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The Future of Hybrid Technology
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Thanks for the links
Check out this test drive of the Dodge Durango hybrid. What happened to it?
http://www.edmunds.com/news/innovations/articles/46970/article.ht- ml
said" Midnight...You're in the dark if you think that our existing problems were attributed to the railroads .."
No you mistook what I was saying. I was saying that at the time railroads thought they wer invincible and would never be replaced by automobiles...
I think that is the same attitude being exhibited by Toyota with their Prius, and soon there will be alternatives and Toyota's haughtiness will result in a significant loss of future vechicle sales.
Cheers,
MidCow
Remember, it's the DEALERS who are charging more than MSRP, not Toyota coporate....
Okay, for the moment they have a popular car in limited supply without any real competitive alternatives. Again , I say for the moment . The can command MSRP or higher, that is basic economics, the law of supply and demand; that is okay!. However treating the customer with disrespect and being discourteous is not acceptable. Toyota is starting a trend toward losing customers for life, because the customers they run off are not likely to ever come back. This is just not good business marketing practice, there is not an unlimited supply of new car buyers.
YMMV,
MidCow.
This is widespread, and is happening only because of the Prius situation?
I was mistreated (they made my wife cry) and lied to at a Toyota dealer back in 2000. This is the same dealership who was asking $5000 premium on 2004 Priuses also.
I think individual acts of customers getting trated badly ad lied to is not new and has nothing to do with the Prius or Toyota - it's just the way some of those people do business.
Culliganman (just a friend)
"Kerry is offering to raise the hybrids' tax credit to $5,000, and he would give $10 billion over four years in tax breaks to U.S. automakers to help them retool factories for cars and trucks that get high fuel efficiency.
Bush says he would raise the hybrid credit to $4,000, although no such action was taken in a large tax bill he signed Friday, and the credit is scheduled to be phased out by 2007. Bush would not give tax breaks directly to the auto firms for switching to hybrid production."
"Steaming into the future"
Chronology of hybrid vehicle production:
-- Honda: Insight hatchback -- 1999
-- Toyota: Prius sedan* -- 2000
-- Honda: Civic sedan -- 2002
-- General Motors/Allison: city bus** -- 2003
-- Ford: Escape SUV -- Sept. 2004
-- Chevrolet: Silverado pickup -- Oct. 2004
-- GMC: Sierra pickup -- Oct. 2004
-- Honda: Accord sedan -- Dec. 2004
-- Toyota/Lexus: RX400h SUV -- early 2005
-- Toyota: Highlander SUV -- early 2005
-- Saturn: VUE crossover SUV -- 2006
-- Nissan: Altima sedan -- 2006
-- Chevrolet: Malibu sedan -- 2006
-- Mercury: Mariner SUV -- 2007
-- Chevrolet: Tahoe SUV -- 2007
-- GMC: Yukon SUV -- 2007
-- Ford: Fusion sedan -- 2007
* substantially revised in 2004
** diesel-electric hybrid.
Sources: Booz Allen Hamilton, Chronicle research
Correction: they are tax deductions from what I read, rather than a tax credit. And the latest bill signed left the $2,000 tax deduction in place for another year. I believe it will go to $500 in 2006. This is the last big corporate giveaway (see link) that went for nothing. NO incentives are needed. Set the standards for emissions and let the automakers figure it out.
http://ev1-club.power.net/archive/031219/jpg/after2.htm
I agree. I think a tax credits for energy saving cars is a better way to encourage energy conservation, than giving out more corporate welfare.
Clean? Not clean enough for US emission standard. LSD turbo diesel might need to add hybrid option to reach legal emission standard.
"What is it they don't get you ask? Performance If you focus only on "green" you lose. If you focus only on "high economy" you lose."
RX400H completely disagree with you. If you are waiting for the perfect hybrid that suit your taste, you are going to have to do more of the same; wait longer. Please, don't "sour grape" to those buyers that suit for Prius taste. BTW, I am in the same boat as you.
Dennis
LOL.
"all other Toyotas except the Corolla 4 cylinder auto and almost all SUVs and Trucks can out accelrate the Prius."
In your standard metric of measurment? Prius is faster than 4-cyl Camry auto in 30-50mph. Release that tunnel vision.
"Let's face it the Prius is slow! slow!"
That depends on where you live. In Europe, 0-60 in 11 sec is above average performance. What is your defination of slow? slow=not fast?
Dennis
People buy hybrids because they fear, uncertain and doubful? LOL. 04' Prius sale took off with waiting list before the gas prices went up.
Dennis
The Europeans drive a lot faster than we do. I don't think the Prius will cut the grade over there, where they expect a car to run at 125 mph on the highway. And every test I see from the UK lists the 0-60 or 0-62 times. It is rare to see a car slower than 10 seconds.
The Prius sales took off after certain Hollywood types like DiCaprio drove them to big events. I imagine they were given to them as a PR gimmick and it worked.
Culliganman (hi -railer)
"Getting back to the PRIUS. Just remember what you like best in a car and see if the Prius delivers. "
Therein lies my problem. The feature I like best in a car above all others is: "Manual Transmission"
Therein lies the rub, I think the Prius is outstanding otherwise. I could learn to live with the slow acceleration , non-leather, non-power seats, average JBL radio sound and the tepid handling. but I can not and will not live without a MANUAL SHIFT car.
I noticed today on the radio, that Toyota is trying to spur up the sales on their most popular car the Corolla by upping the rebate on new 2005 models to $1,000 for ALL Corolla including the XRS performance version. By the way the Corolla offers a 5-speed manual shift in the CE,SE, LE models and a 6-speed in the XRS model.
YMMV, cognitive dissonance : want both performance and high mpg
MidCow
Alas, me matey, I fears you ask too much of the Laws of Physics and 2004 Technology !!
That is a sad state of affairs. I remember in the mid 1980s the Honda CRX that performed great and got great mileage. Too bad we have fallen so far behind in the last 20 years.
My My how our perceptions change. I remember the Mustang High Performance with a 271Hp 289 cu in V8. It only had a time of 0-60 of 7.5 seconds. But in the mid-sixties it was wickedly fast.
Yes, I too had a CRX in 1985. If fact I had two within a year. I started with a HF, then repalced it with the 1.5 Liter 91 horsepoer SI. It was fast , fun and sporty and I believe was rated at 32/36 anyway I got over 30 mpg all the time. Now the reality check, the 0-60 mph time was 8.5 seconds. That is pretty slow today about equal to the average v6 auto sedan performance. unless you measure in PPUs. But back in the mid 80s to late 80s it seemed fast and fun.
PPUs (Prius Performance Units, the new standard of green performance). One PPU is 0-60 in 10.5 seconds The way PPU is measured is by dividing the evaluated car's 0-60 MPH time by the Prius standard) For example in PPUs the following are some examples:
Walking slow 3 miles per hour 1/4 mile in 5 minutes (300 seconds) 300/10.5 = 28.6
Jetta TDI auto (14 seconds) = (14/10.5) =1.333
Prius= (10.5/10.5) 1.0
CRX si= (8.5/10.5)= .81 average car today
HAH (6.0/10.5)= .57
Corvette (4.5/10.5)= .43
SOL ~= 0
So if you are greater than 1 then bad ,bad performance, .81 about noraml for sedans/coupes, .57 perfromance and .43 and less exotics.
YMMV, "It's all an illusion, done with smoke and mirrors"
MicCow
I go more for the fun factor per dollar. I don't think any car built today can compare with the Honda CRX when measured by FUN for the dollars spent. And if you had the HF you could have gotten 50 mpg or more as the Prius does for lots less dollars. I just don't see the progress. Oh and as far as emissions, that is a sham also. I have a good friend that owns a Smog Chek station. He told me the difference in emissions between a 1990 that is well maintained and a new car of the same size is negligible. No wonderful strides have been made in my opinion.
It acheived much of its high mpg through gearing. If Honda would add a 6 -speed transmission with a really tall gear they could get 15-25% better highway mileage in all of their cars. You would downshift to pass. Even an automatic would work. For'ds new 6-speed auto and Chin CVT ( 0.48-5.1 gear ratio) are pretty interesting.
YMMV,
MidCow
P.S- and yes the CRX Si was a fun car!
http://www.autointell.net/nao_companies/daimlerchrysler/dodge/dod- ge-esx3-01.htm
Also the car was incredibly small on the outside but considerably roomier than that same VW Bug on the inside. Two more notes about this near hybrid performer was it could produce heat on a cold day almost instantainiously and if you got stuck in a snow drift one healthy individual could get out and lift one end then the other to become roadable again. Believe it!! Funny thing I also remember about the 600. Honda never advertised the car except in car mags. No TV. No Newspaper. I guess their cycles said it all.
I now own a Prius 04 and as much as I enjoyed that little Honda, my Prius has taken me to another level in an era that demands more from a car....AC,p.wndows, cruise,p.dr.locks, etc.
Culliganman (memories of old)
Two reasons. More people buckle up and they are buying safer SUV and Pickup Trucks according to the Insurance institute. My Suburban has a 41 rating for personal injury from the IIHS, how about your vehicle. Plus it is very reliable. Not a bit of trouble after 6 & 1/2 years.
1995-1997 Accord V6 was nothing to brag about, in terms of fuel economy (19/25 mpg) and performance (170 HP). 1998-2002 Accord V6 took it a step further (20/28 mpg, 200 HP). And 2003-2004 Accord V6 is even better (21/30 mpg, 240 HP). Next comes 2005 Accord V6-Hybrid (30/37 mpg, 255 HP). So, it does happen!
And this, with additional weight and much improved safety!
One last thing....A hybrid car is just like any other car....Drive frugely and get the best possible MPG's....Drive like a jackrabbit and watch those MPG's go down hill. Those who want a stickshift in a PRIUS, well tsk tsk. Go get a sportscar. Not only is the Prius automatic, it doesn't even shift as conventional automatics thanks to Toyota's "CVT" transmission.
Culliganman
"Those who want a stickshift in a PRIUS, well tsk tsk. Go get a sportscar. Not only is the Prius automatic, it doesn't even shift as conventional automatics thanks to Toyota's "CVT" transmission.
Culliganman "
What is wrong with wanting a stick-shift?
Indirectly, you are saying the Prius isn't a sportscar. With you, on that point, I agree.
A sportscar has performance, braking, and agile nimble handling.
Addtionally some want low NHV and high mpg.
Maybe, that's why there are so many vehicles to choose from because everyone has different requirements.
It woul be interesting to note the root cause of many accidents. It seems that intoxication (alcohol, illegal and perscription drugs) is on the decline, speed, distractions (cell phone, NAV systems, controls, etc.), faulty equipment, road rage, driver error.
But I certainly agree with you weight can be a factor in causing more damage. I think many insurance companies are beginning to realize this and are rightly so, penalyzing the owners of the destruction causing behmoths.
YMMV, There is no perfect vehicle, at least not for me!
MidCow
http://www.mb.com.ph/MTRG2004102921453.html
Lastly, when I long for a feel of the road I stradle my legs over my 87 Honda Magna for that everlasting thrill of the road. Running thru the gears and feeling the wind in my face. I sometimes miss my old Corvette but then don't we all miss our favorite buggies.
Culliganman (miss some of the ol' days)
and whatever the future holds. HYBRID IS HERE TO STAY. The sky's the limit!
Culliganman(happy trails)
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/gm28e_20041028.htm
li_sailor "I don't like SUVs, why do you?" Oct 28, 2004 7:20pm
I told this story b/4 about 2 months ago pulling into a gas station next to a woman getting out of a HUMMER. We noticed each others cars. She was aware of my PRIUS as I was her HUMMER. We filled up. I was done at $14.22 (7.8gal) She was going strong at $74.00 on the premium grade as I left with a SMILE. When do they learn. Or Will They?
Culliganman ( older & wiser)
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