Toyota FJ Cruiser

callmedrfill · January 2005

   I love Mighty 'Yota! Oh what a feeling! They have blessed us with legendary cars (Supra, Lexus LS, MR2 Turbo, Celica All-Trac, Lexus SC, 2000GT, etc.) and wonderful trucks and SUVs (4Runner, Land Crusher, Tacoma, RX), but this is stepping over the line!

   February 9th, at the Chicago Auto Show, a show where automakers habitually release future production trucks to Middle America, Toyota will release what by all signs will be a PRODUCTION version of the FJ 4X4 SUV concept from last years auto circuit.

   The issue is this. Jim Press, at about this time last year, stated that the desired successor to the legendary Toyota Supra would never come, instead another truck, based on the FJ 4X4 concept would be produced. So, ipso factso, Toyota thinks you want this truck more than a Supracar! A SIXTH SUV from 'Yota (not including Lexus)!! Let's see. Six SUVs. Zero sports cars. And Toyota wants to attract younger buyers. Uh......yeah.

   This truck in particular is being labeled as a off-roader for younger buyers. So I'd have to assume this falls somewhere near XTerra's turf in competition. Why not turn the RAV4, which sells aboyut the same as Xterra, into a off-roader, and give me my love back!!!

   Some of you think 'Yota will knock off this potential LF-A concept and make a Supra from it's platform. I wouldn't bet on it. How many $125k, 500HP supercars spawn $40k, 350HP kid brothers? How many sportscars does 'Yota have in them? I say one. Why water down your supercar? Who would buy a hairier Toyota sportscar at $125k? A Lexus dealer would have nightmares justifying that!

  I could go on......how 'bout you?

  DrFill

alpha01 · January 2005

Way to jump to conclusions.

The FJ does not mean that the new Supra successor will not materialize, nor do Jim Press's one year old comments. Things change, my friend.

The RAV4 is a soft-roader that caters to a youthful market/small families that likely don't care about real off-roading. The FJ would appeal to those who do.

Whats the issue?

More choices = a good thing.

If you want a sports car, why does it have to be a Toyota?

~alpha

callmedrfill · January 2005

They've proven they would make the best! Period.

We need another SUV like we need another McDonald's!

DrFill

nippononly · January 2005

Dr Fill, we NEED Toyota to bring out this FJ! If it is everything it appeared to be in the concept a while back, it will be the first dirt-worthy covered truck from Toyota since they went and mommy-fied the 4Runner. HL, RAV? No way I would take either of those off a level graded road.

OTOH, here is a truck-based two-door with an actual back seat, and a decent engine to go with it! The S/C 3.4 from the two-years-ago concept truck will not make it to the light of day, I don't think. Not since they stopped using it in favor of the new 4.0L in the Tacoma for '05. If they could just manage to keep some of the weight out of the FJ, I would even be satisfied with the 2.7L 4-cyl from the Tacoma. Just make sure it has available stick shift and a 2-speed transfer case.

Supra, Schmupra. I loved the old Supra as much as anybody, but the market is flooded with affordable fast cars (including some VERY fast cars). OTOH, as you point out, the Xterra is just about the only thing out there right now in this category of one.

callmedrfill · January 2005

Xterra sales have peaked at about 75k.

  Now you wanna split that pie with a TWO-DOOR SUV? Por que?

  I know America loves trucks, but when you have 5 SUV's, and 2 Crew Cab P/U's, give it a rest, ok?

  RAV4 sales have waned, throw money into that!

  That's my beef. I don't have a problem with the truck, but why invest in it? How many 2-door SUV's last here in America? Wasn't the 4Runner a 2-door? What happened?

  Bronco? Vehicross? Amigo? Cherokee? RamCharger?

  Haven't we fallen down this flight of stairs before? (Every year, Gus, your wife rips down the steps!)



  And, as I said before, they want to get younger, but they will sell NO sports cars, WHEN THERE IS A MARKET FOR THEM?

  If they won't sell one NOW.....

  DrFill

nippononly · January 2005

I hear you, but I suspect that if it makes it to the street, the FJ will have 2 and 4-door variants, and probably the 4-door will sell better. People liked those cute ragtop 2-door RAVs from the 90s - maybe they should do that treatment for the FJ as well, a la Jeep Wrangler.

Point is, most of the SUVs Toyota sells are street-oriented, for the very good reason that the street is where most people use them. I want a small SUV where the 'U' part of the equation still exists.

In fact, the big T should do itself a favor and try to differentiate its models more. When the HL gets bigger next year, it will step all over the 4Runner. And there are plenty of people who don't want a pick-up but want to go offroad, etc. Mostly now, they buy Jeeps. Come on Toyota, live up to your heritage!

PS crew cab Tacoma (with actual back seats) with the 4WD and the V-6 runs 26, 28 grand...the FJ needs to be small and come in under that price.

Kirstie_H · January 2005

OK, since we're not going to have a separate topic just for haters, the discussion title has been changed.

nippononly · January 2005

I forgot to ask you - where did you hear the FJ would come to the March show in Chicago? If that is for real, I might have to head over that way and check it out - our show in San Francisco doesn't come until Thanksgiving. :-(

callmedrfill · January 2005

Date, time, address, name of the ballroom, everything.

  I wouldn't start a forum without it being gospel.

  You think this thing is worthy of a 4 hour flight?

  DrFill

nippononly · January 2005

I've got other business in Chicago I can do any time, so why not in early March, eh?!

Seems like there is not much interest in this type of vehicle from the Edmunds crowd, though. I hope they go ahead with it. It is unlikely they will drop it at this stage if the Chicago debut model is indeed production-ready.

I want to get a gander at what the specs will more likely be versus the very-much-a-concept from two years ago.

nippononly · January 2005

saw in the NAIAS coverage that Toyota has an almost-ready crossover called (at present) something like the "FTSX" that is supposed to be a Mercedes R-class fighter.

Point is, once Toyota has a properly developed line of crossovers to replace their old SUVs, is it that inconceivable that Toyota could bring out the FJ as an '07 and just call it the next 4Runner? That would be cool to me and would make sense given that the Sequoia would still be available for the folks that actually want a truck-based SUV to tow or offroad.

callmedrfill · January 2005

That and the Cruiser are the trucks that I like most, so don't replace it with a half-baked retro redo. The 'Runner is an excellent SUV.

DrFill

nippononly · January 2005

such a truck would fulfill every duty the original 4Runner was designed to be capable of! And like I say, if you want to seat seven, you can still get a Sequoia.

Actually, it would be kind of a neat historical twist: 40 years ago the FJ40 was the very first Land Cruiser. Over the years it became enormous and max-luxed. How weird if the 4Runner became the "new FJ" for the 21st century!

So is the FJ concept really "half-baked"? I don't see why...

elemint · January 2005

I saw the FJ concept at the 2003 chicago auto show and i was the most ORIGINAL vehicle i have EVER seen! If it is anything like the one i saw at the show i am planing on buying on already. Now if the just make on with a diesel! THANKS TOYOTA!!!! This is the first vehicle i have EVER been excited about!

elemint · January 2005

One more thing. PLEASE dont make the new fj with leather and wood trim! Many people do not want to pay for all that "luxury" garbage just so car makers can jack up the price!

callmedrfill · January 2005

The original 4Runner was a p/u with a cheap camper shell stapled on it. It had no original mission. It dreamed of being the polished off-roader it is today!

I don't know what either one of you is talking about!

DrFill

nippononly · January 2005

the 4Runner today is a 7-seat mondo-mommymobile with compromised offroad specs for the sake of kicking Explorer and Traiblazer butt for the family set. The original was kinda special - a real truck that happened to have a back seat. All thru the 90s it maintained this mission, even as it became more lux-ified. For '03 they spent all their money putting in third row seats, rear seat DVDs, and quieting the ride with all kinds of sophisticry (not to mention making it HUGE). IOW, the original truck is gone, replaced by family transport.

That is what the FJ now proposes to be. A covered truck with a back seat. Small enough for a tight turning radius and offroad work. And for elemint, I will add that Toyota wants this to be an entry-level truck similar to XTerra in pricing. Don't expect wood, there might be optional leather (I won't be wanting any of that), but do expect it to be a rough-and-tumble truck right out of the box. No third rows and DVDs here! :-)

callmedrfill · January 2005

This 'Runner is better-looking, better off-road, rides better, has more features, and is a better value than any 4Runner before it. It's better than Grand Cherokee. Better than Exploder.

   It has a V8, a 3rd row seat they spent two cents on (the same add-on the Cruiser has had for a decade!), and has not been watered-down AT ALL! It's just better. They made it wider to seat 3 in the back better, and for rollover tests, that's it!

   It is their most balanced and capable SUV, a tremendous value. If only Ford or Gm could make one!

   They've put a ton of money into features and new engines, they ain't replacing the 'Runner anytime soon, anyway.

   DrFill

elemint · January 2005

The 4runner is not bad, a little 'worty' for my tastes though. I think the new pathfinder is where is it at though. I am looking forward to the fj cruiser because before i got wind of it i wanted to import a land cruiser II. The bear bones land cruiser truck that are all over the developing world. NOW THAT IS A 4x4! Too bad all the car manufacturers think we are all lazy fat asses that need a car that is like a living room. The nissan patrol rocks too!

nippononly · January 2005

you are right on!

doc: DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE!

The engines in the 4Runner are a variant of the (pre-existing) LC/Sequoia V-8 and the V-6 the new Tacoma is using. No need to worry about them throwing away the money on development of that pair - they will get plenty of use. Besides, we will probably see the V-6 as an option (possibly standard) in the FJ.

"It's better than Grand Cherokee. Better than Exploder."

EVERYTHING is better than Explorer. But I won't hold my breath waiting for offroad folks to start lifting 4Runners and taking them out on the trails. I would die first if I did. People DO lift GC's and take them out there, however. Just as they do with the pre-2003 4Runners.

"This 'Runner is better-looking, better off-road, rides better, has more features, and is a better value than any 4Runner before"

The 4Runner is only a better value in the sense that you get more junk for the same money. All junk for family car buyers. What's the bet the next gen won't even have a low range any more? If it follows its current path, I would say it is decent odds. Looks are subjective of course, but it is NOT better offroad - it has much lower approach and especially departure angles, and a totally compromised breakover. And if it has a better ride on the road, what about wheel articulation off the road?

Nope, with the advent of the '03 4Runner, Toyota relegated the "dirty work" role to its pick-ups. But not everyone wants a pick-up. Bring on the FJ.

Oh yeah, and I even like the model name 'FJ'. I hope they keep it and don't try to give it some silly word name instead.

callmedrfill · January 2005

I just don't know. The Pathfinder has the Frontier's cost-cut interior, and looks stupid on the outside, with a minivan rear end, and no V8. I don't sweat the Pathfinder.

  If you want a less technical, more elemental 4X4, get the Xterra. With only 75k sales a year, with no competition for that niche, in a market with, I don't know, 60 SUVs to chose from, I don't see any evidence that Toyota is missing something.

  And a 4Runner, or land Cruiser, can do anything the Xterra can do, only faster!

  DrFill

sorter · January 2005

Finally, someone can challenge Jeep.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=9&ObjectID=10008055

It's a goer for Toyota

26.01.05

by Alastair Sloane

Toyota says it created its go-anywhere FJ Cruiser to "raise the emotional pulse of the emerging youth market".

The new off-roader, styled from the original FJ concept of the late 1960s, will be pitched as an affordable sports utility vehicle for the active lifestyle set.

The carmaker is expected to confirm at the Chicago motor show next week that the new model will go into production next year, initially for the North American market.

It has been designed to compete with the H3 Hummer, the scaled-down 2006 model-year version of the vehicle originally developed for the US military.

The FJ Cruiser is marginally smaller than the H3 and was developed jointly by Toyota Motor Sales (USA) and Calty Design Research, the company's North American design centre in Newport Beach, California.

callmedrfill · January 2005

This thing is a lot uglier than I remember!



  HOW MANY viscious blind spots does thing have?

  And why can't they make the RSC concept form '02?

  That was 1000 times hotter than this load!

  DrFill

rsx-sfan · January 2005

I'd love an FJ. Look's great in my opinon.

nippononly · January 2005

I don't get it - you are out in left field on this one.

I don't think they will make the production model with that glass roof/hatch - don't know how that would do in crash tests but I bet whether it does well or not it is expensive, and this is supposed to be "the affordable offroader".

All the lights and stuff I can see, and I wonder if it will really come with a stock winch on the front like the concept.

Oh yeah, and those enormous rims on the concept truck will be gone, I am sure, and I still say they will sub in the new 4L V-6 from the Tacoma rather than use the outdated 3.4L with the S/C.

callmedrfill · January 2005

This thing is tore up from the floor up!

   Wanna debate this or a 4Runner? On looks or anything else? This is a ultra-niche vehicle like the Element.

   But they are mentioning $30k vehicles in comparison, not Elements and alike. They mention building it for young people.

   I guess they are talking about people my age or a little younger (I'm 29). Young people aren't just dropping $30k for that! Hell no!!

   DrFill

elemint · January 2005

What mention of $30k? I bet it will be around $25k It is a REAL 4x4 so what else are they supposed to compare to? I find this thing to be the best looking vehicle i have seen in a 4wd. All the rest are mostly copies of copies. I have been wait for such a vehicle for 20 years. I thought i found what i wanted in the element which i still love, but the FJ seems even more what i need. The fact that some people hate the look is a GOOD thing. All cutting edge designs offend the cookie cutter minds out there. Always has been like that and always will be. That is the sign of a good design. Most people alway hated Frank L Wright, but now people imaginations have cought up with his after 60 years

nippononly · January 2005

they were going for a $20K starting price when they first put forth the concept a couple years back. I imagine if it is like every 4x4 they have ever had, there will be a RWD version, so a 4WD FJ should start at about $22K. High-roof cars like the Element do not compare. The only vehicle that anyone should be comparing to the FJ is the XTerra.

elemint · January 2005

That is the 2006 Toyota FJ Cruiser. NOT 2007!

speedlux · January 2005

It look so out of dated. but It would be perfect for someone looking into mini-hummer.

elemint · January 2005

PLEASE dont us 'hummer' and the fj in the same sentence. The hummer has no purpose but to use up as much gas as possible while saying, 'look at me, i have a small package'.

callmedrfill · January 2005

It's a ugly Hummer for broke people.

Kind of anti-climactic, with Hummer sales on the down slope.

DrFill

andyman73 · January 2005

Just for clarification, are you refering to the H2, or the H1, which has been around for over 20 years, in military use? I saw my first one in Dec 85, in Augsburg, Germany. All the MILSPEC HMMVs are diesel powered. And, in their basic body styles look deceivingly smaller than the H2, mainly because of the high box style of H2.

The H2 is another civilianized idea of Military first technology.....cell phones, microwave ovens...and other stuff.

nippononly · February 2005

still failing to see the Hummer connection, sorry. Nissan completely changed the Pathfinder around from the last gen to compete head to head with the 4Runner, so Toyota is returning the favor by bringing out the FJ to go head to head with the XTerra, which so far has had little direct competition (Liberty being about the closest thing to a vehicle with the same mission and specs, but not frame-based in the Jeep's case of course).

elemint · February 2005

You are correct sir... There is really nothing like the fj but the closest would be half xtera half wrangler i suppose. Boy the new Nissan line up is awesome. I love the 05 xterra and pathfinder but am waiting to see the FJ. If the FJ is like the concept one I saw 2 years ago i will be a buyer if the price is right. Add a diesel and i would put my money down ASAP. Going head to head with Xterra? Maybe, but the xterra is not that different as any other suv or 4wd car when you think of it. If the new FJ is like the concept on it will be a revolutionary 4x4 imo.

nippononly · February 2005

(1) body on frame

(2) real 4WD with low range, and

(3) has short overhangs for excellent approach and departure angles, as well as a good breakover, for more offroad ability.

These are all excellent credentials, and the characteristics that set the XTerra apart from everything else in the market, to my mind.

Now, of course, for '05 the XTerra is also

(1) equipped with a single new engine with a total excess of power so that you can race it, apparently, which has

(2) caused it to have fairly shabby fuel economy (not that big a deal in a truck) and

(3) caused the base price to jump to almost $25K (a much bigger problem in an entry-level truck)

The FJ has the potential to be just as good in every qualitative respect, but to go a little easier on the gas, and most importantly to be at least $3K less in price. And to look better, as far as I am concerned - I mean, XTerra, Frontier, Pathfinder, and Armada all have identical front ends now, which is kinda boring.

elemint · February 2005

(3) caused the base price to jump to almost $25K?

How do you know this? Has 05 pricing come out? The Pathfinder starts at $24K! I like the new pathfinder and the xterra, but I dont see how nissan would make both at the same price.

kernick · February 2005

You're right that we should hope for better mpg than the Xterra (not to single it out.)

I would hope that the combined mpg would be above 20 mpg, even though the supercharger isn't going to help. And if it uses 91-octane that's going to make people consider the operating cost.

If Toyota is targeting the younger-buyer, hopefully they'll provide a vehicle to get you to your destination reasonably (payments+gas), and still have money for the activity.

I'm hoping that what's introduced based on its size, is lighter, and low-tech, compared to the other SUV's out there which just seem to cram more and more content in them. I hope it's more Jeep Wrangler than VW Tourareg.

elemint · February 2005

A diesel is the way to go. Why almost EVERY suv is not offered in a diesel is rediculous. The same set up xterra with a diesel would get you almost 30 mpg on the hwy... Personally i would be disgusted if it is anything like a wrangler OR a tourareg. Good price, room for 4 or 5, and the ability for 2 6 foot plus people to sleep in the back is all i ask for.

kernick · February 2005

I agree. The Jeep Liberty diesel seems like a nice vehicle. Give me the torque, and I can probably do without the hp in a small SUV.

But what are the chances of a diesel? I thought there's only the 1 engine; the super-3.4L?

I was simply talking content level and weight. I'd rather see the content and weight more like the Wrangler, then the Tourareg. I'm not referring to the fit/finish/ride/dynamics, etc.

Hopefully the FX will come with pw/pm/pl/ac but skip all the NAV/leather/air suspension/headlight washer/memory packages and all that stuff.

If I had to summarize what I hope is introduced it would be - "a comfortable, economical dune buggy".

nippononly · February 2005

the $25K remark is based on R&T and C&D articles on the '05 XTerra this month - one of them states that this is the projected starting price.

As for the FJ's engines, the S/C 3.4 is what they had for a powerful truck engine back when the concept first came out. Now the NA 4L in the Tacoma surpasses it for power, and is being produced in volume, whereas they have stopped building the 3.4s. To me, it seems like that makes it more likely they will use the Tacoma's V-6 for the FJ.

But like others here have said, I hope they keep this truck as basic and as light as it can be, given that it is a fairly small BOF truck. I am sure they could get under 4000 pounds. And if they can do that, I am kinda hoping they will make the Tacoma 4-cyl the FJ's base engine as well. I imagine a 4-cyl 4WD FJ starting at around $20K, with the equipment basics (A/C, CD, maybe PL and PW?) for that price. Of course, that might be a bit hopeful in the context of the existing pricing of the RAV4!

Hey, it's only one week until the Chicago show! Many of these questions will be answered in just a few days.

sorter · February 2005

come to think of it, wouldn't this be a perfect SUV for Scion instead of Toyota?

callmedrfill · February 2005

Good answer. It's so weird and unnecessary for 'Yota, but perfect for the punk kid to take on.

DrFill

chris65amg · February 2005

OMG i was just about to say that. Toyota has been saying that Scion is a brand for young people, and they drag out the FJ just for Toyota?? It would be a nice complement to Scion, and it would probably sell better, if only because it isn't in the same showroom with a Camry and Corolla.

Although I do personally kind of like the FJ, they could just turn it into fJ (like xA, xB, and tC) and sell it as a Scion.... it might grind shoulders with the 'Runner if it was a 'Yota. Yes, I know the Runner isn't nearly the Utility it used to be, but it's still a better than any Explorer, Grand Cherokee, or Pathfinder. I like Scion, and badging it as a Scion would probably make it cheaper, as well. Because if you consider....

Scion tC

160 hp I-4

Tons of extra stuff (love the panoramic roof)

versatility without looking like a Geo Metro

Price: 16,500

Toyota Corolla

130 hp I-4

Extra stuff on LE only, really.... or XRS

Have to shell out 17 grand for rather silly looking XRS with not-so-torquey engine.

No panoramic roof or knee airbags

Price (LE, comparably equipped): Over 17 grand.

And they are about the same size on the inside....

and arguing that the Corolla is aimed at a different market is a moot point because Toyota keeps the price higher for the older folk (look at the Celica compared to the tC) The Scion is definitely a better value. Also, it looks classy. Trust me, a Scion fJ would sell for less than a Toyota FJ just because Scion isn't as established.

Oh, and I love the FJ because it's funky! It has little overhang and a spunky kind of style. Atypical for Toyota.

callmedrfill · February 2005

Where this idea that the 4Runner has lost something, or is not as good as past 4Runners. Can someone explain this to me? Please!!

DrFill

chris65amg · February 2005

Itt's all on a basis of comperison. The first 4 Runners were clunky trucks with a top over the end. Some people think that it becoming a capable SUV that can seat 7 people and have a DVD player is a really bad thing. I would take a new one over an old one any day.

scooter71 · February 2005

my wish is that the FJ comes in an anti-whimp trim level with the Hilux's 4-cyl diesel, no power anything (except steering and brakes, huh?), hose-off floor and seats, a decent off road pkg (ltd slip diff, skid plates, etc), abs, a/c, and a roof rack. for $23,500.

i say this cause i love the old FJ40's and ache for something as low-key and capable for reasonable $.

:-)

nippononly · February 2005

"Some people think that it becoming a capable SUV that can seat 7 people and have a DVD player is a really bad thing"

What 4Runner became for '03 was a really capable PEOPLE-MOVER. All of 4Runner's trucky talents of the 20 years preceding it got diluted if not wiped out for this primary mission.

scooter: absolutely, in fact I wish that the FJ came with a basic offroad-ready package without any of the other stuff except A/C. Wind-down windows and pull-up locks would be fine, but it should have locking rear diff, skid plates, and TRD suspension with all-terrain tires, for about $20K in the 4-cyl 4WD, $22K in the V-6. 6-speed manual. They could have a "street package" with ABS, extra airbags, tinted windows, power accessories, cruise, all that junk. In fact, just call that model the "fJ street". And make automatic available for an extra $1K, 5-speed. I think Toyota could handle that.

What others have said here makes good sense - why not make it Scion's first truck? I mean, some have called the xB an "SUV", but is it really? Not on your life. It is a big four-seat wagon. Everything about the guts is Toyota Echo.

scooter71 · February 2005

oops- i'd want side airbags too. i guess i'd want a combo of off-road ability, simplicity, and safety .

regardless i suspect toyota will straddle the off road stuff and the honda element girly gen-y stuff.

ps- you're right: a locking diff, not a ltd slip diff.

pps- if toyota listened to nippon and i they'd obviously have a real cult vehicle in the making.

7art · February 2005

I was within 24 hours of dropping a check on a 4Runner - the dealer just had to locate one with my options package and color ... I called him last night and put it on hold once I saw the FJ.

That thing is butt ugly. I love it! As long as it has even moderate towing capacity, I'm sold. The 4Runner was going to replace my 15 year old Wrangler, which I love, but I'd like something that is not a rag top (indeed the Jeep top is so difficult to put up and down, it almost doesn't qualify as a convertible).

Instead of taking a $ 5,000 depreciation in the first year on the Runner, I'll put $ 4,000 in the bank, and $ 1,000 into keeping the Jeep running 'till the FJ gets to the showroom floor in enough quantities that I don't have to pay MSRP (or more) to get one.

This is the first SUV I've seen which I am excited about. I am a firm believer that a car is a machine, not a movable living room.

I wonder if it will come with a manual tranny?

Art

bpratico · February 2005

I watched the unveiling. Toyota said "yes" - a manual transmission will be offered.

Specs:

-245 hp 4.0 liter DOHC 24 VVT-I engine

- VSC

- locking differnential

- modiifed 4-runner chassis; 11 inches shorter and 4" narrower than 4-runner

- industrial interior with black rubber-like floor

About a year away from launch. Coming as a 2007 model.

Toyota FJ Cruiser

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