As some one else said your trying to configure the car to eliminate every other car, you can do that with just about every car. What if I started requiring AWD on the car? Where does that leave the prius?

The Prius itself is an upgrade over other 4 door hatchbacks because of it's interior passenger space and hybrid technology.

There are other 4 door hatchbacks that have as good or better interior passenger space. So that just leaves hybrid technology, a technology which doesn't necessarily improve the car.

snakeweasel · March 2006

Not only that but I have gotten behind hybrid drivers at stop lights that try to squeeze out every possible MPG they can while accelerating. These clowns are usually take forever to get to 30-35 MPH all the while holding up traffic and forcing them to waste gas as their cars lug in lower gears. :mad:

backy · March 2006

There are other 4 door hatchbacks that have as good or better interior passenger space. So that just leaves hybrid technology, a technology which doesn't necessarily improve the car.

So now the car buying decision has been reduced to passenger space, and hybrid powertrain vs. non-hybrid powertrain? That seems pretty narrow, and unrealistic. From participating in this forum for the past six years, I know that there are many other car-buying criterion.

If you require AWD on a car, that eliminates all but two of the current hybrids. If you require a moonroof, that eliminates many of the current hybrids too. But it doesn't mean those features are important for everyone. Likewise, the availability of features like voice navigation and Bluetooth are important for some people.

This thread started when you stated that there was a direct comparo to the Prius that costs less. The reality of it is, in some cases there is, and in some cases there is not. It's a complex world, not easy to define in black and white.

backy · March 2006

I see this behavior (slow acceleration from stop) all the time--99% of it is with non-hybrid cars. Interesting how the hybrid drivers get picked on, just like the article said would happen.

I have not yet seen a hybrid hold up traffic, on a highway or any other public road. I have seen a few hybrids blast by me on the freeway though, as I poke along in the right lane at the limit. And I often see drivers in the HOV lane driving at the limit or a little above, with other cars riding their tails. Some people don't seem to realize that the HOV lane has a different role than "the far left lane", and people who use it should not be forced to exceed the speed limit.

P.S. If your car is lugging in lower gears, you should get it checked.

kdhspyder · March 2006

If they are doing that then they are clowns and just driving wrong. With it's high initial torque the Prius should be the first vehicle 'off the line' and it's also the most efficient wayto drive;i.e get up to speed quickly and let off the pedal to shut down the ICE.

snakeweasel · March 2006

So now the car buying decision has been reduced to passenger space, and hybrid powertrain vs. non-hybrid powertrain? That seems pretty narrow, and unrealistic.

Why tell me? I wasn't the one who said that the Prius is an upgrade over other 4 door hatchbacks because of its interior space, that was kdhspyder. But FWIW interior space can be an issue for me, I have stopped considering cars due to it.

If you require AWD on a car, that eliminates all but two of the current hybrids.

If I require an station wagon it eliminates all hybrids, The fact is you configured a car that eliminated every other possible car to make a point. As it has been pointed out earlier the minority of the prius' now don't have those things. So I can get a 4 door hatchback of similar interior size with a CD player power locks windows and the like plus 4-5 years worth of gas for the same price of a prius.

gagrice · March 2006

If you require AWD on a car, that eliminates all but two of the current hybrids.

Actually there are 5 available. HH, RH, Ford Escape, Mercury Mariner hybrid and Mazda Tribute hybrid. I believe some of the complaints on buying the Prius was the lack of available lower end models. I would think the person that is after a high mileage car that is inexpensive would look for a basic Prius. That may account for the popularity of the Civic hybrid. It is available for less money and equal if not better mileage. Most of the Prius posted here are in the OTD $27k to $32k range. An expensive car for someone wanting to save money.

snakeweasel · March 2006

I see this behavior (slow acceleration from stop) all the time--99% of it is with non-hybrid cars.

I normally don't see that. I would say most of the time traffic around here starts off at a moderate to a little faster rate. (that is unless you consider slow acceleration not flooring it).

FWIW there are no HOV lanes here.

snakeweasel · March 2006

With it's high initial torque the Prius should be the first vehicle 'off the line'

Should be and is are two different animals.

kdhspyder · March 2006

This has gone tangentially off into 'what-if' details that are unrelated. My sole contention is that there are features and benefits in every vehicle that have no quantifiable value for many (most?) buyers. It's why the decision to buy is made in the end.

It's where 'price to acquire' and 'value' meet. All the analysis in the world will not change a buyers mind if he/she sees more value in one vehicle over another. It's just that simple. It doesnt make the analysis wrong it's just that the numbers dont take into account all the aspects of value.

kdhspyder · March 2006

OK.. OK

You've been unlucky in your driving. I've never been stuck behind a slowpoke hybrid driver. But I have been stopped dead by a geezer Sonata driver or Huge moving vans or cellphone-chatting Scion talkers.

Your point? No conclusion can be drawn from either your comment or mine.

gagrice · March 2006

Some people don't seem to realize that the HOV lane has a different role than "the far left lane", and people who use it should not be forced to exceed the speed limit.

It is just that thinking that is causing the problem. The HOV lane is to move a group of people as quickly as possible to their destination. It was not conceived to reward some yokel in a hybrid, giving him his own personal lane to drive as he feels like driving. Hopefully they will rescind the whole program of allowing solo drivers in the High Occupancy Vehicle lane. It is a violation of the law set forth by Congress.

I think that article is very succinct in addressing one of the major obstacles to the hybrids going mainstream. It is a polarizing technology. An "In Your Face" holier than thou solution. People will either hate it or love it. I am betting the majority will come to hate it. The early adopters and their "look at me" attitude will be the reason.

gagrice · March 2006

I've never been stuck behind a slowpoke hybrid driver.

I have once. It was an Escape Hybrid driving 45 MPH in the right lane of Interstate 8 on a long steep grade. I just thought the hybrid had run out of power. Seems after learning more he was just trying to save gas with a string of commuters fuming behind him.

And you are correct it is not just hybrids that drive like that. It happens all the time with every kind of car. Where the big red flag comes up is in the HOV lane with a solo driver and a big tag on his car that says he is better than every one else. He or she can drive solo in the lane reserved for car pooling. With 50,000 of them clogging the HOV lanes, there will be some incidents. It is bound to happen.

backy · March 2006

The HOV lane is to move a group of people as quickly as possible to their destination. It was not conceived to reward some yokel in a hybrid, giving him his own personal lane to drive as he feels like driving.

HOV lanes were not conceived to be toll roads, available only to those able to pay for them, either, but that is what they are becoming in my town. If you don't like how HOV lanes are utilized in your state, complain to your legislators.

The purpose of HOV lanes, btw, is to reward drivers for certain behaviors. At first, it rewarded drivers who took other passengers with them. Now, some states have decided to reward drivers of hybrids. I can't say that I agree with that, but my state hasn't taken this path yet. What I do not agree with is that HOV drivers should be forced to exceed the speed limit just because some "yokel" behind them feels the need for speed. The HOV lane is not the "fast lane." But that is not a hybrid discussion.

Your characterization of hybrid drivers as "yokels" does tell me a lot.

P.S. Thanks for the correction on the number of AWD hybrids--I forgot about the Escmarbute.

snakeweasel · March 2006

The purpose of HOV lanes, btw, is to reward drivers for certain behaviors.

It is my understanding that HOV lane were enacted to encourage people to car pool thereby reducing congestion, pollution and to save gas. Allowing cars with one person in them, even though its a hybrid, seems to cancel that out.

backy · March 2006

It is counter to the congestion part but is consistent with the reducing pollution and gas saving parts. However, there are other high-mpg, low-emissions cars that are not hybrids, so the rationale for opening HOV lanes to single-driver hybrids only is questionable to me.

gagrice · March 2006

Your characterization of hybrid drivers as "yokels" does tell me a lot.

It can be an endearing term also. The point being anyone in any car that holds up traffic to save a few pennies in gas is a yokel in my mind. And you are wrong about the HOV not being the fast lane. It is meant to get people to work as quickly as possible. If it is clogged with solo driver cars, all trying to set some record for the most miles driven on a gallon of gas, how is it of any value to the car poolers?

How do you get that the HOV laws set up by Congress, were conceived to reward drivers for certain behavior? Quite frankly long before the hybrids became an issue the HOV lanes headed toward Los Angeles were so over crowded that I would rather stay in the other lanes. They are very limited as far as getting in and out. So if you were to get behind a yokel in a Buick traveling 65 MPH you were stuck.

backy · March 2006

How do you get that the HOV laws set up by Congress, were conceived to reward drivers for certain behavior?

I think snakeweasel did a good job stating the behavior that was originally to be rewarded: driving with one or more other passengers. Now, in some states that definition is changing to reward people driving hybrids, or (as in my state) those willing to spend some money to maintain the HOV lanes.

Anyway, I wasn't talking about someone holding up traffic to save a few pennies in gas, but the right of a driver to obey traffic laws. If there is only one HOV lane (sometimes there are more), and a driver doesn't want to exceed the speed limit for whatever reason (safety, economy, doesn't want to get a ticket...) I think that is their prerogative. On a multi-lane road, the slower drivers need to stay to the right of course. That option doesn't exist on a one-lane HOV road, and on some of them there is no way to safely pull off to the side to let the speeders pass. If someone is chugging along at 50 mph in an HOV lane and they could safely and legally go faster, that is another matter.

gagrice · March 2006

Now, in some states that definition is changing to reward people driving hybrids, or (as in my state)

That is what is up for debate. The HOV lanes were built with Federal funds and subject to Federal laws. Some states are breaking the law to have that feel good appearance. I think it is still in limbo as far as legality. They could lose Federal highway funding as they should.

micheals · March 2006

I agree that the HOV lane has become just an excuse to drive as fast as possible, regardless of the traffic conditions. On a trip to Salt Lake City a couple of months ago, I used the HOV lane with several passengers. The speed limit was 60 and I was driving 70-75 and people were still riding my tail to go faster. One day I got caught in the regular lane in a semitraffic jam and couldn't get into the HOV lane because they were still driving 70+ mph.

It is unfortunate IMO that the HOV lane has just become an excuse to drive as far above the speed limit as possible.

PF_Flyer · March 2006

Let's try this again. if you wish to discuss the Prius, or HOV lanes, please use the existing discussions we have for those topics and leave this discussion for commenting on current news items involving hybrids.

Folks coming to the forum looking for discussions and information about the Prius are not going to be looking here for it.

PF_Flyer · March 2006

Quantum Delivers Hydrogen Hybrid Vehicles to Burbank
IRVINE, Calif., March 17 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Quantum Fuel Systems Technologies Worldwide, Inc., (Nasdaq: QTWW - News) today announced the delivery of five hydrogen-fueled Toyota Prius hybrid vehicles to the City of Burbank, California. This is part of a larger South Coast Air Quality Management District (AQMD) program to develop and demonstrate 30 hydrogen hybrid vehicles to fleets in Southern California. The formal delivery will take place during a ceremony to be held today at the City of Burbank's Public Works Yard.
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060317/laf007.html?.v=49

kdhspyder · March 2006

The HOV problem in CA seems very valid and it would annoy the ..... out of me since I tend to driver too fast even in the Prius. I can see the 'theoretical' benefit of encouraging the use of alternate fuels and better consumption but there is often unforeseen side effects and single use of the HOV's is one of them.

Quick comparison: The HSD saves about 30% of fuel on a combined usage. Has the single use of HOV's increased the total number of vehicles on the road by more than 30%? If so then it's counterproductive from a FE viewpoint. That's a study for the CA DOT. Now from an emissions viewpoint are the Prius/Civic 50% or 80% cleaner than other gassers? Diesels? ( different kind of emissions ). There may actually be a benefit to putting more of these lower emitting vehicles on the road, even in the HOV lanes, if overall air quality improves.

PF_Flyer · March 2006

Let's keep things in their proper place OK?

Here's where the HOV discussion should take place:

http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.ef32449/244

micheals · March 2006

With all due respect this discussion stemmed from an article posted about hybrids in the HOV lane and the displeasure other motorists had about this. If this isn't hybrid in the news, then I am not sure what is. Since I have heard several people who had HOV access as the reason for purchasing a hybrid, possible developments of public displeasure of these policies seem relevant.

gagrice · March 2006

Once Treasury has settled on the dollar amount of the credits, this will represent the most a taxpayer will be able to get; some hybrid buyers will receive little if any benefit. That's because when Congress passed the credit, it allowed the credit to reduce regular tax bills, but not the AMT--that second shadow tax that more and more people pay. So the 5 million or so taxpayers, mostly upper-middle-income folks in high-tax states, who are sure to owe alternative minimum tax in 2006, will not be able to claim the hybrid break at all.

Wait, it gets worse. You figure your regular tax, then your AMT and pay whichever is higher. Say your regular tax is $500 higher than your AMT. That means even if you don't otherwise owe AMT, you can use only $500 of what might have been a $2,500 hybrid credit. And here's the real kicker: Congress has yet to extend certain temporary AMT relief that expired at the end of 2005. If it doesn't extend that relief, then 26 million taxpayers--including almost everyone who can afford a new car--will pay AMT and there will be almost no one left who can actually benefit from a hybrid break. (The exception: Folks earning really big bucks--say $1 million or more--don't usually pay AMT. So a Hollywood star who already owns a Porsche and a Hummer, can get a credit for adding a Prius to his status stable.)

This craziness doesn't just hurt upper-middle class families. Here's how one middle-class family could lose the credit, according to Phil Schwindt, senior tax research analyst with CCH, a Wolters Kluwer (other-otc: WTKWY.PK - news - people ) business.

Take a married couple, each earning $30,000, with $6,000 in childcare expenses for two children under 13. They lean green and want to buy a Prius. But under current law, they would lose the entire hybrid car credit, and they would even lose $380 of the $1,200 childcare credit. If Congress, as expected, finally renews AMT relief, they would get the full childcare credit, but keep only $1,000 of the hybrid credit. The only chance they have to get the full hybrid credit is if Congress passes a new fix specifically allowing it. (Such a provision was in a Senate version of a tax cut package, but not in the House counterpart. So it's iffy.)

tax credit

tagman · March 2006

micheals,
With all due respect, I agree with the HOST on this. Yes, an article was posted, but the article would have been better off posted in the Hybrids and HOV Lanes forum to begin with. Since it was posted here, which is understandable how that could happen . . . yes, it is reasonable to expect that there would be some additional posts. But when the HOST recognized that there were more than just a few responses and that it had grown to become more of a main topic of discussion, it makes complete sense that the correct forum then be reminded to all.

Seems reasonable, IMO. At least that's how I see it.

TagMan

dewey · March 2006

London mayor Ken Livingstone is reviewing the list of cars exempt from the £8-a-day London congestion charge, reports The Times.

It has come to his attention that the Lexus RX400h is, as a hybrid petrol-electric model, exempt from the charge, yet it consumes more fuel and emits more carbon dioxide than many non-hybrid cars liable for the payment and thus hardly qualifies as a 'green' vehicle.

The most progressive green-cause mayors in the world(City of London) does not think that the Lexus RX400H qualifies as a environmentally friendly vehicle.

All RX400H or hybrid Highlander drivers who consider themeselves mother earth lovers should read the details of the article linked below:

link title

moparbad · March 2006

Are Hybrid Sales Running Out of Gas?

Hybrid sales are slowing as fuel costs are increasing, not an encouraging sign of hybrids future.

Hybrids in the News

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