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Run-flat, self-sealing, PAX tires for Minivans

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Comments

  • odymikeodymike Member Posts: 23
    Look - and please take this free advice from me to you. If you are going to buy a 2008 Odyssey Touring...and if PAX is an option (vs. standard 2005 - 2007) - you would be a fool to get/pay for PAX tires. They are not ready for prime time. Until many, many cars come standard with them - the support structure will lag. Even Honda dealers will not be able to help you if their trained people aren't working at the time - and forget Sunday.

    And as far as actually driving on a flat PAX tire - not a good idea. I have done this - it is not fun (about 45 miles). To be honest, I would equate it to driving a train. Feels like you have no suspension, loud, very loud, hard to drive, pulls - not a good idea. This system is meant for emergencies, not to hold you over until someone can fix them.

    When you get a flat - you have two options 1. If close to home - drive home and call Michelin. 2. If not, call Michelin and go to the nearest retailer, and pray they are open, and willing to fix it. Else, hope there is a nearby hotel and fast food chain - you are going to need them.
  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    You ever been to Europe? As a general rule, the surfaces of their roads are far superior to ours and as such, those with RFTs (still a very tiny minority by the way) won't feel the negative ride characteristics as often or as harshly as we will over here.

    There are a couple of other reasons why Europe has more RFT usage:

    1) They don't have the widely separated cities and towns of the USA and Canada. Low run-flat driving range (50 to 100 miles) isn't a problem over there. Meanwhile, if you have a flat in any number of US locations west of the Rockies, you'd be hard-pressed to find a replacement on-hand or even same-day.

    2) The USA has many more SUVs and pickups in its fleet. An SUV with off-road or towing capability isn't the right sort of vehicle to go spareless with.

    3) Americans tend to prefer a softer ride than Europeans. So it isn't just a matter of road condition, it also has to do with customer preference. Harder RFT sidewalls are incompatible with this. As one who previously tuned OE automaker suspensions for a living, I can say that you can never fully recover the suppleness taken away by a stiff RFT sidewall or the huge unsprung mass penalty of a PAX.

    4) Largely because of #2 and the Firestone-Explorer debacle, Tire-Pressure Monitoring Systems (TPMS) became the main tire safety method in this hemisphere. By focusing on proper tire inflation pressure, most blowouts are prevented - reducing the compelling need for RFTs.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • dzubadzuba Member Posts: 159
    43K miles and about to replace all 4 tires. Problem is:

    Michelin at 877-PAXTIRE says to replace the Gel Packs with each tire.............

    However - I have one Honday dealer saying they don't need to be replaced (maybe that's why they only charge $900.00 for all 4, and two other Honda Dealers that say they have to be replaced (at $1300-1550 for all four)......

    Anyone not replace the inner Gel Packs or whatever they are called?

    Thanks
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Member Posts: 100
    I think the gel packs are used to lubricate the inside of the tire to reduce friction in the event the tire goes flat and runs on the support ring. I'd do what Michelin said. I'm surprised the dealer would even suggest doing anything else. The gel can't add that much cost to the job. You're there, just do it right.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Member Posts: 764
    Only $900! Please tell me your dealer is in Virginia. I can't find anybody who'll do it for under $1600.
  • dzubadzuba Member Posts: 159
    Sorry - dealer is in Chicago area............
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Member Posts: 100
    Vinnyny, you should check around to be sure there arent any non-Honda dealers who now work on PAX. The list does seem to be growing steadily. We have a couple tire places in Orlando that have PAX tires and machines. The going price around here is about $1000 for 4
  • vinnynyvinnyny Member Posts: 764
    Thanks for the advice. We've got only two Honda dealers in town and neither has the PAX gear. At this point, I'm just hoping the tires hold up long enough for Honda to replace them free or I trade the van.
  • rv65rv65 Member Posts: 1,076
    There will be pax on the 08 touring. Just as an option.
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Member Posts: 100
    Vinny, now that's what burns me and is the only real complaint I have about these PAX tires. How can Honda sell a product they don't truly support? When they first rolled this out in 05 the literature said ALL 1000 Honda Dealers in the U.S. and 200 select Michelin dealers would be full equiped to support this product. Several years later it's still not true. I love teh PAX, but I hope this Class Action suit gets traction and makes HOnda pay for this mistake. I don't hold Michelin as responsible for this as Honda.
  • dpatel1dpatel1 Member Posts: 8
    This one in Kentucky -
    http://productliability.law360.com/Members/ViewArticlePortion.aspx?Id=27502&Retu- rnUrl=..%2fsecure%2fViewArticle.aspx%3fId%3d27502

    Anyone know how long these types of things can drag on, and if/when Honda will respond?
  • lechardlechard Member Posts: 2
    I agree wholeheartedly with you. My 2005 Odyssey Touring has just 13,000 miles and the tech told me I would be needing needing 3 new PAX tires at a cost of $1250. The tire tread ranges from 1/8 inch to 3/16 inch and I have my tires rotated every 6000 miles. (One tire is new as a result of a hit and run sideswipe.) When I questioned the price, the Service Advisor said they had to be replaced "in kind" and there is no way to put other rims and tires on this model. Anyone know if this is true? I can't see replacing these tires every 15,000 miles at $400+ per tire.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    If you read back in this thread you'll find that several folks have bought third party wheels that will accept the TPMS sensors and then mounted conventional GFTs on said rims. They were also able to buy a spare tire and jack combo for the lesser Odysseys and store them in the empty spare tire well.

    To the best of my knowledge, no Honda dealer will sanction such a swap, however, apparently it works quite well.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Member Posts: 100
    They can take years dPatel1. It all depends on how strong the case is. Often they don't make it to trial and that shortens the duration.

    I haven't had any problems YET with my PAX tires, but I've been watching the issue evolve. The original class action suit filled in March was thrown out in California court recently on grounds that they didn't prove the argument of "false advertising". I think it was more due to a screw up by the lawyers and how they filed the action. I'm sure they will be back to try again. Also, as you pointed out. There are other lawsuits springing up. No rule says you can't have more then one simultaneous lawsuit going on.

    American Honda Corporation is a California company. California has a very consumer friendly group of laws called the California Legal Remedies Act. No doubt, any of these lawsuits will be filed in CA rather then the plantiffs home state.

    In the meantime, the pressures of these pending lawsuits has already had a positive effect. It's forced Honda to make PAX tires optional on the Honda Odyssey for 08. That's good news for the consumer. Whether you like them or not (I like them), choice is always a good thing
  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    When I questioned the price, the Service Advisor said they had to be replaced "in kind" and there is no way to put other rims and tires on this model. Anyone know if this is true?

    It is true if you want to preserve the run-flat system you paid for. PAX tires put you in a monopoly situation. You are locked in to one choice of tire made by only one tire maker, and it is an expensive choice that, by many reports, doesn't last very long.

    But in a strict sense, what the service advisor said is not true if you are willing to lose the run-flat feature. Honda does not authorize or facilitate the following workable solution, and goes as far as telling people it will void their warranty: Replace the wheels with standard inch-sized wheels that are compatible with the TPMS sensors (see earlier posts) and buy a jack and regular spare tire and wheel.

    It's Michelin TRX all over again. Back in the 80's, Ford bought into an oddball non-standard wheel design scheme for a year or two. They were not run-flats, but the metric-diameter tires were an expensive monopoly come replacement time (and they didn't last long). Thousands replaced their wheels to get the ability to choose cheaper tires that performed better and wore longer.

    This time around there are more costs, complexity and complications involved. And since the run-flat feature, TPMS software settings and unique suspension settings are involved, Honda comes down against such a change. In the old TRX case, only cosmetic and replacement cost issues were in play, so Ford dealers were able to make the swap at point of sale.

    You might say it this way: Sony is to BetaMax as Odyssey is to PAX.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • richardlrichardl Member Posts: 9
    Thankyou for the reply Shipo, I guess I did not look back far enough. I will look into the third party tires. I am, quite frankly, surprised that not many are having the wear problem that I have, since I take good car of my car with oil changes and tire rotations per dealer recommendations, and I am not a "hard" driver. I do however live in a hilly region of the country and this may expllain some of the wear problem. At some point though, Michelin and Honda are going to have to come clean on the tread wear issue.
  • richardlrichardl Member Posts: 9
    Thanks Actualsize, for the reply. Since my post, I have another Honda dealership offering 2 tires @545.71 broken down as follows: Tires $206.55 x 2 = $413.10. Add Mounting & Balancing @ $84.98, Gel Paks @ $37.64, Weights @ $5.99, Tax @ $2.00, and Discard Fee for old tires @ $2.00 = $132.61, when added to the cost of the tires = $545.71. I guess after reading the other stories, this doesn't sound that bad. I just wish it was for a 40,000 mile tire and not a 15,000 - 20,000 mile tire.
  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    Not as bad as other stories, to be sure. Those prices are about as low as I've heard from anyone. But that's still over a grand for a set of four.

    Your Odyssey is generating tire replacement bills, on a cost and frequency basis, that put it on par with a Porsche 911.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Your Odyssey is generating tire replacement bills, on a cost and frequency basis, that put it on par with a Porsche 911."

    Now that's a perspective I hadn't considered before. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • jwh2ojwh2o Member Posts: 3
    I think I am done with the PAX tire system. I have watched the discussions on these tires since I bought my 2006 Odyssey Touring. I always kept my tire pressures at around 37psi and I always rotated the tires at 5k intervals. Now I need 4 new tires. I went to the Honda dealership and they were clueless about any problems. Then I called Michelin and they said that they would cover 50% of the cost of the tires. Well I still would have a bill for $919.09 every 22k miles. I think they think these is acceptable. There nuts, it's a minivan, not a Ferrari. Tires should cost $600 every 35k-40k. The run flats offer no peace of mind(very few dealer locations have the equipment to replace them)I refuse to stay on these pace of spending these kind of $ for tires for a minivan. I am going to get 4 aftermarket rims, tires, TPMS and still be ahead of the game.
    Good luck to the rest of the Touring owners
    JW
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Tires should cost $600 every 35k-40k."

    Would you believe about $500 every 60,000 to 80,000 miles?

    Based upon a lively tire discussion on a different minivan related board, the one top notch minivan tire that is available in the size that you'll be needing (i.e. 235/65 R16) is the Yokohama AVID TRZ, which is $102 per from TireRack.com and has an 80,000 mile treadlife warranty. Not too shabby.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    good point.

    i think if the owner plans on keeping the vehicle to 150K, and if needing replacement every 22K or so, asking an owner to fork out an additional $6,000 + on an already expensive optioned vehicle (and that's with a tire manufacturer's concession of 50% and the inconvenience of finding a store that can work with the product) is asking for too much.
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Member Posts: 100
    No magic tires exist. If you want 80k tread life then you'll sacrifice performance and handling. It's all on what you want. This is not a comment on the extra cost of replacing PAX tires when they wear out. I'm just saying that tires are like any other product. There's trade offs in characteristics versus cost. For me, I'll take a more expensive and better performing tire any day of the week. It's one of the most important features on the car related to safety right up there with side air backs and 4 wheel disk brakes. The Mich MXM4 tires are one of the better grand touring tires on the market. Those other tires you guyes are comparing it to are considered "standard" tires and not even close in their performance ratings. Look it up.

    By the way, Michelin makes MXM4 tires in non-pax version as well. Their wear characteristics are about the same as the PAX version. It's not run-flat differences that are causing them to wear out at 40k miles. It's just the nature of a performance grand touring tire.

    I guess my main point is; be careful to compare apples to apples and be sure you understand what you give up for extra tread life. As I said in the beginning of this post; there's no magic tire out there.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I've got to take issue with that post of yours. There are a number of newer tires on the market that do in fact offer extended tread life and decent performance. The tires that I'm referring to are NOT cheapie OEM tires and in fact, they almost always have better performance (i.e. ride, handling, noise and foul weather grip) that the rubber that comes from the factory on most cars.

    Regarding the specific 235/65 R16 tires that I believe are typically used to replace the PAX tires, TireRack.com lists nine All-Season offerings, none of which are the MXM4s you are referring to. Said another way, TireRack indicates that the Michelin Energy LX4s are the OEM rubber on the Odyssey EX, and as such, those are the ones that should be compared against.

    With the above in mind, the LX4s carry a very mediocre rating, ranking well below the less expensive Yokohama AVID TRZ in virtually every category.

    Regarding the Michelin MXM4s that you referred to, I am assuming that you are discussing the Michelin Pilot HX MXM4. Yes, no? FWIW, there isn't even a single 16" or 17" offering in that tire that is of sufficient diameter to keep the speedometer on an Odyssey accurate. Even if there were, these tires aren't rated very well either; in fact, they carry a satisfaction rating even lower than the LX4s.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • user777user777 Member Posts: 3,341
    yeah, everything Shipo said...

    my only point was it's likely you can get a much much much (...) better deal going non-PAX along a number of dimensions of your (or my) choosing.
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Are you saying the dealer wants $1838.18 ($919.09 times 2) for a set of four?

    If so, check with some other stores because that price is high.

    Are there any run-flats that cost $125 each?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Are there any run-flats that cost $125 each?"

    Yes, less actually. A great many BMW owners with non Sport Suspension cars have found that by switching to the lesser expensive Continental ContiProContact SSR (when compared to the Bridgestone Turanza EL42 RFT), they eliminate virtually all objections to the RFTs save the fact that their cars have neither a spare tire or a place to store one. So, "How much", you ask? From TireRack they're $111 each in the 205/55 R16 size (as opposed to $181 for the Bridgestones).

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    But they don't fit on PAX wheels...

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Agreed. I never meant to suggest they did. Sorry about that. For the moment at least, the PAX system is a Michelin monopoly, for better or worse. :P

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • ncdoctorncdoctor Member Posts: 3
    I've the same experience that many have talked about....19K miles on my wifes 2005 Touring Oddyssey and looking at a $1000 bill for tires!

    I'm not going to do this once (or twice). Can anyone give me definitive (brand and model numbers) information on which third party wheels will accept the TPMS sensors and which tire/wheel combinations will give the correct speedometer readings and a safe/good ride. I need to act on this fast as the tires are quickly going bald.

    Also, can I put a real full sized spare in the spare compartment (ie-buying 5 vs. 4)

    Thanks,

    ncdoctor
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Member Posts: 100
    Sorry shipo, I thought the Odyssey touring was using the same MXM4 grade PAX tires that are on the Acura RL. That tire is a 245 18.1" tire. It's based off the MXM4 245-17 tires that they use for the non-pax version. It's basically the same tire, just slightly larger.

    Regardless, my main point is that most of the posters are focused just on tread life. You too. I just want to make the point that there's more to consider when considering tires (or at least their should be). As I said before, there's no magic tire. Yokohama hasn't discovered a secret rubber compound formula that has eluded everyone else. Softer rubber = more grip and better handling/stopping. Choose which you want. For me, I go for the best performing tire I can get. It has saved me from a few accidents in my life and more then paid for itself. Again, this is aside from the PAX issue. Yes, the pax tires are more expensive to replace but there's nothing odd about getting 30-40k miles on a tire.

    For the guy who said he had 19k miles on his tire and they are just about bald; First, get them off of there sooner rather then later. You're putting yourself. Shipo mentioning TireRack. Here's a video sponsored by Tirerack that shows how drastic tire performance changes as a tire wears -- any tire. Remember this when you are choosing your tire and consider more then tread life.

    http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/includes/min_tread_vid.jsp

    Second, find out what is going on that caused the tires to wear 50% faster. The vast majority of Ody owners are getting at least 30k and many are over 40k. I'd bring it back to HOnda and have them do a full 4 wheel alignment and check your suspension. It may have nothing to do with PAX. Check any tire forum. You'll see people complain about premature tire wear on every make and model. There's nothing unique about seeing premature tire wear on these tires. There's usually a reason related to the car itself. The difference here is that these tires have a special "doughnut" inside for run flat driving and they cost more to replace. Everyone is assuming that's the problem and these forums amplify that thinking.

    By the way, that CLRA class action lawsuit on the PAX tires was thrown out of California court last month on the grounds there was not enough evidence. Gee, no kidding. At least it seemed to force Honda to start making the PAX tires optional. That's a good outcome because it gives people more choice.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Sorry shipo, I thought the Odyssey touring was using the same MXM4 grade PAX tires that are on the Acura RL. That tire is a 245 18.1" tire. It's based off the MXM4 245-17 tires that they use for the non-pax version. It's basically the same tire, just slightly larger."

    I assume that you meant "just a slightly larger wheel size" (i.e. 18.1" versus 18.0"). Yes, no? ;-)

    As a point of reference, the Michelin web site states that the OEM PAX tires for the Odyssey Touring is the Michelin LX4 in the size of "235-710R460A 104T" and has a total diameter of ~28".

    "Regardless, my main point is that most of the posters are focused just on tread life. You too. I just want to make the point that there's more to consider when considering tires (or at least their should be)."

    Uhhh, I wouldn't exactly call that a fair statement. When I shop for tires I specifically shop for the best performing set for the dollar I'm willing to spend. By "performing" I mean, steering wheel response, handling, and grip regardless of whether the road is wet, dry or covered with ice and snow. For the sport sedans that I've owned, I equip them with two sets of tires, a sticky summer set and a heavily siped winter set. For our minivans I look for a good performing all-season set of rubber that out performs the OEM rubber in all areas except ride compliance and tread noise, neither of which I care about.

    Why the double standard? Simple, I drive the sport sedans much harder that I drive the minivans.

    Going back to my original set of posts on this subject; based on every test that I've read about these tires (not to mention a fair amount of personal experience), there are three tires currently on the market that are manufactured in the proper sizes for late model minivans, and these three offer superior "performance" to virtually every OEM minivan tire from every manufacturer. So, what are the chosen three (in alphabetic order)?

    1) Goodyear Assurance TripleTred
    2) Michelin HydroEdge
    3) Yokohama AVID TRZ

    All three of the above tires offer superior "performance" to the OEM tires that come on the Honda Odysseys (i.e. Bridgestone Turanza EL42 and Michelin LX4 (both PAX and non-PAX)), unfortunately (from a choice perspective) for Odyssey owners only the Yokohamas are available in the 235/65 R16 size which has the proper ~28" overall diameter to keep the speedometer accurate.

    Now, to your other points about higher performing tires, yes, it is certainly possible to mount a set of performance tires on an Odyssey, but it ain't cheap. I dug around a bit and came up with a set of wheels and tires (oddly enough the same set of tires I had on my last car) that would provide exceptional summer performance, would match the nominal 28" diameter of the OEM tires, and would correctly mount on an Odyssey. Consider the following from TireRack:

    Wheels: ASA JH8 Silver w/Machined Lip -- Size: 19x8.5"
    Tires: Michelin Pilot Primacy -- Size 245/45 ZR19
    Cost: $2,156 from TireRack, plus taxes and shipping

    Regarding the video, I absolutely agree with everything it states, and FWIW, I typically replace my tires at 4mm (which is almost 5/32").

    As an aside note, I'm currently finishing up with a set of Goodyear TripleTred tires on one of our minivans and will most likely be mounting a set of Yokohama AVID TRZs as a replacement before the snow flies. The current set of tires now has about 5mm of tread depth and has some 62,000 miles on them since new. Relative to their "performance", they literally blow the OEM Michelins away in every category (I mean, it ain't even close) except road noise.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Hmmm, tough one. I know that further back in this thread there was at least one poster that stated which wheels he bought that accepted the TPMS sensors, however, I don't remember the specific make and model.

    Our fellow poster actualsize will hopefully chime in here on this one and correct me if I'm wrong, that said, I believe that the 2008 Odyssey Touring gets the same TPMS system (and has the same sensors) as the older Touring models regardless of whether the PAX system was optioned or not. Assuming that is correct then it would seem that your absolute best bet would be to buy a set of non-PAX Honda OEM wheels for the 2008 Odyssey Touring. Make sense? ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Member Posts: 100
    I assume that you meant "just a slightly larger wheel size" (i.e. 18.1" versus 18.0"). Yes, no?

    Actually the standard MXM4's on the RL are 245 17's. The PAX version is a metric size (as you know) that equates to 18.1 inches. The Ody PAX tires are also about an inch larger in diameter then the standard tires. Not sure why they did that.

    All three of the above tires offer superior "performance" to the OEM tires that come on the Honda Odysseys (i.e. Bridgestone Turanza EL42 and Michelin LX4 (both PAX and non-PAX)), unfortunately (from a choice perspective) for Odyssey owners only the Yokohamas are available in the 235/65 R16 size which has the proper ~28" overall diameter to keep the speedometer accurate.

    I'm glad you did your homework. You certainly seem like an informed buyer. I just got the impression reading this thread that too much emphasis was only being placed on tread life. Just wanted people to consider the big picture.

    By the way, I agree about typical OEM tires. They're usually not the best choice and (for some reason) never seem to last as long as they should (PAX or no PAX). Personally, I'm convinced they are spec'd differently to save the manufacturer money. This seems to be true even with more expensive tires. I had Michelin Pilot 255/40 Z's on my 3000GT. Very soft rubber racing tires. They lasted 20k miles. I replaced them with the equivalent non-oem version and they lasted 30k (a third longer). Same car, same driver, same care and maintenance :confuse: What's up with that?

    Which illustrates my other point I was making; We all just shouldn't be so quick to blame the early wear on the PAX technology. It's only an extra doughnut inside with a special bead design. There could be other reasons for the problem. Maybe it's that same phenomena I just described. Maybe it's not that they are PAX tirs, but that they are OEM Pax tires. :confuse:
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "The Ody PAX tires are also about an inch larger in diameter then the standard tires. Not sure why they did that."

    They are? Hmmm, according to the Michelin web site, the 235-710R460A 104T sized PAX version of the Michelin LX4s that come on the Odyssey Touring models have an overall diameter of 28.0". Relative to the 235/65 R16 shod non-PAX models, according to the TireRack web site, the OEM Bridgestone EL42s have a diameter of 28.0" and the OEM Michelin LX4s come in at 27.9". According to a tire size calculator that I wrote for myself a number of years ago, the non-PAX tires should be 28.03". Did I miss something?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Member Posts: 100
    Yes, we're taling about different things. Regardless, I actually meant 2 inches in regards to the Ody. The standard diameter for the non-touring non-pax ody wheels is 16" but it's 460mm (18.1 inches) on the pax wheel. The RL has the same thing but it's 17 versus 18.1 In the case of the RL the wheel is even identical in style. They both look the same from 10 feet away.

    Answering my own question; maybe to save money they just decided to make these pax tires in one diameter so the inside doughnut is usuable for all assemblies regardless of the vehicle. 460mm (18.1inches) seems to be the size they settled on. Why they went with a metric size is beyond me. The French. They do weird things.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Member Posts: 764
    Treadwear--schmedwear. PAX tire replacement costs twice as much, is only avaialable at a select few outlets, and you may be left stranded in the middle of the desert without a spare--all contrary to what Honda dealers are/were telling consumers.

    If Honda wants to fix this debacle, they should offer to swap out PAX tires/wheels with a set of the new non-PAX tires/wheels at no cost to the original owners of 05-07 Honda Odyssey Touring models. It may cost them millions, but it may save them thousands of dedicated consumers who will go elsewhere if Honda doesn't make this right...
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Member Posts: 100
    To me that's the real issue. Availability of replacement product and easy access to service. Not even so sure the extra cost for replacement is a valid argument. It's a special tire. It costs more to replace and service. If people don't like that then just don't buy the freaken tire!

    However, it's reasonable to assume that when you buy this expensive tire, that Honda and Michelin are going to ensure there are adequate places to service and replace the tire. Michelin's own franchise stores don't service this thing. That's where a class action lawsuit should aim, NOT cost. They'll loose that "cost" argument in court for sure.
  • actualsizeactualsize Member Posts: 451
    The issue of "don't buy the freakin' tire" is at the heart of the matter. In the past, buying a Touring was the only way to get certain options that people wanted. And run-flat tires sound like a no-brainer. What people didn't know up-front was the real story of replacement cost, mileage and availability. Any one of those could be a deal killer for some. With all three, you have a situation.

    Thank goodness that this year folks have a choice (with regard to PAX) when they buy a Touring. But they are still unlikely to get the straight poop on the disadvantages of PAX from a dealer.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • spicymikeyspicymikey Member Posts: 100
    I agree. Eventhough the initial filing on that class action suit failed, I think it was instrumental in getting Honda to change behavior. As the owner of an RL with PAX (and a potential buyer of an 08 Ody) I am right there with everyone when the battle cry is - lack of service areas. For example, what if you're taking a cross country trip and get a flat in Nevada? I think there's one service center in the entire state that can accomodate you. That's not funny. Just like cell phones display their coverage map with areas subject to "roaming" charges, Michelin and Honda should fully disclose where you should and should not expect service support so you can make an informed decision. I hope they get sued to force adequate coverage.

    However, the argument about cost is a weak one and I guess I'm just getting tired of hearing people complain about it. I called my local dealer here a couple months ago and asked for the cost of new PAX tires installed. He quoted me $298 installed (in Orlando). What would it cost for comparable non-pax tires. Don't forget these pax tires are 18", the OEM tires on the not Touring Ody is 16". I guessing a comparable quality tire would be around $140-$150. Add $40/tire for installation, balancing, etc. and you're paying a premium of about $400 for the set. if you get the average 40k miles and drive the average 15k per year then that comes out to like $150 per year. That's nothing to scream bloody murder about, ASSUMING, the tires were easily replaced and serviced. Again, that's the thing that's got me pissed off.

    Lastly, I know there's people screaming that they only got 15k on the tire, but, I take that with a grain of salt. My tires are wearing normal. I have two friends with Ody Tourers that are on target to get over 40k on their tires. Every tire forum you go to has people complaining about premature tire wear. There's bunches of reasons that a tire could wear prematurely. I don't think these doughnut filled pax tires have a monopoly on that complaint.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "Lastly, I know there's people screaming that they only got 15k on the tire, but, I take that with a grain of salt. My tires are wearing normal. I have two friends with Ody Tourers that are on target to get over 40k on their tires. Every tire forum you go to has people complaining about premature tire wear. There's bunches of reasons that a tire could wear prematurely. I don't think these doughnut filled pax tires have a monopoly on that complaint."

    Admittedly the claims of premature tire wear are anecdotal, and as such, not even remotely scientific or indicative of what the real world scenario is for any given vehicle. That said, I do find it troubling that so many folks are complaining about the lifespan of their PAX tires on the Honda Odyssey. Think about it this way, I've been following minivan related forums for years and I've never heard a single premature tire wear complaint from any non-PAX equipped van, and there's a heck of a lot more of them than there are of the PAX vans.

    You brought up a point earlier about the problem not being the tires themselves per-se, but something with the alignment or the suspension. Well, to me at least that comes back to the PAX tires as they are so heavy compared to comparable GFTs that they require a different suspension.

    The way it looks to me, there are a number of different theoretical possibilities here:
    1) Given that PAX tires are more difficult to manufacture (I think I read that somewhere but am not positive), could it be that minute flaws in construction cause their tread life to be "hit and miss" with some tires going the distance and some not?
    2) Given that PAX tires are more difficult to mount, could it be that they may be prone to damage of some sort during the mounting process, damage that might reduce their life?
    3) PAX wheel and tire assemblies can weigh as much as twice that of conventional GFTs (certainly 50% more than even a heavy set). Could they be so heavy that even with the upgraded Odyssey suspension, the tires simply overpower the suspension, effectively forcing it out of alignment during some stages of the driving regimen?
    4) Could the special Odyssey PAX suspension be so difficult to correctly align that many vehicles escape the factory with a bad alignment?

    I of course don't know whether a problem even exists, however, there seem to be enough complaints that from an empirical perspective to at least warrant further research. If in fact it is found that a higher percentage (but not all) of PAX shod vehicles exhibit premature tire wear, then a closer look at the above four points might warrant a look-see too.

    Thoughts?

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Member Posts: 100
    I of course don't know whether a problem even exists, however, there seem to be enough complaints that from an empirical perspective to at least warrant further research. If in fact it is found that a higher percentage (but not all) of PAX shod vehicles exhibit premature tire wear, then a closer look at the above four points might warrant a look-see too.

    I'd be a arrogant to say it's not a possibility. But with lack of hard data (which no one seems to have) I tend to think that it's somewhat of an illusion amplified by the fact that these tires are more expensive then most and harder to service. It gets people ticked off right from the get-go. Then you add premature wear (even 10%) and people are immediately searching the internet for others to share their frustration. In most cases, someone gets premature wear on their tires and they probably just quietly get another set, get their wheels aligned, and grumble in private.

    I am a car lover and I read forums and car mags all the time. I can tell you I see this type of stuff all the time (not just here). These forums would make you think everyone is getting poor tire wear on all cars. Do a google on "premature tire wear", etc. and your screen will fill up. It's not just pax tires.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    We are approaching 31,000 miles on our 2006 Ody Touring, and I project we'll get 36~38,000 miles before the PAX tires will require replacement. And the wear is pretty even on all 4 tires. Dealer quoted me $1300 to replace all 4 tires. Looks like I'll be replacing them before yearend, just in time for some snow!

    We also have a 2005 Acura RL with standard Pilot HX MXM tires and they are not that impressive in terms of grip and road noise, but the tire wear has been excellent.

    There were lots of rumors flying around months ago that the new Accord was going to be available with PAX, but Honda's decision to not offer them on their flagship speaks volumes about the future prospect of the PAX system. It's also telling that none of the European makes in the US are offering PAX. To my knowledge, no new 2008 models offers PAX as standard or optional equipment, other than the holdovers from prior years.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Member Posts: 764
    Let's face it--the PAX experiment is a failure and we PAX owners are left holding the bag. I'd be OK with that IF Honda hadn't given me bad information. I'm not saying that Honda (not to be confused with the dealer) lied about PAX. I'm merely saying that virtually everything I was told about PAX turned out to be incorrect.

    Cost: "Only 10-15% more". Try twice as much as the BEST replacement tires available.

    Service availability: "Honda dealers will be able to service your tires". Try "Maybe one Honda dealer in most major cities will be able to service your tires".

    Security: "With PAX, you can rest assured that you won't get stuck out on the road because of a flat or road hazard." Try "As long as your tire goes flat within a few miles of a major metropolitan area during normal business hours, you might be able to find a PAX dealer who actually has a tire in stock. Otherwise, you're screwed!"

    Finally, the "Don't buy the freakin' tires" argument doesn't hold water because the only way to buy the freakin' Odyssey Touring model was with the freakin' tires. I could have (and would have) bought a different van had I known the truth about PAX. I don't hold a grudge against Honda for the mistake they made, but I will hold a grudge against them if they fail to fix the problem. If Honda doesn't step up and replace the tires, my third Odyssey will be my last.
  • ncdoctorncdoctor Member Posts: 3
    Actualsize, can you weigh-in with any information on which third party wheels will accept the TPMS sensors and which tire/wheel combinations will give the correct speedometer readings and a safe/good ride. I have a '05 touring odyssey.

    Thanks,

    ncdoctor :sick:
  • cccompsoncccompson Member Posts: 2,382
    Ok, shipo, here it is: the OEM Michelins on our '99 Odyssey lasted a crummy 29K. The PAX on our '05 are still going strong at 36K.

    In fairness, the former van was driven mostly in town while most of the miles on the latter have been over the road.
  • spicymikeyspicymikey Member Posts: 100
    OK. After talking about this on this forum (and others), I came to a conclusion. Maybe we need to stop talking and do something about this. Not about this stupid argument about cost, but the REAL argument about lack of support services across the country. This is clearly a problem and I believe Honda is liable for this mistep.

    I have a friend who used to be a defense lawyer for one of the "big 3". He's now on the other side fighting against car companies. I ran these scenerio's buy him and discussed it. He's aware of complaints and also watched the class action suit that was filed in March and recently failed. He agreed that the strongest argument is the one about the lack of adequate service facilities. In fact, he thought it was a VERY STRONG argument and agreed to look into it further if I could get individuals he could interview.

    Anyone angry enough and fed up enough to spend some time being interviewed? If so, click on my name at the top of this message, select "Visit My Carspace" near the upper left corner, then click on "Become a friend of SpicyMikey" and send me a message with your email address so we can coorespond.
  • bigdadi118bigdadi118 Member Posts: 1,207
    I found Yokohama AVID TRZ (Standard Touring All-Season) is the great tire. I will buy it again.
    For snow tires the BS Blizzard is the best choice.
  • cstilescstiles Member Posts: 465
    Regarding availability, I live in a town of 100,000 people in the middle of the corn fields in Illinois, and there are 3 Honda dealerships within an hour of me that can service PAX, including the one in my hometown. If I push the envelope out to Chicago and St. Louis (120-150 miles), there are at least 10 dealerships that can help me. And there are also independent Michelin dealers that can service PAX. I realize availability may be poor in some parts of the US, but it is not really an issue with me.

    From a safety standpoint, I am also happy with PAX.

    Tread life is just okay. I know I won't get to 40,000 miles, but I will hit the mid-30K range. I can accept that. I'm also totally baffled why some people are only getting 15K or 20K. Something is awry with those cases, obviously. I presume they are in the great minority, otherwise we would be seeing much more than the 5 or 10 complaints on these Edmunds boards. There would be a government recall/inquiry if the volume of cases reached any sort of credible level, given the fact that tens of thousands of Touring models have been sold between the 2005-2006-20007 model years.

    My main beef is with the total lack of choice and the monopoly I face with supply and demand. Being at the mercy of the dealer is always such a treat ("Mr. Stiles, bend over and say ahhhhh......"). I wish the cost of the tires would be more elastic due to competition, but everyone seems to want around $325, out the door, per tire. There isn't exactly a free market system at work here.
  • vinnynyvinnyny Member Posts: 764
    "middle of the corn fields in Illinois" Scott AFB?

    I gave a real-life example of the availability issue a few hundred posts back. Suffice to say, I was driving cross country from AZ to VA and had a blow out about 100 miles outside of El Paso. I couldn't find a replacement tire for more than 400 miles along my route and had to wait for it to be overnighted. Fortunately, it was on my BMW 330 that my brother was driving for me. I was driving the Ody. The BMW had a spare which lasted the 400 miles to Ft Worth. Had it been the Ody, my cargo would have been left to rot while I waited days(?) for a replacement tire. (Because I was curious, I verified after the fact that there were no PAX dealers in that area).
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