The miles are 74,000. I do need to be careful with a 996 though, because of the dreaded IMS bearing failure. Since the clutch is vibrating, we'll need a clutch ($1950) and with the car all apart, it would be folly not to replace the IMS bearing with the new and improved ceramanic one. So I'm in $4000 bucks right there. I know it and the owner knows it, so I'm not budgin'.
Oddly enough, it has been my experience that a Porsche costs no more to repair than a Mini Cooper (Mini clutch $2250) in 95% of cases.
I hope all the folks paying more at auction understand the risks on the 996. I sure do, as much as I like 'em. I'm just getting seduced by the color and options.
I just missed a 2000 coupe with tiptronic that was a really nice car at a good price---I just hesitated and BOOM it was gone. I wasn't sure about the TIP.
I'm not really a convertible kind o' guy, so the hardtop option appeals. Now and then I like the top down but you could count the times i'd do that on two monkeys hands and feet.
@qbrozen said:
how many miles, shifty? I think you said in the other discussion. Those at auction are going for quite a bit more than you want to pay, so my guess is you'd never come together on price.
well I can tell you that the one tiptronic I see fetched way less than the manuals. It went for $16k with under 69k miles.
I don't think most of the dealers buying them at auction care about the IMS. They are buying and selling a Porsche. They'll let the next owner worry about any inherent faults, just as long as they aren't broken at present.
Here is the rundown (I have no idea what the "P" is for transmission on the Atlanta one, but I'm assuming its a stick based on the other data.
Yeah, the TIP I saw was I think asking $18K. Well, the IMS is worth worrying about--if it fails you're in for an $18,000 engine overhaul--basically, that bearing failure totals the car.
this is a serious issue for used Porsche 996 buyers (and Boxster buyers---same deal).
and heck, as long as the issue is know, like Shifty just factor it into the price. Budget the $4,000 or whatever to do the job (clutch/IMS), and while it is apart do everything else wear wise that makes sens ("while you are in there") can end up with a like-new car.
It's kind of my style to car search this way. I circle around the target. First we start with the primitive:
"MAN WANT PORSCHE NOW"
"what kind of porsche does man want?"
MAN NOT KNOW
"well maybe man needs to think about this"
MAN LIKE THAT ONE! (points)
"yes but do you really need a convertible and AWD"
MAN NEED TO THINK MORE...
Actually if that car had been a RWD blue coupe 6 speed manual with tan leather and a really good PPI, we wouldn't even be having this conversation I don't think.
I just can't stand silver cars anymore. I can't do it. It's just me.
Next punch is for my wife. She works less than 3 miles from home. So we can lease something for her with reasonable mileage terms (12K per year as opposed to the 20K + I drive). I'm going to take the Pilot as my daily driver (15K per year), drive the Prelude more during the warm weather (5K per year), and take the new car when she needs to transport all 3 kids on any given day. On those days, she'd use the Pilot.
Our boys will be in school together all day. Wife will either have the 2 of them in the new car or our daughter. This is part of the problem. For a lot less than the $572 per month I pay for my 328xi, an Accord LX, Civic EX or equivalent would suit our needs perfectly. I'm kinda brand snobby I guess. I'd be willing to lease an LX Accord or Civic. If I'm looking at an Altima, make it an SV. Sonata, I'll look at a turbo. I'm definitely going to look at a Legacy & Forester as well.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
shifty, I'm certainly with you. the inherent problems (which you've warned me about for years) are what has kept me away from the 911. But if I ever took the plunge, no way in hell would I bet getting a vert, tip, or silver. I'd only settle for AWD if the car was perfect otherwise and a good price.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Nix the Civic right now...no way in hell that you'll be happy in it! Mine worked well for me because 90% of the time, it was just me in it and I'd still have it honestly if my spinal issues had not gotten worse...it was just too painful to get in and out! But without that major issue, it would still be in our garage.
But you're a different story here. Going from a 3 Series to a Civic? No frickin' way and even if your wife won't hate it, after awhile, you sure will. And with the little ones, the lack of useable space is a no brainer! No, stick with a mid sizer or a small CUV on this next purchase...you'll regret anything else within minutes of driving it home!!!
The Sandman
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
"I think that's the difference between what you need, and what you want."
What I need: Air Conditioning, some form of automatic transmission, & front wheel drive, Bluetooth, decent acceleration, & backup camera
What I want: AWD, heated seats, sun roof, leather, upgraded radio, strong acceleration,
nyccarguy , If you don't get what you want, you will be counting the months until you change it out. Analyse your wants and work your budget from there. You know the drill. Sedan or suv ? Size ? The AWD and heated seats seem the most important on your list. If I were shopping now the CRV EX-L would be on top of my personal list.
Reach out to the Porsche Doc , he will help you with any questions on the 2001 996. My friend had alot of problems with his used 996 and this guy knows his stuff..
Porsche Doc
Super Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Overland Park, KS
Posts: 3,552
996 Buyers Guide
There have been a lot of members lately asking the same basic questions pertaining to buying a 911. I have decided to create a buyers guideline for the 911 models to help answer a lot of the questions that are being asked. I will edit it as needed, and also add sections for 993, 964, 930s, etc as I have time. Hopefully this will alleviate the same questions from being asked on the board. Note, I will not include any financial information as far as purchasing prices, etc. It is quite easy to track how cars are selling on your own, and each region of the country/countries will vary anyway.
Pre Purchase Inspection: I can not recommend a PPI enough, unless you are a professional Porsche mechanic. Typically they run from $150-300, and is money well spent. A good PPI will include a printed document that covers inspection of all aspects of the vehicle. They will look for a lot of issues that I will talk about later. Typically the potential buyer will pay for the PPI. This information is solely for the buyer, and the seller should not have access to this information, since he did not pay for the inspection. Make sure you discuss this with the person inspecting the car, so that there are no misunderstandings.
Porsche 996: The 996 version of the Porsche 911 ran from 1999-2005. It was produced in a C2, C4, C4S, as well as the Twin Turbo package.
Upkeep: Every one will experience different labor rates depending on which dealer or independent mechanic you have your car serviced at. Some dealers are quite affordable, while others will charge $250 for an oil change. This will all depend on your area. A good independent Porsche mechanic can save you a lot of money. Make sure you budget maintenance into your overall purchase price of the vehicle. Also, keep in mind that a major failure with a Porsche can cost you a LOT of money, so you may want to look into aftermarket warranties, or Porsche certified vehicles which still have a warranty remaining.
Some of the more common failure/maintenance points:
Rear Main Seal: The C2 and C4 engine is prone to rear main seal leaks. While the internet makes it seem like a huge deal, it is not as common as one might think. It is definitely something to look for when purchasing a 996 though. Cost of replacement can typically run upwards of $1500 since you replace the clutch while you are in there. The updated seal used is a 997 part number. Typically, if the engine does not show a leak at the RMS by 15k miles, then it will not likely occur. The RMS issue does not exist in the turbos, as the engine is the traditional flat six, split case design. I am sure they still occur on occasion, but not nearly as often. When should you replace the seal? When the oil drips on the driveway start to annoy your wife. Will it hurt anything? No, but a severe leak will obviously lead to decreased oil in the engine over time, and could lead to engine failure if you do not add the oil it is losing.
Clutch: Typically clutch life will be around 50-60k miles. This will all depend on the driver of the vehicle though. I have seen clutches go out around 30k miles, and some cars with 70k miles on the original clutch. Cost to replace is roughly $1500 for C2/4. For the turbo, expect around $2500-3000 due to twice the labor rate (18 hours), and a more expensive clutch.
Stiff Clutch Pedal: Typically a very stiff clutch pedal in the C2/4 is indicative of a bad throw out bearing guide arm. There is an updated arm and release bearing which will alleviate this problem. Again, you are looking in that $1500-1600 range to have it replaced.
Tires: Porsche put quite a bit of negative camber and resultant toe into the rear suspension, and along with the weight of the engine being over the rear tires, tire life is much shorter than a standard car. Typically 15k-20k miles out of a set of rear tires is doing very well. Due to the negative camber/toe, the insides will wear out first, while the outside tread will still look good. Front tires will last longer, and typically you will get twice the life of the fronts versus the rears. You can realign the car to a more neutral toe setting in the rear and extend the life a bit.
Brakes: At roughly 30-40k miles you will probably need at least brake pads in the front. They wear almost twice as fast as the rear pads, so typically you can get a set of rears to last per 2 sets of front pads. At 60k miles, expect to replace the rotors at all corners. To replace everything front and back, expect around a $1200 bill.
Oil Changes: Typically the engines will use a Mobil 1 0w-40, 5w-40, or castrol 5w-40 full synthetic oil. Usually it will take roughly 8.5 quarts of oil, and a paper cartridge oil filter (Mahle #OC128). Some dealers will charge $60, some will charge $250 or more!.
Tune-ups: Tune ups are done every 15k miles, with major services done at 30k, 60k, and 90k miles. Minor services can range from $500 for an oil change, pollen filter change, air filter change, and inspection of the vehicle. A major service will include the aforementioned, along with spark plugs, and a much more thorough inspection of every aspect of the car. A major service can easily run over $1200.
Engine: Intermediate shaft failure. I like to call this catastrophic engine failure, because it typically will require a new engine. Some of the C2/4's have had serious failure due to the intermediate shaft failure. Is it all that common? Not really, but it still does occur on occasion. This is where a warranty will save you, as it will typically run well over $10k for a rebuilt engine to be put in the car. Porsche dealers do not even try and fix the engine, they are boxed up and sent back to Germany where they are inspected. Porsche will install a remanufactured engine which should not suffer the same fate. Having talked to some dealer techs recently (as an independent, I have only seen 1 or 2 failures in the last 5 years), the techs have told me that Porsche has replaced a lot of engines that could have been easily repaired at the dealer. There is a fix to the intermediate shaft issue if it is caught early enough. If you hear the engine making an odd ticking at start up (something you don't normally hear), and you shut it down, chances are the IMS can be repaired. Porsche wanted to be known as having great customer service, so they decided replacing the engine was far better for that. Unfortunately for a dealer tech, you get paid more to repair items, than to replace items under a warranty/good faith type claim. UPDATE: LN engineering has come out with a bearing replacement/upgrade kit for these motors. Recent evidence is suggesting that the failure is happening to LOW mileage cars that are not driven enough. Condensation builds up in the oil, seeps past the IMS bearing seal, and erodes the bearing internally. The higher mileage cars are not seeming to be affected by this at all. I recently pulled a bearing out of a 100k mile 996, and it was like new. LN has a ceramic bearing which does not use an outer seal which allows oil to flow freely through the bearing to keep it lubricated and prevent erosion.
Wheel Bearings: I have replaced quite a few wheel bearings now in the 996/boxsters. The sealed bearing will start to growl, like excessive road noise or cupped tires when they go. Since they are a 2 piece sealed system, they will not exhibit typical bearing play in the wheel. Not a huge deal, but it does happen.
996TT: Since a lot of people have started asking about 996TT issues, I will add them to the list:
996TT: Since a lot of people have started asking about 996TT issues, I will add them to the list:
Maintenance/Common Failures:
Oil Changes: Similar to the 996 in quantity and oil viscosity. 4 drain plugs, one on the engine case, one on the reservoir, and one on each turbo.
Wheel Bearings: (see above)
Clutch Hydraulic Accumulator: When this little gem fails, the clutch pedal becomes very stiff when the car is turned off (ie, you will notice it when starting the car), or the pedal starts to become notchy. The accumulator sits on the clutch slave cylinder and is about $150, and maybe 1.5 hours to replace.
Tune ups: Same service intervals of every 15k miles, though every 30k miles the spark plugs need to be changed. This is about a 5-6 billable hour job as it requires removal of the rear bumper and intercoolers.
Diverter Valves: If you haven't changed them yet, you will. Symptoms are lower boost than normal. The rubber diaphragm in the valves will fail. My advice is to upgrade the 2 units to billet aftermarket units that will not fail. They run about $150 each, and about 1.5 hours to install.
You could read his whole reviews from tires to tune ups. @ German auto forums
I'm thinking along those lines also. We've got the Pilot to haul all 5 of us and our gear around. We just need another car for my wife to commute in/run local errands. Part of my slippery slope. I could go Civic/Elantra/Jetta:)
It doesn't matter what I lease, I'll be counting the months anyway:) Definitely sedan. I could go compact because today's compact sedans are as big as mid sizers were 20 years ago. AWD is important, but again, I drove around with snow shoes on my Prelude for 9 years and NEVER got stuck.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Chrysler put on program last week in the parking lot of our office comparing the new 200 to the Accord, Camry, Fusion, Malibu and Sonata. There must of been 20 vehicles there and about 40 folks and they were test driving for about 6 or so hours. Must admit that the 200 looked pretty good in all their different colors. They had a set route and we kept seeing the vehicles driving around. Sure would've enjoyed being in that focus group!
The Sandman
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
Great info Brian--and thanks for posting. Most of his info is right on.
Just my two cents, but I do not agree with him that IMS bearing failure is uncommon, nor do I agree that one can adequately rebuild that engine for a mere $10,000.
I'm better off than most folks in that I have excellent Porsche connections and resources.
A PPI is a good idea for any complex, expensive used car because of what I call the "accelerating inverse ratio"----which means that while the resale value of late model luxury cars goes down, the repair costs on them keeps going up (higher labor rates).
When you are buying used, out-of-warranty luxury or performance cars, you are walking on a lake with a thin layer of ice. You have to know what you're doing.
Interesting note about the Passat TDI. A TDI SE w/ Sunroof in my zip code has a TMV of $1015 under invoice. According to my calculations (Michaell & kyfdx's help and lease guide's calculator), If I could get one for $2K under invoice which should be possible, my payment including 6.35% tax would be just at $300 per month. Maybe I'll start test driving next week. I did after all get my "Your lease is up in 90 days" letter from BMW.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
@laurasdada said:
For those that may be interested ("Anyone, anyone. Buehler, Buehler?"), there is a Caddy dealer in the Boston area advertising $15k off MSRP of all their ELRs. Let the stampede begin.
Yeah, I am ALL over the place with this. My biggest problem is that I'm researching the "best deal" instead of "the right car." It is a slippery slope. I look at the Passat TDI, what I think it will lease for, then I start to check out other sedans in the category. "Oh wow, X has a really high resdiual & a low mf." Or I think to myself: "Well, if I'm willing to go with a front driver & snow tires, then I might as well go for something like a Civic." "Can I live with a base model Forester with wheel covers for 3 years?" I should stick with something semi-cool (in the car geek world anyway) just in case I really like it and want to buy it out when the lease is up. At that point, I'll have a very nice used car with only 36K miles that I'll know who the previous owner is. The Passat TDI is cool (the diesel factor), I like the Buick Regal AWD. Even the $31k sticker "base" model has tons of features plus a very sophisticated Haldex AWD system and a turbo 4. Oh wait, for the price of a Passat TDI or Buick Regal AWD, I might be able to get a Forrester XT:)-
I've done the "best deal" route before... it never works.
The trick is finding the balance between what you really want and what's a decent deal within your budget.
That's (sorta) how I ended up with the Q50 Hybrid instead of a Tesla.
@nyccarguy said:
Interesting note about the Passat TDI. A TDI SE w/ Sunroof in my zip code has a TMV of $1015 under invoice. According to my calculations (Michaell & kyfdx's help and lease guide's calculator), If I could get one for $2K under invoice which should be possible, my payment including 6.35% tax would be just at $300 per month. Maybe I'll start test driving next week. I did after all get my "Your lease is up in 90 days" letter from BMW.
Hey bud
Check out these 2 VW dealerships. Doc fee's in NY are only 75 dollars. Schenecttady NY area.
You may get close to that 2k mark with one of these dealerships. Make sure you let each dealership know your in talks with both of them and first best price gets your business.
Fuccillo
Martin Nemer VW
I have a good VW dealer in NJ if you want to travel that far. doc's are 299 at NJ dealership.
I'll be sur to check those out. Thanks for the leads. I actually helped a friend lease a Tiguan from Platinum VW on Long Island. They are a small dealership that sells big volumes. They were great to work with and I got my friend a great price. I'll start here in Stamford and work my way out (Westchester, Long Island, Rockland, NJ if I have to).
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
It's actually not that far from me. 50 minutes. My in-laws live in Hicksville. I'd definitely go to LI before NJ. Another benefit to buying/leasing in NY besides the capped doc fee is that all leasing & finance contracts written in NY state include GAP insurance.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
A reporter is fascinated by this longstanding discussion and has read a lot of posts here. This reporter would like to speak to a chronic car-shopper - one of your guys or gals. If this is you, and you'd like to share your story, please send your daytime contact info to pr@edmunds.com no later than 5 p.m. PT/8 p.m. ET on Monday, June 16, 2014.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
@nyccarguy said:
Interesting note about the Passat TDI. A TDI SE w/ Sunroof in my zip code has a TMV of $1015 under invoice. According to my calculations (Michaell & kyfdx's help and lease guide's calculator), If I could get one for $2K under invoice which should be possible, my payment including 6.35% tax would be just at $300 per month. Maybe I'll start test driving next week. I did after all get my "Your lease is up in 90 days" letter from BMW.
When I was dealing on my Passat Wolfsburg, the offer on the TDI w/sunroof was right at $300 including taxes, so clearly that's very doable.
That Passat Sport model is sharp, but nyc and I are in agreement that we find the 18" Bristol wheels preferable over those 19" Sport wheels. Even with that, I'd consider the Sport model for the seats alone - the black roof is kinda cool too. But you do give up the sunroof for those features. For about the price of that sport model, you could get a sun & nav model.
@Kirstie_H said:
A reporter is fascinated by this longstanding discussion and has read a lot of posts here. This reporter would like to speak to a chronic car-shopper - one of your guys or gals. If this is you, and you'd like to share your story, please send your daytime contact info to pr@edmunds.com no later than 5 p.m. PT/8 p.m. ET on Monday, June 16, 2014.
You should emphasize the A in CCBA.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
@Kirstie_H said:
A reporter is fascinated by this longstanding discussion and has read a lot of posts here. This reporter would like to speak to a chronic car-shopper - one of your guys or gals. If this is you, and you'd like to share your story, please send your daytime contact info to pr@edmunds.com no later than 5 p.m. PT/8 p.m. ET on Monday, June 16, 2014.
Paging breld... paging breld!!!
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
the offer on the TDI w/sunroof was right at $300 including taxes, so clearly that's very doable.
Could you give me a little more detail on that? Is that one of the "sign and drive" events, with nothing paid up front except for the first month's payment? And I'm assuming 36 mos / 36k miles as well?
The 1.8L in the A3 is 170HP \ 200TQ - the 2.0 is 220HP \ 258TQ.
I own a 2008 Passat with the 2.0T engine, and I've driven a new Passat with the 1.8T. There is a noticeable difference, enough so that I would not be happy replacing my old model with a new one. I'm not sure what they were thinking here, but I'll bet this had something to do with their declining market share here in North America.
The way I read it was that VW was making the Passat in a more "American" flavor. That meant decontenting to many people, but you can't really argue with how well sales have gone.
@henryn said:
Could you give me a little more detail on that? Is that one of the "sign and drive" events, with nothing paid up front except for the first month's payment? And I'm assuming 36 mos / 36k miles as well?
VW has een kown to make the sign and drive --- 42 mos. Gets you out of the warranty. They will adjust the lease to 36 mos at a slightly higher payment.
Well, this was back in early January during their "sign & drive" event. I didn't get into the particulars of that particular deal since I went with a different model, but yes, it was nothing down up front (no down, no deposit, no first payment), 42 months, 12k miles/year. Right around $300/month including taxes (about 8.5% where I'm at!).
When I joined edmunds in 05 I thought I had a problem, buying cars in 05, 06, 08, 09, 11, 12 & 13. But with @breld joining the group, I now realize I simply brought the proverbial knife to a gun fight. Thanks to breld for the liberating therapy. And congrats on that 5er.
thinking with the 1.8? Mostly that it was a vastly better entry level motor than the 2.5l 5 cylinder. Compared to that engine, it is quicker, smoother, and way better MPG. and important to family buyers, uses RUG.
they have 2 upgrade engines if the 1.8 isn't enough for you.
I'm a big fan of that 1.8T - of the reasons I moved on to the 535i, the engine was not one of them by any means. I did start getting used to putting it in sport mode, which provided a quicker response with the throttle. I thought the acceleration was pretty darn good, considering the payoff in gas mileage.
The TDI does seem to be the fan favorite among buyers - besides the extra torque and MPG, it adds a character to the car that isn't found otherwise in that segment (at least until Mazda gets their act together). Funny enough, it seems to me the 6-cyl is the least desirable (just from what I notice on the road).
nyccarguy will surely provide some great insight as he test drives both engines in the Passat.
Comments
The miles are 74,000. I do need to be careful with a 996 though, because of the dreaded IMS bearing failure. Since the clutch is vibrating, we'll need a clutch ($1950) and with the car all apart, it would be folly not to replace the IMS bearing with the new and improved ceramanic one. So I'm in $4000 bucks right there. I know it and the owner knows it, so I'm not budgin'.
Oddly enough, it has been my experience that a Porsche costs no more to repair than a Mini Cooper (Mini clutch $2250) in 95% of cases.
I hope all the folks paying more at auction understand the risks on the 996. I sure do, as much as I like 'em. I'm just getting seduced by the color and options.
I just missed a 2000 coupe with tiptronic that was a really nice car at a good price---I just hesitated and BOOM it was gone. I wasn't sure about the TIP.
I'm not really a convertible kind o' guy, so the hardtop option appeals. Now and then I like the top down but you could count the times i'd do that on two monkeys hands and feet.
well I can tell you that the one tiptronic I see fetched way less than the manuals. It went for $16k with under 69k miles.
I don't think most of the dealers buying them at auction care about the IMS. They are buying and selling a Porsche. They'll let the next owner worry about any inherent faults, just as long as they aren't broken at present.
Here is the rundown (I have no idea what the "P" is for transmission on the Atlanta one, but I'm assuming its a stick based on the other data.
03/06/14 PALM BCH Regular $21,000 47,531 Avg SILVER 6G 6 Yes
12/05/13 CINCINNA Regular $19,000 53,571 Avg SILVER 6G 6 Yes
03/13/14 TX HOBBY Regular $15,950 68,707 Avg SILVER 6G A Yes
05/22/14 ATLANTA Regular $18,000 84,479 Avg PURPLE 6G P Yes
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Yeah, the TIP I saw was I think asking $18K. Well, the IMS is worth worrying about--if it fails you're in for an $18,000 engine overhaul--basically, that bearing failure totals the car.
this is a serious issue for used Porsche 996 buyers (and Boxster buyers---same deal).
I assume P is for PDK (dual clutch)>
and heck, as long as the issue is know, like Shifty just factor it into the price. Budget the $4,000 or whatever to do the job (clutch/IMS), and while it is apart do everything else wear wise that makes sens ("while you are in there") can end up with a like-new car.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
We'll see. There's a written PPI report that spells everything out so it's not like the seller is badly informed.
Wait for a coupe, RWD with stick.. just sayin'
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it does seem odd to get all the drawbacks of a convertible, if you don't care about being able to put the top down.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
It's kind of my style to car search this way. I circle around the target. First we start with the primitive:
"MAN WANT PORSCHE NOW"
"what kind of porsche does man want?"
MAN NOT KNOW
"well maybe man needs to think about this"
MAN LIKE THAT ONE! (points)
"yes but do you really need a convertible and AWD"
MAN NEED TO THINK MORE...
Actually if that car had been a RWD blue coupe 6 speed manual with tan leather and a really good PPI, we wouldn't even be having this conversation I don't think.
I just can't stand silver cars anymore. I can't do it. It's just me.
@andre1969
"I think that's the difference between what you need, and what you want."
What I need: Air Conditioning, some form of automatic transmission, & front wheel drive, Bluetooth, decent acceleration, & backup camera
What I want: AWD, heated seats, sun roof, leather, upgraded radio, strong acceleration,
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
@stickguy
Next punch is for my wife. She works less than 3 miles from home. So we can lease something for her with reasonable mileage terms (12K per year as opposed to the 20K + I drive). I'm going to take the Pilot as my daily driver (15K per year), drive the Prelude more during the warm weather (5K per year), and take the new car when she needs to transport all 3 kids on any given day. On those days, she'd use the Pilot.
Our boys will be in school together all day. Wife will either have the 2 of them in the new car or our daughter. This is part of the problem. For a lot less than the $572 per month I pay for my 328xi, an Accord LX, Civic EX or equivalent would suit our needs perfectly. I'm kinda brand snobby I guess. I'd be willing to lease an LX Accord or Civic. If I'm looking at an Altima, make it an SV. Sonata, I'll look at a turbo. I'm definitely going to look at a Legacy & Forester as well.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
they didn't have PDK back then, stickguy.
shifty, I'm certainly with you. the inherent problems (which you've warned me about for years) are what has kept me away from the 911. But if I ever took the plunge, no way in hell would I bet getting a vert, tip, or silver. I'd only settle for AWD if the car was perfect otherwise and a good price.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Nix the Civic right now...no way in hell that you'll be happy in it! Mine worked well for me because 90% of the time, it was just me in it and I'd still have it honestly if my spinal issues had not gotten worse...it was just too painful to get in and out! But without that major issue, it would still be in our garage.
But you're a different story here. Going from a 3 Series to a Civic? No frickin' way and even if your wife won't hate it, after awhile, you sure will. And with the little ones, the lack of useable space is a no brainer! No, stick with a mid sizer or a small CUV on this next purchase...you'll regret anything else within minutes of driving it home!!!
The Sandman
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
nyccarguy , If you don't get what you want, you will be counting the months until you change it out. Analyse your wants and work your budget from there. You know the drill. Sedan or suv ? Size ? The AWD and heated seats seem the most important on your list. If I were shopping now the CRV EX-L would be on top of my personal list.
Depends on what works for you. When our kids were younger we had a minivan and a Civic. Worked fine for us.
'24 Chevy Blazer EV 2LT
Mr shiftright,
Reach out to the Porsche Doc , he will help you with any questions on the 2001 996. My friend had alot of problems with his used 996 and this guy knows his stuff..
Porsche Doc
Super Moderator
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Overland Park, KS
Posts: 3,552
996 Buyers Guide
There have been a lot of members lately asking the same basic questions pertaining to buying a 911. I have decided to create a buyers guideline for the 911 models to help answer a lot of the questions that are being asked. I will edit it as needed, and also add sections for 993, 964, 930s, etc as I have time. Hopefully this will alleviate the same questions from being asked on the board. Note, I will not include any financial information as far as purchasing prices, etc. It is quite easy to track how cars are selling on your own, and each region of the country/countries will vary anyway.
Pre Purchase Inspection: I can not recommend a PPI enough, unless you are a professional Porsche mechanic. Typically they run from $150-300, and is money well spent. A good PPI will include a printed document that covers inspection of all aspects of the vehicle. They will look for a lot of issues that I will talk about later. Typically the potential buyer will pay for the PPI. This information is solely for the buyer, and the seller should not have access to this information, since he did not pay for the inspection. Make sure you discuss this with the person inspecting the car, so that there are no misunderstandings.
Porsche 996: The 996 version of the Porsche 911 ran from 1999-2005. It was produced in a C2, C4, C4S, as well as the Twin Turbo package.
Upkeep: Every one will experience different labor rates depending on which dealer or independent mechanic you have your car serviced at. Some dealers are quite affordable, while others will charge $250 for an oil change. This will all depend on your area. A good independent Porsche mechanic can save you a lot of money. Make sure you budget maintenance into your overall purchase price of the vehicle. Also, keep in mind that a major failure with a Porsche can cost you a LOT of money, so you may want to look into aftermarket warranties, or Porsche certified vehicles which still have a warranty remaining.
Some of the more common failure/maintenance points:
Rear Main Seal: The C2 and C4 engine is prone to rear main seal leaks. While the internet makes it seem like a huge deal, it is not as common as one might think. It is definitely something to look for when purchasing a 996 though. Cost of replacement can typically run upwards of $1500 since you replace the clutch while you are in there. The updated seal used is a 997 part number. Typically, if the engine does not show a leak at the RMS by 15k miles, then it will not likely occur. The RMS issue does not exist in the turbos, as the engine is the traditional flat six, split case design. I am sure they still occur on occasion, but not nearly as often. When should you replace the seal? When the oil drips on the driveway start to annoy your wife. Will it hurt anything? No, but a severe leak will obviously lead to decreased oil in the engine over time, and could lead to engine failure if you do not add the oil it is losing.
Clutch: Typically clutch life will be around 50-60k miles. This will all depend on the driver of the vehicle though. I have seen clutches go out around 30k miles, and some cars with 70k miles on the original clutch. Cost to replace is roughly $1500 for C2/4. For the turbo, expect around $2500-3000 due to twice the labor rate (18 hours), and a more expensive clutch.
Stiff Clutch Pedal: Typically a very stiff clutch pedal in the C2/4 is indicative of a bad throw out bearing guide arm. There is an updated arm and release bearing which will alleviate this problem. Again, you are looking in that $1500-1600 range to have it replaced.
Tires: Porsche put quite a bit of negative camber and resultant toe into the rear suspension, and along with the weight of the engine being over the rear tires, tire life is much shorter than a standard car. Typically 15k-20k miles out of a set of rear tires is doing very well. Due to the negative camber/toe, the insides will wear out first, while the outside tread will still look good. Front tires will last longer, and typically you will get twice the life of the fronts versus the rears. You can realign the car to a more neutral toe setting in the rear and extend the life a bit.
Brakes: At roughly 30-40k miles you will probably need at least brake pads in the front. They wear almost twice as fast as the rear pads, so typically you can get a set of rears to last per 2 sets of front pads. At 60k miles, expect to replace the rotors at all corners. To replace everything front and back, expect around a $1200 bill.
Oil Changes: Typically the engines will use a Mobil 1 0w-40, 5w-40, or castrol 5w-40 full synthetic oil. Usually it will take roughly 8.5 quarts of oil, and a paper cartridge oil filter (Mahle #OC128). Some dealers will charge $60, some will charge $250 or more!.
Tune-ups: Tune ups are done every 15k miles, with major services done at 30k, 60k, and 90k miles. Minor services can range from $500 for an oil change, pollen filter change, air filter change, and inspection of the vehicle. A major service will include the aforementioned, along with spark plugs, and a much more thorough inspection of every aspect of the car. A major service can easily run over $1200.
Engine: Intermediate shaft failure. I like to call this catastrophic engine failure, because it typically will require a new engine. Some of the C2/4's have had serious failure due to the intermediate shaft failure. Is it all that common? Not really, but it still does occur on occasion. This is where a warranty will save you, as it will typically run well over $10k for a rebuilt engine to be put in the car. Porsche dealers do not even try and fix the engine, they are boxed up and sent back to Germany where they are inspected. Porsche will install a remanufactured engine which should not suffer the same fate. Having talked to some dealer techs recently (as an independent, I have only seen 1 or 2 failures in the last 5 years), the techs have told me that Porsche has replaced a lot of engines that could have been easily repaired at the dealer. There is a fix to the intermediate shaft issue if it is caught early enough. If you hear the engine making an odd ticking at start up (something you don't normally hear), and you shut it down, chances are the IMS can be repaired. Porsche wanted to be known as having great customer service, so they decided replacing the engine was far better for that. Unfortunately for a dealer tech, you get paid more to repair items, than to replace items under a warranty/good faith type claim. UPDATE: LN engineering has come out with a bearing replacement/upgrade kit for these motors. Recent evidence is suggesting that the failure is happening to LOW mileage cars that are not driven enough. Condensation builds up in the oil, seeps past the IMS bearing seal, and erodes the bearing internally. The higher mileage cars are not seeming to be affected by this at all. I recently pulled a bearing out of a 100k mile 996, and it was like new. LN has a ceramic bearing which does not use an outer seal which allows oil to flow freely through the bearing to keep it lubricated and prevent erosion.
Wheel Bearings: I have replaced quite a few wheel bearings now in the 996/boxsters. The sealed bearing will start to growl, like excessive road noise or cupped tires when they go. Since they are a 2 piece sealed system, they will not exhibit typical bearing play in the wheel. Not a huge deal, but it does happen.
996TT: Since a lot of people have started asking about 996TT issues, I will add them to the list:
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
-Cont
996TT: Since a lot of people have started asking about 996TT issues, I will add them to the list:
Maintenance/Common Failures:
Oil Changes: Similar to the 996 in quantity and oil viscosity. 4 drain plugs, one on the engine case, one on the reservoir, and one on each turbo.
Wheel Bearings: (see above)
Clutch Hydraulic Accumulator: When this little gem fails, the clutch pedal becomes very stiff when the car is turned off (ie, you will notice it when starting the car), or the pedal starts to become notchy. The accumulator sits on the clutch slave cylinder and is about $150, and maybe 1.5 hours to replace.
Tune ups: Same service intervals of every 15k miles, though every 30k miles the spark plugs need to be changed. This is about a 5-6 billable hour job as it requires removal of the rear bumper and intercoolers.
Diverter Valves: If you haven't changed them yet, you will. Symptoms are lower boost than normal. The rubber diaphragm in the valves will fail. My advice is to upgrade the 2 units to billet aftermarket units that will not fail. They run about $150 each, and about 1.5 hours to install.
You could read his whole reviews from tires to tune ups. @ German auto forums
996 Buyers Guide
Good luck
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
With all of that in mind, I think I'll stick with my boring Hondas.
@suydam
I'm thinking along those lines also. We've got the Pilot to haul all 5 of us and our gear around. We just need another car for my wife to commute in/run local errands. Part of my slippery slope. I could go Civic/Elantra/Jetta:)
@jayrider
It doesn't matter what I lease, I'll be counting the months anyway:) Definitely sedan. I could go compact because today's compact sedans are as big as mid sizers were 20 years ago. AWD is important, but again, I drove around with snow shoes on my Prelude for 9 years and NEVER got stuck.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Chrysler put on program last week in the parking lot of our office comparing the new 200 to the Accord, Camry, Fusion, Malibu and Sonata. There must of been 20 vehicles there and about 40 folks and they were test driving for about 6 or so hours. Must admit that the 200 looked pretty good in all their different colors. They had a set route and we kept seeing the vehicles driving around. Sure would've enjoyed being in that focus group!
The Sandman
2023 Hyundai Kona Limited AWD (wife) / 2015 Golf TSI (me) / 2019 Chevrolet Cruze Premier RS (daughter #1) / 2020 Hyundai Accent SE (daughter #2) / 2023 Subaru Impreza Base (son)
Great info Brian--and thanks for posting. Most of his info is right on.
Just my two cents, but I do not agree with him that IMS bearing failure is uncommon, nor do I agree that one can adequately rebuild that engine for a mere $10,000.
I'm better off than most folks in that I have excellent Porsche connections and resources.
A PPI is a good idea for any complex, expensive used car because of what I call the "accelerating inverse ratio"----which means that while the resale value of late model luxury cars goes down, the repair costs on them keeps going up (higher labor rates).
When you are buying used, out-of-warranty luxury or performance cars, you are walking on a lake with a thin layer of ice. You have to know what you're doing.
A curiosity with low miles. Icing on the cake is that it could be insured as a classic.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The holy grail. For the right price I would like it.
That dealer has some nice stuff. Some tasty bmws. The dark blue over cinnamon 5 series is gorgeous.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Interesting note about the Passat TDI. A TDI SE w/ Sunroof in my zip code has a TMV of $1015 under invoice. According to my calculations (Michaell & kyfdx's help and lease guide's calculator), If I could get one for $2K under invoice which should be possible, my payment including 6.35% tax would be just at $300 per month. Maybe I'll start test driving next week. I did after all get my "Your lease is up in 90 days" letter from BMW.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Maybe when it's $45k off MSRP.
I've done the "best deal" route before... it never works.
The trick is finding the balance between what you really want and what's a decent deal within your budget.
That's (sorta) how I ended up with the Q50 Hybrid instead of a Tesla.
Hey bud
Check out these 2 VW dealerships. Doc fee's in NY are only 75 dollars. Schenecttady NY area.
You may get close to that 2k mark with one of these dealerships. Make sure you let each dealership know your in talks with both of them and first best price gets your business.
Fuccillo
Martin Nemer VW
I have a good VW dealer in NJ if you want to travel that far. doc's are 299 at NJ dealership.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
@brian125
I'll be sur to check those out. Thanks for the leads. I actually helped a friend lease a Tiguan from Platinum VW on Long Island. They are a small dealership that sells big volumes. They were great to work with and I got my friend a great price. I'll start here in Stamford and work my way out (Westchester, Long Island, Rockland, NJ if I have to).
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I was going to mention the long island dealer they are in Hicksville but thought it is to far a drive.. They also have a excellent Internet dept.
23 Telluride SX-P X-Line, 23 Camry XSE
@brian125
It's actually not that far from me. 50 minutes. My in-laws live in Hicksville. I'd definitely go to LI before NJ. Another benefit to buying/leasing in NY besides the capped doc fee is that all leasing & finance contracts written in NY state include GAP insurance.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
All VW lease contracts have GAP... most captive finance arms do... NOT Toyota.
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Passat Sport
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/oneyear/sedans/1406_2014_volkswagen_passat_sport_arrival/
A reporter is fascinated by this longstanding discussion and has read a lot of posts here. This reporter would like to speak to a chronic car-shopper - one of your guys or gals. If this is you, and you'd like to share your story, please send your daytime contact info to pr@edmunds.com no later than 5 p.m. PT/8 p.m. ET on Monday, June 16, 2014.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
When I was dealing on my Passat Wolfsburg, the offer on the TDI w/sunroof was right at $300 including taxes, so clearly that's very doable.
That Passat Sport model is sharp, but nyc and I are in agreement that we find the 18" Bristol wheels preferable over those 19" Sport wheels. Even with that, I'd consider the Sport model for the seats alone - the black roof is kinda cool too. But you do give up the sunroof for those features. For about the price of that sport model, you could get a sun & nav model.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
I find this humorous:
Sporty bits include foglights with low-speed corner illumination, brushed aluminum-look pedal covers (they’re actually stainless steel), V-Tex leatherette seating surfaces, a rearview mirror, a rear spoiler, and 19-inch Luxor alloy wheels with all-season tires.
foglights and rearview mirror = sporty? really? And are you telling me there is a version of the Passat WITHOUT a rearview mirror??
pedal covers, leatherette, and rear spoiler = OK, I guess we could call that "sporty looking"
19" wheels = well, finally, something that might actually up the sport factor .... oh, but then you went and put on all-season tires. SIGH
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
You should emphasize the A in CCBA.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Paging breld... paging breld!!!
Ha! He is exactly the one I thought of when I saw this post.
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Limited Velvet Red over Wicker Beige
2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha
And you would think they could coax more than 170hp out of the motor for a "sport" version.
Isn't this the same engine tuned to 220hp in Audi form?
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Limited Velvet Red over Wicker Beige
2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha
It is too bad they couldn't apply a "GLI" treatment to the Passat. Seems very doable and I would think it would find an audience.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
I did think of throwing my name and number in the mix.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
The 1.8L in the A3 is 170HP \ 200TQ -
the 2.0 is 220HP \ 258TQ.
Could you give me a little more detail on that? Is that one of the "sign and drive" events, with nothing paid up front except for the first month's payment? And I'm assuming 36 mos / 36k miles as well?
I own a 2008 Passat with the 2.0T engine, and I've driven a new Passat with the 1.8T. There is a noticeable difference, enough so that I would not be happy replacing my old model with a new one. I'm not sure what they were thinking here, but I'll bet this had something to do with their declining market share here in North America.
The way I read it was that VW was making the Passat in a more "American" flavor. That meant decontenting to many people, but you can't really argue with how well sales have gone.
VW has een kown to make the sign and drive --- 42 mos. Gets you out of the warranty. They will adjust the lease to 36 mos at a slightly higher payment.
Well, this was back in early January during their "sign & drive" event. I didn't get into the particulars of that particular deal since I went with a different model, but yes, it was nothing down up front (no down, no deposit, no first payment), 42 months, 12k miles/year. Right around $300/month including taxes (about 8.5% where I'm at!).
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
When I joined edmunds in 05 I thought I had a problem, buying cars in 05, 06, 08, 09, 11, 12 & 13. But with @breld joining the group, I now realize I simply brought the proverbial knife to a gun fight. Thanks to breld for the liberating therapy. And congrats on that 5er.
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 03 Montero Ltd
thinking with the 1.8? Mostly that it was a vastly better entry level motor than the 2.5l 5 cylinder. Compared to that engine, it is quicker, smoother, and way better MPG. and important to family buyers, uses RUG.
they have 2 upgrade engines if the 1.8 isn't enough for you.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I'm a big fan of that 1.8T - of the reasons I moved on to the 535i, the engine was not one of them by any means. I did start getting used to putting it in sport mode, which provided a quicker response with the throttle. I thought the acceleration was pretty darn good, considering the payoff in gas mileage.
The TDI does seem to be the fan favorite among buyers - besides the extra torque and MPG, it adds a character to the car that isn't found otherwise in that segment (at least until Mazda gets their act together). Funny enough, it seems to me the 6-cyl is the least desirable (just from what I notice on the road).
nyccarguy will surely provide some great insight as he test drives both engines in the Passat.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
The Passat TDI leases are even better, this month.. VW just raised the residuals on all TDI models by 3% for June..
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