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I can think of one of those cars that's still in good shape, but I have yet to actually see it on the road. The other half-dozen or so are deep into beater territory, worse off than the half-dozen flip-light Accords I see around here.
I can't even get past the sales experience with Toyota.
I'll agree with you on this one. Honda dealers aren't much better, for that matter, & I'm a big fan of Honda vehicles. (Bought my 1st new car, a Civic, back in '74, & I currently have an '06 CRV.) In my area, their salespeople are either jerks or idiots. Thank God that I didn't have to pick my salesman's brain when I bought my CRV.
In contrast, a Cadillac salesman who helped me a few years ago when I stopped by to look at the CTS was competent & courteous - a real sales professional. If & when I decide to buy a Cadillac, I'll look for him.
I can think of one of those cars that's still in good shape, but I have yet to actually see it on the road. The other half-dozen or so are deep into beater territory, worse off than the half-dozen flip-light Accords I see around here.
I still see those first-gen FWD C- and H-bodies fairly regularly. In fact, there was this caramel-colored late 80's Olds 88 that started showing up in the parking lot at work. One evening though, outside the back entrance, I saw it broken down along the road. A couple months ago, my '76 LeMans stalled out at that same spot.
I see a cranberry Electra pretty regularly when I stop off at the liquor store that looks like it's in pretty good shape. Hey Lemko, want me to ask the guy if he wants to sell it?
Oh no, it's not one of those "real" Electras. Hell, if it had a 403, I'd try to buy it myself! This is another late 80's model, like what you have. I can't remember if it's a Park Ave or just an Electra though.
Also, every once in awhile, I'll see a fairly young guy driving around in mid-80's Bonneville, the Malibu-based G-body. Looks like it's still in really good shape. Kinda shocking to see, but then maybe people say the same thing about me when they see me driving around in one of my '79 NY'ers!
There's also an early 80's Phoenix coupe that I see from time to time at work. White, and looks like it just rolled off the showroom floor. I know THAT has to be an anomaly though!
There's some young guys around my neighborhood who have a really nice champange-colored late '80s Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight Regency. They expressed interest in buying my Park Ave. There may yet be hope for the youth of America!
They separated us were throwing all kinds of terms at my girlfriend
How and why did they seperate you?
If your lady friend really wants a Camry I would try another dealership. If under different ownership I'm sure the experience would be much better.
Three out of the five cars I've owned have been made by the general. All very good and reliable. Current ride 99 Buick Regal (85k miles) has been excellent... will have owned 5 years in March.
2020 Honda Accord EX-L, 2011 Hyundai Veracruz, 2010 Mercury Milan Premiere, 2007 Kia Optima
"I am not sure about your "water under the bridge" comment, but I'll give it a shot... "
The comment referred to a post in discussing the Toyota sludge problem. I was calling them out about how he could consider this issue "water under the bridge" when the problem has been only about 10 years old yet it not be "water under the bridge " to someone who may have bought a Big 3 product 30 years ago and had one bad experience.
In fairness to Cadillac, I must say that the car that interested me - the '05 CTS - was actually quite good. I didn't buy the car because my wife disliked the instrument panel, but both of us were impressed by how well it handled.
My wife wound up with a Lexus ES, & she's quite happy with it. But if I had to choose between a Lexus & a CTS for myself, I'd go with the Cadillac.
I can't even get past the sales experience with Toyota.
No disagreement here, there's a couple Toyota dealers I've been to that made me feel like I needed a shower when I left. But I've also bought from 2 other Toyota dealers and the experience was positive. Hondas I've bought over the years have been the same, some good, some not so good. But none of those compare to the 2 Nissan dealers I attempted to purchase. Those guys were the worst of the worst. But the domestics I bought years ago weren't necessarily a picnic either.
Dealing with dealers is a necessary evil, bad experience and I walk.
But if I had to choose between a Lexus & a CTS for myself, I'd go with the Cadillac
Me too, I like the CTS. I was recently at Disney world and went on the GM Test Track ride--it was a hoot--and it ended up in a "showroom." My wife and I sat in a new CTS and we both liked it . . . a lot. Though to me the upper seat cushion felt a little pronounced. Still, I'll put it on my short list for my next purchase.
And by the way, federal prosecutors are in the executive branch and answerable to the Attorney General, who answers to the President. The judicial branch can't prosecute anyone for anything.
One can only wonder why Richard Nixon aka tricky dicky resigned? For that matter why would Gerald Ford have to pardon him?
lemko: "The only people I know who've ever complained about their cars - whether foreign or domestic - were they people who treated them like garbage. They never serviced them, let small problems turn into big ones, changed their oil like once a decade, never washed them, and the interiors were so filthy they should've been declared biohazards"...maybe so, but the number of cars of ANY make out there after 20 years is few, so your sample still does not account for the mass exodus of the average American from the Big 3 and over to the imports...your reasoning is flawless for you, but does not work with them, and it is "them" that the Big 3 need for sales volume, 'cuz there ain't enough lemkos out there...
My wife had a thing about Toyotas. Her first 79 Celica was a great car, other than the passenger side rear view mirror falling off. Every Celica I saw had the same issue, a missing right side mirror. 5 years on the same battery.
In 82 she switched to a Supra, and awesome car. Better than the 82 VETT. Again the battery lasted 5 years and no abnormal problems.
In 92 she got the Camry from hell, both front window motors, the supposed 100,000 mile coolant ate the radiator, water pump, freeze plugs, then the motor mounts came down on the power assited rack and pinion steering, the battery lasted 2 years. The air conditioning broke 4 times, twice while out of warranty. All four brake lines popped off at the same time. This was the first year model, however, this was way too much. If you look under MSN reliability ratings 92 through 95 were dogs.
That was her last Toyota. If they would have acknowledged that this last car was anything but cheap to keep and tried to attone, maybe she would feel different. I can get you the service record, and have shown it to Toyota and they have done nothing whatsoever.
Hey, that similar experience has happened to me on my current and last GM. Shock absorber at under 5K, MAP Sensor which nearly caused 2 accidents :lemon: law filed), power steering pump blew en route, 2 battery drain conditions, A/C compressor failed, and the air bag sensor failed. Worst experience since my Dad's 1988 FWB which was a compete disaster.
Bob, I can't say my sample is any different. Now, I don't keep my cars for 20 years, but my '88 Regal was ok for 14 years (biggest problem was them damned rear capilers), with some small bugaboos, '94 Astro, 2.5 yrs of trouble free driving, '91 GMC pu, 9 yrs, 2 starters ($50 ea) an alt. ($125) and a shock bracket and gas tank (too much sand got in between it and the plastic housing, and wore a hole) '98 Jimmy, 5 years (rear latch) '99 Ultra 6.5 yrs and counting,( door handle, seat belt latch, MAF sensor) '04 Rainier, 5 yrs and counting, ( ps rack replaced under warranty, heated seat element, and 1 broken piece of trim)
Trouble free??? No. But nothing major, and nothing that would make me say "never again", and the $600 in tires I put on the Ultra 3 months ago is more than I've ever spent on a repair on any of them.
BTW, if lemko ever saw them he'd cry at how filthy they are, and none of them were ever garaged...
This was the first year model, however, this was way too much. If you look under MSN reliability ratings 92 through 95 were dogs.
That's interesting, because I'd always heard that the 1992-96 was the pinnacle of quality for the Camry. That it was almost TOO good for the price, so they've been de-contenting them ever since to keep them out of Lexus territory. Although what's probably really happened was simply that increased competition caused them to cheapen the Camry.
One of the managers here at work had a Camry V-6 of that generation, and I think he got it up to around 200,000 miles. It had a lot of problems by that time though, and IIRC, he ended up giving it to his mechanic.
Still, I'm not trying to refute your experience in any way. Sometimes even the highest rated cars go bad. I have some friends, a married couple, who asked me for advice on a new small car back in 1994. Even though I have a preference for Chrysler and GM, even I had trouble recommending their small-car offerings. So I recommended a Civic. One of my friends was miffed, because he wanted to push them into something like a Plymouth Sundance or Dodge Shadow! Well wouldn't you know it, that '94 Civic turned out to be one gigantic turd! It blew a head gasket, and then had a/c problems. Around 80,000 miles, head gasket #2 blew, and they decided to dump it I swear that car turned out to be a lemon simply because I recommended it. And of course, my Sundance loving friend was just loving this. :P
They replaced the Civic with a 1998 or so Saturn S-series...I guess it's not that often that a Honda sends someone running and screaming back to General Motors!
Your experience, along with lemkos, is why the Big 3 market share has not dropped to zero, and no one says that it would...they can and do make decent cars...
But my repetitive point is that your experiences apparently do NOT reflect what many (not most, not all) Americans have experienced over the last 20 years...depending on the cars and the number and type of problems people had, for some it is water under the bridge, for some/many it is "Big 3???...Never again...Never"...and the number who say never again has been growing over the years, and it would seem that the Big 3 aggravated them enough by not addressing their concerns, so they are going elsewhere in ever-increasing numbers...
It isn't that I don't respect your experiences with Big 3, but you must recognize that you are members of an ever-dwindling minority of people who are "Big 3 or die"...and if they continue to lose more buyers to the imports, for whatever reason, you may end up with your cars in Cuba, as that is where they seem to last the longest...
"....and it would seem that the Big 3 aggravated them enough by not addressing their concerns, so they are going elsewhere in ever-increasing numbers..."
But is that the biggest reason?? How many young buyers out there are "2nd generation" import buyers, meaning they, now in their mid 20's, just go out and buy what their parents have been buying for years, or the tuner crowd.
I also have another theory. A shift in immigration from Europe to Asia/ S. America. Years back, immigrants seemed to want to embrace EVERYTHING American, and that included buying American cars. Now, I see them demanding we speak THEIR language, embracing THEIR culture, and driving what they drove back home.
I do agree with your premise, but is it now the biggest reason. We have a saying in our Bocce league: "Crumbs make bread". SO I think that there is alot of issues that conspire in the downturn in the Big 3 (More choices than ever before is another).
I paid $600 for tires too. NTB runs a sale on buy 3 and get one free, if you buy their five year/lifetime alignment. So every other oil, I get there when they open. The car rides like new, the tires last longer. Rotate, balance, and align.
I wax my car weekly too. Use RainX on the windows. Condition/clean the interior. This is my 2001 Catera, 2002 Camaro, and soon I'll be doing the CTS. Each car takes 2 hours. I just like clean cars and when it does rain, less stuff sticks to them. Most people think they are newer than they are. When I have extra time I tend to take things/cars apart to kill time. My oldest has an 2002 Camaro too and its dirty most of the time, much like his dorm room. My youngest has a CTS too and I'm going to educate him before he goes off to college.
My home is lean, clean, clutter free, and I'm getting more minimalist. It exudes positive energy with its colors, no white walls. I still have a ways to go, as I always have more brilliant ideas. Well I steal some ideas too.
"Look how the undeserved incomes of CEOs have increased compared to the workplace in general, and look at the economic picture they have wrought. Look at the good old boys club that exists among these souless cowards and how they are recycled like bad garbage from one overpaid position to another. They are lucky religion still keeps the poor from killing the rich, or these guys would be dragged out of bed at night and shot on a regular basis."
No doubt that some CEO salaries are overpaid based on their performance. Whose fault is that? The CEO's? What's he supposed to do, turn down the salary offer? If he signed an employment contract that called for severance, is he supposed to waive that?
In our relatively free market, you're worth what someone is willing to pay you. You may think it's too much, unfair, undeserved, immoral or whatever inflammatory adjective you want to use, but it's none of your business unless you're a stockholder of the company. And in that case your options are to vote against the board that agreed to pay that salary or sell your stock. Otherwise, mind your own business - I've got no more right to tell you how much you should get paid than you do to tell me how much I should get paid.
Unfortunately, the rule that you're worth what someone is willing to pay you doesn't apply to union work. In that case, your pay is unrelated to the value you bring to the table; instead, it's dependent on how much seniority you have and the contract the union signed with the company. At the end of the day, how you perform your job is virtually irrelevant.
Bocce league? Why don't you guys go do some American bowling? Surely you can gamble there as easily as you can playing bocce ball. :P
"At tomorrow’s UAW meeting in Detroit, union officials will be asked to reopen a 2007 labor agreement, said one person familiar with the forum, who asked not be named because it’s private.
The union needs to agree to eliminate the so-called jobs bank program that pays laid off workers as much as 95 percent of their base pay, said Erich Merkle, an automotive analyst with Crowe Horwath LLP in Grand Rapids, Michigan."
Around this forum, there's a lot more whining about the excessive compensation of union workers (of course, no crying about public sector union workers) than the grand CEO robbery which has been gathering steam for some time now.
There's no such thing as a free market, it is all a variation of socialism.
I'll mind whichever business I choose. If you don't like it, you are more than free to try to do something about it - oh yeah, you have no recourse, so tone down your own inflammatory whine and simply ignore anyone who dares to complain about the segment of society that is doing more damage than any other. By your logic, I can simply go buy a single share of any company with a CEO I wish to complain about, and then rant away. Sorry, the real world doesn't work that way. You aren't one of these overpaid irresponsible cowardly sucks, so you have no reason to be offended. And in the off chance you are one of them...well, class warfare is going to be a harsh reality thanks to the economic realities being produced by the irresponsible top 1%....so beware.
"At the end of the day, how you perform your job is virtually irrelevant."
The EXACT same ideal applies to the world of corporate executives. It's as much a problem in militant unions as it is in the incestuous and clueless ranks of executive management and corporate cronies.
GM Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner will cut debt, shuffle U.S. brands and offer to work for $1 a year
When he says cut debt he means strong arm the lender into forgiving some of the $66 billion GM owes. All that will do is leave a void in some banking institution for US to bail out. So the GM bailout as it stands could be more than $80 billion.
If I were a director of GM, I'd try to have Waggoner fired for cause to avoid paying any severance. But you're right that most public company directors are in the pocket of the CEO to a large degree and rarely (if ever) never stand up to him. But I get pissed off when class warfare is stirred up against all CEOs simply because they make a ton of money. If a CEO increases a company's market cap by billions of dollars and makes a hundreds of long term stockholders millionaires, paying him a couple hundred million in stock options is a bargain.
And as for public sector union workers, their unfunded pension liabilities makes the UAW pensions look golden by comparison. I've read that paying for the total pension liabilities at all levels of government may turn out to be worse than social security and Medicare combined.
Yep, that's me!!! I came to the US in '84 fully wanting to drive a US car! I bought a '79 4cyl Pontiac Sunbird. Clean, mechanically as sound as it gets... What a POS that car was! Radiator leaked, brakes failed, rough engine (iron Duke), truck trans, poor ride, poor handling... There was an '86 Sprint and an '84 VW Diesel in between. Later I got a '91 Continental... 'nuff said!!!
I now have 4 Hondas, a '91 Accord, a '99 Ody, an '05 CR-V, and an '07 Element!
No BS with any of them. I cannot wear out the Accord!!!
>I can simply go buy a single share of any company with a CEO I wish to complain about, and then rant away. Sorry, the real world doesn't work that way.
Indeed correct. Even voting stock one owns in companies has No effect--not even if all the individual owners vote that stock on issues put up for vote for the annual meeting, e.g. The banks, mutual funds, hedge funds, etc., who hold stock have the majority of votes and control the direction of the vote. And because they themselves are big business they have allowed the higher and higher executive compensation packages to the heads of the companies; after all they are just like the managers of the funds, banks, etc., so they deserve higher compensation.
>"Based on my own personal experiences, as well as my friends and families owning Detroit's vehicles over the last 25 years, none of us fit in to your example."
Bought my first B3 vehicle in 1958. Fifty years ago. There have been close to 70 vehicles we have purchased. Most were bought new. All Big3 through 1987. Then a Ram in 96. Way too many problems!
Getting too old for that crap!
I traded the Ram for an 03 Pilot. The 87 Olds was traded in 95 for a 95 Maxima and that for an 03 CR-V. We have been happy with all 3 of those imports.
Occasionally some free updates have been performed while we had them in for routine service. I have no problem with that. That is better than waiting for the failure to occur, as has been our experience with Detroit iron.
Yep, that's me!!! I came to the US in '84 fully wanting to drive a US car! I
Cwalti -
I had that same experience but sort of indirectly, around 1988. Mrs. Lokki was working for a Japanese company, and one executive and two engineers were transferred from Japan. They ALL wanted to buy American cars.
The executive because he thought it would look good to his American counterparts to drive American. He ended up with a Caprice Classic. He didn't want a Caddy because, in his mind, he thought it would make him look too flashy.
One of the engineers was a motor-head and he wanted a Z28 because he couldn't get one in Japan.
The other engineer just wanted to try something different than a Toyota, so what the heck, he bought a Z24 Cavalier. Nice black car with an upgraded interior and a V6 engine. Good handling, and quick. When he bought it I was kind of impressed with it. Thought I'd helped him make a pretty decent choice.
Me? I bought an Acura Integra. Cost about the same as the Cavalier; maybe a little more.
What a hassle those 3 Chevys turned out to be! Since I'd helped in doing the negotiations, I ended up with an obligation to help when they were having problems with the cars. Besides, I had my American pride in the game! I really wanted America to look good.
But we didn't.
The Caprice would never start when it was cold. I kept taking it to the dealer, but Chevy couldn't fix it. The Caprice had a carb that was set up for pollution and not for starting in cold weather. I don't even think it HAD adjustments. The executive hated leaving a meeting at some company and going outside only to have car trouble. It was embarassing as well as annoying. He dumped it after the first winter and bought a first-year Lexus LS400.
The motorhead was shocked that the Z28 - performance car - didn't have IRS. He liked the car though because it was fast, and he loved that big V8 loafing along at 1500 RPM at wayyyyy illegal speeds. But it was laughably crude . Big hump in the passenger side floor for the Cat. Trim pieces started falling off. Then the Z28 blew a head gasket. He wasn't too worried but surprised that it happened on a stock engine. Overall his view of the car was that it was like a girl you meet at a country-music bar around closing time. Fun,fun, fun but - you don't want to live with her.
The Cavalier wasn't a really bad car, but it was instructive in its own way. A wheel bearing failed at 12,100 miles. Took it to the dealer. The Service Writer told us that GM wouldn't pay for it, but as a favor he was going to write it up as 11,100 miles. That warned me off GM cars. I didn't want to be dependent on the good will of a Service Writer willing to cheat his company.
After 4 years, the Caprice was long gone, the Z28 had been stolen, and the paint and trim were falling off the Cavalier . It just looked like Hell.
My Integra? Just fine, thank you, and worth a lot more than the Cavalier at trade in.
>GM Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner will cut debt, shuffle U.S. brands and offer to work for $1 a year
Salary of $1/year. What about "bonuses"?? That itself is in millions even though the company is in red. how in the world do they manage to pay out bonuses when the company made a loss?????
>Yep, that's me!!! I came to the US in '84 fully wanting to drive a US car!
that is me too!
I always used to see pictures of the Pontiac firebird, trans am.....and drool over them. Came to the US. Sat in them, heard about the horror stories from owners about reliability and did not buy any.
It's a start but only a tiny one. We need milestones that must be reached according to their plans to qualify each step in the funding process. We will see what the UAW contributes to those milestones.
DETROIT, April 25 (Reuters) - General Motors Corp (GM.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) Chief Executive Rick Wagoner's salary and other compensation rose 64 percent in 2007 to about $15.7 million, mainly due to option grants, according to a proxy filed on Friday.
The GM compensation committee cited significant progress over the past few years in reducing the automaker's health care cost burden, increasing growth internationally and improvements in its cars and trucks in the 2007 awards to executives.
Wagoner's compensation rose from about $9.57 million in 2006. The figure was arrived at based on Wagoner's salary, all other compensation and the basis of annual grants.
I have repeated the same thing again and again on this site. Actual income was 1.8 million(ok I was off a $100k or so). Option grants are worthless. From the GM proposal submitted to congress yesterday.
A.7 GM Executive Compensation Total Compensation in the Bottom Quartile Compared to the Benchmark Companies o No bonuses 2005, 2008 o Below target bonuses 2004, 2006, 2007 o No long term incentive pay out 2004 through 2008 o All stock options 1999-2008 underwater o Value of restricted stock units fell with GM‘s stock price In addition, CEO/Chairman, COO/President and Vice Chairman o Salaries reduced as much as 50% from 2006 to 2007 o CEO has or will forfeit 330,000 options in 2008 and 2009 Other o Supplemental Executive Retirement Plan (SERP) frozen and adopted lower accrual rate consistent with the tax-qualified plan on December 31, 2006 o 401k matching contribution eliminated in 2008 o Post-65 healthcare benefits eliminated for all salaried employees, including executives As a result of these pay practices, as indicated in the table below, the actual compensation received compared to the Proxy reported compensation shows that the CEO and COO have actually earned far less than what is publicly reported. 2007 Actual Compensation Received
Maybe Wagoner needs to give Reuters a lesson in truthful reporting. Why would I believe this when last June it was widely posted that Wagoner received total compensation of $15.7 million. There is a big discrepancy there. Something is missing.
Even if his total package was $1.8 million. He has done a lousy job for 14 years. Why should my tax dollars be spent to carry on his style of poor management?
Another figure for his package. it is the $38.7 billion loss that tells a story.
The Securities and Exchange Commission filings reported earlier this year that gave Mr. Wagoner, the company's chairman and chief executive, a 33% raise for 2008 and equity compensation of at least $1.68 million for his performance in 2007, a year for which the auto maker reported a loss of $38.7 billion. The salary increase puts Mr. Wagoner's salary for this year at $2.2 million, compared with $1.65 million in 2007.
Maybe Wagoner needs to give Reuters a lesson in truthful reporting. Why would I believe this when last June it was widely posted that Wagoner received total compensation of $15.7 million. There is a big discrepancy there. Something is missing.
The reported income in the annual report includes stock options. They are worthless. How many times have I repeated this here in the last 6 months? If you really feel that GM would lie about their CEO's income right in front of all those congressman and on worldwide TV I see why you have an issue with GM.
If you really feel that GM would lie about there CEO's income right in front of all those congressman and on worldwide TV I see why you have an issue with GM.
My major issue is giving GM more money to waste. They have not made a decent profit when all the other automakers were doing great. That says to me they will NEVER make a decent profit and should not be given more money to waste.
Save the money for the lives they will ruin when they go belly up. GM going broke is no fault of the tax payers or the government. It lies right on the shoulders of management. Of course I believe the UAW played a part. But mostly poor decisions on the part of management.
With 10 million out of work, what's a couple hundred thousand more. Obama will put them to work rebuilding highways and bridges. Which is a good thing.
GM going broke is no fault of the tax payers or the government
With 10 million out of work, what's a couple hundred thousand more. Obama will put them to work rebuilding highways and bridges. Which is a good thing.
I disagree, right after the dot com bust the govt (FED) began the lowering of interest rates, which created the housing bubble/bust. Rather than endure a mild recession, we began the lowering of rates, which prior were being raised in order to starve off inflation. This along with tax breaks to stimulate economic activity are a direct result of a president running for a second term and not sound fiscal or monetary policy. Now we have both high prices (inflation) and contraction in the private sector (unemployment). Its far better for the private sector to employ people than the govt via public works. Private sector jobs have a much greater multiplier effect on the economy and produce taxes, which is the govt's income. Govt spending on public works will sooner or later have to be repaid and should be the last resort when all else fails. So its just a choice of spending tax money (which may be repaid) on a bail out and has a good chance of generating taxes, much like the banking system, or spending tax money on public works which are unlikely to generate any taxes.
We can't begin to count the times that building an arena/stadium (welfare for the rich) have been pushed for because they bring in taxes and jobs. The same applies here. UAW jobs bring in a better tax base into the economy if only because they pay better than non union jobs.
Do you live around Troy, MI. pal ??? I will be headed their next week for some Saturn Training. My boss said their is a chance I might get to shake hands with either Wagoner, LaNeve, or Henderson, while I'm their since our owner is tight with that crowd. That would be pretty cool to meet a man (Wagoner) who was one of my childhood hero's as shocking as that might sound to some due to my very pro-union ties. I've read and followed Mr. Wagoner's rise to power ever since I was a child. What surprises me the most is how ignorant many people are regarding the bailout. I've have dealt with so many so uneducated people on the subject matter and have bit my lip so many times that they are like Hubba Bubba !!! :P 62' don't be a stranger and not say hello if you get a chance pal !!!
-Rocky
P.S. I'm very well liked by my coworkers and it's a great fit for me guys !!! I love the dealership I work for and have already been established as the go to guy and am nick named Mr. Edmunds !!!
Its far better for the private sector to employ people than the govt via public works.
I agree. Obama in his stimulus plan has asked for $136 billion to be distributed to the states for upgrading the infrastructure and bridges. In addition he has proposed $40 billion to give health care to the poor.
One of their top priorities is funding for an estimated $136 billion in infrastructure projects - mostly roads, bridges and sewers - that states have indicated are "ready to go" or are no more than a few months from being started.
"States can move quickly to put this money on the ground," Hackney said. "The infrastructure projects are important because it's such a win-win."
A billion dollars in infrastructure investment translates into roughly 40,000 new jobs, economists say.
See there $2 billion will cover all those UAW guys that lose their jobs when GM goes broke. That is a lot cheaper than $18 b with no real plan to ever become solvent.
>We can't begin to count the times that building an arena/stadium (welfare for the rich)
I sat in a new arena with a retractable roof two weekends back and marveled at the $780 initial price tag which I assume ended up on $1,000,000,000 and more for a football team to play in in Indy. The city gives tax incentives to encourage businesses to open in a tourist strip.
Does that arena make many jobs? 11 football games at home during the year for the Colts. The jobs are primarily minimum wage and the food service jobs are contracted out to Home Plate (IIRC) and who knows what they pay their employees. The custodial staff is probably contracted. Who knows what and how much they are paid.
The difference here is a problem with perception of how much a fraction of the employees are paid and their benefits.
Call your congressperson's office to tell them to keep jobs in the auto industry. As for the plan required, tell them they didn't require plans for AIG, the banks, brokers, etc., but we'll accept help with planning for the auto industry.
Wow, you said something nice about our president-elect !!! :surprise:
- GM's new line-up with be Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, Saturn. Hummer will be sold as will Saab, which might die like Oldsmobile if their is no buyers. I've very sad to learn this news because I would consolidate Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, under one brand name and keep only 4 or 5 models. If I were CEO, my plan would be to close Pontiac, Sell Hummer, and keep Saab, and add the Aura, Astra, Vue, to the Saab brand but keep the Saturn customer service philosophy !!!
Regardless the media has spread so many lies it's not even funny. It was nice hearing the truth from the horses mouth (Wagoner) on what was really going to happen !!!
Comments
I'll agree with you on this one. Honda dealers aren't much better, for that matter, & I'm a big fan of Honda vehicles. (Bought my 1st new car, a Civic, back in '74, & I currently have an '06 CRV.) In my area, their salespeople are either jerks or idiots. Thank God that I didn't have to pick my salesman's brain when I bought my CRV.
In contrast, a Cadillac salesman who helped me a few years ago when I stopped by to look at the CTS was competent & courteous - a real sales professional. If & when I decide to buy a Cadillac, I'll look for him.
Then, I negotiated further with the lowest dealer with the sales manager. It was what I expected at Honda. I'd rate the experience as satisfactory.
No way was I going to buy another GM with the experience with my 2003 GMC Yukon multiple failures.
BTW, I tried my best to Red Tag Sale a comparable model with the CR-V. Not even close in the value proposition.
Regards,
OW
I still see those first-gen FWD C- and H-bodies fairly regularly. In fact, there was this caramel-colored late 80's Olds 88 that started showing up in the parking lot at work. One evening though, outside the back entrance, I saw it broken down along the road. A couple months ago, my '76 LeMans stalled out at that same spot.
I see a cranberry Electra pretty regularly when I stop off at the liquor store that looks like it's in pretty good shape. Hey Lemko, want me to ask the guy if he wants to sell it?
Also, every once in awhile, I'll see a fairly young guy driving around in mid-80's Bonneville, the Malibu-based G-body. Looks like it's still in really good shape. Kinda shocking to see, but then maybe people say the same thing about me when they see me driving around in one of my '79 NY'ers!
There's also an early 80's Phoenix coupe that I see from time to time at work. White, and looks like it just rolled off the showroom floor. I know THAT has to be an anomaly though!
How and why did they seperate you?
If your lady friend really wants a Camry I would try another dealership. If under different ownership I'm sure the experience would be much better.
Three out of the five cars I've owned have been made by the general. All very good and reliable. Current ride 99 Buick Regal (85k miles) has been excellent... will have owned 5 years in March.
One has excellent product. Poor Salesmanship.
The Other has poor product and excellent salesmanship.
Who wins??
You know that they say, a good product speaks for itself
The comment referred to a post in discussing the Toyota sludge problem. I was calling them out about how he could consider this issue "water under the bridge" when the problem has been only about 10 years old yet it not be "water under the bridge " to someone who may have bought a Big 3 product 30 years ago and had one bad experience.
My wife wound up with a Lexus ES, & she's quite happy with it. But if I had to choose between a Lexus & a CTS for myself, I'd go with the Cadillac.
No disagreement here, there's a couple Toyota dealers I've been to that made me feel like I needed a shower when I left. But I've also bought from 2 other Toyota dealers and the experience was positive. Hondas I've bought over the years have been the same, some good, some not so good. But none of those compare to the 2 Nissan dealers I attempted to purchase. Those guys were the worst of the worst. But the domestics I bought years ago weren't necessarily a picnic either.
Dealing with dealers is a necessary evil, bad experience and I walk.
Me too, I like the CTS. I was recently at Disney world and went on the GM Test Track ride--it was a hoot--and it ended up in a "showroom." My wife and I sat in a new CTS and we both liked it . . . a lot. Though to me the upper seat cushion felt a little pronounced. Still, I'll put it on my short list for my next purchase.
One can only wonder why Richard Nixon aka tricky dicky resigned? For that matter why would Gerald Ford have to pardon him?
cooter: I think I got it now..................
In 82 she switched to a Supra, and awesome car. Better than the 82 VETT. Again the battery lasted 5 years and no abnormal problems.
In 92 she got the Camry from hell, both front window motors, the supposed 100,000 mile coolant ate the radiator, water pump, freeze plugs, then the motor mounts came down on the power assited rack and pinion steering, the battery lasted 2 years. The air conditioning broke 4 times, twice while out of warranty. All four brake lines popped off at the same time. This was the first year model, however, this was way too much. If you look under MSN reliability ratings 92 through 95 were dogs.
That was her last Toyota. If they would have acknowledged that this last car was anything but cheap to keep and tried to attone, maybe she would feel different. I can get you the service record, and have shown it to Toyota and they have done nothing whatsoever.
This will be my last GM.
Regards,
OW
Trouble free??? No. But nothing major, and nothing that would make me say "never again", and the $600 in tires I put on the Ultra 3 months ago is more than I've ever spent on a repair on any of them.
BTW, if lemko ever saw them he'd cry at how filthy they are, and none of them were ever garaged...
That's interesting, because I'd always heard that the 1992-96 was the pinnacle of quality for the Camry. That it was almost TOO good for the price, so they've been de-contenting them ever since to keep them out of Lexus territory. Although what's probably really happened was simply that increased competition caused them to cheapen the Camry.
One of the managers here at work had a Camry V-6 of that generation, and I think he got it up to around 200,000 miles. It had a lot of problems by that time though, and IIRC, he ended up giving it to his mechanic.
Still, I'm not trying to refute your experience in any way. Sometimes even the highest rated cars go bad. I have some friends, a married couple, who asked me for advice on a new small car back in 1994. Even though I have a preference for Chrysler and GM, even I had trouble recommending their small-car offerings. So I recommended a Civic. One of my friends was miffed, because he wanted to push them into something like a Plymouth Sundance or Dodge Shadow! Well wouldn't you know it, that '94 Civic turned out to be one gigantic turd! It blew a head gasket, and then had a/c problems. Around 80,000 miles, head gasket #2 blew, and they decided to dump it I swear that car turned out to be a lemon simply because I recommended it. And of course, my Sundance loving friend was just loving this. :P
They replaced the Civic with a 1998 or so Saturn S-series...I guess it's not that often that a Honda sends someone running and screaming back to General Motors!
But my repetitive point is that your experiences apparently do NOT reflect what many (not most, not all) Americans have experienced over the last 20 years...depending on the cars and the number and type of problems people had, for some it is water under the bridge, for some/many it is "Big 3???...Never again...Never"...and the number who say never again has been growing over the years, and it would seem that the Big 3 aggravated them enough by not addressing their concerns, so they are going elsewhere in ever-increasing numbers...
It isn't that I don't respect your experiences with Big 3, but you must recognize that you are members of an ever-dwindling minority of people who are "Big 3 or die"...and if they continue to lose more buyers to the imports, for whatever reason, you may end up with your cars in Cuba, as that is where they seem to last the longest...
But is that the biggest reason?? How many young buyers out there are "2nd generation" import buyers, meaning they, now in their mid 20's, just go out and buy what their parents have been buying for years, or the tuner crowd.
I also have another theory. A shift in immigration from Europe to Asia/ S. America. Years back, immigrants seemed to want to embrace EVERYTHING American, and that included buying American cars. Now, I see them demanding we speak THEIR language, embracing THEIR culture, and driving what they drove back home.
I do agree with your premise, but is it now the biggest reason. We have a saying in our Bocce league: "Crumbs make bread". SO I think that there is alot of issues that conspire in the downturn in the Big 3 (More choices than ever before is another).
I wax my car weekly too. Use RainX on the windows. Condition/clean the interior. This is my 2001 Catera, 2002 Camaro, and soon I'll be doing the CTS. Each car takes 2 hours. I just like clean cars and when it does rain, less stuff sticks to them. Most people think they are newer than they are. When I have extra time I tend to take things/cars apart to kill time. My oldest has an 2002 Camaro too and its dirty most of the time, much like his dorm room. My youngest has a CTS too and I'm going to educate him before he goes off to college.
My home is lean, clean, clutter free, and I'm getting more minimalist. It exudes positive energy with its colors, no white walls. I still have a ways to go, as I always have more brilliant ideas. Well I steal some ideas too.
No doubt that some CEO salaries are overpaid based on their performance. Whose fault is that? The CEO's? What's he supposed to do, turn down the salary offer? If he signed an employment contract that called for severance, is he supposed to waive that?
In our relatively free market, you're worth what someone is willing to pay you. You may think it's too much, unfair, undeserved, immoral or whatever inflammatory adjective you want to use, but it's none of your business unless you're a stockholder of the company. And in that case your options are to vote against the board that agreed to pay that salary or sell your stock. Otherwise, mind your own business - I've got no more right to tell you how much you should get paid than you do to tell me how much I should get paid.
Unfortunately, the rule that you're worth what someone is willing to pay you doesn't apply to union work. In that case, your pay is unrelated to the value you bring to the table; instead, it's dependent on how much seniority you have and the contract the union signed with the company. At the end of the day, how you perform your job is virtually irrelevant.
"At tomorrow’s UAW meeting in Detroit, union officials will be asked to reopen a 2007 labor agreement, said one person familiar with the forum, who asked not be named because it’s private.
The union needs to agree to eliminate the so-called jobs bank program that pays laid off workers as much as 95 percent of their base pay, said Erich Merkle, an automotive analyst with Crowe Horwath LLP in Grand Rapids, Michigan."
U.S. Automakers, UAW to ‘Genuflect’ to Split Congress (Bloomberg)
There's no such thing as a free market, it is all a variation of socialism.
I'll mind whichever business I choose. If you don't like it, you are more than free to try to do something about it - oh yeah, you have no recourse, so tone down your own inflammatory whine and simply ignore anyone who dares to complain about the segment of society that is doing more damage than any other. By your logic, I can simply go buy a single share of any company with a CEO I wish to complain about, and then rant away. Sorry, the real world doesn't work that way. You aren't one of these overpaid irresponsible cowardly sucks, so you have no reason to be offended. And in the off chance you are one of them...well, class warfare is going to be a harsh reality thanks to the economic realities being produced by the irresponsible top 1%....so beware.
"At the end of the day, how you perform your job is virtually irrelevant."
The EXACT same ideal applies to the world of corporate executives. It's as much a problem in militant unions as it is in the incestuous and clueless ranks of executive management and corporate cronies.
When he says cut debt he means strong arm the lender into forgiving some of the $66 billion GM owes. All that will do is leave a void in some banking institution for US to bail out. So the GM bailout as it stands could be more than $80 billion.
If I were a director of GM, I'd try to have Waggoner fired for cause to avoid paying any severance. But you're right that most public company directors are in the pocket of the CEO to a large degree and rarely (if ever) never stand up to him. But I get pissed off when class warfare is stirred up against all CEOs simply because they make a ton of money. If a CEO increases a company's market cap by billions of dollars and makes a hundreds of long term stockholders millionaires, paying him a couple hundred million in stock options is a bargain.
And as for public sector union workers, their unfunded pension liabilities makes the UAW pensions look golden by comparison. I've read that paying for the total pension liabilities at all levels of government may turn out to be worse than social security and Medicare combined.
Yep, that's me!!! I came to the US in '84 fully wanting to drive a US car! I bought a '79 4cyl Pontiac Sunbird. Clean, mechanically as sound as it gets... What a POS that car was! Radiator leaked, brakes failed, rough engine (iron Duke), truck trans, poor ride, poor handling... There was an '86 Sprint and an '84 VW Diesel in between. Later I got a '91 Continental... 'nuff said!!!
I now have 4 Hondas, a '91 Accord, a '99 Ody, an '05 CR-V, and an '07 Element!
No BS with any of them. I cannot wear out the Accord!!!
NEVER AGAIN!!!
Indeed correct. Even voting stock one owns in companies has No effect--not even if all the individual owners vote that stock on issues put up for vote for the annual meeting, e.g. The banks, mutual funds, hedge funds, etc., who hold stock have the majority of votes and control the direction of the vote. And because they themselves are big business they have allowed the higher and higher executive compensation packages to the heads of the companies; after all they are just like the managers of the funds, banks, etc., so they deserve higher compensation.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Bought my first B3 vehicle in 1958. Fifty years ago. There have been close to 70 vehicles we have purchased. Most were bought new. All Big3 through 1987. Then a Ram in 96. Way too many problems!
Getting too old for that crap!
I traded the Ram for an 03 Pilot. The 87 Olds was traded in 95 for a 95 Maxima and that for an 03 CR-V. We have been happy with all 3 of those imports.
Occasionally some free updates have been performed while we had them in for routine service. I have no problem with that. That is better than waiting for the failure to occur, as has been our experience with Detroit iron.
Kip
Cwalti -
I had that same experience but sort of indirectly, around 1988. Mrs. Lokki was working for a Japanese company, and one executive and two engineers were transferred from Japan. They ALL wanted to buy American cars.
The executive because he thought it would look good to his American counterparts to drive American. He ended up with a Caprice Classic. He didn't want a Caddy because, in his mind, he thought it would make him look too flashy.
One of the engineers was a motor-head and he wanted a Z28 because he couldn't get one in Japan.
The other engineer just wanted to try something different than a Toyota, so what the heck, he bought a Z24 Cavalier. Nice black car with an upgraded interior and a V6 engine. Good handling, and quick. When he bought it I was kind of impressed with it. Thought I'd helped him make a pretty decent choice.
Me? I bought an Acura Integra. Cost about the same as the Cavalier; maybe a little more.
What a hassle those 3 Chevys turned out to be! Since I'd helped in doing the negotiations, I ended up with an obligation to help when they were having problems with the cars. Besides, I had my American pride in the game! I really wanted America to look good.
But we didn't.
The Caprice would never start when it was cold. I kept taking it to the dealer, but Chevy couldn't fix it. The Caprice had a carb that was set up for pollution and not for starting in cold weather. I don't even think it HAD adjustments. The executive hated leaving a meeting at some company and going outside only to have car trouble. It was embarassing as well as annoying. He dumped it after the first winter and bought a first-year Lexus LS400.
The motorhead was shocked that the Z28 - performance car - didn't have IRS. He liked the car though because it was fast, and he loved that big V8 loafing along at 1500 RPM at wayyyyy illegal speeds. But it was laughably crude . Big hump in the passenger side floor for the Cat. Trim pieces started falling off. Then the Z28 blew a head gasket. He wasn't too worried but surprised that it happened on a stock engine. Overall his view of the car was that it was like a girl you meet at a country-music bar around closing time. Fun,fun, fun but - you don't want to live with her.
The Cavalier wasn't a really bad car, but it was instructive in its own way. A wheel bearing failed at 12,100 miles. Took it to the dealer. The Service Writer told us that GM wouldn't pay for it, but as a favor he was going to write it up as 11,100 miles. That warned me off GM cars. I didn't want to be dependent on the good will of a Service Writer willing to cheat his company.
After 4 years, the Caprice was long gone, the Z28 had been stolen, and the paint and trim were falling off the Cavalier . It just looked like Hell.
My Integra? Just fine, thank you, and worth a lot more than the Cavalier at trade in.
Rather than kissing up to you right then and there, they listened to you and made it better for the following years. At least that is my take on it.
Salary of $1/year. What about "bonuses"?? That itself is in millions even though the company is in red. how in the world do they manage to pay out bonuses when the company made a loss?????
that is me too!
I always used to see pictures of the Pontiac firebird, trans am.....and drool over them. Came to the US. Sat in them, heard about the horror stories from owners about reliability and did not buy any.
Last year Wagoner made 1.65 million in 2007. This year 2.2 million. No bonus's or income beyond that. For 2009 $1 and no bonus's.
there are also no golden parachutes for any GM employees.
I don't make the reality here. Yes, quality improved but nowhere near what I expect. My Yukon proves it to me from 2003 up until now.
I respect your reality if you have a good US-made vehicle but cheap parts are just that at the end of the day.
Hopefully when the new industry model emerges, we can once again be proud of our cars. I really hope it happens soon but I'm not holding my breath!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Bum scoop from somewhere...
DETROIT, April 25 (Reuters) - General Motors Corp (GM.N: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) Chief Executive Rick Wagoner's salary and other compensation rose 64 percent in 2007 to about $15.7 million, mainly due to option grants, according to a proxy filed on Friday.
The GM compensation committee cited significant progress over the past few years in reducing the automaker's health care cost burden, increasing growth internationally and improvements in its cars and trucks in the 2007 awards to executives.
Wagoner's compensation rose from about $9.57 million in 2006. The figure was arrived at based on Wagoner's salary, all other compensation and the basis of annual grants.
http://www.reuters.com/article/companyNews/idUSN2533674620080425
That is a lot more than the top UAW guy made. Unless he got a lot of cash under the table.
A.7 GM Executive Compensation
Total Compensation in the Bottom Quartile Compared to the Benchmark Companies
o No bonuses 2005, 2008
o Below target bonuses 2004, 2006, 2007
o No long term incentive pay out 2004 through 2008
o All stock options 1999-2008 underwater
o Value of restricted stock units fell with GM‘s stock price
In addition, CEO/Chairman, COO/President and Vice Chairman
o Salaries reduced as much as 50% from 2006 to 2007
o CEO has or will forfeit 330,000 options in 2008 and 2009
Other
o Supplemental Executive Retirement Plan (SERP) frozen and adopted lower accrual rate consistent with the tax-qualified plan on December 31, 2006
o 401k matching contribution eliminated in 2008
o Post-65 healthcare benefits eliminated for all salaried employees, including executives
As a result of these pay practices, as indicated in the table below, the actual compensation received compared to the Proxy reported compensation shows that the CEO and COO have actually earned far less than what is publicly reported.
2007
Actual Compensation Received
G.R. Wagoner, Jr.
$1.8 M
F.A. Henderson
$1.9 M
Even if his total package was $1.8 million. He has done a lousy job for 14 years. Why should my tax dollars be spent to carry on his style of poor management?
Another figure for his package. it is the $38.7 billion loss that tells a story.
The Securities and Exchange Commission filings reported earlier this year that gave Mr. Wagoner, the company's chairman and chief executive, a 33% raise for 2008 and equity compensation of at least $1.68 million for his performance in 2007, a year for which the auto maker reported a loss of $38.7 billion. The salary increase puts Mr. Wagoner's salary for this year at $2.2 million, compared with $1.65 million in 2007.
The reported income in the annual report includes stock options. They are worthless. How many times have I repeated this here in the last 6 months? If you really feel that GM would lie about their CEO's income right in front of all those congressman and on worldwide TV I see why you have an issue with GM.
My major issue is giving GM more money to waste. They have not made a decent profit when all the other automakers were doing great. That says to me they will NEVER make a decent profit and should not be given more money to waste.
Save the money for the lives they will ruin when they go belly up. GM going broke is no fault of the tax payers or the government. It lies right on the shoulders of management. Of course I believe the UAW played a part. But mostly poor decisions on the part of management.
With 10 million out of work, what's a couple hundred thousand more. Obama will put them to work rebuilding highways and bridges. Which is a good thing.
With 10 million out of work, what's a couple hundred thousand more. Obama will put them to work rebuilding highways and bridges. Which is a good thing.
I disagree, right after the dot com bust the govt (FED) began the lowering of interest rates, which created the housing bubble/bust. Rather than endure a mild recession, we began the lowering of rates, which prior were being raised in order to starve off inflation. This along with tax breaks to stimulate economic activity are a direct result of a president running for a second term and not sound fiscal or monetary policy. Now we have both high prices (inflation) and contraction in the private sector (unemployment). Its far better for the private sector to employ people than the govt via public works. Private sector jobs have a much greater multiplier effect on the economy and produce taxes, which is the govt's income. Govt spending on public works will sooner or later have to be repaid and should be the last resort when all else fails. So its just a choice of spending tax money (which may be repaid) on a bail out and has a good chance of generating taxes, much like the banking system, or spending tax money on public works which are unlikely to generate any taxes.
We can't begin to count the times that building an arena/stadium (welfare for the rich) have been pushed for because they bring in taxes and jobs. The same applies here. UAW jobs bring in a better tax base into the economy if only because they pay better than non union jobs.
http://media.gm.com/me/chevrolet/en/news/press/pr_recent/index.html
Do you live around Troy, MI. pal ??? I will be headed their next week for some Saturn Training. My boss said their is a chance I might get to shake hands with either Wagoner, LaNeve, or Henderson, while I'm their since our owner is tight with that crowd. That would be pretty cool to meet a man (Wagoner) who was one of my childhood hero's as shocking as that might sound to some due to my very pro-union ties. I've read and followed Mr. Wagoner's rise to power ever since I was a child. What surprises me the most is how ignorant many people are regarding the bailout. I've have dealt with so many so uneducated people on the subject matter and have bit my lip so many times that they are like Hubba Bubba !!! :P 62' don't be a stranger and not say hello if you get a chance pal !!!
-Rocky
P.S. I'm very well liked by my coworkers and it's a great fit for me guys !!! I love the dealership I work for and have already been established as the go to guy and am nick named Mr. Edmunds !!!
I agree. Obama in his stimulus plan has asked for $136 billion to be distributed to the states for upgrading the infrastructure and bridges. In addition he has proposed $40 billion to give health care to the poor.
One of their top priorities is funding for an estimated $136 billion in infrastructure projects - mostly roads, bridges and sewers - that states have indicated are "ready to go" or are no more than a few months from being started.
"States can move quickly to put this money on the ground," Hackney said. "The infrastructure projects are important because it's such a win-win."
A billion dollars in infrastructure investment translates into roughly 40,000 new jobs, economists say.
See there $2 billion will cover all those UAW guys that lose their jobs when GM goes broke. That is a lot cheaper than $18 b with no real plan to ever become solvent.
I sat in a new arena with a retractable roof two weekends back and marveled at the $780 initial price tag which I assume ended up on $1,000,000,000 and more for a football team to play in in Indy. The city gives tax incentives to encourage businesses to open in a tourist strip.
Does that arena make many jobs? 11 football games at home during the year for the Colts. The jobs are primarily minimum wage and the food service jobs are contracted out to Home Plate (IIRC) and who knows what they pay their employees. The custodial staff is probably contracted. Who knows what and how much they are paid.
The difference here is a problem with perception of how much a fraction of the employees are paid and their benefits.
Call your congressperson's office to tell them to keep jobs in the auto industry. As for the plan required, tell them they didn't require plans for AIG, the banks, brokers, etc., but we'll accept help with planning for the auto industry.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
- GM's new line-up with be Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, GMC, Saturn. Hummer will be sold as will Saab, which might die like Oldsmobile if their is no buyers. I've very sad to learn this news because I would consolidate Pontiac, Saturn, Saab, under one brand name and keep only 4 or 5 models. If I were CEO, my plan would be to close Pontiac, Sell Hummer, and keep Saab, and add the Aura, Astra, Vue, to the Saab brand but keep the Saturn customer service philosophy !!!
Regardless the media has spread so many lies it's not even funny. It was nice hearing the truth from the horses mouth (Wagoner) on what was really going to happen !!!
"The Rock"