Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

The Future of Hybrid Technology

1…34689…24

Comments

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Both the plugin hybrid Sprinter and the Dodge Ram would be useable for me. I looked at the Sprinter as a work truck. The 5 cylinder diesel pushes that beast along at 25 mpg. Pretty amazing for the size.

    Thanks for the links
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I doubt in this climate manufacturers are going to bring diesels to market when the cost of diesel is averaging $0.25 more per gallon than regular unleaded. I understand BMW is working on a hybrid of their own. That should be interesting. As to the Prius, most owners (at least the ones I see posting) seem VERY happy with their cars. I suppose the dealers are happy too because they can't keep 'em on the lot. Will be interesting to see how well the HAH does. I think that car offers a great deal more performance than the Prius and should garner a fair amount of interest. Let's hope!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Hybrids ARE COMING ??

    Check out this test drive of the Dodge Durango hybrid. What happened to it?

    http://www.edmunds.com/news/innovations/articles/46970/article.ht- ml
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    It was the big 3 now its the big 2.5 since Chrysler sold half the company, before that they declared bankruptcy and somewhere in there Plymouth was done away with so IMO they aren't doing that well, a hybrid Durango would make way too much sense ...
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think we have the big 3.5 as Toyota is in the mix at 2 or 3 depending on what you read.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Railroadjames

    said" Midnight...You're in the dark if you think that our existing problems were attributed to the railroads .."

    No you mistook what I was saying. I was saying that at the time railroads thought they wer invincible and would never be replaced by automobiles...

    I think that is the same attitude being exhibited by Toyota with their Prius, and soon there will be alternatives and Toyota's haughtiness will result in a significant loss of future vechicle sales.

    Cheers,

    MidCow
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    How again is Toyota being "haughty?" Because they failed to plan well enough to meet the demand? That's more of a business failure than haughtiness, no?

    Remember, it's the DEALERS who are charging more than MSRP, not Toyota coporate....
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    The attitude and courtesy of the sales people. They seems to have lost all focus on customer courtesy and respect.

    Okay, for the moment they have a popular car in limited supply without any real competitive alternatives. Again , I say for the moment . The can command MSRP or higher, that is basic economics, the law of supply and demand; that is okay!. However treating the customer with disrespect and being discourteous is not acceptable. Toyota is starting a trend toward losing customers for life, because the customers they run off are not likely to ever come back. This is just not good business marketing practice, there is not an unlimited supply of new car buyers.

    YMMV,

    MidCow.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote-"However treating the customer with disrespect and being discourteous is not acceptable."-end

    This is widespread, and is happening only because of the Prius situation?

    I was mistreated (they made my wife cry) and lied to at a Toyota dealer back in 2000. This is the same dealership who was asking $5000 premium on 2004 Priuses also.

    I think individual acts of customers getting trated badly ad lied to is not new and has nothing to do with the Prius or Toyota - it's just the way some of those people do business.
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    Come on now! Why do you insist on the term haughty? It implies that Toyota has ulterior motives for selling worldwide a car that Runs cleaner, goes farther on less gas and finally delivers on the goods. My allegance to the railroads is simply because the past clearly shows how a conglomerate like the auto & oil industry could create the monster we have today. Lobbyists ruled gov. as they still do today all too many times. Build it (asphalt) and they will come and boy did they. Mass transit got left to pickup the crumbs after the auto & oil industry had their way with us. As to the question of rude and unscrupulous dealers out there; search out the good ones and rat out the others to Toyota. I'm sure they would want to confront the "bad guys". Getting back to the PRIUS. Just remember what you like best in a car and see if the Prius delivers. Maybe its not for everybody but then again neither is a "Hummer". Right? Right
    Culliganman (just a friend)
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Either of these incentive increases, should they occur, would throw gas on the fire of interest in Hybrid vehicles:

    "Kerry is offering to raise the hybrids' tax credit to $5,000, and he would give $10 billion over four years in tax breaks to U.S. automakers to help them retool factories for cars and trucks that get high fuel efficiency.
    Bush says he would raise the hybrid credit to $4,000, although no such action was taken in a large tax bill he signed Friday, and the credit is scheduled to be phased out by 2007. Bush would not give tax breaks directly to the auto firms for switching to hybrid production."
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Upcoming and current Hybrids:

    "Steaming into the future"
    Chronology of hybrid vehicle production:

    -- Honda: Insight hatchback -- 1999
    -- Toyota: Prius sedan* -- 2000
    -- Honda: Civic sedan -- 2002
    -- General Motors/Allison: city bus** -- 2003
    -- Ford: Escape SUV -- Sept. 2004
    -- Chevrolet: Silverado pickup -- Oct. 2004
    -- GMC: Sierra pickup -- Oct. 2004
    -- Honda: Accord sedan -- Dec. 2004
    -- Toyota/Lexus: RX400h SUV -- early 2005
    -- Toyota: Highlander SUV -- early 2005
    -- Saturn: VUE crossover SUV -- 2006
    -- Nissan: Altima sedan -- 2006
    -- Chevrolet: Malibu sedan -- 2006
    -- Mercury: Mariner SUV -- 2007
    -- Chevrolet: Tahoe SUV -- 2007
    -- GMC: Yukon SUV -- 2007
    -- Ford: Fusion sedan -- 2007
    * substantially revised in 2004
    ** diesel-electric hybrid.
    Sources: Booz Allen Hamilton, Chronicle research
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Kerry is offering to raise the hybrids' tax credit to $5,000. Bush says he would raise the hybrid credit to $4,000...

    Correction: they are tax deductions from what I read, rather than a tax credit. And the latest bill signed left the $2,000 tax deduction in place for another year. I believe it will go to $500 in 2006. This is the last big corporate giveaway (see link) that went for nothing. NO incentives are needed. Set the standards for emissions and let the automakers figure it out.

    http://ev1-club.power.net/archive/031219/jpg/after2.htm
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Yes, technically it's a deduction not a credit. But the point is to encourage people THROUGH THEIR WALLET to driver cleaner cars. Nothing wrong with that strategy.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    the point is to encourage people THROUGH THEIR WALLET to driver cleaner cars.

    I agree. I think a tax credits for energy saving cars is a better way to encourage energy conservation, than giving out more corporate welfare.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    Back the truck up, Kerry would give tax breaks to auto manufactures but Bush wouldn't, next thing you know intelligent young ladies parading around in bathing suites won't have a TV outlet - thanks for posting the hybrid chronology list !
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Look out here come the new clean, mean, almost green low sulpher diesels!"

    Clean? Not clean enough for US emission standard. LSD turbo diesel might need to add hybrid option to reach legal emission standard.

    "What is it they don't get you ask? Performance If you focus only on "green" you lose. If you focus only on "high economy" you lose."

    RX400H completely disagree with you. If you are waiting for the perfect hybrid that suit your taste, you are going to have to do more of the same; wait longer. Please, don't "sour grape" to those buyers that suit for Prius taste. BTW, I am in the same boat as you.

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "0-60 mph time is a standard metric to measure performance."

    LOL.

    "all other Toyotas except the Corolla 4 cylinder auto and almost all SUVs and Trucks can out accelrate the Prius."

    In your standard metric of measurment? Prius is faster than 4-cyl Camry auto in 30-50mph. Release that tunnel vision.

    "Let's face it the Prius is slow! slow!"

    That depends on where you live. In Europe, 0-60 in 11 sec is above average performance. What is your defination of slow? slow=not fast?

    Dennis
  • usbseawolf2000usbseawolf2000 Member Posts: 759
    "Only reason is FUD and high gas prices"

    People buy hybrids because they fear, uncertain and doubful? LOL. 04' Prius sale took off with waiting list before the gas prices went up.

    Dennis
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That depends on where you live. In Europe, 0-60 in 11 sec is above average performance. What is your defination of slow? slow=not fast?

    The Europeans drive a lot faster than we do. I don't think the Prius will cut the grade over there, where they expect a car to run at 125 mph on the highway. And every test I see from the UK lists the 0-60 or 0-62 times. It is rare to see a car slower than 10 seconds.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    04' Prius sale took off with waiting list before the gas prices went up.

    The Prius sales took off after certain Hollywood types like DiCaprio drove them to big events. I imagine they were given to them as a PR gimmick and it worked.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    If you think Hollywood glory sold the Prius I have a bridge to sell you too! LOL
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    More than adequate is a reasonable term that can apply to the PRIUS as to performance. I've demo'd the car (I own) to others with overwelling smiles that indicate satisfaction. Gas has shot up again and its a strange thing to "smile" as it escalates toward $3.00 a gal. After a 3 month wait to get this amazing car, I have to tell you that it fullfills near perfection. It also has become an every day conversation piece. MOTOR TREND awarded the PRIUS with "car of the year"..not to be taken lightly. Oh yes, another smile beams when we see it on T.V. on various shows.
    Culliganman (hi -railer)
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Actually saw a Prius on Cold Case the other night. Enjoy you car! You made a wise decision. IGNORE the naysayers.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    RailroadJames said:

    "Getting back to the PRIUS. Just remember what you like best in a car and see if the Prius delivers. "

    Therein lies my problem. The feature I like best in a car above all others is: "Manual Transmission"

    Therein lies the rub, I think the Prius is outstanding otherwise. I could learn to live with the slow acceleration , non-leather, non-power seats, average JBL radio sound and the tepid handling. but I can not and will not live without a MANUAL SHIFT car.

    I noticed today on the radio, that Toyota is trying to spur up the sales on their most popular car the Corolla by upping the rebate on new 2005 models to $1,000 for ALL Corolla including the XRS performance version. By the way the Corolla offers a 5-speed manual shift in the CE,SE, LE models and a 6-speed in the XRS model.

    YMMV, cognitive dissonance : want both performance and high mpg

    MidCow
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote-"YMMV, cognitive dissonance : want both performance and high mpg"-end quote

    Alas, me matey, I fears you ask too much of the Laws of Physics and 2004 Technology !!
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Alas, me matey, I fears you ask too much of the Laws of Physics and 2004 Technology !!

    That is a sad state of affairs. I remember in the mid 1980s the Honda CRX that performed great and got great mileage. Too bad we have fallen so far behind in the last 20 years.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Yes the CRX is quite an amazing car. Just can't compete with today's SAFER cars. Cars have made WONDERFUL strides since the early 80's. Not sure what you are referring to.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I was referring to performance and mileage. I am not one that believes all the crumple zones and airbags make us safer drivers. I think a false sense of security is a dangerous feeling. Especially when it comes to cars. According to the Insurance Institute (IIHS) I am safer in my Suburban than my LS400 Lexus, and safer in the Lexus than my Mazda 626. Mainly because the bigger car stands a better chance in a collision with a smaller car. So I guess I am not sure what you are referring to when you say we have made WONDERFUL strides. I was safer in my Dad's 1949 Packard than someone in a 2005 Prius. The only strides I see are the burgeoning prices of cars.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Yes I am pushing the assymptotic limit of physics :)

    My My how our perceptions change. I remember the Mustang High Performance with a 271Hp 289 cu in V8. It only had a time of 0-60 of 7.5 seconds. But in the mid-sixties it was wickedly fast.

    Yes, I too had a CRX in 1985. If fact I had two within a year. I started with a HF, then repalced it with the 1.5 Liter 91 horsepoer SI. It was fast , fun and sporty and I believe was rated at 32/36 anyway I got over 30 mpg all the time. Now the reality check, the 0-60 mph time was 8.5 seconds. That is pretty slow today about equal to the average v6 auto sedan performance. unless you measure in PPUs. But back in the mid 80s to late 80s it seemed fast and fun.

    PPUs (Prius Performance Units, the new standard of green performance). One PPU is 0-60 in 10.5 seconds The way PPU is measured is by dividing the evaluated car's 0-60 MPH time by the Prius standard) For example in PPUs the following are some examples:

    Walking slow 3 miles per hour 1/4 mile in 5 minutes (300 seconds) 300/10.5 = 28.6
    Jetta TDI auto (14 seconds) = (14/10.5) =1.333
    Prius= (10.5/10.5) 1.0
    CRX si= (8.5/10.5)= .81 average car today
    HAH (6.0/10.5)= .57
    Corvette (4.5/10.5)= .43
    SOL ~= 0

    So if you are greater than 1 then bad ,bad performance, .81 about noraml for sedans/coupes, .57 perfromance and .43 and less exotics.

    YMMV, "It's all an illusion, done with smoke and mirrors"

    MicCow
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    "It's all an illusion, done with smoke and mirrors"

    I go more for the fun factor per dollar. I don't think any car built today can compare with the Honda CRX when measured by FUN for the dollars spent. And if you had the HF you could have gotten 50 mpg or more as the Prius does for lots less dollars. I just don't see the progress. Oh and as far as emissions, that is a sham also. I have a good friend that owns a Smog Chek station. He told me the difference in emissions between a 1990 that is well maintained and a new car of the same size is negligible. No wonderful strides have been made in my opinion.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    I had one for about 6 months. It didn't get 50 mpg. If I remember right I averaged about 38. ; no where near 50. It was a very light , but structurely sound car and wasn't susceptible to cross winds like the flight Prius and Echo are. But I had changed out the tires and exhaust( mainly for better sound). The HF was geared really realy high and the engine was tuned for better torque. At around 65 is was somehere around 1,800-2,000 rpm. It ran okay in town because it was light and it could go fast on the highway it just didn't have any highway acceleration power.

    It acheived much of its high mpg through gearing. If Honda would add a 6 -speed transmission with a really tall gear they could get 15-25% better highway mileage in all of their cars. You would downshift to pass. Even an automatic would work. For'ds new 6-speed auto and Chin CVT ( 0.48-5.1 gear ratio) are pretty interesting.

    YMMV,

    MidCow

    P.S- and yes the CRX Si was a fun car!
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Twenty years later, 70 HP even if it has to pull 1800 lb vehicle, isn’t enough! That’s a weight to power ratio of 26:1, something you would get in Jazz if it came with the fuel thrift 1.3 i-DSI with 86 HP and 2200 lb. curb weight.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The progress in fuel efficiency and cost stem from several major improvements in technology: The ESX3's mild hybrid electric (or "mybrid") powertrain combines a clean, efficient diesel engine, electric motor and state-of-the-art lithium-ion battery to achieve an average 72 miles per gallon (3.3 liters/100 km) fuel efficiency (gasoline equivalent). That is two miles per gallon better than the fuel efficiency of its predecessor, the ESX2 in 1998, and close to PNGV's goal of up to 80 mpg (2.9 liters/100 km).

    http://www.autointell.net/nao_companies/daimlerchrysler/dodge/dod- ge-esx3-01.htm
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    The law of physics can not be overcome. Cars are MUCH more reliable than they were in 1949 (appears you're still living in that era). Deaths on our highways are being LOWERED every year because of the safety built in today's cars. Get with the program old man . :))))
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    Oh Boy!! I can really relate to some of the cars from the past. One in particular was the 1st Honda sold in the USA back at the turn of the 70's. Only two models...the 600 coupe and the 600 sedan. They were amazing cars for several reasons:One was the aircooled 600cc engine (developed from the CB450 Honda motorcycle powerplant). It could out perform the V.W. Bug and deliver very near 50mpg.
    Also the car was incredibly small on the outside but considerably roomier than that same VW Bug on the inside. Two more notes about this near hybrid performer was it could produce heat on a cold day almost instantainiously and if you got stuck in a snow drift one healthy individual could get out and lift one end then the other to become roadable again. Believe it!! Funny thing I also remember about the 600. Honda never advertised the car except in car mags. No TV. No Newspaper. I guess their cycles said it all.
    I now own a Prius 04 and as much as I enjoyed that little Honda, my Prius has taken me to another level in an era that demands more from a car....AC,p.wndows, cruise,p.dr.locks, etc.
    Culliganman (memories of old)
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Deaths on our highways are being LOWERED every year because of the safety built in today's cars. Get with the program old man . :))))

    Two reasons. More people buckle up and they are buying safer SUV and Pickup Trucks according to the Insurance institute. My Suburban has a 41 rating for personal injury from the IIHS, how about your vehicle. Plus it is very reliable. Not a bit of trouble after 6 & 1/2 years.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Generally speaking, yes. Although not a linear relationship but we have noticed an improvement in performance with improved fuel economy. That also happens to be a part of the equation being addressed by a vehicle like Accord Hybrid, continuing a theme of added performance with improved fuel economy.

    1995-1997 Accord V6 was nothing to brag about, in terms of fuel economy (19/25 mpg) and performance (170 HP). 1998-2002 Accord V6 took it a step further (20/28 mpg, 200 HP). And 2003-2004 Accord V6 is even better (21/30 mpg, 240 HP). Next comes 2005 Accord V6-Hybrid (30/37 mpg, 255 HP). So, it does happen!

    And this, with additional weight and much improved safety!
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    Wow! Where are you getting your info from? Trucks and SUV's are notorious for severe accidents especially ROLLOVERS. Seldom do you see hatchbacks, sedans sport models involved in those types of accidents. Of course if a 7000 lb vehicle collides with a 3000 lb car it stands to reason the larger one will fare better BUT, if that same 7000lb vehicle collides with a SEMI I don't think there's any question as to the out come.
    One last thing....A hybrid car is just like any other car....Drive frugely and get the best possible MPG's....Drive like a jackrabbit and watch those MPG's go down hill. Those who want a stickshift in a PRIUS, well tsk tsk. Go get a sportscar. Not only is the Prius automatic, it doesn't even shift as conventional automatics thanks to Toyota's "CVT" transmission.
    Culliganman
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Hey Railroad you said:

    "Those who want a stickshift in a PRIUS, well tsk tsk. Go get a sportscar. Not only is the Prius automatic, it doesn't even shift as conventional automatics thanks to Toyota's "CVT" transmission.
    Culliganman "

    What is wrong with wanting a stick-shift?
    Indirectly, you are saying the Prius isn't a sportscar. With you, on that point, I agree.

    A sportscar has performance, braking, and agile nimble handling.

    Addtionally some want low NHV and high mpg.

    Maybe, that's why there are so many vehicles to choose from because everyone has different requirements.

    It woul be interesting to note the root cause of many accidents. It seems that intoxication (alcohol, illegal and perscription drugs) is on the decline, speed, distractions (cell phone, NAV systems, controls, etc.), faulty equipment, road rage, driver error.

    But I certainly agree with you weight can be a factor in causing more damage. I think many insurance companies are beginning to realize this and are rightly so, penalyzing the owners of the destruction causing behmoths.

    YMMV, There is no perfect vehicle, at least not for me!

    MidCow
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    The Future of Hybrid Vehicles:

    http://www.mb.com.ph/MTRG2004102921453.html
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    Actually we agree on several things and much of our past cars are worthy of fond memories. I agree that a stick is more enjoyable than an automatic USUALLY! One exception that convenced me was being stuck in Chicagoland traffic too many times and developing an enlarged left thigh. So... I decided that with less and less country driving to be done, my next car would have to make dealing with stop & go (pain in the fanny)driving more tollerable. I secumed to the PRIUS. Needless to say that it has made me more than satisfied.
    Lastly, when I long for a feel of the road I stradle my legs over my 87 Honda Magna for that everlasting thrill of the road. Running thru the gears and feeling the wind in my face. I sometimes miss my old Corvette but then don't we all miss our favorite buggies.
    Culliganman (miss some of the ol' days)
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Member Posts: 5,525
    Seems like you've been a big fan of motor bikes, and at the same time admire series hybrid powertrain. Honda may have have just the thing for you ;-)

    image
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    That is COOOOOOOLLLLLL are they in production?
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    COOL!! I Like It!! One more step in the hybrid world. Two wheels that deliver. Hybrid cars, bikes
    and whatever the future holds. HYBRID IS HERE TO STAY. The sky's the limit!
    Culliganman(happy trails)
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    I know (?) the Honda scooter shown above was meant as a joke but Honda is covering all their bases and planing for the future while the GMs of the world are busy cranking out silly urban vehicles that we'll all get to pay for -snip - General Motors Corp. has told more than 9,000 workers at five plants that primarily make SUVs and pickups that they will be laid off for a week or more early next year as the company continues to reduce production of its vehicles. That is in addition to the indefinite layoff of 900 workers in Pontiac disclosed by GM last week.

    http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/gm28e_20041028.htm
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    You really should wander over to the "Why do I hate SUVs" forum. You would have some company with your fringe views on what others should drive.

    li_sailor "I don't like SUVs, why do you?" Oct 28, 2004 7:20pm
  • railroadjamesrailroadjames Member Posts: 560
    Since this is supposed to be about the "Future of Hybrids", I don't see how we can discuss their future without the indenyable "Death of the Guzzlers". Why else would the technology be so obviously moving toward cars that are safe, reliable, and thrifty.
    I told this story b/4 about 2 months ago pulling into a gas station next to a woman getting out of a HUMMER. We noticed each others cars. She was aware of my PRIUS as I was her HUMMER. We filled up. I was done at $14.22 (7.8gal) She was going strong at $74.00 on the premium grade as I left with a SMILE. When do they learn. Or Will They?
    Culliganman ( older & wiser)
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Administrator Posts: 11,148
    Some off-topic posts have been removed. Gagrice provided a link to the appropriate topic in which to discuss your feelings about SUVs. Please note that you're about 61,000 posts late to that show, but that's the place to continue.

    kirstie_h
    Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

    MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Some off-topic posts have been removed.

    I'll try to stay on the topic. You know how we go off on a tangent from time to time....
This discussion has been closed.

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles