The Current State of the US Auto Market

tlong · September 2013

I'd bet the odds of getting a bad trans in a Honda is fairly low. I've had several family members who've owned multiple Odyssey's, Pilot's and MDX's and none have had trans problems.

We've also had 3 Honda makes (one an Acura) and have never had a transmission problem.

While Honda's tranny problems were well publicized in the 2002-2003 or so time frame, the main reason that was noteworthy is that the brand had such a reputation for reliability in general. I've heard of so many tranny problems, seemingly mostly in Chryslers but quite a bit in GMs and Fords as well. I suspect Honda's tranny failure rate is quite a bit lower, overall.

Actually I've NEVER had a tranny failure in any car I've owned over 40 years of driving - that includes numerous cars in the 100-200K miles zone and one well over 200K miles. That includes Honda, Nissan, VW, Audi, and Mazda makes.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2013

I think many dealers just throw 80% if the TSBs in the trash anyway.

tlong · September 2013

I recently had a Jetta rental and here are some impressions.

I'm somebody who has always liked VW and prefers smaller more premium cars. As such, I found this Jetta quite disappointing.

The 2.5 SE has the higher line 5 cylinder engine as compared to the base 4 cylinder model. The car also had leather (or pleather) seats. In spite of those things, I found the car fairly roomy, but pretty devoid of character. The interior looks cheap and has no style. The engine was reasonably powerful but also pretty buzzy (almost as bad as the Cruze turbo 1.4 I rented a month or two ago). The steering was decent but not noteworthy.

In short, if you want bland, this is your car. Bland exterior, bland interior, nothing much to distinguish it. I might have liked a really nicer interior or nicer looking car and that would make me be willing to put up with lower reliablity and the VW dealer network, but if I were buying a car in this class today, I'd save my money and just buy a Honda or a Mazda or Hyundai instead.

stickguy · September 2013

a few months back my daughter and I looked at VWs to see the Jetta. Liked the exterior, but was woefully under impressed by the interior. Did not drive one, so can't comment about that.

they are also ditching the 2.5l finally for 2014 in favor of a turbo engine (the 1.8T). Even putting the IRS on all the models.

xrunner2 · September 2013

Have had many Honda and Acura vehicles over the years. Along with many other brands and never a problem with trans and driven to 70K, 80K and up to 195K. Had only one vehicle that we kept over 200K miles. A 1986 Honda Accord. The trans failed at 217K miles and had to be replaced. Did not think this was a big deal given that American brands, such as Dodge/Chrysler supposedly had transmission failures at much, much lower overall odo mileage. Like 50K, 60K and so forth.

dieselone · September 2013

"A 1986 Honda Accord. The trans failed at 217K miles and had to be replaced. Did not think this was a big deal given that American brands, such as Dodge/Chrysler supposedly had transmission failures at much, much lower overall odo mileage. Like 50K, 60K and so forth.
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Yeah, it wouldn't have been unheard of to go through 2-3 transmissions by 200k in a Chrysler minivan with the ultradrive transmission.

I think most makes have made bad transmissions at some point.

Andre can verify issues with GM's 4l60e trans. I burnt one up before 50k and I know people that have had 3 rebuilds by 150k miles on their GM 1/2 tons.

A few years back Edmunds had one fail by 30k miles or so in one of their long term Silverados.

dieselone · September 2013

I haven't sampled a current gen Jetta. From what I've read there is quite a difference between the lower models and the enthusiast GLI trim with the 2.0turbo. Even the rear suspension is different, and I believe the interior is nicer too.

fintail · September 2013

Don't complain about the actions of the executive cabal! Their lack of ethics and undefendable fortunes are a drop in the bucket compared to the overall economy, so we should just ignore their actions. We're all just temporarily embarrassed millionares anyway. It's trickling down.

stickguy · September 2013

The GLI really is a different car. Suspension (rear IRS), engine, interior fittings, etc.

though for 2014 the SE will have a real engine and IRS, and "other upgrades". Will be interesting to see what they do with it.

circlew · September 2013

Largest U.S. vehicle recalls
Rank # of vehicles Model year Model Problem
1 21 million 1970-1980 Ford cars & trucks Transmissions that fail to engage Park
2 15 million 1992-2003 Ford cars & trucks Cruise control deactivation switch fires
3 7.9 million 1988-1993 Ford Taurus, Explorer, Probe & Mercury Sable Ignition switch fires
4 6.9 million 1965-1970 Chevrolet cars & trucks Unintended acceleration due to broken motor mounts
5 5.8 million 1978-1981 General Motors A-body cars Lower control arm bolt failures can lead to suspension collapse
6 5.4 million 2004-2010 Toyota, Lexus Unintended acceleration risk due to floor mat interference
7 4.1 million 1970-1971 All Fords, Lincolns, and Mercurys Shoulder belt pins
8 3.7 million 1971-1972 All full-size Buicks, Chevrolets, Oldsmobiles, and Pontiacs Rock can jam in steering coupling
9 3.7 million 1986-1991 Honda Civic, Accord, Prelude; Acura Integra, Legend, NSX Seat belt buckle jams
10 3.7 million 1949-1969 All Volkswagens Windshield wipers

Looking at their entire recall list, several facts stand out:

Recalls didn't start until 1969, with the founding of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
Ford Motor Company has the three largest recalls, by far, on the list, due to electrical components - ignition switches in 1981 and cruise-control switches in 1999 - that were installed across the company's entire lineup.
The solution to the largest recall in history, for Ford transmissions that failed to engage Park, amounted to no more than dealers installing a warning sticker. Well, I feel so much safer with that sticker on board.
The industry has made an awful lot of progress since General Motors downsized its "A-body" lineup in 1978 that included the Chevrolet Monte Carlo and El Camino. The '78 A-Body amassed perhaps the three most alarming recalls, for collapsing front suspensions, jamming steering mechanisms, and wheels and axles falling off. (My father drove three and could have vouched for several of these maladies.)
The latest Toyota recall is nearly 20 percent larger than Toyota's 2009 recall for sticking accelerators; the company's parallel floor mat recall didn't make the list.
Other than the Toyota recalls, foreign companies are not well represented on the list. That's not to say they are without blemishes on their record, just that the scale didn't reach Top 10 proportions. For example, Japanese automakers had some problems with seat-belt buckles in the 1980s. And Volkswagen had one recall that mirrored Ford's problems with installing a single faulty component (windshield wipers) across its entire lineup for many years.

uplanderguy · September 2013

Interesting, but this is now...that was then. Toyota leads in vehicles recalled for three years in a row.

uplanderguy · September 2013

I had a new Jetta for a rental when our Malibu was getting a body repair done for a cellphone talker who ran into the back of it while it was stopped.

I couldn't wait to get our Malibu back.

The Jetta seemed generic to me; in fact, I'd have thought the styling was Korean. Made in Mexico.

circlew · September 2013

Think the Cobalt list was long? Check out the recall/tsb rap sheet on my previus Yukon Denali!

http://www.alldatadiy.com/TSB/23/0323byfZ.html

Disgraceful doesn't even begin to give it justice!:(

circlew · September 2013

No matter how hard you try, you can't erase the failure of GM, Ford and Chrysler regarding the loss of market share due to gross negligence in building quality vehicles.

Toyota and the rest of the Asians have their failures as well....just not as deep!

uplanderguy · September 2013

Man, you've got 1988 TSB's listed for your 2003 vehicle! LOL

uplanderguy · September 2013

I have no doubt that years of union-coddling, resulting in cost-cutting, made a lot of people leave for the Japanese.

I, personally, have never had the experience to make me want to leave. And I'm a first-class cheapskate. I simply haven't had the negative issues many moan about here.

My friend who loves Fords is a car guy, and has subscribed to C&D over the years. He likes what he likes. To me, that makes more sense than blindly buying another country's vehicles repeatedly, without giving the home team another try...it's sort-of like liking a sports team through common perception of good and bad.

Of course, your opinion may vary. I would never suggest that it's "my way or the highway". There's enough of that here.

scwmcan · September 2013

I don't think anyone (including Uplander) is trying to relight history, but you also have to realize that things have changed and are still changing ( and no the change didn't happen quickly enough, thus part of the reason for lost market share). On your list it is interesting to note the last recall from GM was in 1981, now I know they have had some larger recalls after that, but not apparently big enough to make the list. I know some will say that is because they didn't recall all the problem cars, but it may also mean that they were recognizing problems sooner and not needing to recall as many cars, and of course there is also the fact that they were losing market share and not making as many cars, what was their market share at the time of those big recalls? 50+%? If so even though they were large recalls over several model years they are on they list because they sold that many cars, Toyota has nowhere near that kind of market share and is still on the list ( same with the VW and Honda recalls) the GM recall was indeed more serious no doubt about it, but it also covered 3 years for that huge number while toyota's was over 6 years, are we to infer that GM responded to their problems earlier than the mighty Toyota even back in some of their worst times? Since Toyota was fined for ignoring potential problems maybe ( or it may have been political, though there is more evidence of problems being being hidden by some of the Japanese makes including Toyota besides the unintended acceleration mess which I would mostly apply to driver error with a few potentially valid cases) but I think way back then Manufactures were generally very reluctant to place recalls, where after the example made of Toyota they are trigger happy on recalls. All this is to say yes there were problems with GM 30+ years ago and they improved but even 7-15 years ago there were problems, but they have improved even since then. Kia and Hyundai were not really all that good (Kia even more so than Hyundai) as recently as 7 years ago as well, but a lot of people seem to be buying them despite this reputation, because they have improved drastically, I would say GM especially since the bankruptcy has improved at a pretty drastic rate as well, not saying they are all the way there yet, or that it should have taken a bankruptcy to make them realize they needed to change quicker, but I think we can see by how the new models ( with one or two blunders, notably the Malibu) are now at least comparable to the class leaders without seeing glaring deficiencies like there used to be. The Malibu was a mistake because it was rushed to market on the instructions of the CEO and only in the e-assist version, but they did at least respond to the criticisms and like Honda with the Civic did an emergency refresh to much improve it which would have been unheard of in the past, so they are still learning, and I can see they have learned from this not to rush the release of new models, instead delaying their release to ( hopefully) release a properly fully finished model.

uplanderguy · September 2013

No matter how hard you try, you cannot blame TSB's dated years, even decades, before the date of the GM product you dislike.

As Kevin Costner's character tells the Joe Pesci character in "JFK", "I find your story simply not believable".

dieselone · September 2013

"To me, that makes more sense than blindly buying another country's vehicles repeatedly, without giving the home team another try...it's sort-of like liking a sports team through common perception of good and bad. "

I look at blindly buying the same brand over and over in the same light. For some misguided reason, Ford is my favorite domestic brand. But at the same time there are certain qualities in a vehicle I specifically prefer and Ford isn't always the best at meeting those qualities. So I look around and buy what I like best. That's how I ended up with the Ram.

dieselone · September 2013

I tend to have a short memory. The past is in the past. They day GM makes something I gotta have, I'll buy it.

ateixeira · September 2013

Toyota leads in vehicles recalled for three years in a row.

Source please?

I think most were in one calendar year, so I'm not sure if that's true.

Edit: Honda had the most in 2011 so I'm pretty sure you are incorrect, sir.

ateixeira · September 2013

So far in 2013 Chrysler has a big lead, for the 2.7 million Jeep fuel tank fire thing.

But the key is this - Chrysler resisted. They fought long and hard.

Here's an article before the recall was issued:

http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/chrysler-refuses-to-recall-27-million-jeeps-desp- ite-pressure-from-feds.html

"stands behind the quality of its vehicles."

Ironic, since they reversed course on that.

Any how, fact is Jeep quality has improved, and the recall was for Grand Cherokees more than a decade old, and Liberty models at least 7 years old.

Recall count is a poor measure of quality.

circlew · September 2013

Don't need to try at all to note GM's failure GM does all the trying for me. (I got rid of my lemon...."Oh, what a relief it is!")

That's why they lost market share in the first place. As Bill Gates reminds us: "It's fine to celebrate success but it is more important to learn the lessons of failure."

GM needs to keep learning and the history can not be changed no matter how hard they try.

ateixeira · September 2013

To be fair, the new trucks are substantially different. All engines in the lineup now have Direct Injection and lead their class in fuel economy, besting competing Nissan and Toyota trucks.

Perhaps they have learned? By far they sell the most trucks over $40k.

uplanderguy · September 2013

In 2011, Honda did surpass Toyota in recalls for the year:

http://www.statisticbrain.com/automobile-recall-statistics/

For 2012, Honda again:

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/ehmk45jgie/2-820000-honda-civics-and-pilots/

2010, Toyota:

http://autos.aol.com/gallery/2010-top-car-recalls/

I do absolutely remember Toyota being reported as recalling the most cars three years in a row. That's the danger of going from memory.

To say recalls has nothing to do with quality is disingenuous.

Surely, and I do mean surely, you realize that GM recalls are derided here by some posters as a sign of poor quality.

Come on.

And remember, not very long ago, Toyota was fined for its handling (or non-handling) of a recall.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2013

Depends on a) what the recall was for; b) how many cars were recalled and c) whether the recall resolves the problem completely.

So Car A has 5 recalls, for things like wipers, door handles, light switches, etc covering 1 million cars

Car B has only 2 recalls, for brakes and suspension failure, covering 2 million cars, and one of those calls for "reprogramming".

To my mind, I'm more paranoid about Car B than Car A.

dieselone · September 2013

"All engines in the lineup now have Direct Injection and lead their class in fuel economy, besting competing Nissan and Toyota trucks. "

Yes and no. Toyota doesn't play around with gear ratios to boost fuel economy. Every Tundra comes with a rear axle ratio that can tow the max amount with a v8.

It's not that way with the detroit trucks. Sure, the Silverado gets the best EPA ratings, but uses a 3.08 gear ratio to do it. But for max towing, you need the 3.73. I'd bet it won't get return EPA rating of 16/22 with that ratio unless you drive pretty slow.

In the real world tests I've seen where the trucks are geared for towing, they all get fairly comparable mileage, the Tundra is usually a few mpg behind, and the Titan, well it's basically a 2004 truck;) and in deed the gas mileage is pretty dismal.

That said, while the Silverado does get good mileage for a truck. It really doesn't have the power of a Hemi or Ecoboost either. I'll be very curious to see the EPA ratings on the upcoming 6.2.

According to the results from pickuptrucks.com. The hemi Ram, Ecoboost f150, and Tundra have similar performance that are measurably ahead of the new Silverado when equipped in similar fashion. But you'll get a little bet better FE in the Silverado, but it also has less HP and torque.

ateixeira · September 2013

To say recalls has nothing to do with quality

I didn't say that, though.

What I said was it's not a good measure, not by itself.

You could, like the Chrysler example, have Jeep deny the problem exists, then 2.7 million recalls later we know otherwise.

My last recall was for potential rust that didn't exist - no problem.

Would you rather have a problem that the manufacturer denies, or a non-existent problem but a manufacturer who wants to be sure, to be on the safe side?

I pick the latter.

You're right that Toyota was fined for dragging its feet, but now they're doing the opposite - trigger happy and recalling even potential issues and fixing them before customers experience problems.

Not out of the goodness of their hearts, mind you. More for the PR I'm sure. And I read that they sold more cars to people who went in to perform recalls. This may be {conspiracy theory alert} intentional.

ateixeira · September 2013

Good catch, I didn't realize that.

I'm sure the standard gearing is there for the Harry Homeowner types. And for marketing.

Still, DI standard in all trucks? Nice...

busiris · September 2013

That's exactly what I've been saying all along.

To arrive at any reasonable comparison point, one needs to factor the number of recalls, their severity, and the number of units recalled in each incident into the formula in order to get anything meaningful out of the analysis.

ateixeira · September 2013

I've had 2 recalls yet my van had neither problem.

I'm sure uplanderguy's Cobalt hasn't had most (if not all) of the issues mentioned in those TSBs, either.

Especially the ones that came out 10 years before the car was built.

That is funny, BTW. LOL

Let's not mis-use information. We see a TSB, ok, how many are actually affected? Same for a recall. And how serious is the problem?

Heck, it's raw data, not information. For it to be considered information it would have to be categorized and organized. Those TSBs clearly are not.

uplanderguy · September 2013

Both our Cobalts had the power steering motor recall done, and both had the 'campaign' (not 'recall') for the potential of keys getting stuck in the ignition. They've warrantied that for ten years, but I figured, why wait for it to happen? LOL

Actually, the '09 had that done already, per a VIN check at my dealer.

Michaell · September 2013

Both our Cobalts had the power steering motor recall done, and both had the 'campaign' (not 'recall') for the potential of keys getting stuck in the ignition.

My '06 ION had the power steering fix done to it. Didn't know that the ignition key was also something I could get done for free. Had mine replaced for something like $200 at the dealer.

ateixeira · September 2013

They changed the PS motor, but was it even bad? Maybe not. That's my point.

So it's not necessarily a quality flaw. Just a potential one.

It's sort of the opposite - GM is making sure that you do not experience that.

This is why I don't like it when people complain about stuff like this. Automakers should not be punished for playing it safe. I'm sure many perfectly good PS pumps were replaced.

Sounds like your keys never got stuck, either.

And GM took care of you.

No problem that I can see...

I'm pretty sure there haven't been 2.7 million Jeep fuel tanks catching on fire, too.

andre1969 · September 2013

I'm pretty sure there haven't been 2.7 million Jeep fuel tanks catching on fire, too.

Heck, even in the days of the Ford Pinto, the "Barbeque that Seats Four", it's not like they were bursting into flames on a regular basis. In fact, according to death rates, you were no more likely to die in a Pinto than any other small car of that era. According to http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1971-1980-ford-pinto12.htm , it looks like 27 people total were burned to death in Pinto fires.

And, I'm sure it took much less of an impact to make a Pinto blow up than it would a Jeep! I've heard that the Pinto would leak in an impact as low as 11 mph.

uplanderguy · September 2013

You might google to see if the Ion was included in that 'campaign'. You should've gotten a letter, but you know how that can work. If you have your receipt, maybe you'll be reimbursed, who knows?

Michaell · September 2013

You might google to see if the Ion was included in that 'campaign'. You should've gotten a letter, but you know how that can work. If you have your receipt, maybe you'll be reimbursed, who knows?

I know I've got the receipt. Will take a look and see if I can get reimbursed, if the ION was in fact included.

ateixeira · September 2013

That's the type of headline grabber that the media just loves.

ateixeira · September 2013

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/09/27/2014-jeep-cherokee-transmission-production-pr- oblem/

This is the kind of cover up that's just plain dumb.

As if they'd be able to keep this problem a secret. It wasn't even a big deal - just a software reprogramming. And they caught it early.

But now it becomes a headline because of the dumb story they made up. We need fewer cars right after we needed more cars, because we have more cars vs. fewer cars that we need more of in fewer days.

Stupid.

circlew · September 2013

GM market share YTD Aug 2013 = 18.1%

GM market share history (by decade, 1920 - 2009)

Someone fell asleep building cars... :mad:

anythngbutgm · September 2013

Wonder if that spike in import share is from the sale of Chrysler to the Italians. I've fought tooth and nail with folks on other forums who refuse to believe that Chrysler is not a "murican brand" anymore...

Nor is there such a thing as "The Big 3", unless they consider Toyota one of them since August standings show that Toyota is the #2 selling nameplate in the Country right now, behind Ford and ahead of Chevy.

stever · September 2013

Maybe it will be again if the UAW manages to get the IPO floated. Fiat will still own the controlling shares though.

andre1969 · September 2013

Oh I remember in the late 70's, they'd show Pintos exploding in crash tests on the morning news and such, and it made you think it was happening all the time.

Supposedly, the 1978+ GM A-bodies, the downsized models that Circlew mentioned, were pretty vulnerable to fuel leakage as well. I remember reading about a woman in texas whose 1980 Malibu broke down on the side of the road. She had either one or two kids sleeping in the back seat. The car got rear-ended by a flatbed truck and caught on fire. The impact was enough that it jammed the rear doors shut and she couldn't get the kid(s) out. There was another instance where a 1983 or so Olds Cutlass Cruiser got rear-ended at high speed at a toll booth in New Jersey, and caught on fire and killed some people.

And I even remember as a kid, seeing a '78 or '79 Malibu that had been rear-ended, and it was leaking gasoline. Didn't burst into flames though, as this was real life, and not an episode of CHiPs or the A-Team!

I'm guessing that GM's '78-88 RWD intermediates weren't *that* dangerous though, as it doesn't seem like they really made any headlines. And the few stories I heard of may have just been cherry-picked. Plus, they were a bit more than tapping a Pinto at 11 mph, as the Malibu was hit by a medium-duty truck, and the wagon rear-ended at high speed.

BTW, I never heard of the Malibu recall that Circlew mentioned, about the control arm breaking. Kinda scary, as my first car was a 1980 Malibu coupe! I didnt' get it until 1987 when Mom gave it to me, and can't remember if it got recalled when she had it or not. I do remember it needed new rear axle shafts around 80,000 miles though, in late 1987. And they were $145 apiece, plus labor. Plus a bunch of other crap that came out to around $1100.

uplanderguy · September 2013

"BTW, I never heard of the Malibu recall that Circlew mentioned, about the control arm breaking."

It was that 1959 TSB.

circlew · September 2013

Funny, they had to recall Police Impalas last year for the same issue! Don't worry if your Impala isn't a cop car, though. Parts are apparently different or something...

-DETROIT  General Motors is recalling 36,413 Chevrolet Impala Police Sedans from the 2008-2012 model years sold in the United States to replace the front lower control arms that support the vehicle's wheels. The safety recall does not include non-police Impala models.

If the front lower control arm fractures and separates from its handling bushing sleeve, sudden changes in vehicle handling and reduced steering control may result, depending on vehicle speed and road surface conditions.

GM knows of no crashes, injuries or deaths related to the condition. The Impala Police Sedan is sold to municipalities in the United States and Canada.

Dealers will replace the right-hand and left-hand front lower control arms. GM expects to begin mailing owner letters on Aug. 21, 2012.-

andres3 · September 2013

I really don't think there are people out there blindly buying foreign cars. They buy them for the same reason you buy US-made cars; they've never had an issue with them in the past.

Most people don't punish success and reward failure. It's just natural human instinct.

Mr_Shiftright · September 2013

They will reward failure if they believe the excuses that the failers made for the failure, e.g. "you can blame the UAW for everything. We designed perfect, beautiful, highly efficient cars but the UAW built their own instead while we weren't looking". Or "our cars were just as good as the imports but the automobile press conspired against us". Or "the imports didn't play fair, but we did" .

andres3 · September 2013

Hard to believe those excuses if you owned and experienced one first-hand.

Sort of like a used car salesman trying to tell me Neons are actually quite reliable

:P

uplanderguy · September 2013

I think about you virtually every day, because I see Neons around here in the rusty NE, virtually every day.

They're almost always the second-generation, though.

andres3 · September 2013

Even the 2nd generation Neon is a RARE sight here in CA, and when you do see them (or the rare 1st generation), they look like a pile!

The Current State of the US Auto Market

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