VW is building a plant here to sell gas-powered Passats, to whit a new Passat NOT shared with the European market, and "dumbed down" for American tastes and to reach a cheaper price point. Has nothing to do with TDI production.
1/3 or 1/2 or 60% of not much is still not much. I guess in order to gauge how well diesels could REALLY sell here, we need one of the Big 6 (of which VW isn't one) to introduce a diesel on one of their volume models.
I got a survey after I bought my last Subaru asking me if I would be willing to pay $3000 extra for a diesel in a future Sube. I said yes, I would, but I also said I would be willing to spend $2500 more for a hybrid version, and lastly when asked to comment I said I would not buy another new Subaru unless it got at least 20% better fuel economy than the one I just bought (averaging 30 mpg so far, AWD and all). Diesel will probably be the easiest way for them to go, but either diesel or hybrid will save me my 20% in fuel.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I am sure the new factory will be flexible in that it can build most any vehicle VW chooses. They may change their plans if they cannot get enough Jetta TDI volume from Mexico. The only VW that would make me jump for joy is the Tiguan TDI with the same diesel engine as the new Golf GTD. It is the only mini CUV I found to be comfortable for me. And it gets 43 MPG US out on the highway. What's not to like? That is the 4Motion version.
If VW does not bring the Golf or Tiguan TDI, I may use the clunker plan and get a Touareg TDI for my diesel rig. I am not thrilled with the urea crap, but life is far from perfect. The restrictions on buying an SUV under the plan are pretty lenient.
The new SUV or pickup truck: Must cost $45,000 or less (MSR), must obtain 2 mpg better than the old for $3500, and 5 mpg for $4500.
Sadly, though, that engine was installed in cars that have the reliability of the average Daewoo or older Kia. Some folks are okay with that; I'm not one of them.
so I thought I would post this tidbit from Automotive News today:
Automakers scrap diesel plans
Mainstream carmakers have put the brakes on nine diesel-powered vehicles that had been scheduled for 2010.
Honda, Chrysler, Ford, General Motors, Nissan and Toyota have halted diesel programs because of spiraling costs and other problems.
Financial problems halted the programs at some companies. Others, like Toyota Motor Corp., are looking elsewhere for fuel economy. "We are banking heavily on hybrids," said Toyota spokesman Curt McAllister.
.....A diesel engine typically delivers fuel economy 20 to 30 percent better than that of a gasoline engine. But a diesel can add between $3,000 and $8,000 to a vehicle's price. Costly components include the turbocharger, the high-pressure fuel injection system and the complex emissions system, which is filled with precious metals. That cost seems to be a barrier for the mass-market brands.
......The image of the diesel engine may be one reason Toyota has halted its plans. Says McAllister: "One of the obstacles of the diesel is the aged perception that the diesel is smoky and stinky. It's hard to change the mind-set of consumers. Hybrid technology has such a clean halo to it."
And just to mollify gagrice a bit (!!):
Kevin McMahon, a partner at the Martec Group, a consulting firm, says the way the EPA calculates fuel economy and carbon dioxide standards gives gasoline-electric hybrids an unfair advantage over diesels.
One thing is for sure, if only the Europeans are taking on diesels for the foreseeable future, they will remain a tiny percentage of overall automotobile sales in the U.S.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
This is not surprising to me. Truth is I would not be much interested in Diesels from any of those companies anyway. With the possible exceptions of a Tacoma 4 cylinder diesel or a Honda Pilot with 4 cylinder diesel. It also further bolsters my claim that there is an underlying force in the government that does not want diesel to take off like it did in the EU. It would cause an imbalance in the oil industry just as it has in Europe. Until an alternative like GTL or biodiesel from algae becomes plentiful the balance is probably best left as it is in the USA. It will give the Germans an extra boost and further erode what is left of the D3. I see little chance of any decent hybrid PU trucks. Who in their right mind would pay $50k for a PU truck that cannot pull its way out of a wet paper bag? For half the price of a GM hybrid PU truck you can get a Tacoma V6 that gets the same MPG on the highway and has a higher tow rating.
Until the Feds get serious about using less fossil fuel and GHG, we will continue on this path of high consumption.
"Until the Feds get serious about using less fossil fuel and GHG, we will continue on this path of high consumption. " Im sorry..... why do "Feds" have to make that decesion? I want more Diesel choices NOW! We can have the non-polluting nuclear-powered cars when the technlology catches up.
I love my 56+ MPG and dont see Subaru on the above list. Lets hope the flat-four Diesel is still on its way here. Imagine a diesel engine with perfect primary balance....ssssmmmmoooottttthhhh as silk.
Personally, I am tired of people thinking that the "Feds" should 'do' anything more than build roads and finanace the military. History tells us that no government on earth is as efficent as the free-market. The last thing we need is the "feds" sticking their noses in and telling us what kind of cars to drive. Let the prices of fuel and everything else do what they willl and the Diesel engines will be here shortly.
I want more diesel choices now also. I wanted more diesel choices 20 years ago. The Federal government and states like CA have put roadblocks in the way of small efficient diesel vehicles. Especially diesel PU trucks. The 25% tariff on foreign built PU trucks from the 1960s. The moving target on emissions. Always just ahead of the EU where the major developments are made. My take is our government is controlled by big money that are not interested in our conserving of fossil fuel. So the regulators keep the choices out or very limited. That is the major problem in this country. The FEDS STICKING THEIR BIG FAT NOSES INTO EVERY ASPECT OF OUR LIVES.
PS Don't hold your breath on the Subaru passing the stiffer emissions.
Well I haven't seen the figures or incentives (tax credits, amnesty, deductions, infrastructure loans, etc), but I am almost positive Federal, State County, Local governments seemingly are all supportive of VW locating a (midsize) car plant in TN.
With almost everybody else either freezing or cancelling diesel plans, it would appear that VW is poised to take whatever market share it sets its mind to, but more importantly can sell. They have already trail blazed a diesel 30% production rate, starting off with a 25% target. This during arguably during the WORST economic down turn since the Great Depression. They have set a 40% diesel production rate for 2010.
The additional advantage would seem to be no diesel competition on the horizon; or @ least in the short term, 5 years !!?? They have diesels in: cross over suv, compact, with a midsize built in the US in 2010.
Being the #3 auto oem in the world, with over half of its sales in diesel already, this would not appear to be a "new line of risk and investment" for them. This might not necessarily be true for other oems.
You'll note, though, that Mini is full-steam ahead on a TDI version of the Mini. Mostly because they *know* that people will gobble up every last one and pay a nice premium doing so.
It may just be the salvation that we're looking for, since it's a hot little car with loads of marketing power and "cool" factor. Add 45mpg+ to the current equation and it's sure to make some waves.
BMW, Mercedes, and Audi/VW are already small and have enough money to spend on Diesels(plus market premium cars already). So Diesels for them are an easy choice - and they are selling every one they can ship over here it seems(and doubly so if oil hits 200-300 a barrel in the next year or two as some suggest it might...
Actually you should have posted links to Mini Cooper diesels !! I didn't post it because of oems who've announced imminent diesel plans and... postponed or cancelled. So here is some "old" newslink title
So currently besides VW, BMW, MB, have passenger diesels on the 2009 MY market. 2010 Audi A3 (I think) has just hit the markets (June 09)
Mini/BMW is slated for 2011, and given the likely $4+ a gallon gas in a year(already $3+ a gallon here and that's due purely to the depreciation of the dollar - not any massive change in oil), I can easily see Toyota and the others that decided to wait being beat to the market by the European companies.
Note - Some of this is that the other German makers are wondering why if VW (basically seen my them as equivalent to Chrysler/the worst of the "German 3") can sell TDIs here, why aren't they also getting in on the game? Whether or not that's true is a whole other discussion, but it's nice to see a bit of ego and not wanting to be outdone influencing BMW and Mercedes for once.
Domestics and Japan? Too slow and conservative. Shame, really, since the first under $15K hot hatch that gets 50mpg+ and isn't a Geo Metro type stripped tin can will completely take over. Same with the first small TDI truck.
edit - watch the Fiat 500, btw - small, aggressive, and little to lose. They might jump on this, especially since Chrysler also isn't adverse to small diesels.
BMW and MB are actually competitors with their diesel offerings (2009). While I think I understand why, still from a volume and percentage point of view, VW is the "practical" only game in town.
From the Edmunds.com perspective, there are 24 (actual) vehicles on the (2009) market.link title
Most (59%) are really NOT in the passenger vehicle fleet, even as they are "IN" the passenger vehicle fleet.
I don't want the Fed's decising anything else for me as they've demonstrated repeatedly an astounding ability to spend more doing less than any individual or private entity. I do believe however that without a consistent policy on energy and fuel, there's little incentive for manufacturer's to spend the money needed to federalize the astoundingly good diesel products they already offer in Europe. European manufacturers get the press, but Japanese and Domestic companies all have great 4 & 6 cylinder diesel's that could make an immediate impact in the US in Accord, Focus and Taurus sized cars as well as the light trucks and SUV's the US market still demands, although in lesser numbers. I'd trade our Navigator tomorrow for an Expedition that seats 6, carries the dogs and luggage and can tow a 7500 lb boat while still getting 20 mpg. Since an F-350 with the PowerStroke diesel can get 17-19 unloaded, it's not unlikely that a lighter vehicle with a V-6 turbo diesel could do the same or better. The key for manufacturer's would be to bring these products in at no more than $1500-$2000 more than their gas powered equivalent so a financial case could be made for their existence. If the diesel (or Hybrid) is going to cost $6-8k more, as they do today, the typical consumer will opt for the cheaper alternative. Not sure if that can be done or not, but in Europe the diesel does not command anywhere near the price premium it does in the US.
I have to wonder what is going on with the MB diesel lineup right now. DOT/EPA holdups? The new E-class isn't listed in any diesel variant from the 2010 promo material I have seen. I went to the local 2010 E-class party last week, and asked a salesman about the E350 "blue efficiency"...he looked at me like I was speaking in tongues, and referred me to some used bluetecs. These cars have been out for several months in Europe already. We still don't have a diesel C-class on this continent, and the hybrid diesel S400 became a hybrid gas S400, with no diesel S-class variant on the horizon for this continent. The diesels for MB are just a couple useless SUVs for 2010, as far as I know - not a good decision IMO.
You're right about the smaller price gap of petrol vs disel cars here in Europe.
Example is the VW Passat in "Highline" trim. The 1.8 TSI 160 bhp gasser has a sticker price of £18,752 whilst the 2.0 TDi 170 bhp diesel is ££20,019 - a delta of £1267, (circa $2090). However at point of sale that difference will more likely be just £1078, (circa $1778). These being UK figures, of course. As petrol and diesel are currently about the same price, (£1.03 per Litre locally), choosing a diesel in not a hard decision for anyone doing reasonable annual mileage; not to mention the better characteristics of the oil burner.
Similar situation exists with other makes. Honda Accord diesel is some $2600 dearer than the petrol equivalent, the Ford Focus differential is some $1800 and the BMW 3 Series diesel is circa $1200 dearer than the petrol - when looking at comparable outputs/trim levels.
The figures I'm using are consumer "target" prices published in various magazines and a $/£ ExRate of 1.65.
And yes - our car prices are eye-watering compared to yours......I think. :mad:
I ran into a couple from Canada with a B200 CDI similar to this one. They were traveling around the USA getting 50 MPG on diesel. They loved the car. What's not to like? German safety and handling with Prius mileage.
That must have been some kind of private import - Canada gets the B-class, but not in diesel form - only in na and turbo gas models, the latter of which must be preferable.
The B-class looks like a decent little car, and I see plenty of them in Vancouver - pretty pricey though.
Yes, The Merc B Class is a nice car - but pricey compared to the opposition, (the 3-pointed star commands a premium). More Merc A Class cars here in UK but same choice of diesels.
..."The diesels for MB are just a couple useless SUVs for 2010, as far as I know - not a good decision IMO. "...
On the face of it, I would disagree. However I took a ride with a very good friend in her MB ML320. (gasser) I just very casually mentioned the latest models were available in diesel link title. I did get an ear full about the quality of MB suv's. It was very apparent it did NOT wear well with her. She has been an MB owner for most of her professional life.
Indian diesel pickup to go on sale in U.S. later this year
It's practical; the only diesel in its class; will probably be rated at 30 miles per gallon; and perfect for fording the Ganges.
The first Indian vehicle in the U.S. is due to show up at 339 dealers around the U.S. this year. Made by Mahindra Group, the pickup is yet to get a name for the U.S. market. Described as being midsize, but really probably more of a compact, the pickup will probably sell in the low-$20,000 range and come in several different versions:
The Mahindra will come in a two-door and four-door configuration, not to mention two-wheel- and four-wheel-drive versions. Its 2.2-liter, four-cylinder diesel will be paired with a standard six-speed transmission. The pickup will have electrronic stability control, a 1.3-ton payload capacity, air conditioning (Calcutta sizzles this time of year!) and should be great for towing. To try to allay the fears of doubters, the Mahindra will come with a four-year, 60,000-mile bumper-to-bumper warranty.
Its really hard to figure that no American truck will be sold with a diesel in this country in that size vehicle not to mention Toyota, Honda or Nissan ... GEEEEZE what are they thinking.
I would agree !! This is a REAL riddle, in light of the new 2016- 35.5 mpg standards, which was overwhelmingly passed by the democrats and I am sure a fair number of republicans.
I would think the real unseen answer is in the secret deals made with the big four: UAW, GM, Ford, Chrysler. Unless of course the real goal is just to get a lot of folks to just pay quantitatively more for fuel (per mile driven) This of course does nothing for the "earnest goal" of actually using less... fuel.
With the current standards @ 27 mpg and the so called "better mpg full sized trucks" getting 21 mpg (more like 19), that puts the defacto 2016 standards up @ 27.69... call it 28 mpg !! No way a currently configured Ford F150 can get 28 mpg without a turbo diesel. I have read in passing that this "truck segment" combined with the 12% suv population is app 40-50% of the passenger vehicle fleet.
Not to mention Ford, Chevy and Dodge. They will spend billions to develop the Volt that will never make them a nickel and leave out a big segment of the market. Small diesel PUs are the standard in every part of the World except the USA.
They have applied for a waiver. It does not compete with any vehicle made in the USA. And it will be able to meet the CAFE which no other PU will be able to do. I think they may get it. Otherwise it is 25% added on top. Or they could do as Toyota did way back. Ship the truck over and add the bed over here. Not sure the whole story on that.
Sadly the base Ranger is not even worth $16k. It will probably be priced with the Tacoma. I would expect it to out work the Tacoma. Especially the 4 cylinder model. I signed up for the test drive. Not sure who will sell them here. Plenty of dealerships looking for a decent line of vehicles. Be nice to use my 99 Ranger as a C4C trade.
That's a BEAUTY! I would love to see that sold over here!! This is the first time I've seen that model. I still am saddened that diesels don't seem to get a foothold in market share here. Fuel is still relatively cheap and the American diesels that are in trucks are noisy and rough. They still sound like the Mercedes diesels of the 80's. The VW and BMW diesels are wonderful examples of the type of diesels that need to be rolling down our interstates.
Very functional with all the amenities needed. Plus 30 MPG combined should be a winner...With standard sized truck tires that don't cost a fortune to replace. Made for people that use their trucks for working.
Maybe this will drag the Japanese and the Americans (kicking and screaming) into producing diesel-powered trucks for sale. It is ridiculous that they haven't done so long before now.
Word is that Toyota will bring its hybrid powertrain from the Camry (or maybe the one from the Highlander) to America for the Sienna next year, so they have decided against diesel there. The question is, will they ever have a better-than-15-mpg powertrain for Tundra? Or better than 20 mpg for Tacoma?
If Honda put a 30 mpg diesel in the Ridgeline and it was the only diesel-powered pickup available except the Mahindra pictured here, which would you buy?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So if I read what you are saying correctly, a consequence is the reality does not change. What does change is say a Chevrolet truck that gets 21 combine EPA under the current 2008 EPA will get 25 mpg combined on the old one. So if the big four add one exemption then... viola !! ... 27/28 mpg is totally in the bag !!! From that point of view it beats a REAL 27/28 mpg any day. :lemon: :shades:
I predict whom ever brings a (diesel) truck, like the yet unnamed Mahindra which meets the parameters of folks that literally depend on their trucks, construction trades come to mind, will reignite that market segment. I truly think that is what the control a crats are afraid of after years of advocating jamming everyone into Civic's/Corollas, and over paying for Prius'es.
Yet on the other hand, if indeed Civic's/Corolla's fulfill ones needs, they make it economically (in the US markets' case, AND PHYSICALLY) impossible to go from say 38-42 mpg (which I understand is GREAT) to 56 to 60 mpg with one simple option:... turbo DIESEL.
Well sort of. The average for CAFE was improved so the automakers will have to improve the mileage of their cars somewhat but not as much as people think by looking at the Current EPA test.
Trying to find the actual old style EPA numbers for current cars is a PITA. Andre sent me a link to a website that had the numbers in a raw form that could be opened in notepad or converted to excel but I don't remember what site that was off the top of my head. Those numbers are the numbers the IRS used to figure out those tax credits for high mileage clean diesel and hybrid vehicles.
I just found it funny all of the various pundits and/or industry people who said that these new mileage targets would be tough to meet. I found it even funnier when people on the extremist side started to freak out and call this the end of cars as we know it cause no car that exists today will hit those targets. Those insider people were either stupid or just being dishonest cause the new targets are only a small improvement over the old CAFE targets.
The average person doesn't know that though. They just the current EPA numbers and the huge difference between them and the new CAFE targets. Dependign on where you fall in the spectrum the reaction goes from
OMG the end of the car is here the envirowackos have won NOOOOOOOOOOO :sick: :mad:
To yeah we will finally get cars with good mielage and kill off most of those big gaz guzzlers that can't ever hit this target. :shades:
The reality is that the change while significant is pretty minor.
..."The reality is that the change while significant is pretty minor. "...
I do not think it a stretch then, that we both agree !!??
Even if we don't, the big four will just get an exemption and say 27/28 mpg in accordance with the Oui Gi board math (or whatever is the litmus test du jour)
To wit, the recent change to the 35 year old +plus EPA mph tests which blatantly favor Prius Hybrids. As most of us know, the Prius FAILED to even come close to the OEM's posted EPA claims of 60 city/50 highway !!!
When you combine this with the fact that NONE of the big four has announced the vehicles that will take the new "PROFIT" work horse roles of the SUV's & pick up trucks of the "old order," SOS/DD is pre ordained !!!
It wasn't a change the CAFE was always based on the old, old EPA tests. All hybrids were desigend to take advantage of the old pre 2008 EPA test. They were designed to excel on the test but perhaps not real world driving.
The new EPA test punishes diesels by about 18 percent. If you spend enough time searching through the various PDFs on fueleconomy.gov you can eventually find that the EPA admits that diesels are at least knocked down an average 18% overall.
The new EPA test is very stupid. I could beat the pre-2008 EPA numbers by 10-15% on every car I ever drove so I slaughter the current EPA numbers.
yes, that is why I wanted a small diesel PU 11 years ago when no one was thinking about diesel vehicles. It will leave a glut of gas so it would be best to own one of each.
Indeed if you look at the Prius 60 C/50 H mpg, the theoretical combined would be 55 mpg . The combined as most folks have reported is 43/45 mpg. So that is app 18% (55-45=10/55=)
They would love everyone to believe it is a technological miracle, when really it is the old three cup, where is the PEA trick.
So what might possibly happen 1. the old standard for the other than hybrid cars 2.the new standard for hybrid cars. 3. light trucks have been on their own standards for decades anyway. All that seems to matter is the APPEARANCE of high/highest EPA rating!!?? (this of course as already been demonstrated) :lemon:
All they need do is to say this is vital to the economic security of the USA (ah ...gee..., the USA owns 63% of these entities??????? And the UAW is a LARGE minority stake holder???? AND can you spell exemption !!!!!???
And really diesels have never been a serious part of the public discussion, other than the wig bigs vilifiying it!!!
So for example, 50% of my cars EXCEED the 2016 35.5 mpg . Two will have for 13 years. Another for 7 years. Another exceeds the defacto 2016 standards and its a SPORTS car. The two that don't should be ready for smog exemption by that date.
Going through some of these e-mails, I'm still sickened by the inability of the majors making a decent-sized car with acceptable mileage. Then again, from my experience, the big-3 (2?) don't give a flying rip. I still can't get over Vauxhall/Opel (GM umbrella) denying me the ability to bring-back my Vectra. '52 plate. Elegance trim. 2.2-ltr Tdi, like the VW above. Bigger than my Accord I had before moving across the pond, yet, better gas mileage when tracked against the US standards instead of UK. Avg. 27-mpg city, 42-hwy. Couple times, hit 48-mpg but that was more cross-country driving. Fully loaded-down with suitcases and my family (4 of us). And GM exporting has the balls to ensure I don't bring it back here. Oh well. I've fallen-back into the wasteful ways here. Who knows? Maybe the other 2 will fall (hoping) and a major shake-up/reorg occurs that will force the mfgs. to build world-competitive consumer vehicles without the gouging just to cover some worker too lazy to perform a decent days labor.
Oh well. I've fallen-back into the wasteful ways here.
Welcome to the forum...
You have said it all with that statement. If the automakers won't give US what is available World Wide. Why should I give a hoot about wasting gas? Then all the Climate Clowns wringing their hands and trying to make US feel guilty because we own an SUV that gets 14 MPG. When the same SUV is available outside the USA that will get 30+ MPG. The problem falls right on the shoulders of our worthless government. They make the rules just tough enough to keep diesels on the fringe. They are owned by the enviro nuts and oil companies that both detest diesel for different reasons. If we would just establish the same emissions rules the EU uses it would go a long ways to cutting our use of fossil fuel. The truth is, most of government are more interested in getting the taxes from gas guzzlers than they are in using less fuel. Why do you think this latest debacle will make it easy to trade a gas guzzler for another gas guzzler than for a high mileage vehicle?
The Toyota Land Cruiser is only sold with diesel engines in the UK. Depending which engine they get over 30 US MPG highway. The combined is over 25 US MPG. The VW Tiguan with the 2.0L TDI that I would like to see in the US gets 44+ US MPG on the highway and 38 US MPG combined. The gas version sold here is rated 20 MPG combined. I will not downsize for a lousy 5 MPG gain. My comfort is worth more than that.
I think there are truly lots of boundaries, a lot being economic. To me the TLC turbo diesel should be a 30 year service vehicle (or I should say that is the path my 15 year old TLC's are on) as the cost of entry, can be very high. So with the average drivers yearly mileage (12,000 to 15,000) we are looking at 450,000 miles. In effect that is a LOT of month's without vehicle payments !! (300 months, given a 5 year pay off period) If one buys a car every 5 years that is 6 less tax payments. Around here that is up to 9.75%
"GM product-development higher-ups are adamant that diesels are too costly for the U.S. market. They require complex and expensive exhaust aftertreatment to comply with the world's toughest diesel-emissions standards ("onboard chemical factories is one term repeatedly employed) - and U.S. diesel fuel is not taxed as advantageously as it is in Europe, where diesels have captured more than half of the region's light-vehicle market."
I would NOT doubt that would be true for GM or Ford. Chysler has hooked up with the lower price oem FIAT and it SEEMS very likely lower priced diesels may be made for the US market as part of the (secret) deal.(my swag ONLY)
Now if GM can price a VOLT @ 12-15k,... run a way hit in the making !!!! BUT WAIT....
However given our green state's electrical rate (one of 88 rate tables and schedules and exceptions etc. etc, of app 44 cents per KWH, the cost per mile driven I have figured on another thread to be .1726 cents vs .057 cents per mile driven D2. So Volt is easily 3x more per mile driven than D2.
Comments
VW is building a plant here to sell gas-powered Passats, to whit a new Passat NOT shared with the European market, and "dumbed down" for American tastes and to reach a cheaper price point. Has nothing to do with TDI production.
1/3 or 1/2 or 60% of not much is still not much. I guess in order to gauge how well diesels could REALLY sell here, we need one of the Big 6 (of which VW isn't one) to introduce a diesel on one of their volume models.
I got a survey after I bought my last Subaru asking me if I would be willing to pay $3000 extra for a diesel in a future Sube. I said yes, I would, but I also said I would be willing to spend $2500 more for a hybrid version, and lastly when asked to comment I said I would not buy another new Subaru unless it got at least 20% better fuel economy than the one I just bought (averaging 30 mpg so far, AWD and all). Diesel will probably be the easiest way for them to go, but either diesel or hybrid will save me my 20% in fuel.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If VW does not bring the Golf or Tiguan TDI, I may use the clunker plan and get a Touareg TDI for my diesel rig. I am not thrilled with the urea crap, but life is far from perfect. The restrictions on buying an SUV under the plan are pretty lenient.
The new SUV or pickup truck: Must cost $45,000 or less (MSR), must obtain 2 mpg better than the old for $3500, and 5 mpg for $4500.
Sadly, though, that engine was installed in cars that have the reliability of the average Daewoo or older Kia. Some folks are okay with that; I'm not one of them.
Automakers scrap diesel plans
Mainstream carmakers have put the brakes on nine diesel-powered vehicles that had been scheduled for 2010.
Honda, Chrysler, Ford, General Motors, Nissan and Toyota have halted diesel programs because of spiraling costs and other problems.
Financial problems halted the programs at some companies. Others, like Toyota Motor Corp., are looking elsewhere for fuel economy. "We are banking heavily on hybrids," said Toyota spokesman Curt McAllister.
.....A diesel engine typically delivers fuel economy 20 to 30 percent better than that of a gasoline engine. But a diesel can add between $3,000 and $8,000 to a vehicle's price. Costly components include the turbocharger, the high-pressure fuel injection system and the complex emissions system, which is filled with precious metals. That cost seems to be a barrier for the mass-market brands.
......The image of the diesel engine may be one reason Toyota has halted its plans. Says McAllister: "One of the obstacles of the diesel is the aged perception that the diesel is smoky and stinky. It's hard to change the mind-set of consumers. Hybrid technology has such a clean halo to it."
And just to mollify gagrice a bit (!!):
Kevin McMahon, a partner at the Martec Group, a consulting firm, says the way the EPA calculates fuel economy and carbon dioxide standards gives gasoline-electric hybrids an unfair advantage over diesels.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20090629/ANA06/306299972/1178
(registration link)
One thing is for sure, if only the Europeans are taking on diesels for the foreseeable future, they will remain a tiny percentage of overall automotobile sales in the U.S.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Until the Feds get serious about using less fossil fuel and GHG, we will continue on this path of high consumption.
I love my 56+ MPG and dont see Subaru on the above list. Lets hope the flat-four Diesel is still on its way here. Imagine a diesel engine with perfect primary balance....ssssmmmmoooottttthhhh as silk.
Personally, I am tired of people thinking that the "Feds" should 'do' anything more than build roads and finanace the military. History tells us that no government on earth is as efficent as the free-market. The last thing we need is the "feds" sticking their noses in and telling us what kind of cars to drive. Let the prices of fuel and everything else do what they willl and the Diesel engines will be here shortly.
PS
Don't hold your breath on the Subaru passing the stiffer emissions.
With almost everybody else either freezing or cancelling diesel plans, it would appear that VW is poised to take whatever market share it sets its mind to, but more importantly can sell. They have already trail blazed a diesel 30% production rate, starting off with a 25% target. This during arguably during the WORST economic down turn since the Great Depression. They have set a 40% diesel production rate for 2010.
The additional advantage would seem to be no diesel competition on the horizon; or @ least in the short term, 5 years !!?? They have diesels in: cross over suv, compact, with a midsize built in the US in 2010.
Being the #3 auto oem in the world, with over half of its sales in diesel already, this would not appear to be a "new line of risk and investment" for them. This might not necessarily be true for other oems.
It may just be the salvation that we're looking for, since it's a hot little car with loads of marketing power and "cool" factor. Add 45mpg+ to the current equation and it's sure to make some waves.
BMW, Mercedes, and Audi/VW are already small and have enough money to spend on Diesels(plus market premium cars already). So Diesels for them are an easy choice - and they are selling every one they can ship over here it seems(and doubly so if oil hits 200-300 a barrel in the next year or two as some suggest it might...
So currently besides VW, BMW, MB, have passenger diesels on the 2009 MY market. 2010 Audi A3 (I think) has just hit the markets (June 09)
Mini/BMW is slated for 2011, and given the likely $4+ a gallon gas in a year(already $3+ a gallon here and that's due purely to the depreciation of the dollar - not any massive change in oil), I can easily see Toyota and the others that decided to wait being beat to the market by the European companies.
Note - Some of this is that the other German makers are wondering why if VW (basically seen my them as equivalent to Chrysler/the worst of the "German 3") can sell TDIs here, why aren't they also getting in on the game? Whether or not that's true is a whole other discussion, but it's nice to see a bit of ego and not wanting to be outdone influencing BMW and Mercedes for once.
Domestics and Japan? Too slow and conservative. Shame, really, since the first under $15K hot hatch that gets 50mpg+ and isn't a Geo Metro type stripped tin can will completely take over. Same with the first small TDI truck.
edit - watch the Fiat 500, btw - small, aggressive, and little to lose. They might jump on this, especially since Chrysler also isn't adverse to small diesels.
From the Edmunds.com perspective, there are 24 (actual) vehicles on the (2009) market.link title
Most (59%) are really NOT in the passenger vehicle fleet, even as they are "IN" the passenger vehicle fleet.
Example is the VW Passat in "Highline" trim. The 1.8 TSI 160 bhp gasser has a sticker price of £18,752 whilst the 2.0 TDi 170 bhp diesel is ££20,019 - a delta of £1267, (circa $2090). However at point of sale that difference will more likely be just £1078, (circa $1778). These being UK figures, of course. As petrol and diesel are currently about the same price, (£1.03 per Litre locally), choosing a diesel in not a hard decision for anyone doing reasonable annual mileage; not to mention the better characteristics of the oil burner.
Similar situation exists with other makes. Honda Accord diesel is some $2600 dearer than the petrol equivalent, the Ford Focus differential is some $1800 and the BMW 3 Series diesel is circa $1200 dearer than the petrol - when looking at comparable outputs/trim levels.
The figures I'm using are consumer "target" prices published in various magazines and a $/£ ExRate of 1.65.
And yes - our car prices are eye-watering compared to yours......I think. :mad:
The B-class looks like a decent little car, and I see plenty of them in Vancouver - pretty pricey though.
On the face of it, I would disagree. However I took a ride with a very good friend in her MB ML320. (gasser) I just very casually mentioned the latest models were available in diesel link title. I did get an ear full about the quality of MB suv's. It was very apparent it did NOT wear well with her. She has been an MB owner for most of her professional life.
I believe the later ones are a little better, and the diesel ones maybe even better.
It's practical; the only diesel in its class; will probably be rated at 30 miles per gallon; and perfect for fording the Ganges.
The first Indian vehicle in the U.S. is due to show up at 339 dealers around the U.S. this year. Made by Mahindra Group, the pickup is yet to get a name for the U.S. market. Described as being midsize, but really probably more of a compact, the pickup will probably sell in the low-$20,000 range and come in several different versions:
The Mahindra will come in a two-door and four-door configuration, not to mention two-wheel- and four-wheel-drive versions. Its 2.2-liter, four-cylinder diesel will be paired with a standard six-speed transmission. The pickup will have electrronic stability control, a 1.3-ton payload capacity, air conditioning (Calcutta sizzles this time of year!) and should be great for towing. To try to allay the fears of doubters, the Mahindra will come with a four-year, 60,000-mile bumper-to-bumper warranty.
An SUV could follow in a year.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2009/07/68494450/1
If none of the companies doing business currently in the USA want my cash. I will send it to India.
I would think the real unseen answer is in the secret deals made with the big four: UAW, GM, Ford, Chrysler. Unless of course the real goal is just to get a lot of folks to just pay quantitatively more for fuel (per mile driven) This of course does nothing for the "earnest goal" of actually using less... fuel.
With the current standards @ 27 mpg and the so called "better mpg full sized trucks" getting 21 mpg (more like 19), that puts the defacto 2016 standards up @ 27.69... call it 28 mpg !! No way a currently configured Ford F150 can get 28 mpg without a turbo diesel. I have read in passing that this "truck segment" combined with the 12% suv population is app 40-50% of the passenger vehicle fleet.
Under that test a truck that gets 21 on the current EPA test probably gets 25 or so on the old one.
Word is that Toyota will bring its hybrid powertrain from the Camry (or maybe the one from the Highlander) to America for the Sienna next year, so they have decided against diesel there. The question is, will they ever have a better-than-15-mpg powertrain for Tundra? Or better than 20 mpg for Tacoma?
If Honda put a 30 mpg diesel in the Ridgeline and it was the only diesel-powered pickup available except the Mahindra pictured here, which would you buy?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yet on the other hand, if indeed Civic's/Corolla's fulfill ones needs, they make it economically (in the US markets' case, AND PHYSICALLY) impossible to go from say 38-42 mpg (which I understand is GREAT) to 56 to 60 mpg with one simple option:... turbo DIESEL.
Trying to find the actual old style EPA numbers for current cars is a PITA. Andre sent me a link to a website that had the numbers in a raw form that could be opened in notepad or converted to excel but I don't remember what site that was off the top of my head. Those numbers are the numbers the IRS used to figure out those tax credits for high mileage clean diesel and hybrid vehicles.
I just found it funny all of the various pundits and/or industry people who said that these new mileage targets would be tough to meet. I found it even funnier when people on the extremist side started to freak out and call this the end of cars as we know it cause no car that exists today will hit those targets. Those insider people were either stupid or just being dishonest cause the new targets are only a small improvement over the old CAFE targets.
The average person doesn't know that though. They just the current EPA numbers and the huge difference between them and the new CAFE targets. Dependign on where you fall in the spectrum the reaction goes from
OMG the end of the car is here the envirowackos have won NOOOOOOOOOOO :sick: :mad:
To yeah we will finally get cars with good mielage and kill off most of those big gaz guzzlers that can't ever hit this target. :shades:
The reality is that the change while significant is pretty minor.
I do not think it a stretch then, that we both agree !!??
Even if we don't, the big four will just get an exemption and say 27/28 mpg in accordance with the Oui Gi board math (or whatever is the litmus test du jour)
To wit, the recent change to the 35 year old +plus EPA mph tests which blatantly favor Prius Hybrids. As most of us know, the Prius FAILED to even come close to the OEM's posted EPA claims of 60 city/50 highway !!!
When you combine this with the fact that NONE of the big four has announced the vehicles that will take the new "PROFIT" work horse roles of the SUV's & pick up trucks of the "old order," SOS/DD is pre ordained !!!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The new EPA test punishes diesels by about 18 percent. If you spend enough time searching through the various PDFs on fueleconomy.gov you can eventually find that the EPA admits that diesels are at least knocked down an average 18% overall.
The new EPA test is very stupid. I could beat the pre-2008 EPA numbers by 10-15% on every car I ever drove so I slaughter the current EPA numbers.
They would love everyone to believe it is a technological miracle, when really it is the old three cup, where is the PEA trick.
So what might possibly happen 1. the old standard for the other than hybrid cars 2.the new standard for hybrid cars. 3. light trucks have been on their own standards for decades anyway. All that seems to matter is the APPEARANCE of high/highest EPA rating!!?? (this of course as already been demonstrated) :lemon:
All they need do is to say this is vital to the economic security of the USA (ah ...gee..., the USA owns 63% of these entities??????? And the UAW is a LARGE minority stake holder???? AND can you spell exemption !!!!!???
And really diesels have never been a serious part of the public discussion, other than the wig bigs vilifiying it!!!
So for example, 50% of my cars EXCEED the 2016 35.5 mpg . Two will have for 13 years. Another for 7 years. Another exceeds the defacto 2016 standards and its a SPORTS car. The two that don't should be ready for smog exemption by that date.
I still can't get over Vauxhall/Opel (GM umbrella) denying me the ability to bring-back my Vectra. '52 plate. Elegance trim. 2.2-ltr Tdi, like the VW above. Bigger than my Accord I had before moving across the pond, yet, better gas mileage when tracked against the US standards instead of UK. Avg. 27-mpg city, 42-hwy. Couple times, hit 48-mpg but that was more cross-country driving. Fully loaded-down with suitcases and my family (4 of us). And GM exporting has the balls to ensure I don't bring it back here.
Oh well. I've fallen-back into the wasteful ways here. Who knows? Maybe the other 2 will fall (hoping) and a major shake-up/reorg occurs that will force the mfgs. to build world-competitive consumer vehicles without the gouging just to cover some worker too lazy to perform a decent days labor.
Welcome to the forum...
You have said it all with that statement. If the automakers won't give US what is available World Wide. Why should I give a hoot about wasting gas? Then all the Climate Clowns wringing their hands and trying to make US feel guilty because we own an SUV that gets 14 MPG. When the same SUV is available outside the USA that will get 30+ MPG. The problem falls right on the shoulders of our worthless government. They make the rules just tough enough to keep diesels on the fringe. They are owned by the enviro nuts and oil companies that both detest diesel for different reasons. If we would just establish the same emissions rules the EU uses it would go a long ways to cutting our use of fossil fuel. The truth is, most of government are more interested in getting the taxes from gas guzzlers than they are in using less fuel. Why do you think this latest debacle will make it easy to trade a gas guzzler for another gas guzzler than for a high mileage vehicle?
New Cadillac GM Pondering the Diesel Equation (AutoObserver)
However a VOLT can't even trump a Prius.
Volt vs. Prius: Which Will Be Cheaper to Drive?
Now if GM can price a VOLT @ 12-15k,... run a way hit in the making !!!!
However given our green state's electrical rate (one of 88 rate tables and schedules and exceptions etc. etc, of app 44 cents per KWH, the cost per mile driven I have figured on another thread to be .1726 cents vs .057 cents per mile driven D2. So Volt is easily 3x more per mile driven than D2.