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Pontiac GTO



  • ruskiruski Posts: 1,566
    The address of the Holden site is
  • google is a search engine not the holden web site.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,881 works fine

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • ruskiruski Posts: 1,566
    yeah, but plug in Holden and hit Search button and you will sure get answers to all your questions.

    That's what I did when I first heard about Holden Commodore a few years ago.
  • lol thanks i thought there might have been another web site you've gotton pics of the 05 gto
  • I've been catching up on messagese and didn't see much addressing of the decade old platform question in depth. The basic platform of the GTO was introduced in 1994 by Opel for the new Opel/Vauxhall Omega and sold in Austrailia as the Holden Commodore. The Opel came to the USA from Germany in late 1996 as the Cadillac Catera. The GTO rides a shortended Catera platform so yes, it is a 10 year old platform. If you look at a 2000 or 2001 Catera you will not notice many similarities between the GTO but you will see that they are probably the best GM cars in terms of build quality and interior ergonomics. The Catera/GTO far exceed typical GM automobiles and we all know GM has a reputation as having the worst interiors. The rest of the world will not tolerate the junk GM pawns off on America. Europeans would laugh at the thought of driving a US Cavalier.

    Having said that, I really like the GTO because it reminds of the Catera in the fact that it has a European look and build quality is excellent. However, GM's European/Australian subsidiaries don't have Japanese reliability. While I love my Catera, it has been a reliability nightmare and I'm sure GM has put over $10,000 in fixing my 2000 Catera. The difference is that Cadillac typically has good customer service (esp. compared to Pontiac) and offers a 4yr/50K warranty. I have a Caddy certified used warranty which means 6yrs/100K bumper to bumper coverage and I'm sure I'll be using it often. Pontiac offers 3yr/36K on a GTO that will be extremely expensive to fix and will probably not have stellar reliability if it is anything like a Catera or most other GM products. The saving grace is that the GTO has an US made engine with a good reputation. The Saab 3.0L V6 used in the Catera is absolute garbage and the source of a lot of the Catera's problems.

    I know I'm rambling but the thought of buying a non-typical GM car at a Pontiac dealership with a 3 year warranty is absolutely frightening. And hopefully the resale value of the GTO will not follow the way of the Catera, which probably has the worst resale value of any car on the road. My 2000 was $35K new and I bought it for $16K just 3 years later and it was absolutely mint with 27,000 miles and a 100K warranty. 97 Cateras in good shape go for about $3,500 - $5,000 on Ebay.

    The GTO may be my next car but GM needs to up the warranty first. I also want to rebadge the car as a Holden but am not sure how difficult that would be. I rebadged my Catera as a Vauxhall and it was very easy and provided excellent results.


    Those paying large premiums to be the first GTO owner on the block will hopefully want to hold onto the car for a very long time.
  • sportgtosportgto Posts: 14
    The Catera isn't that bad compared to a Deville, almost $50 k new, $26k a year old, and a '97 would go for about $4500 in good condition and average to low miles.

    I don't think the GTO will have reliability issues. If you look at other cars with the same engine/trans, they are fairly reliable. Even mercedes, bmw, jaguar, etc have problems, so for a high performance car at $33k, you can't be too demanding, all makes at any price will have problems from time to time.

    Resale value on the GTO is hard to predict. I would be willing to bet that it does better then the old F-body's. Who knows, it may end up the like the '95-'96 Impala SS, which probably has the best resale value on the road.
  • v8lincolnguyv8lincolnguy Posts: 273
    While some GM cars do have lousy interiors, I certainly don't think the old Catera was one of their better efforts. It was okay, but Cadillac level luxury it was not. Compare a Catera interior to that of an STS or DTS or another luxury car in it's price class. It just isn't(or wasn't) as nice. IMO, that along with the dull exterior styling were the Catera's biggest shortcomings. As for GTO reliability, I think we can rest assured the powertrain is solid. As for the rest of the components, well you do have somewhat of a valid concern. Especially considering the problems with the Catera.
  • ezraponezrapon Posts: 348
    between the gto and the gxp. I know the performance is a no-brainer. Reliability is probably a wash...gxp has the northstar and a 4 year old platform... that's a + or - depending on your perspective. The rear wheel drive LS2 is hard to beat, in fact the gxp doesn't come close. However, the negatives on the gto; new engine and gingerbread on the horizon might kill resale. The GXP is already discounted to the GTO price and will probably not receive any major (resale killing) upgrades anytime soon. The GXP has a much better option list and is slicker looking IMHO. Anyone else stuck between these 2 beasts?
  • bxd20bxd20 Posts: 68
    GTO has LS1 not LS2. And if you're talking '05, the LS2 has not been confirmed by any 'reliable' source.

    As far as the Catera and GTO sharing platforms, yes they do, but it's just the "frame" they share. Engine, tranny, all electricals, interior pieces, suspension bits, all Monaro/GTO. The Catera's reliability and the GTO's isn't comparable, too many differences.
  • oldmanoldman Posts: 35
    The F bods supposedly were killed because the platform could not attain the 2005 government crash performance without re-work. GM decided to drop the F bods rather than rework, adopted the Holden as a stop gap? Since the Catera performed badly in crash performances of the past, does this portend badly for GTO crashworthiness??? A 10 year old platform can probably be improved with enhanced computer design, simulations, modeling, so is ancient! If GTO doesn't sell well, look for another roll out eventually with a modern chasis??? Me thinks the 2005 mustang will burn GMs butt, take their business, and leave them wondering where all the GTO buyers have gone.
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,881

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Posts: 291
    If you're willing to do some research and maybe take a drive this car can now be had for significantly less than sticker.

    I read on another forum that deals for anyone walking in the door are being cut for prices ranging from $170 over invoice to $2K off msrp. My guess is that these deals are for cars that have been on the dealer's lot too long. Wonder how many they sold in April?
  • montanafanmontanafan Posts: 945
    I knew the dealers would have to be the ones to blink. But surprised they would have to go to $300 under invoice cost to move the cars as the weather gets better.

    Another 650 hit the streets in April, for about 2,450 for the year. So in line with the other months.
  • "As far as the Catera and GTO sharing platforms, yes they do"

    Actually the GTO (monaro) doesnt share its platform with the Catera. Looking at holden's history, their first and only "sharing" of cars with europe nearly sent them bankrupt. Why? because of reliability issues i.e. doors falling off in holdens testing grounds, creaks, and basically fell apart in Australia's rough terrain. This damaged holdens "tough, durable, simple and reliable" image, as a result Holden vowed to NEVER use European platform again. The platform Holdens use today are vhastly different, not only are the longer and wider, they are also stronger (among other things). Holdens use the VT platform, this came out in 97. The monaro or GTO's platform is unique, this was made in 99 and went into production in 2001. I would hardly call the GTO's platform OLD.

    As for interior quality, ergonomics and design. Compare the interior of the GTO with any other American car. The GTO's interior is classy and functional, even against CTSV's. IMV the GTO's interior and comfort surpasses that of many BMW's, and is closer to top VW's and audis (widely regarded in the design world as the world leaders in car design). Holden management are aiming to for audi and VW (design) in their new VE.
  • The basic platform of the GTO was introduced in 1994 by Opel for the new Opel/Vauxhall Omega and sold in Austrailia as the Holden Commodore.The Opel came to the USA from Germany in late 1996 as the Cadillac Catera. The GTO rides a shortended Catera platform so yes, it is a 10 year old platform." The "VT commodore" only shared door handles with the Catera, nothing else. One of the issues with the VT were its door handles (i should know since this happened to the company car). The VX and VY commodores look different, hare nothing and have no interchangable parts with the catera.

    Its common knowledge that Europe has some of the best cars. However when holden gave them the monaro it was roundly praised (build quality, handling, room, design).


    ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------
    'Champagne quality at lager prices.' That's Vauxhall's verdict on the forthcoming Monaro, which has 'come screeching into the UK' with the promise of 6.0-second, 160mph performance - at an almost absurd-sounding £28,650.

    Looking vaguely like an Omega coupe, the Monaro is an Aussie-built Holden model brought to the UK in one of the bolder badge-engineering exercises you're likely to see.

    And 'bold' is definitely one of the words you could use to describe it, thanks to its in-yer-face styling and 5.7-litre V8 engine - which puts 329bhp and 343lb ft to the floor through a six-speed manual gearbox and, sing, choirs of angels, rear-wheel drive powertrain. Combined fuel consumption of less than 20mpg might not do your heart much good, but if ya wanna play...

    No doubt, then, that this is a pure muscle car in the old-school tradition. Or is it? With twin front and side airbags, seatbelt pre-tensioners, anti-submarining ramps and even (pah, eeeuw, ptui) child restraint anchor points, as well as an LED centre brake light, active front head restraints and seat backs and various failure warning systems, the safety spec reads more like that of a sensible family car.

    No, hang on, it can't be a sensible family car. Not with leather, cruise, dual-zone climate, power everything, park assist, trip computer, smart wipers and headlamps, six-disc CD ICE with wheel-mounted controls, alloy pedals and advanced NVH counter-measures... that all sounds more like the preserve of a pretty high-ranking exec model.

    But then, what's this? Sports suspension, switchable traction control (aka a fun button), a rear LSD, 18-inch alloys with 235/40 R18 tyres and a special 'make noise' exhaust... you might even be forgiven for picking up more of a super-coupe vibe from it. Especially as there'll be a 380bhp version coming along in the summer, featuring 'all of the above and much, much more.'

    Confused yet? It's a supercar, a family car (albeit only with two doors), a luxury car... is the Monaro all things to everyone, possibly? Well, with that sort of price tag it might also start giving the value-or-death brigade a bit of a bleeding nose - because as Vauxhall modestly points out, it costs 20% less than a Mercedes CLK 320, 25% less than a BMW M3 and 40% less than a BMW 6 Series.

    According to Jeremy Clarkson the monaro is a "cut price BMW M3". i agree.
  • ruskiruski Posts: 1,566
    there was a comparison article a few years ago on an Australian Carpoint website where they took an HSV Commodore, an E55, and an M5 to the Nurnberg track and raced them against each other. Basically the Commodore held its own very well and I think in some tests was better than either M5 or E55. Whenever it lost it didn't lose by much at all.

    BTW is anyone has a copy of that article, please forward it to me as I can't find it anymore.
  • there was a comparison article a few years ago on an Australian Carpoint website where they took an HSV Commodore, an E55, and an M5 to the Nurnberg track and raced them against each other. Basically the Commodore held its own very well and I think in some tests was better than either M5 or E55. Whenever it lost it didn't lose by much at all.

    I remmember that....the commodore came second I think(?) The M5 won, followed by the HSV then the Merc. However the HSV was the best handler (for a race driver). Drivers were a swede touring car champ, mark skaif and a brit.
  • midwesttradermidwesttrader Posts: 291
    Truck sales were up 1.5% while car sales went down 1.8%. Interestingly sales of Pontiac's Grand Prix and Grand Am were both up big, so there was plently of foot traffic just little of it headed for the GTO.

    Based on '04 GTO sales to date it looks like they will sell about 7400 for the year unless they have some big summer sales months.

    Anybody think they'll cut-off production after June or July and try to release the "improved" '05 with their other models?
  • andys120andys120 Loudon NHPosts: 18,881
    who paid MSRP+ to be first.

    2000 BMW 528i, 2001 BMW 330CiC

  • orwoodyorwoody Posts: 269
    I notice that sometime recently GM starting allowing up to $1000 use of GM Card points for the GTO. I'm betting they'll add rebates in June.
  • robertkcalrobertkcal Posts: 14
    $1,000 is the minimum amount on any GM car, no matter what model. I used mine when my car came in December.
  • montanafanmontanafan Posts: 945
    $1000 for the GTO has been posted on the GM Card site since last spring/summer. The GM Card site even had a special bonus for people the Malibu Maxx before it came out.

  • sportgtosportgto Posts: 14
    I know of a dealer in the Atlanta area willing to sell the GTO at GMS. Very tempting, but I'm not sure if I can afford it. What does everyone else think?
  • rcc442rcc442 Posts: 56
    For those who can buy below MSRP, consider yourselves fortunate. Local dealer here (in Fla.) has 7 on the lot and is still sticking to his "$5000 above MSRP" pricing. (Oh yeah... also says you might get a "discount" from that price if you're on their "preferred customer" list... which still means about $3500 above MSRP.) This dealer is not alone in over-MSRP pricing; the dealer in Daytona Beach says he has sold every one he's had for $5000 above MSRP (except the 6-speed, which sold for $6000 above), so he has no reason to sell for less.
    I would love to buy for GMS price... but I'm holding out for the '05. I wonder how many of us are holding out? Think the demand for '05's will be significantly higher than for the '04 because we all waited?? (meaning dealers won't need incentives to move them?)
  • rcc442rcc442 Posts: 56
    One dealer told me very matter-of-factly that there will be two versions in '05... the base (similar to '04 except split exhaust), and the Judge, which will be the model with the hood scoops, the LS2, and the 18" wheels. We'll have to wait and see...

    Like some others, I personally don't think there will be an LS1 and LS2 offered in the same year... all '05's will get the same engine; we just don't know which at this point.... although the point someone made that GM won't build both LS1's and LS2's at the same time seems to be a pretty convincing argument for the LS2.
  • montanafanmontanafan Posts: 945
    I think the long lead times, as long as 5 months from production acceptance to arrival, is one of the reasons the 2004 was offered with no options other then trans & color. That theory would again lead me to believe that 2005 should be simular. But I have read that it is possible that the scoops/tire upgrade/spoiler could be optional for 2005 based on Pontiac follow up calls with 2004 GTO owners. That could fall into (and be about the only way to pull it off) your theory of "base" and "Judge", although wouldn't every dealer just order "Judge"? They could limit the "Judge" production and still offer two engines. That will just be great in the parts of the country that get low GTO supplies, it will be even harder for those guys to get a "Judge".

    If the dealer is still holding to that much above MSRP, they will have the cars a long time. And that is doing a disservice to the car's reputation. The midwest dealers are moving them now at GMS. Will be interesting to see the May sales vs. past months.
  • rcc442rcc442 Posts: 56
    If the dealers read this forum, I'm sure they won't order all GTO's as the Judge. Just look at how many folks have written that they are not interested in/don't want the hood scoops, for example. That must be what GM found in those follow-up calls you mentioned. Considering it's less expensive to offer a "package" of options rather than individual options, probably led to the consideration of a Judge model. This is unfortunate in a way; I, for one, would be interested in the scoops and the spoiler, but not the 18" wheels (17" are expensive enough to replace!).
    The dealer with the 7 (plus another one listed on GM BuyPower which I haven't seen on the lot yet) claims he is not expecting any/many more 2004's, so these must last him until October (traditional new model year introduction). That would mean he has to sell only 1 or 2 per month to make 'em last, meaning he can hold out for those few nuts who will pay the premium for one. This is the same dealer who, believe it or not, still has one or two Trans Am's left-over (from 2002) at a mark-up above MSRP! By the way, this guy also advertises as the #1 Pontiac dealer in Florida (total units sold).
  • montanafanmontanafan Posts: 945
    Actually he will have to stretch them longer. 2005 GTO production dosen't start until mid-September. That means the first ones will not be state side until December sometime.

    It must be a nightmare to try and predict/plan/schedule the right colors/options/packages. It is not like a Grand Prix, where if the dealer dosen't have the "right" combo, he can factory order in about a month.

    And now we know that the Trans AM "retired" to Florida. ;-)
  • rcc442rcc442 Posts: 56
    Could it be true that there might be more GM RWD coupes to choose from in the not-too-distant future??
    In another Edmunds forum, there was a rumor of a RWD Monte Carlo as early as 2006??!!! No details as to which platform might be used, etc...
    In still another Edmunds forum, there was mention of a RWD Grand Prix in 2008, based on the new "Zeon" ("Xeon"?) platform, meaning it would be "slightly larger than today's Grand Prix". Slightly larger? Wouldn't that make it about the size of the GTO?? 2008... exactly 20 years after the last GM domestic RWD mid-size... took 'em a LONG time to realize their mistake!

    (Sorry, but I still don't like to spell "Grand Prix" like that... they should have never changed it from "Gran" to "Grand", just because people didn't spend the time to note the exact spelling! More of the "dumbing down" of America...)

    So, maybe it won't be a 2005 GTO for me after all.. may have to wait to see what develops..
This discussion has been closed.