I suppsoe the fact that you would never consider a domestic car (except the vette!) is supposed to show some level of sophistication or whatever. Your comparisons are way off. To say the LS460 should be compared to the much cheaper FWD DTS is absurd to say the least. In your opinion all of the foreign cars you listed are far superior to the domestic cars but if you compare vehicles OBJECTIVELY without taking into account their snob appeal things would look a little differently. I don't even like the Explorer but you cannot seriously think the current model is worse than the 4Runner. The Aura is superior to the Accord in value, hp, styling, handling and features. Any fair person would have to deem the Aura better as it should be since the Accord is 4 years old. Considering the price of the Avalon its a joke to compare it to the Impala. It can really only be compared to the Lucerne which is currently outselling the Avalon in spite of its 4 speed auto. The CTS is old and the IS is brand new so I would expect the IS to be superior. Objectively speaking the STS can go head to head with the 5 series and the STS is FAR cheaper once you start piling on the options. Many magazines like the SRX and consider it the best midsize luxury SUV. It's faster than the MDX with its V8 and gets about the same mileage and has a new interior for 2007. I cant say that its better in every facet than the MDX but its certainly competitive, the choice isnt clear cut or one sided. The only import picks on your list that makes any sense are the RAv4 (which is overpriced) and the Fit. BTW, the Equinox is getting a 263hp V6 and 6 speeed for 2008 MY so the RAV4 wont be at the head of the class for much longer.
Imports have clear class leaders in the midsize truck, high end luxury ($60K+) and small car categories. That's it, everything else is closely contested.
BTW, I dont really care about buying American to be patriotic or any of that. I am just a proponent of fairness and honesty and the honest truth is domestic cars in 2006 arent as bad as many believe. Unfortunately, many people who support imports mistakenly believe they are automotive experts and confuse their personal biases and opinions with facts. "domestic cars are crap" is an poorly stated opinion, it's not a fact. Everyone is entitled to hate whatever automakers they please if that helps them sleep and night, but that doesn't mean they can make up facts to justify their biases.
How many people do you know with cars over 200k miles period? That whole argument is so pointless in todays world when most people keep a car for 6 years at the longest. If I plan to keep my car for 5-6 years why in the world would I care that it can run to 200k miles without anything but oil changes? I also want to know how people like you explain why there are so many old domestic cars (esp. GM) still on the road. Your point is supposed to be imports last for decades with no problems and american cars are made to fall apart after the warranty period and yet I see plenty of Buicks, Cadillac, Olds, etc. from 10+ years ago on the road every single day. How do you explain that?
"Quality/durability is still behind"
According to what? Saying you have friends with 20 year old camrys with 200k miles doesnt prove that domestic manufacturers are making poor quality vehicles today. Let me guess, your proof is CR's auto issue. Whenever surveys show the quality gap is shrinking or non existent, import fanatics have excuses as to why the results are not valid and yet they are quick to bring up CR because that is their only hope. My favorite excuse is: "JD Powers takes money from the automakers so we know the results are slanted".
Its obvious you have some type of vendetta agains the midwets and unions and that is fine, but it has nothing to do with the merits of the vehicles being discussed.
"I don't like American cars is because they are crap, and devoid of any imagination IMO. It has nothing to do with "rep" for me. "
That is such a simplistic and illogical statement that its hard to even respond. Are you saying the Accord and Sonata are full of imagination? How about the Camry? Can you define "crap"? Would the STS-V be crap? Would the C6 be crap? How about the 300C SRT or Mustang? How about the Outlook/Acadia or Escalade? All crap right?
I dont care about the UAW and your beef with lazy union workers has little relevance to what is being discussed here.
1849, Nice try, but I'm not a fan of any of those cars. And yes, for the most part, they lack imagination to. But, the piece of crap comment, I'll reserve for American makes.
"I dont care about the UAW and your beef with lazy union workers has little relevance to what is being discussed here".
Tell ya what, let's work on coherent sentences, then we'll move on to Automobile analysis.
"The Aura is superior to the Accord in value, hp, styling, handling and features. Any fair person would have to deem the Aura better"
Geez, so 300K Accord buyers per year and 400K Camry buyers will not be fair-minded if they give the Aura a miss?
I have never owned either an Accord or a Camry, but I've driven both plenty, and have now driven the Aura, and I wouldn't say it exceeds either of the above on value (or features, the two sort of go in hand in hand), does not exceed the Accord on handling, and to say that ANY model exceeds another in styling is PURELY subjective and has nothing to do with fairness.
Having said that, if you're LOOKING for a V-6, the Aura XR is a very decent value in all respects, and does have good handling (a little bit at the expense of highway ride comfort). But no Aura will average 30 mpg around town the way the Accord and Camry 4-cyl can easily do, so we will have to wait and see what gives with the hybrid.
Oh, and I most certainly CAN say the current Explorer is a worse choice than the current 4Runner, and the 4Runner is an older model. It's got the Trailblazer beat IMO, too.
I will give it to the Suburban and Tahoe, if you're in the market for that sort of thing. And the new Silverado. Those are GM specialties, and it shines with those products. But the rest? I think it is an unfair statement to say that the fair-minded buyer MUST prefer the GM product every time.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Did those rust away like most of the foreign cars in the 80s? Still running but the driver has wood inthe floor boards!!! :P
>people do you know with cars over 200k miles period?
Mine is gonna make 200K before I trade it. My last one would have but my wife wanted a nice bright red LeSabre for her gift. I can ask my neighbor down the road whose dad has bought and sold used cars for decades which cars last. He expects 3800s in H bodies to go 300K without major problems. So
Cars from 20 years ago don't make good comparisons for cars of today!!! But don't let the haters know that secret here... Keep it hush.
Instead of rah-rah cheerleading for GM, we've gotten into some good back-and-forth.
FWIW, I kept my 1980 Volvo 240, bought used in 1982, for 21 years and 245K miles.
Like imidazol, I tend to keep cars a long time. The only reason I sold my '97 Camry in 2004 at 111K miles was to get a 2004 Camry with side airbags, not because of any maladies. I have a '98 Nissan Frontier pickup that I'll probably keep for another decade or so, as long as it keeps on being reliable (maybe it'll outlast the Volvo).
Also, I have to agree with nippononly that just because a car is newer in design like the Aura, then it has to be better than an older design like the Accord.
Now I've never owned a Honda, but both the Accord and Civic have been long-running favorites, both in terms of sales and auto journalists' opinions.
Oh, and I'm not anti-GM -- I grew up on GM iron, look at my user name, and I had a 1977 Chevy Impala (bought with over 100K miles on it) that was a fine car for me at the time.
"Foreign vs. domestic," what exactly does it mean anymore? Precious little imo. It was reported this week that Toyota is looking for sites in the U.S. to build another assembly plant, it's 8th I believe. Yes, it's a foreign company but continuing to invest in the U.S. and hire U.S. workers. G.M. and Ford are U.S.-based companies, yet how many plants in Mexico does each have? Several, I believe. I don't pretend to understand NAFTA, globalization, etc... I'm just looking for the best product that I can afford when I purchase a car. It's good that GM and Ford products like the Fusion and upcoming Malibu are worth considering vs. Camry or Accord. But foreign vs. domestic doesn't factor into my decision. The car companies are international entities.
Agree totally. All of the big automakers are global entities.
"Build 'em where you sell 'em" is their motto. That's why Toyota for one is looking to build another plant in North America (US or Canada), and I think it will be their 8th. Honda also recently decided to add another assembly plant; this one will be in Indiana.
Once a plant is built, suppliers follow. Again, all the big players in the supplier industry are global.
And US workers are the beneficiaries, getting jobs with the automakers, suppliers, transport companies, and dealerships.
"I'm telling you.. the PR that Honda/Toyota has done is class act. It amazes me what people don't know. I was able to visit one of these transplants about 5 years ago. Most if not all the tooling was Japanese. Most if not all the managers were Japanese, Most if not all the support folks (fix the tooling) were Japanese. All of the "assembly" workers were U.S. personel.." Source on edmunds... scape2, "Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread" #10813, 6 Jan 2007 6:59 pm
So I suppose all that manufacturing equipment was actually made in US with Japanese labels on it to make the management feel good?
I watched a small clean industry open about a decade ago in our fair village. I watched the oriental men walk from the building to the apartments which were within .4 of a mile. I watched them sometimes ride in a station wagon. I suppose all those were really Americans opening the plant for the first couple of years to make sure it was run the way it should be? NOT.
And "scape2" is supposed to be some kind of authority on the subject?
Maybe you ought to check out Automotive News, not exactly a hotbed of liberalism, for what those plants and workers are really like. It is based in Detroit, and was founded in 1925.
>And "scape2" is supposed to be some kind of authority on the subject?
Are you an expert on the subject that it's not as another person descibed? If you wish to say you disagree, you don't have to throw terms like "liberalism" and "some kind of authority" around. I'll take it for what it's worth.
If someone wishes to tell him he's lying, feel free to post in the other discussion.
I looked at Mr. Scape's other posts, and it's obvious he's not exactly, shall we say, objective.
FWIW, I work in an automotive-related field (and have for over 27 years), so I do think I have some knowledge of how the auto industry works (and how to separate fact from fiction).
dude you are all over the place. I'd need a interpreter to understand what you just said. :confuse:
I was asking for a tariff on those sweat shop made Chinese Chery Dodge rebadge models. Read my whole post again carefully before blowing a gasket unless you are all for the importation of them ????
Yes Rocky - brilliant idea - more tarrifs, less competition. Lets screw 250 million Americans and save 50 thosand jobs. Why not?
A tariff on the chinese cars might save some transplant jobs also. A real tariff on all imports would save more than 50K jobs because the domestics and transplants would have to build plants here to sell vehicals here. I suppose you see something wrong with that. I think it would be a great idea to build Lexus's here and make ford bring back the fusion plant or they'd be tariffed.
Perhaps you don't which is why you have the right to your opinion.
1. You've stated that people by imports for prestige, and implied that they are idiots.
If they buy the car because they think it will add status to them then yes they are idiots. If they buy the car because they just like it than no they aren't idiots.
2. You turn around and state that people that drive American, love America more.
Well buying a import car after talking to WWII vets like I have said it's like a slap in their face.
3. You said that when people trash Caddy, that's a slap in the face to Lemko.
It is a slap in lemko's face because some of the comments being made were about how cadillac's don't last a long time without falling apart, and only gangster's and old folks in their 70's drive them. *shakes head* :confuse:
So what kind of people are you slapping in the face?
I'm not trying to slap anyone in their faces but was merely defending the domestics reliability, quality, performance, records vs. the anti-domestic crowd.
Yeah those 3800's were junk because they often didn't run much more than 350K.
Did those rust away like most of the foreign cars in the 80s? Still running but the driver has wood inthe floor boards!!!
Just 80's let's try 1990's. My friends Accords and Camry's from the early 90's were rusting in the 1996-97 time frame. I use to tell them my 92' Bonnevile is is the same year as your accord and look at who's car is lasting longer. :P That use to peeve them off.
Great post pal. I especially like the line where you said the machinery was made in the U.S. and the japanese put "made in Japan" labels on it to make them feel good.
"Your point is supposed to be imports last for decades with no problems and american cars are made to fall apart after the warranty period and yet I see plenty of Buicks, Cadillac, Olds, etc. from 10+ years ago on the road every single day. How do you explain that?"
Now to be fair, all those Buicks, Cadillacs and Olds were powered by V6's and V8's when the Japanese produced mostly 4-cylinder and a few V6 models. For a fair comparison, how about a 1990 Lexus LS400 vs 1990 Seville? 1997 Lumina vs 1997 Camry? And let's not talk 4-cyl domestics that tried to compete with the Japanese because they were all junk and we all know it. The domestic automakers wish you would forget those small junky models, while the comparable Japanese are proud people remember theirs. I am not a GM basher but there is no way to prove that segment-to-segment, domestic run longer than Japanese.
Rocky, maybe it's my tired eyes but I keep reading your posts and thinking they're all from different people. Maybe you could put all your points in one post? I guess it's just a netiquette thing but double-posting is frowned upon in most places. But then I'm always a stickler for etiquette
Saw it last night and it is HOT. Wow. They have it painted in a modern Hugger Orange and in real like it is amazing. Should be the car of the year at the Detroit Auto Show.
Didn't GM start it with the China-built 3.4 V6? I bet it did make u sick but not to the point of puking
Also, what's the difference between a Korean rebadged Chevy and a chinese rebadged Dodge? Whatever you can say about Chinese cars was also said about Koreans 15 years ago.
1- Toyota Camry: ------------ 448,445 up 4% 2- Toyota Corolla: ---------- 387,388 up 14% 3- Honda Accord: ------------ 354,441 down 4% 4- Honda Civic: ------------- 316,638 up 3% 5- Chevy Impala: ------------ 289,868 Up 18% 6- Nissan Altima: ----------- 232,457 down 9% 7- Chevy Cobalt: ------------ 211,449 Down 1% 8- Ford Focus: -------------- 177,006 down 4% 9- Ford Taurus: ------------- 174,803 down 11% 10 - Ford Mustang: --------- 166,530 up 4%
11- Chevy Malibu: ---------- 163,853 Down 20% 12- Pontiac G6: ------------ 157,644 Up 26% 13- Hyundai Sonata: -------- 149,513 up 15% 14- Chrysler 300: ---------- 143,647 flat 15- Ford Fusion: ----------- 142,502 up 739% 16- Chrysler PT Cruiser: --- 138,650 up 4% 17- BMW 3-Series: ---------- 120,180 up 12% 18- Nissan Sentra:---------- 117,922 down 1% 19- Dodge Charger: --------- 114,201 up 156% 20- Pontiac Grand Prix: ---- 108,634 down 11%
See if you can understand this: you have no substantive reasoning to back your biased opinions so you rely on insults and incoherent blatherings to make your point about all domestics being "crap". The wording you use proves that you have nothing intelligent to say in regards to the faults of domestic vehicles.
I am typically weary of people who make generalizations about cars, races, political parties or whatever. Anyone contending that all domestic cars are "crap" without any regard for the facts is extremely biased and unreasonable. It's apparent that you have been burned in the past by domestic products or by surly UAW workers and now you are on some type of "facts be damned" vendetta agaisnt anything not engineered in Japan or Germany.
You are missing the point. As with all import lovers you base the competence of a vehicle on sales when its convenient. The DTS outsells the 750i but I wouldn't say the DTS is a better car. The Camry and Accord are well established brands that will sell NO MATTER WHAT. I don't see why that is so hard to understand. The merits of the vehicles are almost irrelevant at this point because they are the de facto choices for those who want to buy a midsize sedan but don't know much about cars. BTW, the Aura has only been on sale since August and there is no way Saturn has the capacity to sell anywhere near the volume of the Accord/Camry. I'm smart enough to know that styling is subjective and you are smart enough to know that most reviewers have found the Aura to be one of the most stylish in the class, even C&D which praises the Accord to no end. As for handling, you look at the numbers and read the reviews. If you want to sit here and say the Accord handles better even though the test results and reviewer comments say otherwise than I don't know what else to say. I assume you are the type that is quick to point to "expert" opinions and test results when they make an american car look bad, but have excuses when its the Accord that is looking rather mediocre.
The Aura lacks a four cylinder so its pretty obvious that it wont match the mileage of an Accord 4 cylinder. The Malibu and G6 can do that however.
The Trailblzer is completely outdated and near the bottom of the class, notice I had nothing to say about it. The Explorer has an IRS, 6 speed auto and a much nicer interior than any 4Runner. Excactly what makes you think the Toyota is better? It's not styling, its not fuel economy, it's not technology or powertrain. What are you basing this on besides having a Toyota badge?
"I think it is an unfair statement to say that the fair-minded buyer MUST prefer the GM product every time."
Dont be ridiculous, I never made such a statement and I am not naive enough to think GM has best in class vehicles across the board. I do take issue with your assertion that the C6 is the only worhwhile Big 3 vehicle on the market. That statement cant be made by a reasonable person. What about the Acadia, SRX, Silverado/Sierra, STS-V, XLR, G6, Solstice, Lucerne, 300, Fusion, Pacifica, Cobalt SS, Aura, etc.? Not to mention the upcoming Vue, Malibu, Equinix Sport and CTS. You really need to get past this mentality that domestics are only good at making body on frame SUVs, that isnt true in 2007.
I am also annoyed by generalizing all domestic cars being "crap". I would much rather to compare them on a car-to-car basis because just to be fair here, although most of the domestic cars are not in my liking (except the Vette) but someone else may find something he/she likes.
However, what I also can't stand is for someone to say something like: If one doesn't buy domestic then he/she is not patriotic and does not love America. How is that any different from the McCarthyism back in the 50's? Last time I checked, we are now well into the 21 century and the economy is as globalized as it ever was.
I am going to admit here that it is not going to be easy to get my rear into a domestic anytime soon unless our Toyota, Honda and Lexus start to give us headaches. Just like many happy domestic owners are happy with their cars because of many trouble-free years, I see no point for them to switch to import as well. My motto is always: stick with what works, if it ain't break, don't fix it. But that doesn't stop me to have fun comparing cars to each other in an objective way.
That being said, I will still root for GM/Ford because strong competition is a good thing as well as a strong automobile industry is good for the country. Even I personally am unlikely to purchase a domestic but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a good entry (like the Aura and Fusion) to a friend, as I did many times. I think GM/Ford should really focus on attract first time buyers and keep them as loyal customers if they want to remain competitive. I know many other people just like me so trying to make a happy owner switch is awfully harder to do IMO.
Sorry to stick my nose into this. But I just couldn't help it.
The Explorer has an IRS, 6 speed auto and a much nicer interior than any 4Runner. Excactly what makes you think the Toyota is better?
It's not styling,
Styling is subjective. Not everyone likes the the wide mouth of the new Explorer, or the outdated been-there-seen-that body
its not fuel economy,
You are wrong. The 236hp V6 in the 4Runner gets 17/21 mpg with 4WD, while the less powerful 210hp in the Explorer gets a V8-like 15/19 mpg. In fact, even the V8 4Runner 4Wd gets better than the V6 Explorer (16/19 mpg)
it's not technology or powertrain "
The V8 4Runner is faster than the V8 Explorer. Go Figure! Thanks to the DOHC 'technology' that produces flat torque (more Torque than the explorer) without sacrificing fuel economy.
What are you basing this on besides having a Toyota badge?
Both the Explorer and Trailblazer saw a big loss of sales that threatens their very existance, more than 25% each last year. The 4Runner, however, managed to keep its sales flat. Why?
DETROIT -- The Saturn Aura has been named the 2007 North American Car of the Year by a panel of automotive journalists. That 49-member panel also named the Chevrolet Silverado as the 2007 North American Truck of the Year.
The winners of the annual competition were named today at the start of press preview days for the North American International Auto Show.
The Aura emerged on top from a field of 11 candidates for the car award.
Jurors gave the Aura a total of 205 points out of a maximum possible 490 points in the round of voting to pick the winning vehicle.
For the truck award, the Silverado was given 243 points out of the maximum possible 490 points. The finalists were culled from a pool of 15 candidate trucks.
The process to choose the winning car and truck was changed for the 2007 award. This year, jurors cast a first round of ballots -- distributing 25 points among the candidates in the car and truck categories with no more than 10 points given to a single vehicle -- to narrow the lists down to three finalists.
A second vote had to be held for the truck category when it was discovered, after the finalists had been announced, that the Jeep Wrangler had been left off the initial ballot. But the Wrangler did not get enough points in the revote to be added to the finalists in the category.
Jurors then cast a second ballot to choose a winner from among the finalists in each category. In each category, jurors had 10 points that they could give to a single vehicle, or divide among the finalists.
This is the 14th year the awards have been handed out. Last year, American Honda Motor Co. swept the awards with the Honda Civic and Honda Ridgeline.
The jury includes Automotive News Executive Editor Edward Lapham and Senior Writer Dale Jewett. Also on the jury are AutoWeek Editor Dutch Mandel and Road Test Editor Natalie Neff. Automotive News and AutoWeek are published by Crain Communications Inc.
Hello everyone, I have 01 Sequoia that recently stalls everytime I put it in gear (Drive or Reverse). It has happened to me three times now. It only happens after I drive it for a while usually after 45 minutes. For the first two times I can drive it again after a few hours. I had a mechanic look at it the first time it happened but by the time we got there it was fine. The mechanic couldn't find anything wrong with it. So I left with the car. The second time it happened I was pulling into a parking lot and left it there over night. And today it happened again except this time it wouldn't moved anymore. I can start the car fine and it will idle in park or neutral like usual but everytime I put it in Drive or Reverse it stalls. With the first two times I would be able to drive it by now (after a few hours) but I guess this time its for good. I had the car towed home today since I can not find any shop that opens on a Sunday. Had anyone experienced this problem? Anyone have any clue what it could be? Any help would be greatly appreciated before I take it in to the dealer this week.
Not familiar with the Sequoia. However here are my suggestions (this will be my last post regarding this topic since this is a GM forum):
1. Take it back to your Toyota dealer, that's if you haven't done so. Since you mentioned "mechanic" I am not sure if he's a Toyota certified mechanic or not. I would opt for the dealer before other mom-'n-pop shops.
2. Tell the dealer you have a new car and this shouldn't happen. Do no agree to take your car back unless they find the problem and fix it.
3. If they are trying to dance around the issue then talk to the manager. If the manager is a dancer too then I would first raise hell right there and later on call Toyota NA and raise hell again.
So interesting that on so many Edmunds industry discussions, this issue of American companies vs foreign owned keeps coming up. Wonder how many people that profess to be loyal to American car companies buy clothing NOT made in the USA (most), or furniture (more and more from China, Thailand, etc), computers and electronics, aircraft (Airbus is distinctly European), and the list goes on. But somehow the Big 3 keep hitting the patriotism button and it hits home with lots of people. Actually stores like Best Buy seem to be outlets for China, Inc. But at least Best Buy is an American owned company!
Wonder how many people that profess to be loyal to American car companies buy clothing NOT made in the USA (most), or furniture (more and more from China, Thailand, etc), computers and electronics, aircraft (Airbus is distinctly European...
The aircraft industry is in many ways like, perhaps even more evolved than the auto industry. I read recently that something like >40% of Airbus aircraft components are source from the US. Meanwhile, Boeing has large fuselage and wing sections made in Japan. The aircraft industry is already very multinational. Just like the car industry.
Very true. Hard to buy american today. Of course that is one reason why we have such a huge trade deficit and our country is going broke. Some say it is ok that we lose all our manufacturing. We will see.
Wonder how many people that profess to be loyal to American car companies buy clothing NOT made in the USA (most), or furniture (more and more from China, Thailand, etc), computers and electronics, aircraft (Airbus is distinctly European), and the list goes on.
For dress clothes, you really should stick with a tailor. Unless you are flying to London or Hong Kong, your tailor is going to be in the US. One step down, Hickey Freeman, Hart Schaffner & Marx and Ike Behar make most of their products in the US or Canada. Alan Edmunds still makes its shoes in Wisconsin.
Casual is tough, but not important. Especially in the cycling world, you have a lot of small companies focused on US made: Swobo, Chrome to name a few.
In furniture, there are too many custom companies to list. Two great large US companies are Herman Miller and Knoll. You have some great niche companies like Anthrocarts as well.
The big computer companies are mainly US. Most source abroad. Chips are still made in the US, however. Dell still makes many of its computers in Texas.
In electronics, if you settle for digital, you will be stuck with Asian products. Go analog, and suddenly US dominates. Conrad Johnson and Carey for instance, make beautiful stereo equipment with sound quality that puts Asian digital to shame. And these are low price. If this was not off topic, I could post a huge list of US made high end sound equipment, including turn tables that sell for nearly 100k.
Who buys jets here? In any event, Airbus is beginning to tank. It concentrated on making the aircraft equivalent of the SUV, and has not shown it will be able to get it to market. Meanwhile, Boeing is really starting to relaunch. The 777 and 787 are ordered well into the next decade. The revamped 747 is stealing orders from the Airbus 388. And the redesign of the 737 is coming in a year or so.
1. For suits, only buy tailor-made and don't buy off the rack. 2. Casual is not important if it's made in USA or not but dress cloths is. 3. Only buy custom furnitures. Rooms to Go is off the list. 4. It is okay for computer companies to outsource overboard but GM and Chrysler is not suppose to outsourcing China. 5. Only buy analog electronics. BTW, pops, has WWII ended yet on your side of the world? 6. FYI, Boeing hasn't received any order for revamped 747's passenger version yet. However, I think it is going to do well against the A380.
To stick with it, I better be beefing up my spending and ready to return my lifestyle to the the 50's.
How many people do you know with cars over 200k miles period?
I know of one - my brother-in-law who drives a 1997 Nissan Altima as a beater car in lieu of his Mercedes S430. However, the car is practically held together with duct tape and baling wire and has a "nice" black finish courtesy of Krylon.
Many Philadelphia taxicabs, (mostly Crown Vics) have in excess of 300K on the clock.
CR surveying its subscribers for opinions on domestics is like MacWorld surveying its subscrivers for opinions about Microsoft.
Comments
Imports have clear class leaders in the midsize truck, high end luxury ($60K+) and small car categories. That's it, everything else is closely contested.
BTW, I dont really care about buying American to be patriotic or any of that. I am just a proponent of fairness and honesty and the honest truth is domestic cars in 2006 arent as bad as many believe. Unfortunately, many people who support imports mistakenly believe they are automotive experts and confuse their personal biases and opinions with facts. "domestic cars are crap" is an poorly stated opinion, it's not a fact. Everyone is entitled to hate whatever automakers they please if that helps them sleep and night, but that doesn't mean they can make up facts to justify their biases.
"Quality/durability is still behind"
According to what? Saying you have friends with 20 year old camrys with 200k miles doesnt prove that domestic manufacturers are making poor quality vehicles today. Let me guess, your proof is CR's auto issue. Whenever surveys show the quality gap is shrinking or non existent, import fanatics have excuses as to why the results are not valid and yet they are quick to bring up CR because that is their only hope. My favorite excuse is: "JD Powers takes money from the automakers so we know the results are slanted".
"I don't like American cars is because they are crap, and devoid of any imagination IMO. It has nothing to do with "rep" for me. "
That is such a simplistic and illogical statement that its hard to even respond. Are you saying the Accord and Sonata are full of imagination? How about the Camry? Can you define "crap"? Would the STS-V be crap? Would the C6 be crap? How about the 300C SRT or Mustang? How about the Outlook/Acadia or Escalade? All crap right?
I dont care about the UAW and your beef with lazy union workers has little relevance to what is being discussed here.
1. You've stated that people by imports for prestige, and implied that they are idiots.
2. You turn around and state that people that drive American, love America more.
3. You said that when people trash Caddy, that's a slap in the face to Lemko.
So what kind of people are you slapping in the face?
"I dont care about the UAW and your beef with lazy union workers has little relevance to what is being discussed here".
Tell ya what, let's work on coherent sentences, then we'll move on to Automobile analysis.
But hey, your still the smartest guy here.
Geez, so 300K Accord buyers per year and 400K Camry buyers will not be fair-minded if they give the Aura a miss?
I have never owned either an Accord or a Camry, but I've driven both plenty, and have now driven the Aura, and I wouldn't say it exceeds either of the above on value (or features, the two sort of go in hand in hand), does not exceed the Accord on handling, and to say that ANY model exceeds another in styling is PURELY subjective and has nothing to do with fairness.
Having said that, if you're LOOKING for a V-6, the Aura XR is a very decent value in all respects, and does have good handling (a little bit at the expense of highway ride comfort). But no Aura will average 30 mpg around town the way the Accord and Camry 4-cyl can easily do, so we will have to wait and see what gives with the hybrid.
Oh, and I most certainly CAN say the current Explorer is a worse choice than the current 4Runner, and the 4Runner is an older model. It's got the Trailblazer beat IMO, too.
I will give it to the Suburban and Tahoe, if you're in the market for that sort of thing. And the new Silverado. Those are GM specialties, and it shines with those products. But the rest? I think it is an unfair statement to say that the fair-minded buyer MUST prefer the GM product every time.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Did those rust away like most of the foreign cars in the 80s? Still running but the driver has wood inthe floor boards!!! :P
>people do you know with cars over 200k miles period?
Mine is gonna make 200K before I trade it. My last one would have but my wife wanted a nice bright red LeSabre for her gift. I can ask my neighbor down the road whose dad has bought and sold used cars for decades which cars last. He expects 3800s in H bodies to go 300K without major problems. So
Cars from 20 years ago don't make good comparisons for cars of today!!! But don't let the haters know that secret here... Keep it hush.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
FWIW, I kept my 1980 Volvo 240, bought used in 1982, for 21 years and 245K miles.
Like imidazol, I tend to keep cars a long time. The only reason I sold my '97 Camry in 2004 at 111K miles was to get a 2004 Camry with side airbags, not because of any maladies. I have a '98 Nissan Frontier pickup that I'll probably keep for another decade or so, as long as it keeps on being reliable (maybe it'll outlast the Volvo).
Also, I have to agree with nippononly that just because a car is newer in design like the Aura, then it has to be better than an older design like the Accord.
Now I've never owned a Honda, but both the Accord and Civic have been long-running favorites, both in terms of sales and auto journalists' opinions.
Oh, and I'm not anti-GM -- I grew up on GM iron, look at my user name, and I had a 1977 Chevy Impala (bought with over 100K miles on it) that was a fine car for me at the time.
It was reported this week that Toyota is looking for sites in the U.S. to build another assembly plant, it's 8th I believe. Yes, it's a foreign company but continuing to invest in the U.S. and hire U.S. workers.
G.M. and Ford are U.S.-based companies, yet how many plants in Mexico does each have? Several, I believe.
I don't pretend to understand NAFTA, globalization, etc... I'm just looking for the best product that I can afford when I purchase a car. It's good that GM and Ford products like the Fusion and upcoming Malibu are worth considering vs. Camry or Accord. But foreign vs. domestic doesn't factor into my decision. The car companies are international entities.
"Build 'em where you sell 'em" is their motto. That's why Toyota for one is looking to build another plant in North America (US or Canada), and I think it will be their 8th. Honda also recently decided to add another assembly plant; this one will be in Indiana.
Once a plant is built, suppliers follow. Again, all the big players in the supplier industry are global.
And US workers are the beneficiaries, getting jobs with the automakers, suppliers, transport companies, and dealerships.
Source on edmunds...
scape2, "Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread" #10813, 6 Jan 2007 6:59 pm
So I suppose all that manufacturing equipment was actually made in US with Japanese labels on it to make the management feel good?
I watched a small clean industry open about a decade ago in our fair village. I watched the oriental men walk from the building to the apartments which were within .4 of a mile. I watched them sometimes ride in a station wagon. I suppose all those were really Americans opening the plant for the first couple of years to make sure it was run the way it should be? NOT.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Maybe you ought to check out Automotive News, not exactly a hotbed of liberalism, for what those plants and workers are really like. It is based in Detroit, and was founded in 1925.
Were foreign companies building cars here then?
>And "scape2" is supposed to be some kind of authority on the subject?
Are you an expert on the subject that it's not as another person descibed? If you wish to say you disagree, you don't have to throw terms like "liberalism" and "some kind of authority" around. I'll take it for what it's worth.
If someone wishes to tell him he's lying, feel free to post in the other discussion.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
FWIW, I work in an automotive-related field (and have for over 27 years), so I do think I have some knowledge of how the auto industry works (and how to separate fact from fiction).
dude you are all over the place. I'd need a interpreter to understand what you just said. :confuse:
I was asking for a tariff on those sweat shop made Chinese Chery Dodge rebadge models. Read my whole post again carefully before blowing a gasket unless you are all for the importation of them ????
Yes Rocky - brilliant idea - more tarrifs, less competition. Lets screw 250 million Americans and save 50 thosand jobs. Why not?
A tariff on the chinese cars might save some transplant jobs also. A real tariff on all imports would save more than 50K jobs because the domestics and transplants would have to build plants here to sell vehicals here. I suppose you see something wrong with that. I think it would be a great idea to build Lexus's here and make ford bring back the fusion plant or they'd be tariffed.
Perhaps you don't which is why you have the right to your opinion.
Rocky
If they buy the car because they think it will add status to them then yes they are idiots. If they buy the car because they just like it than no they aren't idiots.
2. You turn around and state that people that drive American, love America more.
Well buying a import car after talking to WWII vets like I have said it's like a slap in their face.
3. You said that when people trash Caddy, that's a slap in the face to Lemko.
It is a slap in lemko's face because some of the comments being made were about how cadillac's don't last a long time without falling apart, and only gangster's and old folks in their 70's drive them. *shakes head* :confuse:
So what kind of people are you slapping in the face?
I'm not trying to slap anyone in their faces but was merely defending the domestics reliability, quality, performance, records vs. the anti-domestic crowd.
Rocky
Yeah those 3800's were junk because they often didn't run much more than 350K.
Did those rust away like most of the foreign cars in the 80s? Still running but the driver has wood inthe floor boards!!!
Just 80's let's try 1990's. My friends Accords and Camry's from the early 90's were rusting in the 1996-97 time frame. I use to tell them my 92' Bonnevile is is the same year as your accord and look at who's car is lasting longer. :P That use to peeve them off.
Rocky
Great post pal. I especially like the line where you said the machinery was made in the U.S. and the japanese put "made in Japan" labels on it to make them feel good.
Rocky
Rocky
Now to be fair, all those Buicks, Cadillacs and Olds were powered by V6's and V8's when the Japanese produced mostly 4-cylinder and a few V6 models. For a fair comparison, how about a 1990 Lexus LS400 vs 1990 Seville? 1997 Lumina vs 1997 Camry? And let's not talk 4-cyl domestics that tried to compete with the Japanese because they were all junk and we all know it. The domestic automakers wish you would forget those small junky models, while the comparable Japanese are proud people remember theirs.
I am not a GM basher but there is no way to prove that segment-to-segment, domestic run longer than Japanese.
Rocky
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16503845/
The next generation EV1 is back and badder than ever !!!! :shades:
Rocky
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=119088?tid=edmunds.il.ho- me.photopanel..2.*
Rocky
Now that is completely untrue.
Didn't GM start it with the China-built 3.4 V6? I bet it did make u sick but not to the point of puking
Also, what's the difference between a Korean rebadged Chevy and a chinese rebadged Dodge? Whatever you can say about Chinese cars was also said about Koreans 15 years ago.
1- Toyota Camry: ------------ 448,445 up 4%
2- Toyota Corolla: ---------- 387,388 up 14%
3- Honda Accord: ------------ 354,441 down 4%
4- Honda Civic: ------------- 316,638 up 3%
5- Chevy Impala: ------------ 289,868 Up 18%
6- Nissan Altima: ----------- 232,457 down 9%
7- Chevy Cobalt: ------------ 211,449 Down 1%
8- Ford Focus: -------------- 177,006 down 4%
9- Ford Taurus: ------------- 174,803 down 11%
10 - Ford Mustang: --------- 166,530 up 4%
11- Chevy Malibu: ---------- 163,853 Down 20%
12- Pontiac G6: ------------ 157,644 Up 26%
13- Hyundai Sonata: -------- 149,513 up 15%
14- Chrysler 300: ---------- 143,647 flat
15- Ford Fusion: ----------- 142,502 up 739%
16- Chrysler PT Cruiser: --- 138,650 up 4%
17- BMW 3-Series: ---------- 120,180 up 12%
18- Nissan Sentra:---------- 117,922 down 1%
19- Dodge Charger: --------- 114,201 up 156%
20- Pontiac Grand Prix: ---- 108,634 down 11%
If someone wishes to tell him he's lying, feel free to post in the other discussion.
Maybe _he_ cares that someone doesn't agree with him.
EOD.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I am typically weary of people who make generalizations about cars, races, political parties or whatever. Anyone contending that all domestic cars are "crap" without any regard for the facts is extremely biased and unreasonable. It's apparent that you have been burned in the past by domestic products or by surly UAW workers and now you are on some type of "facts be damned" vendetta agaisnt anything not engineered in Japan or Germany.
The Aura lacks a four cylinder so its pretty obvious that it wont match the mileage of an Accord 4 cylinder. The Malibu and G6 can do that however.
The Trailblzer is completely outdated and near the bottom of the class, notice I had nothing to say about it. The Explorer has an IRS, 6 speed auto and a much nicer interior than any 4Runner. Excactly what makes you think the Toyota is better? It's not styling, its not fuel economy, it's not technology or powertrain. What are you basing this on besides having a Toyota badge?
"I think it is an unfair statement to say that the fair-minded buyer MUST prefer the GM product every time."
Dont be ridiculous, I never made such a statement and I am not naive enough to think GM has best in class vehicles across the board. I do take issue with your assertion that the C6 is the only worhwhile Big 3 vehicle on the market. That statement cant be made by a reasonable person. What about the Acadia, SRX, Silverado/Sierra, STS-V, XLR, G6, Solstice, Lucerne, 300, Fusion, Pacifica, Cobalt SS, Aura, etc.? Not to mention the upcoming Vue, Malibu, Equinix Sport and CTS. You really need to get past this mentality that domestics are only good at making body on frame SUVs, that isnt true in 2007.
However, what I also can't stand is for someone to say something like: If one doesn't buy domestic then he/she is not patriotic and does not love America. How is that any different from the McCarthyism back in the 50's? Last time I checked, we are now well into the 21 century and the economy is as globalized as it ever was.
I am going to admit here that it is not going to be easy to get my rear into a domestic anytime soon unless our Toyota, Honda and Lexus start to give us headaches. Just like many happy domestic owners are happy with their cars because of many trouble-free years, I see no point for them to switch to import as well. My motto is always: stick with what works, if it ain't break, don't fix it. But that doesn't stop me to have fun comparing cars to each other in an objective way.
That being said, I will still root for GM/Ford because strong competition is a good thing as well as a strong automobile industry is good for the country. Even I personally am unlikely to purchase a domestic but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a good entry (like the Aura and Fusion) to a friend, as I did many times. I think GM/Ford should really focus on attract first time buyers and keep them as loyal customers if they want to remain competitive. I know many other people just like me so trying to make a happy owner switch is awfully harder to do IMO.
The Explorer has an IRS, 6 speed auto and a much nicer interior than any 4Runner. Excactly what makes you think the Toyota is better?
It's not styling,
Styling is subjective. Not everyone likes the the wide mouth of the new Explorer, or the outdated been-there-seen-that body
its not fuel economy,
You are wrong. The 236hp V6 in the 4Runner gets 17/21 mpg with 4WD, while the less powerful 210hp in the Explorer gets a V8-like 15/19 mpg. In fact, even the V8 4Runner 4Wd gets better than the V6 Explorer (16/19 mpg)
it's not technology or powertrain "
The V8 4Runner is faster than the V8 Explorer. Go Figure! Thanks to the DOHC 'technology' that produces flat torque (more Torque than the explorer) without sacrificing fuel economy.
What are you basing this on besides having a Toyota badge?
Both the Explorer and Trailblazer saw a big loss of sales that threatens their very existance, more than 25% each last year. The 4Runner, however, managed to keep its sales flat. Why?
Top 6 winners
Toyota
Ford
Honda
Volvo
Chevrolet
the Year by a panel of automotive journalists. That 49-member panel also
named the Chevrolet Silverado as the 2007 North American Truck of the
Year.
The winners of the annual competition were named today at the start of
press preview days for the North American International Auto Show.
The Aura emerged on top from a field of 11 candidates for the car award.
Jurors gave the Aura a total of 205 points out of a maximum possible 490
points in the round of voting to pick the winning vehicle.
For the truck award, the Silverado was given 243 points out of the
maximum possible 490 points. The finalists were culled from a pool of 15
candidate trucks.
The process to choose the winning car and truck was changed for the 2007
award. This year, jurors cast a first round of ballots -- distributing
25 points among the candidates in the car and truck categories with no
more than 10 points given to a single vehicle -- to narrow the lists
down to three finalists.
A second vote had to be held for the truck category when it was
discovered, after the finalists had been announced, that the Jeep
Wrangler had been left off the initial ballot. But the Wrangler did not
get enough points in the revote to be added to the finalists in the
category.
Jurors then cast a second ballot to choose a winner from among the
finalists in each category. In each category, jurors had 10 points that
they could give to a single vehicle, or divide among the finalists.
This is the 14th year the awards have been handed out. Last year,
American Honda Motor Co. swept the awards with the Honda Civic and Honda
Ridgeline.
The jury includes Automotive News Executive Editor Edward Lapham and
Senior Writer Dale Jewett. Also on the jury are AutoWeek Editor Dutch
Mandel and Road Test Editor Natalie Neff. Automotive News and AutoWeek
are published by Crain Communications Inc.
1. Take it back to your Toyota dealer, that's if you haven't done so. Since you mentioned "mechanic" I am not sure if he's a Toyota certified mechanic or not. I would opt for the dealer before other mom-'n-pop shops.
2. Tell the dealer you have a new car and this shouldn't happen. Do no agree to take your car back unless they find the problem and fix it.
3. If they are trying to dance around the issue then talk to the manager. If the manager is a dancer too then I would first raise hell right there and later on call Toyota NA and raise hell again.
The 3.4 also was made in mexico and yes it made me nearly puke.
Rocky
The aircraft industry is in many ways like, perhaps even more evolved than the auto industry. I read recently that something like >40% of Airbus aircraft components are source from the US. Meanwhile, Boeing has large fuselage and wing sections made in Japan. The aircraft industry is already very multinational. Just like the car industry.
Rocky
Rocky
For dress clothes, you really should stick with a tailor. Unless you are flying to London or Hong Kong, your tailor is going to be in the US. One step down, Hickey Freeman, Hart Schaffner & Marx and Ike Behar make most of their products in the US or Canada. Alan Edmunds still makes its shoes in Wisconsin.
Casual is tough, but not important. Especially in the cycling world, you have a lot of small companies focused on US made: Swobo, Chrome to name a few.
In furniture, there are too many custom companies to list. Two great large US companies are Herman Miller and Knoll. You have some great niche companies like Anthrocarts as well.
The big computer companies are mainly US. Most source abroad. Chips are still made in the US, however. Dell still makes many of its computers in Texas.
In electronics, if you settle for digital, you will be stuck with Asian products. Go analog, and suddenly US dominates. Conrad Johnson and Carey for instance, make beautiful stereo equipment with sound quality that puts Asian digital to shame. And these are low price. If this was not off topic, I could post a huge list of US made high end sound equipment, including turn tables that sell for nearly 100k.
Who buys jets here? In any event, Airbus is beginning to tank. It concentrated on making the aircraft equivalent of the SUV, and has not shown it will be able to get it to market. Meanwhile, Boeing is really starting to relaunch. The 777 and 787 are ordered well into the next decade. The revamped 747 is stealing orders from the Airbus 388. And the redesign of the 737 is coming in a year or so.
1. For suits, only buy tailor-made and don't buy off the rack.
2. Casual is not important if it's made in USA or not but dress cloths is.
3. Only buy custom furnitures. Rooms to Go is off the list.
4. It is okay for computer companies to outsource overboard but GM and Chrysler is not suppose to outsourcing China.
5. Only buy analog electronics. BTW, pops, has WWII ended yet on your side of the world?
6. FYI, Boeing hasn't received any order for revamped 747's passenger version yet. However, I think it is going to do well against the A380.
To stick with it, I better be beefing up my spending and ready to return my lifestyle to the the 50's.
I know of one - my brother-in-law who drives a 1997 Nissan Altima as a beater car in lieu of his Mercedes S430. However, the car is practically held together with duct tape and baling wire and has a "nice" black finish courtesy of Krylon.
Many Philadelphia taxicabs, (mostly Crown Vics) have in excess of 300K on the clock.
CR surveying its subscribers for opinions on domestics is like MacWorld surveying its subscrivers for opinions about Microsoft.
Happy days are always just around the corner...