The fleet manager I am currently dealing with will (apparently) let me know some pricing tomorrow... ask me if I believe him.
I don't doubt however that the sales folks will know something before it comes up on the DC site... and that should be soon. If he can give me any sort of concrete information I'll pass it on.
I hope he does actually get back to me as I'm taking off on vacations for a couple of weeks. I suspect I'll have plenty of messages to catch up on when I get back! :-)
"Contrast this with the man stopping along the highway to clean the bugs off his Jeep... "
Yeah, can you believe it? What happened to that guy? Well, what happened was that he went "wheelin'" for the first time, and that was all she wrote. He had so much fun and was so amazed by what his little Jeep, even though stock at the time, would do!
I sure hope the environmental extremists don't mess up the fun for everyone. Wheelin' areas around the country on public lands are threatened by the enviro [non-permissible content removed].
I have seen entire families enjoy wheelin' together. America needs clean, wholesome, outdoor activities that the entire family can do together. Lord knows that there are precious few things now a days that the whole family can truly enjoy together. It seems like family members go their own separate ways, each member having "their own thing."
At Turkey Bay, four wheelers, dirt bikes, and Jeeps all share the same trails, and I have seen little kids that appear to be no older than five or six out there on dirt bikes, riding in a group with their parents and siblings. The little ones always have a look of pride on their faces, and you can tell they are having a blast out there.
Why should someone try to take that fun away from them?
grk235-slam the brakes on while you're trying that passenger seat belt and I'll bet it works. That's when it's really meant to grab, hard, fast deceleration. They seem to come in varying degrees of sensitivity.
jenb-just a few general Jeep comments. If you get the half doors, you also get the zipper windows. I personally hated those things. Get both tops and be sure to make use of the top being off in good weather. Putting the soft top up and down is a chore though. Compared to a car for long distances, a Jeep is noisy, bouncy and wanders all over the road. It's a Jeep, I wouldn't have it any other way. No blind spots in my Jeep.
I hope people did not get the impression from my previous post that I do not care about the environment. I certainly DO care. I just don't agree with the extremists, who seem to think that every acre of public land should be "wilderness."
Wheelin' does have some environmental impact, and measures should be taken to be sure that the impact is minimized, that it is confined to the designated area itself, and that it does not effect the surrounding area.
I believe in "carrying out" what I "carry in." Heck, I even stop to pick up other people's trash, so I carry out MORE than I carry in.
I stay on the designated trails, so as not to cause erosion or damage to plant life in new areas.
Wheelin' can be a good way to teach kids to respect the environment.
"Even running street proessure, you're still my wheeling hero, Tom <grin>. Anyone that embraces it to the point of going 2 or 3 weekends a month gets a big THUMBS UP from me!"
Yeah, Trey, on a BAD month, I only get to go two or three times. I like to go EVERY weekend.
I definitley love it, and I know you do too. Most people just can't go as often as I do. I am fortunate to have weekends free and to have a great place like Turkey Bay only 70 miles away.
I might give airing down a try, but they don't have a compressor at TB, and you have to drive about 20 miles to get to the nearest gas station to air back up. Guess that's not really a problem as long as I don't go too low on the pressure when I air down.
The only time I ever tried airing down was at Superlift ORV Park in Arkansas, but I had no basis for comparison. I had not run the same trails "aired up," so I had no way of knowing how much it helped to air down.
I was stubborn about disconnecting the front sway bar when I first started wheelin', but when I finally did, MAN WHAT A DIFFERENCE! So maybe I will come to realize the benefit of airing down some day.
maybe they could place a compressor somewhere near the ranger station. It could even be set up on the "donation" system. You might be able to argue that airing down is more "enviromentally friendly" :-).
No problem with headroom, I am 6'2 and still have a foot or so. Legroom is good, as you sit in an upright type position. My only complaint is that my left knee rubs against the window crank (I drive a stick - w/ an auto not a problem. The new seats also seem more comfortable and the seat may go back farther.
I believe in "carrying out" what I "carry in." Heck, I even stop to pick up other people's trash, so I carry out MORE than I carry in...
Heh, sounds like what I'll be doing on my upcoming hike. Hopefully won't have to carry out everything if you know what I mean (and sure as heck not picking up after others!)... ;-p
Now, I am no enviro-[non-permissible content removed] but I think that there is a need for balance. Designated areas should be usable for whatever purpose they were designated for. People utilizing such areas should take care of it (like what you do). It allows for outdoor activities that can be enjoyed by families, or individuals, as they please.
At the same time there is a lack of pristine, or true, wilderness that should be left alone to minimize impact on the wildlife. We have some large national parks in the rockies here and I am glad that access to some parts is somewhat restricted. Tourist, commercial, and recreational industry is always fighting to expand into these areas, typically with adverse effects on the environment - it's a quick buck mentality. There is beauty and mystery in them dark and unknown woods... and it should be left alone to be admired by future generations.
Anyway, that's just my $.02 (less after conversion)...
I can tell you about the two lifts I've done to my '02 X, a suspension "spacer" lift and a body lift. The spacer lift involved 2 inch spacers inserted above the coil springs. This wasn't too difficult and you don't have to have special tools. I choose to use a spring compressor for the front springs since it was difficult to put the springs back after inserting the spacer. I would recommend replacing the stock shocks at the time of this lift, not only for a better ride and more control and traction, but for more suspension travel. The stock shocks won't let you utilize those extra couple of inches from the spacers. BTW, I installed what they call bar pin eliminators which gave my stock shocks a little extra length, but I ended up replacing the shocks (and ditching the bar pin elimators) shortly there after - so that was a waste.
Another suspension lift is longer coil springs, a little more money than the spacers, but worth it if you can swing it. Basically the same type of installation as the spacer lift. You've got to jack up the Jeep by the frame and let the wheel hang and pull out the old spring and insert the new longer one (I'm simplifying of course) and you may have to disconnect the sway bar to let the axle hang low enough to get the springs out/in. This is where that $10 spring compressor came in handy, it compressed the front springs enough to make it easy to pop out and you could compress the new spring to fit it in easier.
I also did a 2 inch body lift that was much more difficult and I wouldn't recommend doing it if you can get enough of a lift from a suspension lift. It was a pain in the neck. You basically have to unbolt the body from the frame and insert 2" spacers at all those points. But, you then have to install brackets to lower the radiator, a spacer for the steering linkage, extend the gas filler and vent tubes and a spacer bracket for the transfer case shift linkage (which you have to loosen and recalibrate to shift the full range).
Things to keep in mind, too much suspension lift will create too much of an angle for the read drive line and cause vibrations and stress on the u-joints. I think a 2" lift is okay, but after that you might have a problem. Some people drop their transfer case to compensate for the lift, but then you'll loose that precious ground clearance in the center. Will you be off-roading? If so, don't drop the t-case, there's other alternatives. Another concern is body lifts, they may provide the weight of the body just enough extra leverage to tear the embedded nuts out of the body at the mounting points. I may be heading that way with my 2" lift, but some say it's the 3" lift that will get you.
Of course you can combine all these styles of lifts, longer springs plus spacers and a small body lift, but then you'll have to look at that driveline angle and track bar adjustments.
I'm sure I missed a few points, but I'm sure some of the veterans on this board can chime in.
If all you want is more tire clearance for the purpose of going to bigger tires, then a body lift or a spacer lift will do that job.
As Pete said, you should be careful about body lifts, because the longer the distance between the body and the frame, the more stress (leverage)is placed on the bolts and on the metal where the bolts attach to the body as the body twists or leans in corners. Pete has a two inch body lift, and it may work out fine, but LOTS and LOTS of people warn against going over one inch on body lifts.
One of the good things about body lifts is that they do not effect drive line angle. Your transfer case yoke and the yoke on the rear differential are in the same positions relative to one another after a body lift as they were before.
A spacer lift has the advantage of being cheaper than a lift that involves longer springs. A spacer lift does not contribute anything toward addtional flex, however, as would a lift with longer springs.
A suspension lift, whether spacers or longer springs, will change the drive line angle. As long as you are going no higher than a two inch lift by either spacers or springs, you should have no problem with vibrations. Above two inches, though, you begin to get high enough that there might be vibrations.
The problem is that the transfer case goes up with the suspension, but the differential does not go up accordingly. This means that you have increased the angle between the yoke of the t-case and the yoke on the differential, which, in turn, causes the U-joints to have to operate outside of their designed angle range. Vibrations in the drive train are often the result of this.
The cheapest way to overcome this problem is to get a transfer case drop kit to lower the transfer case back to its orginal position (or back in that direction, at least).
The problem there is that you have given up the extra clearance at the transfer case that the lift gave you. You can still get the bigger tires that you wanted, though, which might have been you main objective for the lift to start with.
A couple other things to contend with above two inches of suspension lift are the brake lines and the trac bar. It will almost certainly be necessary to extend your brake lines to allow the extra wheel travel that you will be getting. I have a two inch lift, and I am definitely at the limit of my stock brake lines.
Another thing above two inhces is that the trac bar will most likely have to be relocated. The trac bar mounts to the frame on one end and to the axle on the other end. It's what keeps your axle centered under the vehicle. As you raise the frame via the lift intsallation, this will pull the axle to the side where the trac bar is attached to the frame. You will have one tire sticking out farther than the one on other side. To recenter the axle, you will need a trac bar relocation bracket, which would normally be included in the lift kit. I have heard that these things can be a bear to install.
This pic shows what is meant by "flex." Notice how nice and level the bumper is, but look at the angle of the front and back axles. You really can't see the rear axle, but from the position of the back tires, you can tell what the angle the of the axle must be. It's also obvious from this pic why you might need longer brake lines and longer shocks to allow for the extra axle droop.
The front sway bar is disconnected, which allows much more axle travel or "flex." The reason flex is good is that it keeps your tires in contact with the ground for traction as you go through unlevel places. Obviously, there are limits to that, and even with good flex, you will lift a tire sometimes, if you get into the "fun" stuff.
Thanks for the invitation. Unfortunately, my free time only appears at short notice, and Turkey Bay is more than just a couple of hours drive away. However, never say never :-)
Airing down is just as much a part of vehicle preparation as disconnecting the front sway bar or selecting low range. You then develop your skill in determining the correct pressure to match the terrain. The 'Truck Air' 12v compressor is probably the best low end bang for the buck at around $40. I've even seen it at K-Mart.
Finally, it's the rear track bar that usually gets a relocation bracket. It's a piece of cake to fit if approached correctly, virtually impossible if not. At the front the ideal solution is an adjustable bar. The most economic solution is to drill new holes for the existing track bar bolt. There is a front bracket for high lifts, but it's rarely used and to describe it here would involve using words that would get this post deleted. ;-)
Nope, I still have the stock brake lines, but I am definitely at the limit. When I am at full droop, I am not getting any "pulling" on the brake lines, but I sure don't have any slack to spare either.
Well, as expected the dealership fleet manager got back to me today... NOT. Ah well, I guess I may have a surprise waiting for me when I get back from vacations.
However, I visited another dealer right by my place and they just received a book outlining changes for the upcoming year. Not much happening in the Wrangler that I could see. As someone has already pointed out, the Canyon tires are being replaced with the Ravine tires.
As far as the Rubi is concerned, the only new option I saw was a locking fuel filler cap. Woohoo. They are still going with I6 as opposed to the V6, and sadly there was no mention of a diesel...
The tires on the Jeeps with the 30" tire option are still the Goodyear Wrangler GSA's, as far as I know. (Some say that GSA stands for "Get Stuck Always")
The Rubi's have the 31" Gooodyear MTR's as the standard tire. The MTR's are mud tires, and they are supposed to be very good tires.
Canyons are the style of wheel that the Sports have had as an option for the last few years. They were part of that AAS package that got you the Dana 44 rear end, gas shocks, and 30" tires. Thelma Jane had those from the factory. Canyons are 8" wheels (width). I think they are beautiful wheels, but I was getting mine all scratched up on the trails, so I sold them and got some of those black AR767 wheels, which are only about $40 each.
I guess I haven't seen the new factory wheel that replaces the Canyons.
sound pods became std in 03'not 04'. I really like the Canyon style wheels. They're not too flashy...just right. I hope the new Ravine style looks as nice on the Wrangler.
Does anyone know what changes are being made, if any. I have heard of just some minor grill modifications and other appearance items. What will the changes look like.
Hi All. Im planning on buying a new Wrangler (Hopefully a '04) within the next week or two, and I was just wondering if anyone has got word yet on what the new August incentives will be. Are August incentives traditionally better than July, or should I get a '03 with 2.9 APR while I have the chance?? Is there anything else I should know before purchasing my first Jeep (MUST HAVE options, etc.)? Look foward to hearing from ya!!
Don't know what changes are in store for the 04's, but from all I can gather, not much. (That's good!... they haven't messed 'em up yet)
I would recommend to each of you that you read LOTS of the old posts in here. I think it would be to your benefit to do so before buying.
There's a lot of good info in here. I know there are almost 10K posts, and you might not even know enough about Jeeps to do a good "search," so don't feel bad about asking a question, but I am just saying it would be good if you could read a BUNCH of the old posts. Reading some of the posts might actually lead you to ask a good question that you would not have even though of otherwise. A Jeep purchase, like the purchase of any new vehicle, is a big investment, and it is important to know what is available and what is most appropriate for your needs.
Mjkane, my friend, it would be impossible to give good advice on the choice of models and options without knowing how you plan to use your Jeep. Give us some more info. You'll find that we all love to "talk Jeep" in here, and we freely give advice, but we need to know some things first.
I agree with Tom - it all depends on what you want to do with your Wrangler. For instance when I bought mine in '98 I got the 30" wheels and after I had signed the paperwork they handed me a sheet that said that I couldn't use chains with the larger wheels (was almost a deal-breaker but at that time I was still a "flatlander"). I have been thinking of getting a second Wrangler for a commuter vehicle, and if I do, I will NOT get the larger wheels. In fact, I might get an X with standard wheels since it would be a commuter vehicle, not an off-roader. And there is the occasional day when I would have liked to use chains on the Wrangler, along with 4x4 (like the time we more or less skated home). I would keep my '98 sport for off-roading. I'll probably get something else since the I6 engine is such a thirsty engine, and I wouldn't consider an SE with my steep uphill commute. Now if I were going to just go off-road or were a "flatlander" rather than a mountain dweller, I might look one.
Tom can give you more info if you are planning on doing significant off-roading. I do light to moderate off-roading and find my stock sport just fine for my needs. There are some places where I won't go without lockers, but that isn't really where my interests lie.
If you give us some more info, we could probably give better advice. Good luck with your decision.
Sorry that I did not welcome you sooner. Your post came in at a time when the posts were fast and furious (and I LOVE it when they are!), so I was busy responding to some of the others and completely forgot to say "hi" and "welcome" to you.
So, here goes.... HI and WELCOME!
Hey, a Rubi is NOT overkill for someone who wants to get into offroading. If you can swing it, go for it!
Just learn to wheel on the easier stuff, and always go with someone who has experience and is willing to mentor you.
You can get into some serious trouble, if you get in over your head. Remember, the Jeep, especially a Rubicon, is going to be a lot more capable than the driver at first.
Let us know how the buying is going! Don't leave us in suspense. Good luck.
I was having trouble getting the passenger's seat belt to lock when jerking on it -- driver's side seemed fine.
"geepers" suggested I try it while braking sharply -- this worked. Apparently, the belts are integrated with the braking system. The confusing part is the various levels of sensitivity. Driver's side on my Rubicon requires no braking to lock, passenger's side does.
Thanks ... much more reliable info here than at the dealer or through the DC help line.
"Apparently, the belts are integrated with the braking system."
Not directly, it only appears that way. They're actually controlled by the vehicle's deceleration. I forget which mechanism is currently used, but think of a saucer with a ball resting in the center. You can move the saucer around smoothly and the ball remains stationary. However, as soon as you jerk it in any direction the ball will move and tip the edge of the saucer down. The edge of the saucer could easily engage a latch etc. Just one of several ways to do it. The belts can also include a mechanism to lock when rapidly deployed, as with your drivers side. The only thing I would pursue further would be the discrepency of function between the two.
A friend of mine has a saying - the only thing 4x4 does is get you stuck further away from help. A Rubicon will get you stuck even further away than a stock Wrangler will. Tom's advice of going with someone else is good advice - another vehicle can tow you out (take tow straps!) when you can't make it (and don't have a winch or can't use one because there are no trees). As well as helping you get through stuff you haven't seen before.
One of the reasons I tend to stick to easy to moderate stuff is that we are usually alone. Once I got a flat tire when we were on a dirt road a good 8 miles from a (sort of) paved road and probably 15 miles from the closest "help." We were able to change it ourselves, but it sure got me thinking about getting stranded. While I have a cell phone, it doesn't work in many mountain areas, CBs are limited in range etc. All things to think about before you head off into the wilderness.
I should have done some more splainin' about the seat belt. I only knew that forward inertia figures into it locking as well as the speed at which the belt is pulled.
My biggest seat belt problem is leaving it accidently outside the door latching post that is on the door jamb and then closing the door on it. It's hard on the seat belt and I've done it enough times that I wonder if it would hold in a crash. I've also hung myself up by my belt loops and snagged a couple of jacket pockets on that post too.
Wheelin' with a backup is good advice. I ran across a picture of a couple of dessicated bodies near Death Valley. Their car broke down on a back road in the middle of summer. That was all she wrote.
Thanks to all that posted in answer to my newbie questions about the Wrangler Rubicon! Unfortunately, I have chickened out for the time being! I'm going to wait for the 2004 models that come out in a few months. I looked around at all the local dealerships and all they had were the Tombraider edition Rubicons, and the last thing I want is that embarrassing sticker/emblem on my Jeep!! But I desperately want a Jeep more and more everyday, so it's going to be sooner rather than later, that's for sure!
I have spent a lot of time going through this forum and all I can say is that it is an amazing resource and you guys have made this a really great place to visit!
Are you going to order an 04? Or, are you going to wait until they have some in the dealers' inventories in your area? I would strongly consider ordering one, if I were you. You KNOW you are getting exactly the Jeep you want that way.
Another small, but very cool thing about a factory order is that the window sticker has YOUR name on it instead of the name of the dealership.
I appreciate all the good info on seat belts ... although I didn't fully understand the mechanics behind the operation, I did know that seat belts are activated by more than just a simple jerk on the belt.
What concerned me most was the differential in sensitivity between the driver and passenger side. Still no answer and I strongly suspect the dealer has no clue. I wonder if it has anything to do with the proximity of the driver to the steering wheel/air bag?
Suffice it to say I am satisfied that ALL belts, including rear seat, work under deceleration.
Hiya. I'm a new owner of a Jeep Wrangler Sport with a Dual Top. Would appreciate any suggestions on Hard Top Hoists. Do they work? Can one person handle it? Thanks much! Sara
Easy to use, easy to buy, and even easy to make. At it's simplest, just buy four ratchet straps. At it's most expensive, an electric version for about $250. You just need a garage with a little more interior height than the Jeep.
My dealer asked me if I wanted to order an '04, but I turned him down. I'll wait to see what comes into the showrooms. I figure if I special order one, I lose all my negotiating power on the price.
Looks fine to me, though the electric version is a lot pricer than most. A 'Google' search will bring up lots of others to make comparisons with. I've never seen one that looks 'bad'. Just that some have different designs and prices.
As I understand it, if you don't buy from dealer stock, then they have to do a swap, and if other dealers don't have it, then they have to special order it. At that point, doesn't it put you at a disadvantage?
My dealer's been trying to get me to "settle" for a jeep on his lot. I could certainly do that and have the upper hand, only buying if we work out a great deal. But he now knows I want a specifically outfitted jeep, and when it becomes available, I won't get to haggle as much. Less so if I have to order it.
I have the hardtop hoist, It is a simple installation. One person can handle it with no problems. The hardest part is lowering it, make sure your doors are open or off. I made the mistake and the top scatched my doors. ( got them fixed) Just make sure your ceiling of your garage has 2" X 6" Rafter joist. They are gonna hold ALOTTA weight. Hope this helps ya, Welcome to the board keep us posted.
I have always understood that you could get a better deal by ordering from the factory. The dealer has a "sold" vehicle as soon as it comes in, and he doesn't have money tied up in a vehicle that will sit on his lot, causing him to pay interest on the money. In other words, he gets his money from you by the time he has to pay DC for the vehicle, so he does not carry any debt on that vehicle.
I don't see how your negotiating power would be any different on a factory order, unless it might be even a little better because of what I said above.
Is there going to be a trade in? If not, you have a real simple deal here... just spec out the identical Jeep at various dealers and ask for their best no trade in price. Heck, you can do that over the phone or on the Net.
The best deal you can get will probably be if you order it. Any vehicle in stock has to be paid for or financed in some way. A swap or buy in from another dealer has to be paid for. An ordered vehicle costs the dealer the same as if he ordered it for his showroom and sold it the day it came in. In other words, it's the lowest cost possible to the dealer. It's also an increase in his sales volume, and the more he sells the more discounts he's likely to be entitled to.
Just negotiate a price in relation to invoice, i.e. $50 over, $100 under or whatever you think is fair. Then you get down to the exact specification of Wrangler you want. It doesn't matter what color or equipment you want, you've already agreed the price. It'll be invoice plus, minus or whatever.
Oh, and neither of you has the upper hand. You don't have to accept the dealer's price, and the dealer doesn't have to accept your offer.
Hey...Does Angelia Jolie included in that Rubicon? I like that Rubicon edition.. You could always remove the decal if u dont want it on there. I belive that edition is a VERY limited run. might be worth it.
Hiya. Another maybe ignoramus question but here goes. So I have my jeep. And I'm trying to figure out if the cd player is multi disk. The window sticker says 'AM/FM Stereo Radio with In Dash CD Player and CD Changer Controls Included'. and it LOOKS like it should have room for 1-5 CD's. There's a mode button that, per the handbook, sounds like it could be used to load multiple cd's. So I guess my question is....what does 'CD Changer Controls' really mean? Do I have to get the CD Changer that mounts in the back??? Thanks! Sara
Hiya! (That's a cool was of saying hi, where is this from? Wisconsin?)
OK so you have 'AM/FM Stereo Radio with In Dash CD Player and CD Changer Controls?'
That means you have the radio, CD player, and CD changer "CONTROL." You have to pay close attention to these sometimes misleading claims. So basically, if it doesn't say that you have a "CD CHANGER" then you can't put in multi-CDs. You only have the CONTROLS, which means when you buy a CD CHANGER, you'll be able to switch CDs. (I have a 04 JGC, and my CD changer is in the back)
Comments
I don't doubt however that the sales folks will know something before it comes up on the DC site... and that should be soon. If he can give me any sort of concrete information I'll pass it on.
I hope he does actually get back to me as I'm taking off on vacations for a couple of weeks. I suspect I'll have plenty of messages to catch up on when I get back! :-)
Yeah, can you believe it? What happened to that guy? Well, what happened was that he went "wheelin'" for the first time, and that was all she wrote. He had so much fun and was so amazed by what his little Jeep, even though stock at the time, would do!
I sure hope the environmental extremists don't mess up the fun for everyone. Wheelin' areas around the country on public lands are threatened by the enviro [non-permissible content removed].
I have seen entire families enjoy wheelin' together. America needs clean, wholesome, outdoor activities that the entire family can do together. Lord knows that there are precious few things now a days that the whole family can truly enjoy together. It seems like family members go their own separate ways, each member having "their own thing."
At Turkey Bay, four wheelers, dirt bikes, and Jeeps all share the same trails, and I have seen little kids that appear to be no older than five or six out there on dirt bikes, riding in a group with their parents and siblings. The little ones always have a look of pride on their faces, and you can tell they are having a blast out there.
Why should someone try to take that fun away from them?
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
jenb-just a few general Jeep comments. If you get the half doors, you also get the zipper windows. I personally hated those things. Get both tops and be sure to make use of the top being off in good weather. Putting the soft top up and down is a chore though. Compared to a car for long distances, a Jeep is noisy, bouncy and wanders all over the road. It's a Jeep, I wouldn't have it any other way. No blind spots in my Jeep.
Wheelin' does have some environmental impact, and measures should be taken to be sure that the impact is minimized, that it is confined to the designated area itself, and that it does not effect the surrounding area.
I believe in "carrying out" what I "carry in." Heck, I even stop to pick up other people's trash, so I carry out MORE than I carry in.
I stay on the designated trails, so as not to cause erosion or damage to plant life in new areas.
Wheelin' can be a good way to teach kids to respect the environment.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Yeah, Trey, on a BAD month, I only get to go two or three times. I like to go EVERY weekend.
I definitley love it, and I know you do too. Most people just can't go as often as I do. I am fortunate to have weekends free and to have a great place like Turkey Bay only 70 miles away.
I might give airing down a try, but they don't have a compressor at TB, and you have to drive about 20 miles to get to the nearest gas station to air back up. Guess that's not really a problem as long as I don't go too low on the pressure when I air down.
The only time I ever tried airing down was at Superlift ORV Park in Arkansas, but I had no basis for comparison. I had not run the same trails "aired up," so I had no way of knowing how much it helped to air down.
I was stubborn about disconnecting the front sway bar when I first started wheelin', but when I finally did, MAN WHAT A DIFFERENCE! So maybe I will come to realize the benefit of airing down some day.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Certainly my http://www.muttslinger.com/ post makes up for that blunder?
-twylie
How easy is it to add a lift to a Jeep? Is it something you have to have specialized tools for and is it something you can do yourself?
-Paul
When you put your ARB locker in the front, you can use the compressor to "air up" when you're done wheelin. That's what I've been doing.
dewars
Heh, sounds like what I'll be doing on my upcoming hike. Hopefully won't have to carry out everything if you know what I mean (and sure as heck not picking up after others!)... ;-p
Now, I am no enviro-[non-permissible content removed] but I think that there is a need for balance. Designated areas should be usable for whatever purpose they were designated for. People utilizing such areas should take care of it (like what you do). It allows for outdoor activities that can be enjoyed by families, or individuals, as they please.
At the same time there is a lack of pristine, or true, wilderness that should be left alone to minimize impact on the wildlife. We have some large national parks in the rockies here and I am glad that access to some parts is somewhat restricted. Tourist, commercial, and recreational industry is always fighting to expand into these areas, typically with adverse effects on the environment - it's a quick buck mentality. There is beauty and mystery in them dark and unknown woods... and it should be left alone to be admired by future generations.
Anyway, that's just my $.02 (less after conversion)...
Another suspension lift is longer coil springs, a little more money than the spacers, but worth it if you can swing it. Basically the same type of installation as the spacer lift. You've got to jack up the Jeep by the frame and let the wheel hang and pull out the old spring and insert the new longer one (I'm simplifying of course) and you may have to disconnect the sway bar to let the axle hang low enough to get the springs out/in. This is where that $10 spring compressor came in handy, it compressed the front springs enough to make it easy to pop out and you could compress the new spring to fit it in easier.
I also did a 2 inch body lift that was much more difficult and I wouldn't recommend doing it if you can get enough of a lift from a suspension lift. It was a pain in the neck. You basically have to unbolt the body from the frame and insert 2" spacers at all those points. But, you then have to install brackets to lower the radiator, a spacer for the steering linkage, extend the gas filler and vent tubes and a spacer bracket for the transfer case shift linkage (which you have to loosen and recalibrate to shift the full range).
Things to keep in mind, too much suspension lift will create too much of an angle for the read drive line and cause vibrations and stress on the u-joints. I think a 2" lift is okay, but after that you might have a problem. Some people drop their transfer case to compensate for the lift, but then you'll loose that precious ground clearance in the center. Will you be off-roading? If so, don't drop the t-case, there's other alternatives. Another concern is body lifts, they may provide the weight of the body just enough extra leverage to tear the embedded nuts out of the body at the mounting points. I may be heading that way with my 2" lift, but some say it's the 3" lift that will get you.
Of course you can combine all these styles of lifts, longer springs plus spacers and a small body lift, but then you'll have to look at that driveline angle and track bar adjustments.
I'm sure I missed a few points, but I'm sure some of the veterans on this board can chime in.
-Pete
As Pete said, you should be careful about body lifts, because the longer the distance between the body and the frame, the more stress (leverage)is placed on the bolts and on the metal where the bolts attach to the body as the body twists or leans in corners. Pete has a two inch body lift, and it may work out fine, but LOTS and LOTS of people warn against going over one inch on body lifts.
One of the good things about body lifts is that they do not effect drive line angle. Your transfer case yoke and the yoke on the rear differential are in the same positions relative to one another after a body lift as they were before.
A spacer lift has the advantage of being cheaper than a lift that involves longer springs. A spacer lift does not contribute anything toward addtional flex, however, as would a lift with longer springs.
A suspension lift, whether spacers or longer springs, will change the drive line angle. As long as you are going no higher than a two inch lift by either spacers or springs, you should have no problem with vibrations. Above two inches, though, you begin to get high enough that there might be vibrations.
The problem is that the transfer case goes up with the suspension, but the differential does not go up accordingly. This means that you have increased the angle between the yoke of the t-case and the yoke on the differential, which, in turn, causes the U-joints to have to operate outside of their designed angle range. Vibrations in the drive train are often the result of this.
The cheapest way to overcome this problem is to get a transfer case drop kit to lower the transfer case back to its orginal position (or back in that direction, at least).
The problem there is that you have given up the extra clearance at the transfer case that the lift gave you. You can still get the bigger tires that you wanted, though, which might have been you main objective for the lift to start with.
A couple other things to contend with above two inches of suspension lift are the brake lines and the trac bar. It will almost certainly be necessary to extend your brake lines to allow the extra wheel travel that you will be getting. I have a two inch lift, and I am definitely at the limit of my stock brake lines.
Another thing above two inhces is that the trac bar will most likely have to be relocated. The trac bar mounts to the frame on one end and to the axle on the other end. It's what keeps your axle centered under the vehicle. As you raise the frame via the lift intsallation, this will pull the axle to the side where the trac bar is attached to the frame. You will have one tire sticking out farther than the one on other side. To recenter the axle, you will need a trac bar relocation bracket, which would normally be included in the lift kit. I have heard that these things can be a bear to install.
This pic shows what is meant by "flex." Notice how nice and level the bumper is, but look at the angle of the front and back axles. You really can't see the rear axle, but from the position of the back tires, you can tell what the angle the of the axle must be. It's also obvious from this pic why you might need longer brake lines and longer shocks to allow for the extra axle droop.
The front sway bar is disconnected, which allows much more axle travel or "flex." The reason flex is good is that it keeps your tires in contact with the ground for traction as you go through unlevel places. Obviously, there are limits to that, and even with good flex, you will lift a tire sometimes, if you get into the "fun" stuff.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Airing down is just as much a part of vehicle preparation as disconnecting the front sway bar or selecting low range. You then develop your skill in determining the correct pressure to match the terrain. The 'Truck Air' 12v compressor is probably the best low end bang for the buck at around $40. I've even seen it at K-Mart.
Finally, it's the rear track bar that usually gets a relocation bracket. It's a piece of cake to fit if approached correctly, virtually impossible if not. At the front the ideal solution is an adjustable bar. The most economic solution is to drill new holes for the existing track bar bolt. There is a front bracket for high lifts, but it's rarely used and to describe it here would involve using words that would get this post deleted.
;-)
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
However, I visited another dealer right by my place and they just received a book outlining changes for the upcoming year. Not much happening in the Wrangler that I could see. As someone has already pointed out, the Canyon tires are being replaced with the Ravine tires.
As far as the Rubi is concerned, the only new option I saw was a locking fuel filler cap. Woohoo. They are still going with I6 as opposed to the V6, and sadly there was no mention of a diesel...
One thing I saw with the 04s is that the sound bar is replaced by sound pods.
-Mike
The Rubi's have the 31" Gooodyear MTR's as the standard tire. The MTR's are mud tires, and they are supposed to be very good tires.
Canyons are the style of wheel that the Sports have had as an option for the last few years. They were part of that AAS package that got you the Dana 44 rear end, gas shocks, and 30" tires. Thelma Jane had those from the factory. Canyons are 8" wheels (width). I think they are beautiful wheels, but I was getting mine all scratched up on the trails, so I sold them and got some of those black AR767 wheels, which are only about $40 each.
I guess I haven't seen the new factory wheel that replaces the Canyons.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
embeeduece, I thought that the sound pods were standard in the 03's... every Rubi I saw came with the sound pods.
Stephen
As for the when the 04s come out, maybe a good indicator is when the 03s hit showrooms. Anyone remember when that was?
-Mike
Don't know what changes are in store for the 04's, but from all I can gather, not much. (That's good!... they haven't messed 'em up yet)
I would recommend to each of you that you read LOTS of the old posts in here. I think it would be to your benefit to do so before buying.
There's a lot of good info in here. I know there are almost 10K posts, and you might not even know enough about Jeeps to do a good "search," so don't feel bad about asking a question, but I am just saying it would be good if you could read a BUNCH of the old posts. Reading some of the posts might actually lead you to ask a good question that you would not have even though of otherwise. A Jeep purchase, like the purchase of any new vehicle, is a big investment, and it is important to know what is available and what is most appropriate for your needs.
Mjkane, my friend, it would be impossible to give good advice on the choice of models and options without knowing how you plan to use your Jeep. Give us some more info. You'll find that we all love to "talk Jeep" in here, and we freely give advice, but we need to know some things first.
Once again, welcome to both of you.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Tom can give you more info if you are planning on doing significant off-roading. I do light to moderate off-roading and find my stock sport just fine for my needs. There are some places where I won't go without lockers, but that isn't really where my interests lie.
If you give us some more info, we could probably give better advice. Good luck with your decision.
So, here goes.... HI and WELCOME!
Hey, a Rubi is NOT overkill for someone who wants to get into offroading. If you can swing it, go for it!
Just learn to wheel on the easier stuff, and always go with someone who has experience and is willing to mentor you.
You can get into some serious trouble, if you get in over your head. Remember, the Jeep, especially a Rubicon, is going to be a lot more capable than the driver at first.
Let us know how the buying is going! Don't leave us in suspense. Good luck.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
I was having trouble getting the passenger's seat belt to lock when jerking on it -- driver's side seemed fine.
"geepers" suggested I try it while braking sharply -- this worked. Apparently, the belts are integrated with the braking system. The confusing part is the various levels of sensitivity. Driver's side on my Rubicon requires no braking to lock, passenger's side does.
Thanks ... much more reliable info here than at the dealer or through the DC help line.
2003 Rubicon, armor, jks discos
Not directly, it only appears that way. They're actually controlled by the vehicle's deceleration. I forget which mechanism is currently used, but think of a saucer with a ball resting in the center. You can move the saucer around smoothly and the ball remains stationary. However, as soon as you jerk it in any direction the ball will move and tip the edge of the saucer down. The edge of the saucer could easily engage a latch etc. Just one of several ways to do it. The belts can also include a mechanism to lock when rapidly deployed, as with your drivers side. The only thing I would pursue further would be the discrepency of function between the two.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/seatbelt3.htm
also some good info on the page following this one on active pretensioners that are used in high end autos.
-twylie
One of the reasons I tend to stick to easy to moderate stuff is that we are usually alone. Once I got a flat tire when we were on a dirt road a good 8 miles from a (sort of) paved road and probably 15 miles from the closest "help." We were able to change it ourselves, but it sure got me thinking about getting stranded. While I have a cell phone, it doesn't work in many mountain areas, CBs are limited in range etc. All things to think about before you head off into the wilderness.
My biggest seat belt problem is leaving it accidently outside the door latching post that is on the door jamb and then closing the door on it. It's hard on the seat belt and I've done it enough times that I wonder if it would hold in a crash. I've also hung myself up by my belt loops and snagged a couple of jacket pockets on that post too.
Wheelin' with a backup is good advice. I ran across a picture of a couple of dessicated bodies near Death Valley. Their car broke down on a back road in the middle of summer. That was all she wrote.
I have spent a lot of time going through this forum and all I can say is that it is an amazing resource and you guys have made this a really great place to visit!
jb
Another small, but very cool thing about a factory order is that the window sticker has YOUR name on it instead of the name of the dealership.
Good luck.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
What concerned me most was the differential in sensitivity between the driver and passenger side. Still no answer and I strongly suspect the dealer has no clue. I wonder if it has anything to do with the proximity of the driver to the steering wheel/air bag?
Suffice it to say I am satisfied that ALL belts, including rear seat, work under deceleration.
Thanks again to all who responded.
2003 Rubicon, armor, jks discos
http://www.removabletops.com/cars/jeep_wrangler.html
Thanks muchly!
Sara
-Mike
You normally negotiate the price and then the order is placed.
My dealer's been trying to get me to "settle" for a jeep on his lot. I could certainly do that and have the upper hand, only buying if we work out a great deal. But he now knows I want a specifically outfitted jeep, and when it becomes available, I won't get to haggle as much. Less so if I have to order it.
Just make sure your ceiling of your garage has 2" X 6" Rafter joist. They are gonna hold ALOTTA weight.
Hope this helps ya, Welcome to the board keep us posted.
Keep JEEPIN
BAMA!!
32 days till FOOTBALL season!!
I don't see how your negotiating power would be any different on a factory order, unless it might be even a little better because of what I said above.
Is there going to be a trade in? If not, you have a real simple deal here... just spec out the identical Jeep at various dealers and ask for their best no trade in price. Heck, you can do that over the phone or on the Net.
Tom
Have you hugged your Jeep today?
Just negotiate a price in relation to invoice, i.e. $50 over, $100 under or whatever you think is fair. Then you get down to the exact specification of Wrangler you want. It doesn't matter what color or equipment you want, you've already agreed the price. It'll be invoice plus, minus or whatever.
Oh, and neither of you has the upper hand. You don't have to accept the dealer's price, and the dealer doesn't have to accept your offer.
I like that Rubicon edition.. You could always remove the decal if u dont want it on there.
I belive that edition is a VERY limited run.
might be worth it.
my .02 worth
BAMA
Included'. and it LOOKS like it should have room for 1-5 CD's. There's a mode button that, per the handbook, sounds like it could be used to load multiple cd's. So I guess my question is....what does 'CD Changer Controls' really mean? Do I have to get the CD Changer that mounts in the back??? Thanks! Sara
OK so you have 'AM/FM Stereo Radio with In Dash CD Player and CD Changer Controls?'
That means you have the radio, CD player, and CD changer "CONTROL." You have to pay close attention to these sometimes misleading claims. So basically, if it doesn't say that you have a "CD CHANGER" then you can't put in multi-CDs. You only have the CONTROLS, which means when you buy a CD CHANGER, you'll be able to switch CDs.
(I have a 04 JGC, and my CD changer is in the back)
Does this help?
Although, I do want to physically see what the new Ravine wheels look like.
-Mike